Skip to main content

Language: English / Gàidhlig

Loading…
Chamber and committees

Plenary, 29 Apr 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, April 29, 2004


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE


Environment and Rural Development


United Kingdom Sustainable Development Strategy

To ask the Scottish Executive how Scottish perspectives will be integrated into the review of the UK sustainable development strategy. (S2O-2197)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

Last Wednesday we launched a consultation called "Taking it on: developing UK sustainable development strategy together". We are working with the United Kingdom Government, the National Assembly for Wales Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly Administration to create a new UK-wide strategic framework for sustainable development. We will also develop a separate Scottish strategy to translate the framework into action.

Obviously, sustainable development matters to the Scottish Executive and is of great importance to the people of Scotland and the wider world. All of us have a part to play in making sustainable development a reality. I urge everyone to ensure that Scottish perspectives are understood by taking part in the consultation that we announced.

Mr Macintosh:

Does the minister agree that, in addition to environmental issues, social justice and education lie at the heart of a successful sustainable development policy? Does the minister also agree that, if we are to build support for sustainability, the way in which to do that is by improving the quality of life in our disadvantaged communities? Does he further agree that policies like our eco schools initiative need to be developed as a priority?

Ross Finnie:

I wholly agree with the thrust of Kenneth Macintosh's remarks. I know that he takes an interest in the issue. Increasingly, eco schools are playing a leading role in the matter. The interest at primary and secondary school level has increased over recent years and the Executive is giving every encouragement to their further development. I believe that that is important if the upcoming generation is to understand better the imperative need for us to take seriously sustainable development.

Shiona Baird (North East Scotland) (Green):

The minister will be aware that during the recess the UK Sustainable Development Commission published a report that posed 20 challenges on sustainable development to the Government. As the majority of those challenges involve areas that are the responsibility of the Scottish Executive, is the Executive prepared to take up the commission's challenges and respond formally about how it will act in response to each of the challenges?

Ross Finnie:

As the member will be aware, we are fully engaged with the commission and with its two Scottish commissioners. We try to ensure that they are actively involved and engaged in any initiatives that are promoted by the Scottish Executive. The decision as to whether we will make a formal response is one that we have yet to take. The challenges cover very different areas. I can assure the member, however, that we take seriously the long list. The member rightly said that there are a large number of challenges that we have to meet. The challenges are before the Scottish Executive; indeed, they are before me as the minister with responsibility and we will be processing them.


Deer (Culls)

2. Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will direct the Deer Commission for Scotland to suspend any further mass cull of deer and from whom it has sought advice on the issues involved, other than its own advisers and the Deer Commission for Scotland. (S2O-2148)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

Ministers will consider shortly a report on the conduct of the recent culls at Glen Feshie and in particular the role of the Deer Commission for Scotland. This follows a meeting with the Scottish Gamekeepers Association. The report will draw on advice from a number of sources including the state veterinary service and the Food Standards Agency Scotland.

We shall be reflecting on the conclusions that are to be drawn in the light of that report. However, given the statutory obligation that is placed on the Deer Commission for Scotland by the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 to take action where it is satisfied that serious damage could be caused to agriculture, woodlands or the natural heritage, or where there is a risk to public safety, the options available are unlikely to include the ordering of a suspension of culling.

Fergus Ewing:

I think that the minister is aware that nearly 900 deer have been culled in Glen Feshie, partly under the use of emergency powers. I think that he is also aware of possible further culls that are planned in other areas of the Scotland. The issue has raised serious concerns about whether the culling was carried out in a proper and humane way.

Can I put to the minister a suggestion that I intimated to the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development last week for a way to break the impasse between the Deer Commission and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association? I suggest that the minister appoints a committee, comprised of three people, one of whom would be nominated by the Scottish Gamekeepers Association, another of whom would be nominated by the Deer Commission and the third of whom would be an independent person nominated by the minister after consultation and who would act as a chair. The committee would have the remit of examining what happened at Glen Feshie, the lessons to be learned and the issue of deer management. Will the minister give serious consideration to that suggestion as a means of breaking the logjam on this issue, which is of great concern to many people in Scotland?

Ross Finnie:

I recognise the constructive contributions that Fergus Ewing has made to the consideration of this matter, but regret his tendency to refer to the situation as a "mass cull." If he examines the numbers, he will agree that a comparison between the number of deer that have been culled during the process that we are discussing and the 700,000 or so deer that are culled each year demonstrates that he is displaying a slightly hyperbolic tendency. However, he has made a serious contribution.

As I said in my original answer, I want to see the report that we have called for. That report will inform me and other ministers of the nature of the cull and, in particular, will address some of the issues that have been raised about how that cull was carried out. I look forward to advice from the veterinary people and from the Food Standards Agency.

Once I have reflected on that, Fergus Ewing's suggestion will still be on the table. I can undertake only to consider it along with the options that I have for responding to the findings of the report. I am anxious that the statutory obligations of the Deer Commission, given to it under the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996, be carried out properly. It is important that ministers are satisfied of that.

Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

Does the minister agree that red deer herds are an important and historic part of Scottish national heritage and that deerstalking and deer watching bring in money for tourism? Does he agree that this noble animal should not be reduced to the status of vermin because some people want to save money on fencing?

Ross Finnie:

If I thought that Fergus Ewing was indulging his hyperbolic tendency, Mr McGrigor is most certainly indulging his. Mr McGrigor should be careful when talking about the occasions on which the Deer Commission uses its emergency powers and the level to which it uses them. It does not do so frequently. The Deer Commission spends a great deal of its time trying to engage with landowners to arrange management agreements for the maintenance of sensible numbers of deer consistent with our environment, bearing in mind the danger to that environment that deer can pose.

There is no suggestion that the Deer Commission, or myself and other ministers, do not regard deer as being an important species. To say that we or the Deer Commission regard them as vermin is wide of the mark. If the conditions in the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 for imposing a cull are met, that is a different matter. Mr McGrigor should be careful that he does not go too far on that matter.

Is the minister content that there are mechanisms in place to ensure that any deer carcase that has not been gralloched immediately will be condemned as being unfit for human consumption?

Ross Finnie:

That important point is why, in calling for a separate report, we have sought not only veterinary advice but the advice of the Food Standards Agency. We wish to be informed as to how the cull was carried out and how the animals were transported. That will be an important consideration in assessing the impact of that cull.


Peatlands (Damage)

To ask the Scottish Executive what proportion of climate change emissions is from damaged peatlands and what action it is taking to restore damaged bogs. (S2O-2183)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

There are no data available specifically on emissions from damaged peatlands.

The Scottish Executive supports the maintenance and restoration of peatlands through Scottish Natural Heritage. SNH's natural care schemes, together with management agreements with individual owners and occupiers, offer significant levels of support for the management and restoration of peatland habitat. The Executive's agri-environment schemes also support the conservation and management of significant areas of moorland that are composed largely of peatland.

Projects that aim to restore peatlands in Scotland have also benefited from substantial support from the European Commission's LIFE-Nature programme. Those initiatives have received Scottish Executive support, which will continue in future where appropriate.

Eleanor Scott:

As the minister will be aware, it is recognised that although damaged peatlands are a major contributor of carbon emissions, healthy bogs absorb and sequester carbon. The Government target in the UK biodiversity action plans for blanket bog and raised bog is to restore about 500,000 hectares of bog by 2015. Given that it costs about £50 per hectare to restore drained blanket bog, we expect £25 million—or £2.5 million per year—to be spent on bog restoration in the next 10 years. That is more than twice what the Forestry Commission Scotland and Scottish Natural Heritage are spending on such work. What plans does the Executive have to increase those organisations' budgets to accommodate the extra demand for bog restoration?

Ross Finnie:

I underscore the importance that we attach to the matter, but I have to say that every organisation has its own target figure. If the Government were to commit itself to the target figure of every organisation, we would need billions and billions of pounds, which we simply do not have.

It is your target.

Ross Finnie:

There are other priorities. It is simple for the member to say that we should spend money on this, that or the next thing, and it is an interesting proposition. We are committed to working with SNH, the Forestry Commission Scotland and others to restore boglands. We are not flying away from that, and we will devote resources as appropriate.

While recognising the importance of peat bogs, will the minister assure me that the emphasis that is placed on protecting such bogs will not in any way hinder the ambitious plans to build wind farms in my constituency?

Ross Finnie:

On wind farms, I must consider each case on its merits. That is what we do, and I will not give a blanket answer—that is perhaps an unfortunate phrase to use in a discussion on bogs—because there is an issue about the overriding or equal importance that we give to restoring bogs. There must be ways in which that can be achieved, but we are conscious of the issue that the member raises.


Environmental Justice

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making in the pursuit of environmental justice. (S2O-2195)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

We are committed to delivering environmental justice for all Scotland's communities. Our progressive environmental policies are helping us to achieve that by improving everyone's local living environment. Through such policies and initiatives, we are making excellent progress on a broad range of important initiatives, including reductions in the amount of waste that goes to landfill, progress on the strategic environmental assessment, tackling litter, fly-tipping and graffiti, improvements in air quality, reductions in fuel poverty, increases in energy from renewables, the introduction of community wardens and tackling environmental crime.

I am pleased to announce today that we are extending the community environmental renewal scheme, which is funded from Scotland's share of the aggregates levy. The scheme will allocate more than £4 million during the next three years to support projects in communities that are affected by past or present quarrying operations. We are also allocating aggregates levy funding to support a number of other major sustainable development projects, including the planning for people programme that is run by Planning Aid for Scotland to help community groups and voluntary organisations to understand and get involved in the planning system.

Karen Whitefield:

It is essential for the Scottish Executive not only to talk about environmental justice but to deliver it. Does the minister agree that my constituents in the village of Greengairs have seen little environmental justice? It is important for the Scottish Executive to listen carefully to their concerns and to ensure that no further landfill sites blight their area and prevent them from enjoying the environmental justice that so many other communities in Scotland appreciate.

Ross Finnie:

I am well aware of the member's particular and singular interest in the matter. She has consistently taken up cudgels on behalf of her constituents in Greengairs. As she is well aware, we are keen to give every assistance but we also have the problem of the historic establishment of rights in terms of planning law. We are anxious to help, and we are conscious of the plight of her constituents. I hope that the measures that I discussed will be of assistance to them.

Rosie Kane (Glasgow) (SSP):

How can we ensure that the people who live along the route of the very urban M74 northern extension are given environmental justice if the consultation on the road took place in the 1960s, when many of us—or some of us—were children? The Executive would like to start to build the road in the next few years. How can we ensure environmental justice, consultation and democracy?

Ross Finnie:

On the approval of programmes, in terms of consultation and democracy, there will be further consultation on several aspects of that plan. The Executive's aim to achieve the overall extension is a policy objective that was argued during democratic elections. There are individual issues that will arise in the construction and prior to the construction of that road extension that will require consultation, and people who are affected will have every opportunity to express their views.

Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):

Karen Whitefield has cross-party support for her comments on Greengairs. I remind the minister that the First Minister made a promise two years ago to Greengairs and the surrounding villages that there would be no more landfill or opencast sites there. Will he give a commitment to reject the application from Eden Waste Recycling for the ninth landfill site at Greengairs?

I am not about to pronounce on a matter of planning law, which would require proper consideration by Scottish ministers. That would be wholly inappropriate and not in accordance with the law.


Climate Change

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans and resources it has in place to deal with the impacts of climate change. (S2O-2181)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

The Executive is working closely with the UK Government and the UK climate impacts programme to develop a comprehensive adaptation strategy to ensure that Scotland is prepared for the threats that are posed by climate change. Policy development is informed by a number of Executive research publications and by the latest climate change scenarios.

One of the main impacts of climate change on Scotland will be an increased risk of flooding. Our national flooding framework, which was launched last year, forms the cornerstone of our policy for dealing with that. The 2002 spending review substantially increased the resources that are available for flood prevention schemes to £40 million over the period 2003-06.

Mr Ruskell:

I ask the minister how we are to assess whether Scotland's contribution to tackling the root causes of climate change is good or bad if we have no Scottish target for climate change emission reductions and no action plan. Given the Executive's emphasis on impacts rather than prevention, would the Executive consider itself liable to pay compensation in scenarios such as the collapse of Scottish agriculture if the northern conveyor failed?

Ross Finnie:

Gosh, we are into the hyperbolic tendency this afternoon. I really think that that is taking an extreme view.

I do not accept that we are simply into measurements. We have a whole range of policies on energy and shifting the balance. Transport was mentioned earlier and we seek to move towards less being spent on private transport and more being spent on public transport. Energy use reductions and transport reductions are important, but we are not focusing exclusively on that. The action that we are taking across all sectors is doing nothing other than assisting us in pursuing our wish to reduce the impact of climate change in Scotland.


Outdoor Access Code

To ask the Scottish Executive how many copies it plans to publish of the finalised outdoor access code. (S2O-2095)

The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):

Under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, the duty to issue the Scottish outdoor access code rests with Scottish Natural Heritage. SNH has advised that the code will be widely publicised through a range of media such as an access website. It has also advised that it will publish a summary code and leaflets on specific issues.

Alex Johnstone:

Can the minister give me a further guarantee that that action will be sufficient to ensure that all those who choose to access Scotland's rural areas—especially farmland—through the rights that are granted to them under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 will do so in a responsible way and will have the information that is necessary to ensure that they know what responsible means?

Allan Wilson:

Yes. I am glad to welcome Alex Johnstone to the growing number of people who appreciate the rights of responsible access that the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 granted to the Scottish people. Responsible is the operative word. Through the outdoor access code, we will ensure that very clear guidelines are available to people who exercise their rights. They must do so responsibly and take into account land management interests in the process.


Health and Community Care

It is 14:20, so we move to questions on health and community care. Unless my eyes deceive me, Mr Mike Pringle is not here. However, I am obliged to call the question. As Mr Pringle is not here, question 1 falls and we move to question 2.


Waiting Times (General Practitioners)

To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken to reduce GP waiting times. (S2O-2129)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):

In March 2003 I announced funding for the Scottish primary care collaborative. Waiting times have fallen by 36 per cent in the 100 practices taking part in the scheme. A second wave starts this month. All the practices involved are committed to spreading the learning and good practice that ensue.

Dr Murray:

I am pleased to hear that action is being taken to reduce waiting times and hope that the new general practice contract will help to attract more doctors to remain in and to join general practice.

I have received many complaints from constituents about the length of time that they have to wait to see their doctor. I have also been advised by doctors in my constituency that they have problems in obtaining locums. What action is the Executive considering in order to secure locum cover for general practice members who are off sick?

Malcolm Chisholm:

The member raises two issues. Clearly, we believe that the new contract will be entirely helpful in respect of the recruitment and retention of GPs. The member's main point was about waiting. The team-based approach in the contract will help to address that issue. I am interested to hear from Elaine Murray about waiting problems that remain in her constituency, because travelling around Scotland I have been impressed by the major advances that have been made on waiting for appointments at GP practices. Over the past year, there have been amazing falls in waiting times for such appointments, not just in practices in the primary care collaborative but more widely.

I commend to members the primary care collaborative, which I visited and spoke to recently. The collaborative is a team-based approach to care and is looking to redesign the patient service, with the involvement of patients. It is analysing demand, so that it is very patient focused. An amazing amount has already been achieved and more is to come this year.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

I refer the minister to the report "Good Advice Better Health" by the citizens advice bureau in Haddington. The CAB has funded an advice surgeries project and home visiting services. According to the report,

"The Project has enabled many patients to be helped by CAB and of course this has an ongoing effect on their health when they are much happier with their financial situation".

The positive effects of the project were that clients required less GP time and fewer home visits and prescriptions. Unfortunately, the project will receive no more funding. Does the minister agree that this is the very kind of project that would have a direct impact on GP waiting times and take people out of the surgery and back into happier lifestyles?

Malcolm Chisholm:

The project to which the member refers is a good one. As I said, waiting times are falling dramatically even without such initiatives. Clearly, this is a matter for local funding. I know that there are examples of similar projects throughout Scotland. I am pleased that very soon I will launch such an initiative in the north-east Edinburgh local health care co-operative in my constituency. I commend the efforts of the Haddington CAB, but Christine Grahame will agree that initiatives of that kind are matters for local funding.

David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):

Does the minister share my concern about the amount of time that people will have to wait and the distance that they will have to travel to see a GP out of hours in Dumfries and Galloway under the proposed new out-of-hours scheme? Does he agree with the local medical director that that will be a less convenient service for patients? What will he do to ensure that the whole of Dumfries and Galloway is not covered by two doctors, one in Dumfries and one in Stranraer?

Malcolm Chisholm:

I have discussed the issue of out-of-hours care in Dumfries and Galloway with the chair of the Dumfries and Galloway NHS Board. I have not seen the most up-to-date version of the board's plans, but I will examine it in the light of the member's comments.

A new model of care is being developed throughout Scotland, and I know that the subject of out-of-hours care gives rise to concern. Nearly every other aspect of the new GP contract was applauded by the Parliament when the Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Bill was passed. There is a new model for out-of-hours care that is based on using the whole health care team. There is a guarantee about the service that that will deliver and any alternative services will have to be accredited.


National Health Service (Decentralisation)

To ask the Scottish Executive what NHS services are being decentralised to smaller hospitals, general practitioners and primary health care teams. (S2O-2201)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):

NHS services should be provided close to people's homes wherever it is practical and clinically safe to do so. Local chemotherapy clinics and renal dialysis units are examples of a wide range of services that NHS boards are moving from larger acute hospitals to local communities. The new general medical services contract and the development of community health partnerships will also drive forward service developments in primary care.

Karen Gillon:

I thank the minister for his answer. Those are welcome developments. Decentralisation is essential for a constituency such as mine, which has no district general hospital and which covers 600 square miles. A key factor in rolling out the services is the availability of diagnostic services, such as X-ray facilities, that are linked up through modern technology to hospitals. What steps is the minister taking to ensure that such services can be rolled out to rural communities?

Malcolm Chisholm:

An X-ray facility is a good example of the kind of service that can be delivered more locally. I have seen in other parts of Scotland, rather than in Lanarkshire in particular, scanning that was previously done in a hospital centre being done in local communities. There are also examples from Karen Gillon's area, which I have seen, of consultant-led clinics in health centres and anticoagulation services in general practioner practices instead of in hospitals. Moreover, Clydesdale local health care co-operative has invested in more rehabilitation of older people in local GP hospitals. There are many such examples throughout Scotland and everyone should remember those when discussing what is sometimes the opposite movement for more specialist services to go to specialist centres.

Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):

It is welcome to Scottish National Party members and, I am sure, to all members that such decentralisation is taking place. Unfortunately, health boards must also take centralisation measures at this time. Should not the long-overdue report about a national framework for the NHS in Scotland, which the minister announced earlier this week, kick in? Decisions such as that to centralise maternity services in Caithness, as well as decisions about other job dispersals ought to be taken once the framework is in place, not beforehand.

Malcolm Chisholm:

The fact is that, as members will know, we already have a national framework for maternity services, which is called the expert group on acute maternity services—EGAMS. Other work has been done on a national framework—for example, through the white paper last year. We believe that that is a continuing process. That is why we have initiated a further piece of work through a high-level expert group that involves clinicians and patients. The group will report in due course, but that does not mean that the service changes that are being discussed throughout Scotland can be frozen in the meantime. That would not be possible in many cases and it certainly would not be desirable. On maternity services, there is already a framework and that is, of course, one of the documents that I will look at when assessing plans for services that local boards bring.


Diabetes

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to improve diabetes care. (S2O-2211)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):

We are making good progress in implementing the Scottish diabetes framework through a programme of initiatives to improve services. That will help us to meet the recommendations from NHS Quality Improvement Scotland's review of its diabetes standards.

Karen Whitefield:

I am grateful to the minister for his answer. The minister will be aware that the "Scottish Diabetes Framework" document, which was published in 2002, is being reviewed and that an updated framework is to be published in November. What consultation is taking place with patients, carers and their representative groups to ensure that the review is fully informed by their views and experiences?

Malcolm Chisholm:

There is certainly a great deal of consultation with patients who have diabetes on updating the framework. That continues a process of patient involvement that has been central to the diabetes framework since it was launched. I was pleased to attend a conference in Edinburgh recently involving the local managed clinical network at which one of the patient representatives spoke. Indeed, I spoke to him beforehand about how he and others are involved in the development of diabetes services in Edinburgh. Such development is also happening elsewhere in Scotland, in particular through the managed clinical networks. I assure Karen Whitefield that the process will continue and intensify over the next few months.

Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):

Does the minister agree that specialist nurses could play an increasingly valuable role in the management of diabetes and other chronic diseases, such as multiple sclerosis, asthma and various neurological problems? That would relieve pressure on overstretched acute hospital services.

Does the minister also agree that the recruitment and retention of nurses in the national health service might be enhanced if more nurses could train and work as specialists in their chosen field?

Malcolm Chisholm:

I agree entirely with Nanette Milne. Her comments connect with the subject matter of the previous question, because one of the ways in which more services are being delivered in primary care is through the enhanced role of nurses, in particular specialist nurses. For example, in some cases nurses initiate insulin therapy for diabetic patients in primary care, where that was previously done in hospitals. Nurses lead a range of clinics for various chronic diseases. That is an extremely positive development.

I agree with Nanette Milne's second point, too. We are doing a lot in relation to the recruitment and retention of nurses, but the development of specialist nurses and nurse consultants represents another important way of providing more opportunities for nurses and, even more important, better care for patients.


Ambulance Service (Call-out Rates)

To ask the Scottish Executive what the percentage increase has been in respect of ambulance call-out rates as a result of the introduction of NHS 24. (S2O-2165)

Many of the calls received through NHS 24 would previously have gone directly to the Scottish Ambulance Service. NHS 24 referrals last year accounted for 3 per cent of the calls to accident and emergency control rooms.

Jeremy Purvis:

Perhaps I should declare that my dad is an ambulance technician.

The minister will be aware that the Scottish Ambulance Service health plan, which was published in March 2004, says on page 51:

"There is a threat that, faced with a perceived diminution in service or dissatisfaction with NHS24 telephone advice, patients or relatives will place unacceptable demands on the 999 emergency ambulance service."

Will the minister ensure that NHS 24 and the Scottish Ambulance Service make sure that all computer or personal systems are in place, to ensure that there is no disproportionate rise in call-out rates as a result of NHS 24?

Mr McCabe:

We have no evidence whatever that there is a disproportionate rise in calls to the emergency services. One of the benefits of NHS 24 is that it offers an opportunity properly to direct non-urgent calls. There is evidence that that is proving to be successful and that the service is taking strain off the 999 service.

Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):

Does the minister appreciate that those of us who supported NHS 24 are finding it harder and harder to do so? The average cost of a call is more than £130 and the service has apparently failed to reduce pressure on accident and emergency departments or on general practitioners' surgeries. How will the minister persuade the public that NHS 24 offers value for money?

Mr McCabe:

I totally refute Shona Robison's suggestion. There is evidence that NHS 24 is highly regarded—and that it is becoming more so by the day as the public becomes more aware of the service. There is much evidence of a good level of satisfaction from people who use the service. Clearly, the service will continue to develop, but we have every intention of continuing in that direction of travel.


Maternity Services (Oban)

Lorn and Islands hospital has the highest number of births of any hospital in Argyll and the isles. In light of the fact that—[Interruption.]

I think that you have got a little ahead of yourself.

I beg your pardon.

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to downgrade maternity services at the Lorn and Islands district general hospital. (S2O-2167)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):

Although that is primarily a matter for Argyll and Clyde NHS Board, I understand that no decisions have been made. Argyll and Bute local health care co-operative is working with all stakeholders to sustain and further develop high-quality local maternity services, and I would encourage all local people to get involved in that important work.

Mr McGrigor:

Thank you. In light of the fact that the Vale of Leven hospital has also had its maternity services downgraded and that expectant mothers in Argyll and the islands now have to drive 100 miles and more to Paisley for such services, will the minister acknowledge the importance of maintaining a 24-hour midwife-led service at the hospital in Oban to deliver babies and to provide prenatal and postnatal care and advice? Furthermore, is he aware that, because of the rumours about the downgrading of the service, mothers are feeling consternation and staff morale in the hospital is low?

Malcolm Chisholm:

I have been aware of the issue since I visited the Lorn and Islands district general hospital in August. However, I understand that discussions are still continuing. As I indicated in my earlier response, the local health care co-operative is heading those discussions. Indeed, I believe that Jamie McGrigor attended a meeting recently at which these matters were discussed.

The intention is that the issue should be a matter for local decision making involving midwives and service users. The excellent community midwife-led maternity unit in Oban, which has been operating for some time, will continue, but any precise details are for further local consideration.

I remind members that supplementary questions must be specific to the issue of the Lorn and Islands district general hospital.

George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):

The minister will be aware of the local community's real concern about the proposed move from a 24-hour service to an on-call night-time service. Will he guarantee that there will be proper consultation with local communities before any changes are introduced? Moreover, will he assure us that any such changes will mean that more rather than fewer births take place in north Argyll?

Malcolm Chisholm:

From what I have seen, local people are fully involved in the matter. However, I would certainly convey any concerns that such involvement is not happening to NHS Argyll and Clyde. Although any decision on the matter will be fundamentally local and will not be referred to the centre for approval, I will take a keen interest to ensure that there is full public involvement.

Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):

In his question, Jamie McGrigor raised concerns about NHS Argyll and Clyde's centralisation programme. Should the minister not be concerned that the programme is reducing choice and access to services for women and children? If that is not bad enough, does the minister share my concern that the overuse of the Royal Alexandria hospital is increasing waiting times and has led to recent outbreaks of infection and the problems with cleanliness that were reported at the weekend?

The minister will have heard my earlier qualification on this question.

Malcolm Chisholm:

Yes. I do not think that the issues that Duncan McNeil raises apply to the service at the Lorn and Islands district general hospital. No one is saying that the service there will not continue.

In more general terms, I referred earlier to the fundamental matter of delivering services more locally while moving others to a more specialist centre. That raises very live issues for NHS Argyll and Clyde. In fact, last Friday, I received a presentation from the board on the current state of its clinical services strategy. A full consultation on the strategy will take place later this year and all the issues that Duncan McNeil raised will be able to be discussed at that time.

Jim Mather (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):

Given the threat to Lorn and Islands district general hospital and other maternity hospitals in the Highlands and Islands and the depressing forecast that the population of young people in the region will fall further, what specific steps is the minister taking to work with his colleagues in the Finance and Central Services Department and the Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning Department to create conditions, including the provision of local maternity services, that are likely to persuade more young people to stay in or relocate to the area?

Malcolm Chisholm:

The relationship between the provision of maternity services and attracting or retaining people in a particular area has been raised in various contexts. In that respect, I should say that there is no question but that the community midwife-led unit will remain in Oban for as long as anyone can foresee. After all, such a service has been provided in the town as far as anyone can look back. People should remember that Oban has never had a consultant-led maternity service, and that has not resulted in the kind of economic consequences that some people have suggested have arisen in other situations.

Carolyn Leckie (Central Scotland) (SSP):

I am sure that the minister will agree that the example of the Lorn and Islands district general hospital gives us all cause for concern. Is the minister aware, as I am, that up to eight further units, for which no formal consultations have been announced, are under pressure because of staffing levels in obstetrics and midwifery? I have shared my concerns about midwifery staffing levels before. No strategic decisions have been taken on those units but they are under pressure and their viability is beginning to be questioned. Even historical establishments cannot be met. Does the minister agree that we have to act urgently to arrest the further deterioration of maternity services throughout the country? How much centralisation will take place and how many units will be left when centralisation stops?

The Presiding Officer:

Again I have to point out that we are dealing with a specific question on Lorne and Islands district general hospital. We cannot have general questions asked on the back of specific questions. However, if you wish to comment, Mr Chisholm, on you go.

Malcolm Chisholm:

I will simply repeat the fact that we are very conscious of workforce issues in maternity services; indeed, I have set up a workforce group to look into those issues, as I mentioned in the recent debate on maternity services. The number of midwives is increasing, although I accept that the number declined for a while as the birth rate declined. We are doing all we can in relation to obstetricians. The posts are there and the training posts are there, but it is not proving to be the most popular specialty at the moment.


General Questions

Question 1 is withdrawn.


Amateur Sports Clubs (Rates Relief)

To ask the Scottish Executive how many local authorities have agreed to participate in the voluntary arrangement whereby community amateur sports clubs will receive at least 80 per cent rates relief. (S2O-02136)

The Minister for Finance and Public Services (Mr Andy Kerr):

On 13 April 2004, I announced that the Scottish Executive has secured a voluntary agreement with all 32 local authorities—subject to some local variations for gun clubs—to grant at least 80 per cent discretionary rates relief to sports clubs that are registered as community amateur sports clubs with the Inland Revenue. The cost of such relief will be funded centrally.

Dennis Canavan:

Will the Scottish Executive take measures to make every genuine sports club in Scotland aware of the advantages of registering as a community amateur sports club with the Inland Revenue and of applying to their local council for rates relief? When legislation is being prepared to put voluntary arrangements on a statutory basis, will the Executive also include relief from water charges? Those charges are a considerable burden on many amateur sports clubs.

Mr Kerr:

On the first point, I and many other colleagues have contacted local sports clubs. I will happily investigate any method by which we can further promote the relief scheme. The scheme is helpful and supports our promotion of sporting activity in communities. It supports important local organisations.

I would have to discuss the second point with the relevant minister. When we consider rates relief schemes—from water charges or other charges—we must acknowledge that someone has to pay at the end of the day. The Executive has to consider taxpayers' money and the money of those who pay their water charges.


School Closures

To ask the Scottish Executive whether there will, as a matter of urgency, be a presumption against school closures. (S2O-02170)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Peter Peacock):

Local authorities have a duty to consult fully on any school closure proposals and must take responses to consultations into account before coming to decisions for which they will be held locally accountable. There is guidance on such matters and I have made it clear that authorities should apply a test of proportionate advantage to such proposals.

Christine Grahame:

As the minister is aware, there is a presumption against the closure of primary schools in England. All proposed closures must be referred to the minister, under guidance from 1999. The Scottish guidance is dated 1988. Does the minister recall his written answer on this issue in 1999? When asked whether he had any plans to change the criteria under which proposed closures of rural schools were referred to ministers, he said:

"We have no such plans."—[Official Report, Written Answers, 2 July 1999; S1O-133.]

In a written answer five years later, he said:

"we will prepare guidance".—[Official Report, Written Answers, 1 April 2004; S2O-1886.]

Given that it took five years to reach that point, and given that 11 schools in the Borders and Midlothian are under threat of closure, will the minister declare a moratorium in case another five years pass before we see the guidance?

Peter Peacock:

I have made it clear in the past that decisions on closures are essentially local decisions. It is increasingly clear that the SNP does not support local democracy or the ability of people to make decisions locally. It is remarkable that Christine Grahame makes the proposition that she does. She is prone to waving bits of newspaper about, so I will reciprocate. I have here a headline from The Press and Journal on a ban on rural school closures that John Swinney announced as part of SNP policy at a recent conference of the Countryside Alliance. However, I have another piece of paper that has a headline from the Brechin Advertiser—for those members who do not know, Brechin is in Angus—about the closure of a school. Angus Council is controlled by the Scottish National Party. It is a pity that, when John Swinney promised the Countryside Alliance that he would not close schools, he did not tell it that his own members were closing schools in Angus.

Just occasionally, it is possible to have a second supplementary.

Christine Grahame:

The position is that the minister has a responsibility. He has said that he will issue guidance for local authorities. Scotland is already 10 years behind England. There have been few closures in England, but there have been 35 closures in Scotland per year.

Question.

The rural school is the heart of the community. The minister should be ashamed that, five years on, he has had to change his mind—and he still has not delivered the guidance.

Peter Peacock:

It is interesting that the SNP increasingly looks to England for inspiration on educational policy. I repeat what I have said in the past: such decisions are difficult. They require to be taken and to be given proper weight locally. We should not listen to what the SNP says but should look at what it does with the limited opportunities that it has for power in Scotland.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I might be mistaken, but I think that Ms Grahame had a second supplementary question. How appropriate was that, given that other members are waiting to ask questions?

Second supplementary questions are allowed at my discretion; I use them very sparingly and I use my judgment on when to allow them.

Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab):

Does the minister agree that a primary school plays a huge part in the local community in urban as well as rural settings? Does he acknowledge that there are significant concerns in many city areas—including some within my constituency—about the prospect of losing a local primary school? Furthermore, does he agree that, although capacity and cost are factors that affect local authorities' decisions in such matters, educational, social and safety considerations must be paramount? Can he assure us that he will work with local authorities to ensure that that is the case?

Peter Peacock:

I am happy to respond to that. Susan Deacon makes the good point that any primary school is a big part of any community in Scotland. That is the case almost by definition. I recognise that parents have concerns about such matters. That is why I am particularly keen that local authorities are clear with their communities about the considerations that they must take into account in arriving at what are very difficult decisions.

Parents often think that purely financial motives drive the process but, as well as weighing up the possible financial benefits, authorities should consider the potential impact of the closure of a school on the community. They should examine how it would affect the community's fabric and the services that it receives and take into account the educational impacts on individual children and the wider social impacts. That is where the test of proportionate advantage—which Brian Wilson talked about when he was an education minister and which I am keen to continue to promote—is important. It allows that set of considerations to be properly balanced in public so that parents can see what is happening and councillors can come to proper decisions.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):

Does the minister accept that there is a case for strong, updated guidance that supports rural schools that are viable not just because they are centres of educational excellence, but because it would be a tragedy to rip the heart out of small, fragile rural communities?

Peter Peacock:

That point is very emotive, although I understand why people make it. In rural areas, it is often the case that small rural schools are amalgamated within a rural context and that the amalgamated school continues to sustain the wider rural community. Patterns of population change are a fact of life. We are experiencing the biggest decline in school populations that any of us has seen. In some parts of Scotland, the school population will decline by up to 40 per cent over the coming decade. That means that it is necessary to consider the proper way in which to sustain education in the long term, which is in all children's interests.

I have made clear that I regard the test of proportionate advantage to be important. I will be happy to illustrate that more fully for local authorities. As we move forward, I will help them to understand the requirements that we support in applying such tests in individual circumstances. I remind Lord James Douglas-Hamilton that the guidance that we are operating was brought in by his Government in 1981 and that he did not choose to change it while he was education minister.

Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):

I want to build on that theme. The parents of the children at the schools in my constituency that are faced with closure, which are in the Borders and Midlothian, have told me that they want the issue to be considered on a non-partisan basis. They want parents to be involved all the way through the process, they want wider consideration of the rural areas and they want any issue to do with schooling to be considered on educational grounds. Will the minister meet me and some parents who are genuinely interested in exploring opportunities with his department and the Environment and Rural Affairs Department, so that there is proper co-ordination in dealing with the fragile rural communities that I represent?

Peter Peacock:

I would be happy to meet Jeremy Purvis. I hesitate to widen the invitation, because he will appreciate that there are many instances like the one to which he refers throughout Scotland. I am happy to meet members of Parliament to discuss issues in their constituencies without necessarily widening the invitation to include parents.

The key point is that local authorities should consider properly the issues at local level and pick up the points that Jeremy Purvis and others have made today, and that he has made previously. We take these matters seriously. I am happy to ensure that in the work that we do to illuminate for local authorities what we expect of them, we build in issues about sustainable rural communities and the Executive's wider agenda.

I welcome the minister's comments. I seek reassurance that when the new guidance is published it will refer specifically to rural schools, because the existing guidance relates to every school.

Peter Peacock:

Generally, guidance that we issue on education matters applies to all schools. However, in relation to the point that I have just made to Jeremy Purvis, we are keen to have joined-up policies in the Executive and to ensure that the Education Department is working in tune with Ross Finnie's department on sustainable rural policies. Therefore, by definition, any circulars that we issue to further illuminate how we want things to be done will have to refer to the rural dimension of life and to sustainable rural communities.

Question 4 is withdrawn.


Small Claims (Limits)

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made in raising the limits for small claims in the courts. (S2O-02154)

The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):

The Scottish Executive continues to support an increase in the jurisdiction limits for small claims and summary cause actions. Officials have been in contact with bodies such as the Scottish Consumer Council, the Consumers Association, Citizens Advice Scotland, the Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Law Society of Scotland, the Scottish Court Service and the Department of Trade and Industry, and with members of the public, to obtain further views. Their responses will help me to decide how to take matters forward.

Paul Martin:

I have two points to raise with the minister. First, does the minister accept that a significant increase is required in the limit on a claim that consumers can make in the small claims court? Secondly, does he accept that those who wish to make a claim in the small claims court should be given significant advice and assistance to ensure that they are able to address the difficulties that many people face in taking such action?

Hugh Henry:

On the first point, I note the significant support for a change in the limit from within the Parliament. John Home Robertson lodged a motion, which was supported by two independent members and by every political party except the Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party. I recognise that there is genuine cross-party support. A significant body of opinion suggests that we need to make a change. We hope to do that at the earliest opportunity.

Paul Martin raised a pertinent point about not just changing the limits, but empowering people to use the system once a change has been made. We have already examined how to improve the quality of the material that is provided to people so that they can understand and use the system. He makes a pertinent point about providing support to people who want to make legitimate claims for sometimes relatively small amounts, so that they can access justice appropriately. We will reflect on the points that he made and see what improvements can be made to the system.


Sport for All

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to encourage sport for all. (S2O-02155)

The Executive is committed to a sport-for-all ethos and is working with partners to develop and deliver the targets within sport 21.

Johann Lamont:

Does the minister agree that an important balance needs to be struck between developing the abilities of individual and elite sport talents and encouraging all our young people to be involved in sport as a means of supporting their physical and emotional well-being?

In achieving that balance, will the minister reflect on the work of local sporting organisations such as Hillwood and Mosspark football clubs in my constituency, which are almost entirely sustained by voluntary activity? Such organisations reach out to young people and communities in a way in which more formal and better-funded organisations often fail to do. Will the minister consider how funding bodies such as sportscotland can be further encouraged to support local groups, which make a real difference throughout Scotland?

Mr McAveety:

A few months ago, we had a positive discussion with Hillwood boys club, which came about as a result of work by Johann Lamont. That discussion influenced the determination of the youth football review. We have asked sportscotland to develop a widening access programme and most of its resources are now used on that. A number of local authorities, which are key players in widening access to sport and encouraging a philosophy of sport for all, are partners in that work. That is why I spent an hour and a half today with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, discussing how we can deliver sport 21 through COSLA and its partner authorities, and ensure that we widen access to the community clubs that Johann Lamont rightly mentioned.

Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):

Given that schools are one of the key places in which sport can be encouraged, what discussions are on-going between the minister's department and the Education Department to increase the provision of physical education in schools and to enhance the role of school sports co-ordinators, to ensure that continuity between schools and communities is maintained?

Mr McAveety:

We are continuing discussions on that issue. We await the final recommendations of the review of physical education in schools, during which a variety of views have been raised. The review complements our discussions with local authorities about their role in ensuring that schools are a key tool for ensuring that young people have access to sport and development opportunities.


Homelessness

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making on its target to eradicate homelessness. (S2O-02171)

The Deputy Minister for Communities (Mrs Mary Mulligan):

The Scottish Executive is committed to tackling homelessness, which means both preventing its occurrence and ensuring that it is dealt with effectively and appropriately when it happens. The homelessness task force made 59 recommendations, all of which are being implemented in partnership with local authorities and others. Progress against those recommendations is set out in the report of the homelessness monitoring group that was published in January this year.

Maureen Macmillan:

I appreciate the Executive's commitment to combat homelessness in the Highland Council area. I remind the minister of her recent visit to the day centre for rough sleepers in Inverness. However, is the minister aware of the hidden homelessness in remote areas of the Highlands, where people leave their communities because of a lack of housing? Is she aware of the letter that Di Alexander, the development manager of the Highlands Small Communities Housing Trust, sent to Margaret Curran, which once again highlights the blight on the delivery of rural housing because of Scottish Water's moratorium on an increase in the capacity of waste-water treatment plants? Will the minister reschedule the postponed visit to Highland Council for the near future?

Mrs Mulligan:

I am aware of the difficulties with the supply of housing in certain rural areas. This year, the Executive is committing £65 million to rural housing supply, which is the biggest percentage of the housing budget that has ever been spent on rural housing. However, I recognise that if we are to provide more rural housing, we must ensure that the infrastructure exists to support it. That is why the Minister for Communities, Margaret Curran, has been actively speaking to Scottish Water to ensure that it takes into account the needs of rural housing development in its plans for the future.


Scottish Executive (Public Relations)

To ask the Scottish Executive how much it estimates it will spend in total on public relations in this and the next two financial years and whether it will take any steps to reduce those figures. (S2O-02150)

The Minister for Finance and Public Services (Mr Andy Kerr):

The Scottish Executive plans to spend £750,000 on contracted public relations agencies to support its public information campaigns in 2004-05. The amount has been held at the same level as for 2003-04. The Executive's marketing budgets are set annually, so it is impossible to estimate what the spend will be on public relations work to support campaigns in the next two financial years.

Fergus Ewing:

Not for the first time, we do not get an answer to the question. According to press reports, a colossal amount of money is being spent on public relations—on the Executive promoting itself rather than investing in Scottish public services. Is not far too much being spent on that and what will the minister do to reduce the figure?

Mr Kerr:

The member knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing. Let me give the Parliament some examples. One example is the work that we have done on domestic abuse. Christina Aguilera joined our campaign, which got us on the front page of The Herald and got coverage in nine other national newspapers, four regional dailies, 15 local newspapers, on the front page of the BBC UK website, on the BBC World website and on 17 other international websites. Another example is the work that we have done in relation to the free at the Dee campaign, on which we spent £25,000 and got a return to the taxpayer of £156,000. We invested £230,000 on public relations in the healthy living campaign, which brought back £1.7 billion-worth of free advertising for the Executive. We are challenging lifestyles in Scotland, and we have to challenge those lifestyles because that is how we save money for the taxpaying public. A woman leaving a domestically violent situation because of the price of any work that the Executive has done makes it a price worth paying.