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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 10 Feb 2000

Meeting date: Thursday, February 10, 2000


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE


STUC Conference

1. Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what reports it has received on the recent conference of trade unions and trade union councils in the Highlands and Islands. (S1O-1115) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): My colleague, Ross Finnie, attended the Scottish Trades Union Congress Highlands and Islands conference on 29 January and addressed delegates on the priorities of the Scottish Executive for the Highlands and Islands. I believe that the conference was highly successful and demonstrated the welcome recognition by the STUC of the important and distinct issues facing the Highlands and Islands.

Rhoda Grant:

Does the minister agree that the best way of encouraging businesses to invest in the Highlands and Islands is to create a climate in which they have confidence in the skills and abilities of workers, and that the best way of encouraging workers to stay in the Highlands is to ensure that employers, particularly in the service sector, recognise the benefits of having a well-paid and well-motivated work force?

Mr Morrison:

I agree with Rhoda Grant. We should certainly be building on the excellent skill base that exists in the Highlands and Islands. There is a climate of change in the Highlands; it is a vibrant place in which to live and work and it is enjoying pleasant times at the moment.

Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):

Has Mr Morrison or his colleague, the Minister for Health and Community Care, recently met representatives of Highland health unions? If so, is the Minister for Health and

Community Care concerned about the fact that 40 per cent of workers at Raigmore hospital have not yet received their pay award for last year, never mind this year? If she is concerned, what will she do to deal with that situation?

The question is to Mr Morrison.

Mr Morrison:

As the matter does not fall within my portfolio, I have not met officials from Raigmore hospital or from Highland Health Board. I would appreciate it if Mr Ewing would put his question in writing to my colleague, Susan Deacon. I have no doubt that she will give him a full response.


Home Office (Meetings)

2. Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive when it last met representatives of the Home Office and what matters were discussed. (S1O-1095) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The Scottish Executive is in regular contact with the Home Office on a wide range of issues.

Shona Robison:

As part of the discussions with the Home Office on the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, what views did the Scottish Executive give on the introduction of a more expensive and demeaning voucher system to replace the cash payments system, which worked well in Scotland?

Iain Gray:

The consultation and discussions on the implementation of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 took place in the lead-up to the passage of that legislation at Westminster. The legislation deals with a reserved matter and was already under way when this Parliament was formed, as the First Minister said in this chamber last June. The representations were, therefore, not made by the Scottish Executive; they were made in 1998 by the then Secretary of State for Scotland.

What discussion took place on the provision of accommodation for asylum seekers? Has the Home Office approached private contractors to bid for accommodation for asylum seekers in Scotland?

Iain Gray:

The arrangements to which Mr Gallie refers, as he indicated in his question, are a matter for the Home Office. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and all local authorities have been involved in discussions with the Home Office regarding the possibility of providing accommodation for asylum seekers under the planned dispersal. The Home Office has also held discussions with potential private sector providers throughout the United Kingdom.

Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):

Does

the minister accept that, while they are here, asylum seekers will be part of the community in Scotland, and that few Scots and even fewer MSPs would want them to live at 30 per cent below the minimum subsistence level or to be stigmatised by a voucher system? When he next meets the Home Secretary, will the minister stress to him the views of the Scottish Parliament, and inform him that, if he continues to impose these restrictions over the heads of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people, he will be of no assistance whatever to those of us in Scotland who want devolution to work?

Iain Gray:

Scotland has a proud record of welcoming and giving hospitality to those who seek asylum on our shores. It is the Scottish Executive's wish that that continue. The best way in which we can do that is to ensure that we play a full and proper part in the national scheme that is being administered by the Home Office. However, as we announced in this Parliament, we will review the operation of the new arrangements 18 months after they come into force. That will give us the information that we need to discuss with the Home Office the way in which the scheme is operated.


Voluntary Sector

3. Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what recognition and support is being given to the voluntary sector to ensure that its work is able to continue and be developed over the coming year. (S1O-1080) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): The Scottish compact, which sets out the Executive's commitment to recognising the value of the voluntary sector, was endorsed by the Scottish Parliament on 3 November. The compact is being implemented across the Executive, along with associated good practice guidance for departments.

Tricia Marwick:

If the Executive's policy and the much-vaunted compact are so successful, can the minister explain why local authorities are having to decide which voluntary sector projects should be cut? Will she explain why Fife Council is being forced to choose between East Fife Women's Aid, the Drug and Alcohol Project in Leven, the Fife Racial Equality Council, and Fife Furniture Stockpile for funding next year?

Jackie Baillie:

As Tricia Marwick will appreciate, there is a 3.4 per cent increase in revenue funding for local government in 2000-01. It is for local councils to establish their priorities for that expenditure, but I strongly encourage them to ensure that the voluntary sector is adequately funded at a local level.

Tricia Marwick:

Is the minister aware that in most local authorities in Scotland, the restraints and pressures that have been placed on their budgets by the Minister for Finance mean that there is a shortfall in the amount of money that is available to the voluntary sector? She says one thing here, but the reality—

That is enough. We have heard the question.

Jackie Baillie:

We have worked closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities in developing the guidance and in ensuring that it is implemented on the ground. We do not want the voluntary sector to bear the brunt of any changed priority expenditure decisions that are made by local government.


Amputations

4. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will issue guidelines preventing the amputation of healthy limbs. (S1O-1089) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): It is for individual surgical consultants to assess each patient, in consultation with psychiatrists and other experts in the field, before undertaking any surgical procedures. It will be for each trust, in consultation with its ethics committee, to reach properly informed decisions.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:

Whatever the circumstances of mental anguish that give rise to requests for amputations of healthy limbs as a cure for psychiatric problems, does the minister agree that such operations should not be carried out merely on the judgment of an individual surgeon?

Susan Deacon:

As I indicated in my earlier answer, I would expect decisions in such cases to be taken in consultation, not only with a range of health professionals, but formally with national health service trusts. As we know, the case in question was unusual and sensitive, which is why it was considered by Forth Valley Acute Hospitals NHS Trust ethics committee. Because I want to ensure that we have effective procedures across the country, I have asked the chief medical officer to liaise with the medical directors of all NHS trusts in Scotland to ensure that robust procedures are in place at a local level to consider similar cases.


Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food(Meetings)

To ask the Scottish Executive when the Minister for Rural Affairs last met the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and what issues they discussed. (S1O-1104)

The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson):

Ross Finnie is in London meeting the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, as well as the Northern Ireland Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development and representatives of the Welsh Assembly Secretary for Agriculture and the Rural Economy. The agenda for the meeting covers a range of issues of concern to farmers in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. My last meeting with the MAFF Minister for Fisheries and the Countryside was in Brussels in December.

Mr McGrigor:

I thank the minister for his reply. When he next meets the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, will he discuss the issue of farmers' incomes, which have fallen to the lowest level since 1930 and average about £75 a week? Will he ask him whether he agrees with the principles of the common agricultural policy as laid down in article 39(b) of the Treaty of Rome, which are designed to ensure

"a fair standard of living for the agricultural population, particularly by raising the individual earnings of persons engaged in agriculture"?

Mr Home Robertson:

I have no doubt that in London just now Ross Finnie will be discussing those points with Nick Brown and his colleagues.

I recognise that Scottish farming faces serious problems, although it must be said that Scottish farmers have the benefit of £500 million of taxpayers' support every year. It cannot be said that lack of taxpayers' money is causing the problem.

On agri-monetary compensation, Scottish farmers received £33 million last year and they will certainly get £13 million again this year. It is possible to get more from UK resources but, under that mechanism, 85 per cent of any extra support for British farmers would have to be paid for by British taxpayers because of the arrangements made by Margaret Thatcher in Fontainebleau some years ago.

Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):

Will the minister say whether the discussions will cover payments to our hard- pressed farmers for compensation for the effects of the introduction and fluctuation of the euro? Given that the European Union is prepared to release many millions of pounds, provided that the UK Government matches that money, is the minister demanding, as Scottish farmers have requested, that the UK Government release the matched funding? Is the Executive doing enough to represent Scotland or, like Alun Michael in Wales, should the minister and his boss be considering their positions?

Mr Home Robertson:

I have already indicated that Scottish farmers have £500 million of support from public sources. There are mechanisms for agri-monetary compensation, which was paid last year. At least £13 million will be paid in the current year. There is scope for extra payment. As I said to Mr McGrigor, because of the deal entered into by the lamented Margaret Thatcher, at least 85 per cent of any extra money has to be funded by the British taxpayer.


Health Service (Hospital Beds)

7. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive what is the total number of beds currently in use at Craig Dunain and the total number of beds that will be available at the new Craig Phadrig. (S1O-1114) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): There are at present 134 beds in Craig Dunain hospital. The same number of beds will be provided for mental health patients in the new facility at Craig Phadrig and in new community-based facilities in Inverness.

I thank the minister for her answer. Will she reassure me that the same standard of quality care will be maintained at the new establishment?

Susan Deacon:

I am pleased to give that assurance. I hope that, in many cases, an improved standard of care will be offered to individuals, who will now be housed in modern, high-quality facilities, as befits a modern health service. It is time that we ensured that those who are mentally ill are housed in the proper locations, in our communities where possible, and are taken out of long-stay Victorian institutions, in which they have been far too often in the past.


Drug Abuse and Street Crime (Aberdeen)

8. Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what arrangements will be made for liaison between the new drugs enforcement agency and Grampian police in order to tackle the problems of drug abuse and street crime in Aberdeen. (S1O-1120) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): That will be a matter for the director of the Scottish drugs enforcement agency and the chief constable of Grampian police to determine once the director of the SDEA is appointed and the agency is duly established.

Lewis Macdonald:

Is the minister aware of recent vicious attacks, in broad daylight, on pensioners in Aberdeen? Does he share my concern that those random and heartless assaults are related to the increasing supply of hard drugs in the city? Does he agree that the best way of protecting our pensioners is to tackle the root cause of the problems by cutting off the supply of

those drugs?

Mr Wallace:

Yes, I am aware that there have been a number of particularly vicious assaults in the streets of Aberdeen, some of them on vulnerable and elderly people. Robbery to obtain money for drugs seems to have been the motive for those crimes—crimes that are to be particularly deplored. am assured by Grampian police that the current vigorous action by the force to arrest those dealing in drugs will continue. I am advised that further initiatives by the force against drug-related crime are being planned and will be put in place within a few weeks. Although it is important that we attack the availability and supply of drugs, I am sure that Mr Macdonald will agree that a strategy that embraces prevention, treatment and rehabilitation to cut demand is an important part of our overall approach.

Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

Is the minister aware that police officers in Grampian have the heaviest case loads of any force in Scotland, that there are fewer officers per head of population in Grampian than in almost any other police force and that the north-east force has the second lowest funding in Scotland? What action does the Scottish Executive propose to take to alleviate those problems of lack of manpower and chronic underfunding?

Mr Wallace:

Ms McGugan will be aware that the deployment of the resources made available to the Grampian police force is a matter for the chief constable. However, I have received representations from the Grampian police board in recent weeks, and my colleague Angus MacKay, the Deputy Minister for Justice, has agreed to meet the police board when he is in Aberdeen next month, when he will no doubt address those matters.

Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con):

The original question referred to the relationship between the drugs enforcement agency and Grampian police force. We know that individuals trained in drugs enforcement are to be shifted from Grampian police force into the DEA. What can the minister offer us today in the way of firm support for the police, so that the force can train people in order to restaff itself?

Mr Wallace:

Mr Davidson is probably aware that the resources that the Executive is making available to tackle drugs are to ensure not only that top-quality officers are engaged in the Scottish drugs enforcement agency, but that there will be an opportunity for restaffing in the various police forces around Scotland. That will have to be done in a structured way, because it will not be in anyone's interests to deplete any force— Grampian or any other—of its main officers all at the one time.

Those matters have been the subject of consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland. As I have indicated, bringing the SDEA into being and staffing it will be done in close consultation with and partnership between Scotland's eight police forces and the SDEA.


Population Change (Highlands and Islands)

9. Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what statistical information it has for population change in the Highlands and Islands over the past five years. (S1O-1119) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): The Registrar General estimates that, between 1993 and 1998, the population of the Highlands and Islands fell by 1,200, a reduction of 0.3 per cent.

Maureen Macmillan:

It is a bit disappointing that the population has fallen over the past five years. Can those statistics be disaggregated? Can the minister say which parts of the Highlands and Islands are losing population? What strategy does the Executive have for redressing that? Are there any projected population trends for the Highlands and Islands?

Mr Morrison:

There is an obvious reason why the population in the Highlands and Islands has decreased, which is that the number of military personnel in the Highlands has been greatly reduced in recent years. The general trend is that there will be an increase in population across the Highlands and Islands—it is estimated at about

1.6 per cent—which runs against national trends. Let us take the example of Skye. In the 1840s, the population peaked at 24,000. For reasons that are well documented, that figure plummeted to 6,000. In recent years, the population has increased to some 10,000. Areas that are suffering from depopulation are my constituency—the western isles—and Caithness. [Interruption.]

There is too much chattering on my right, if I may say so.


Mental Health

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will report on the summit for mental health interests recently held in Edinburgh. (S1O-1130)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon):

A full report of the proceedings of the summit meeting will be made widely available. Iain Gray and I attended the meeting, which was also attended by more than 30 organisations, representing a wide range of mental

health interests and services. We discussed constructively how we could work together to promote positive mental health and to improve services to people who need help. I am pleased to report that the summit endorsed the Executive's proposal to establish a new mental health support group for Scotland.

Pauline McNeill:

Does the minister agree that we have made remarkable progress in moving away from outdated views that stigmatise mental illness? Does she also agree that, for too long, mental health services have been a poor relation to acute services? Does the Executive have any short-term or long-term plans that she can outline to Parliament this afternoon?

Susan Deacon:

I agree that, for too long, mental health problems have been stigmatised and that mental health provision has been treated as a cinderella service. That was the theme of the summit. In discussion with organisations interested in mental health, we considered ways in which we could de-stigmatise mental illness. There is still far too much fear in society about illnesses such as schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease. We must work together as politicians, with the public and the various representative bodies, to ensure that we change the situation.

We will press on with the implementation of the mental health services framework and we will ensure that the pace of implementation is accelerated so that we make positive progress on those matters.

Are the organisations and the minister satisfied with the progress that is being made on the mental health framework that was published by her predecessor in the Scottish Office, Sam Galbraith?

Susan Deacon:

One of the positive elements of last week's discussion was that everyone was united in their support for the mental health framework. We all agreed that there was a need for us to work together and to work hard to ensure that the framework is fully implemented. One of the main requirements for doing that is effective joint working between the national health service, local authorities and the voluntary sector. Many of the discussions identified practical steps that could be taken to accelerate the pace of implementation.


Care of the Elderly

11. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve care of the elderly. (S1O-1109) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): We have a wide range of plans to encourage the delivery of integrated, person- centred health and social care services for older people.

Mary Scanlon:

Does the minister agree that the 2,000 patients who occupy blocked NHS beds due to problems with social work funding are seriously disadvantaged? Does he agree that a two-tier system has been created under which those who can pay access care, whereas those who cannot pay are stuck in vital NHS beds?

Iain Gray:

No one thinks that a delay in someone's discharge is acceptable. All local authorities and health boards are working together to reduce those delays. One problem is, as I have suggested to Mrs Scanlon before, that there is a significant lack of consistent information across Scotland on the matter. We have set up a pilot project to establish the exact position. The pilot project has already shown that there are 40 different reasons for a delayed discharge, which is defined as a discharge delayed for more than two days. The situation that Mrs Scanlon referred to is only one of the reasons for delayed discharge.

Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP):

It is almost a year since the report by the Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly was presented to Westminster. Given that most of the recommendations can now be implemented by the Scottish Parliament, will the minister explain which areas of the report are giving him difficulty? Does he agree that the delay in the implementation of, for example, charges for personal care and the three-month disregard means that thousands of elderly people are being denied the dignity and security that should be their right in a decent and civilised society?

Iain Gray:

On 2 December, I responded to exactly the points that Mrs Ullrich has just made. She was in the chamber at the time—perhaps her attention was elsewhere. The report by the Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly makes several recommendations, including two key recommendations. The first recommendation is for a national commission to ensure consistent standards of care. We are undertaking to implement that in legislation, which we expect to bring before the Parliament in the autumn. Its other recommendation, which was about the funding of long-term care, will be dealt with in the spending review that has already begun. That was the position put forward on 2 December. Of the two key recommendations, one is under way and the other will be dealt with as part of a process that has already begun.

Does the minister accept responsibility for the £535,000 of cuts that have been recommended for the home help service for Glasgow's elderly residents—cuts that are due to a lack of funding from the Executive?

Iain Gray:

The grant-aided expenditure guidelines for the funding for social work services

this year give a figure of £1.1 billion. That figure will increase by a further £43 million in the next financial year. Of that funding, 80 per cent goes towards community care and 80 per cent of the community care budget is spent on older people. Significant and increasing resources have been put into that area.


Air Freight

12. Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to encourage and facilitate air freight into Scotland. (S1O-1082) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The Scottish Executive recognises that the continuing growth and development of air freight is vital to the Scottish economy. The enterprise networks are working with Scottish airports, Scottish industry and freight carriers to build on the strong growth seen in air freight traffic over the past 10 years.

Mr MacAskill:

Does the minister accept that an opportunity exists for increased freight and refuelling business for Inverness airport, if it is open for 24 hours a day? Assuming that he accepts that, will he provide additional financial assistance to ensure that Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd can pursue that economic opportunity for the betterment of the area?

Henry McLeish:

We hope that HIAL and other airports in Scotland will seek to maximise their freight traffic. We are seeing real success stories in every part of Scotland. I want to build on that—it is vital that we do. Tremendous effort is being put in, not only by the international carriers, but by all the airports. I would like to think that HIAL will develop as much as it can. The Scottish Executive and the whole community in the north of Scotland will be willing to assist.

Given the importance of air traffic control to air freight, what representations is the Executive making to Her Majesty's Government to make a decision on an early start?

Henry McLeish:

That is a good question. We all want a solution. It is vital for Ayrshire, for Scotland and for the United Kingdom that the project gets under way. We believe that things are moving forward. There is a very good two-centred settlement. It will provide safeguards for jobs and pensions and, of course, it will provide a state-ofthe- art facility in Scotland for the years ahead.

Part of the question was about air freight. In that same part of Scotland, a brilliant success story is unfolding every year. In 1992, Prestwick dealt with 16,000 tonnes of cargo; in 1999, it dealt with 56,000 tonnes of cargo; and the projection for 2005 is for 100,000 tonnes of cargo. In terms of the development in air traffic control and the increase in cargo, Ayrshire is doing spectacularly well. We must work as an Executive—and, I hope, as a Parliament—to ensure that that success continues.


Prison Service (Dungavel House)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether the Scottish Prison Service has had any discussions with potential buyers of the former prison at Dungavel House. (S1O-1128)

No.

Linda Fabiani:

Can the minister confirm the article in The Scotsman on 25 January, which said that Premier Prison Services had shown interest in purchasing the prison? Is he aware that there would be a public outcry if Dungavel were sold to a private company for prison use?

Mr Wallace:

I am not in the business of confirming any article in The Scotsman. As for the disposal of prisons, sales agents have been appointed, an advertising campaign has been agreed on and, after offering properties on the open market, the agents will advise on which offer should be accepted. The properties will be sold to the highest bidders, who will decide on the future use of the sites.

Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con):

Does the minister agree that the unique and successful rehabilitation regime at Penninghame prison in Galloway will be greatly missed after its closure in March? That closure will leave the prison service—certainly in the south of Scotland—very much the poorer.

Order. The question was specifically about Dungavel, and not about anything else.

Pity.


Victims of Crime

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are being taken to provide detailed and comprehensive assistance to families who are victims of crime. (S1O-1131)

The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie):

In my evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee in August last year, I advised that my officials and officials at the justice department were working on a joint paper to consider how services to victims could be improved. As a result of that exercise, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and the Scottish Executive justice department are in the process of commissioning a

feasibility study, to be conducted by management consultants, which will examine existing and planned arrangements and consider models for the delivery of better, integrated and comprehensive services for victims, witnesses and bereaved next of kin in cases reported to the procurator fiscal.

Paul Martin:

I thank the Lord Advocate for his positive reply. Taking into consideration the circumstances of Margaret and Jim Watson, who so tragically lost their son Alan and daughter Diane, does he agree that the present framework for victims of crime is inadequate, and will he consult such families to ensure a framework that will deliver for victims?

The Lord Advocate:

I understand that Mr Martin has already written to the Minister for Justice on this matter, and a very full reply will be given. The feasibility study that I mentioned is only one of the many initiatives being introduced to improve services for victims and witnesses. In December 1999, the Minister for Justice announced an additional £2 million over three years to extend the witness service throughout Scotland.

Furthermore, the Crown Office has translated many leaflets into ethnic minority languages. It is developing information leaflets for rape victims and next of kin in homicide cases and it is planning to undertake a local pilot scheme to examine the provision of victim and witness support in serious cases and cases involving bereavement. All those measures will involve consulting people with a genuine interest and victims of crime. We will continue to listen to the experience of people such as Mr and Mrs Watson; we will consider what lessons can be learned from that tragic case and how the system can be better improved.


Law Review (Foreshore and Sea Bed)

15. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress the Scottish Law Commission has made in its review of the law of the foreshore and sea bed and when it is expected to submit its report to the Scottish Executive. (S1O-1094) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Scottish Law Commission has now completed its consideration of the detailed content and process of the review. It will now begin reviewing the full range of relevant Scottish law and consider experience in other countries. The commission will then develop a discussion paper and, after consultation, will publish its final recommendations by the end of 2002.

Tavish Scott:

Does the minister accept the need for the Executive to examine the functions of the Crown Estate in Scotland and to seek to influence and control some of those activities? Does he recognise the unfairness of the Crown's role, when ports such as Lerwick in my constituency currently have to pay the Crown Estate for dredging the sea bed to improve the facilities? Furthermore, Scottish salmon farmers, in addition to paying corporation tax, are also paying a production tax to the Crown.

Mr Wallace:

Like any other landowner, the Crown Estate in Scotland will be subject to any laws passed by the Scottish Parliament in respect of its land and property. However, as Mr Scott will be aware, the Crown Estate's functions and the statutory position of the Crown Estate commissioners are reserved to Westminster. As a result, he may wish to take the matter up with his Westminster MP.

George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):

Is the minister aware of the continuing dispute between Tarbert harbour authority and the Crown Estate commissioners over the rental of the foreshore and sea bed? Furthermore, can he confirm that the Scottish Law Commission's review might have an effect on the outcome of that dispute?

Mr Wallace:

I am certainly aware of the dispute, not least because of Mr Lyon's persistent representations on the matter. As issues concerning the law of the foreshore and sea bed are exceptionally complex, the review will take some time. The rights and privileges of the Crown Estate will undoubtedly form part of that review, but it would be premature for me to say anything about the review's outcome. I repeat that any changes the Parliament makes to the law of property that affects land and property will apply to the Crown Estate as to any other landowner in Scotland.


Prison Service (Trade Unions)

16. Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive when ministers last met representatives of the Scottish Prison Service trade union side and what matters they discussed. (S1O-1106) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): On 5 November, when I discussed our decision to redistribute £13 million of SPS savings within the justice programme.

Roseanna Cunningham:

Will the minister confirm that, with that sole exception and despite repeated requests, he has refused to meet representatives of the SPS trade union side? Is he aware that the trade union side wishes to discuss with him a wide range of concerns that go well beyond the issue of closures? Does he agree that such a refusal is an astonishing response from a

Labour-led Administration? Is such a refusal to meet union leaders now Executive policy?

Mr Wallace:

I rather suspect that Ms Cunningham drafted her question on the basis of an inaccurate report in The Herald this week. That shows why one should not confirm newspaper reports. The report said that I have refused totally ever to meet the SPS trade union side; my earlier answer explained that I had such a meeting, little more than three months ago. We had a very good and constructive discussion on the redistribution of the £13 million that was being taken from the SPS to be distributed elsewhere in the justice department's programme. The discussions were frank and useful. In no way would I, or indeed any of my fellow ministers, wish to insult the trade union side of the SPS as suggested by Ms Cunningham.

Roseanna Cunningham:

Notwithstanding that answer, does the minister realise that the position of the leaders of the Scottish Prison Officers Association and other trade unions is that he has rebuffed consistently their requests for a meeting to talk not about the specific issue that he refers to, but about general issues? They have wide- ranging concerns beyond the closure issue and he has point-blank refused to meet them. He refers all requests to the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service.

Mr Wallace:

As convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, Ms Cunningham will appreciate that many of the detailed matters that the trade union side wishes to discuss can be discussed far more appropriately with the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service, who has executive, day-to-day responsibility for the operation of the service.

I have never ruled out any future meetings with the bosses of the SPS trade union side. I rather think that Ms Cunningham has worked herself up into a bit of a frenzy on the basis of false information in the article in The Herald.

Another try, Alex Fergusson?

Alex Fergusson:

If the minister were to meet the trade union side, does he agree that one of its principal concerns would be that the unique rehabilitation regime—[Applause.] Thank you, ladies and gentleman. Does the minister agree that the unique regime that is currently in force at Penninghame will be greatly missed after the prison's closure in March? Does he also agree that the prison service in the south of Scotland will be much the poorer for that closure?

That one is in order.

Mr Wallace:

I congratulate Mr Fergusson on his ingenuity.

I pay tribute to the staff at Penninghame open prison, where there has been a good regime. Penninghame was a very successful prison, but as I have explained on a number of occasions, there is considerable overcapacity in open prisons in Scotland. There are three such prisons and the relevant prisoner numbers—for obvious reasons, not all prisoners can go to open prisons—suggest that two would be far more suitable in terms of efficiency in running the prison service. The decision, which was taken by the Scottish Prison Service, was difficult, but it was thought that there was a need to rationalise from three open prisons to two. Regrettably, Penninghame has had to close, but that in no way detracts from the good and valuable work that it has done in past years.


Food Labelling

18. Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W3200 by Ross Finnie on 24 December 1999, what plans it has developed, in the light of the responses received during the consultation exercise that ended on 14 December 1999, to ensure that all meat products are clearly labelled with their country of origin. (S1O-1129) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): Following consideration of responses to the consultation exercise, the Scottish Executive has issued new guidance notes on place-of-origin labelling. That guidance has been issued to interested parties and to local authority environmental health departments, which are responsible for enforcing food labelling legislation in Scotland. The new guidance emphasises that practice must change so that origin information on food labels, including labels on all meat products, should be clear and unambiguous.

Mr Munro:

Does the minister agree that in spite of the National Farmers Union's best efforts on behalf of its members, little has been achieved over the past year in this regard? Is he aware that many of the major suppliers in this country supply meat products that are imported and do not show clearly the country of origin?

Mr Home Robertson:

That is precisely why we have taken this initiative. We are very concerned about the problem of confusing or misleading labelling of place of origin on foods. That is why we need clearer guidelines. The Scotch quality assured pork label denotes pork that comes from farms with high standards of welfare. Anything without that mark may well be imported. Consumers who want quality food from farms with high welfare standards would be well advised to buy British. If they want the very best, they should buy Scottish.