Plenary, 06 Jul 2000

Meeting date: Thursday, July 6, 2000

Official Report 762KB pdf

---

Question Time

---

SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

---

National Health Service

To ask the Scottish Executive whether there are plans to set up back pain clinics throughout the NHS in Scotland similar to that at Glasgow royal infirmary. (S1O-2115)

The service to which the member refers is a good example of a service that puts patients' needs first, which means shorter waiting times, better access and more appropriate treatments. A number of similar chronic pain services are provided across Scotland.

Does the minister appreciate that back pain is at almost epidemic levels in Scotland and that it equals Burns's description of toothache as

"the hell o' a' diseases"?

Eighty per cent of Scots suffer from back pain at some stage in their lives. Given that the minister praised the excellent work of Glasgow royal infirmary—and, I hope, that of physiotherapists—in that regard, I trust that she will be able to tell me why that pioneering back pain clinic will be without secure funding from January.

This is the second time that Dorothy-Grace Elder has raised this matter in the chamber today. I remind Ms Elder that the funding for that service is a matter for Greater Glasgow Health Board. Any local service must be decided on locally and funding decisions must be made locally. It is right and proper that local health boards should consider which services are most effective in meeting the needs of the population. It is important to recognise the suffering that can be caused by continual back pain and to continue to develop services that address such chronic conditions.

---

Mental Health Services

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve access to mental health crisis services. (S1O-2125)

Continuous improvement in accessing specialist out-of-hours and crisis services is an ambition set out in our published policy for mental health. That ambition is being pursued by the care agencies.

I thank the minister for his answer. However, he must acknowledge that there are significant problems with the crisis services that are currently available. All parties—people with mental illness, their families and other services, such as the police—lack awareness of the available services and do not know how to access them. Will the recently established mental health and well-being support group investigate more effective ways of disseminating information to service users, carers and members of the public?

To have a service in place but not to ensure that those who need it know that it exists and how to access it is a theme that runs through a number of developments in the health service in Scotland. A further example is the extension of the NHS helpline—the Scottish version of NHS Direct. The framework for mental health services, which calls for crisis services as part of the template for local services, has a six-year implementation period. The mental health and well-being support group has the task of advising on and helping to advance those developments. The group will take account of the point that Nora Radcliffe raised.

Given the high incidence of mental health difficulties among looked-after children, does the minister have any plans to ensure that services are targeted towards that group?

We are working together across ministerial briefs to ensure that various groups of people—for example, rough sleepers and looked-after children when they leave the care of the authorities—have the access and information about the wide-ranging services that they should have. Scott Barrie's point is important, and it runs as a theme through the developments that we are trying to make.

---

Railways

To ask the Scottish Executive when it expects to have discussions with Strathclyde Passenger Transport regarding its plans for improving the railway network in Glasgow. (S1O-2132)

We will develop strategic priorities for Scotland's railways. In preparation for that, the Executive has already started discussions with SPT on railway developments.

Is the minister aware of long-standing proposals such as the Glasgow airport link, the crossrail project and a tunnel project, all of which are essential features of the development of the railway network? Does she anticipate a time when decisions will be made to proceed with any or all of those projects?

I am well aware of those and many other projects that are being considered. There are two ways in which to proceed with such developments. One is through the ScotRail franchise, about which we will start discussions later this year. The other is through the public transport fund. We are seeking applications from local authorities by 7 August. Through those approaches, and through the shadow strategic rail authority's rail passenger partnership fund, we can in a variety of ways develop such projects as those mentioned by Robert Brown.

Does the minister agree that such schemes as the Glasgow airport direct link and the north-south crossrail scheme will be a massive boost for the economy of Glasgow and areas further afield? Will she give an assurance that she will meet representatives of transport authorities? She has mentioned that applications should be forthcoming by 7 August—and she may get some answers—but will she assure us that, when she meets the transport authorities, she will obtain the support and investment necessary for those long-term plans to proceed?

My answer to Robert Brown was that we were having precisely those discussions with Strathclyde Passenger Transport. Our job is to decide priorities across the whole of Scotland. In order to do that, we need to speak to SPT, the other transport authorities and local authorities throughout Scotland about what our strategic priorities should be when we discuss the ScotRail franchise. There are other ways in which we can pursue that, but I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to give carte blanche to every scheme that Ms White could raise with me. We will consider all the public transport fund applications and decide on the best one to take forward.

Can the minister indicate whether difficulties still exist regarding the route of the proposed rail link to Glasgow airport? Local authorities and local communities have expressed concern about that route going through certain open-space areas.

We have conducted a survey on the future for Scotland's airports. We will be developing the whole issue of airport links—by rail and other means. I do not want to respond in detail on any matter that might be the subject of a future planning issue.

---

Pension Schemes

To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer by Sarah Boyack to question S1W-6117 on 26 June 2000, whether it will outline the process involved in winding up the two Scottish Transport Group pension schemes. (S1O-2149)

Having secured new pension arrangements for their members, the trustees of the Scottish Transport Group pension schemes have responsibility for taking such steps as are necessary in order to wind up the pension schemes.

Given the growing concern over the matter not only in Stirling but throughout Scotland, given the fact that the issue concerns 12,000 pensioners and deferred pensioners—who are, obviously, not getting any younger—and given the grave concerns of the T & G over the whole affair, can the minister provide details on the role of the trustee or trustees and on what the Executive is actually doing?

I am aware of the immense frustration among those who want the matter to be resolved. The Executive is attempting to expedite procedures and the trustees are working to wind up the funds this year. Complex tax and legal matters need to be completed. We hope to bring to the Parliament in the autumn an order that will achieve the wind-up of the STG. We are in discussion with the trustees and the Treasury to move matters forward.

Is the minister aware that this matter has been dragging on for seven years and that the 12,000 pensioners throughout Scotland are not only frustrated but very angry about what seems to be buck passing between the Treasury in London and the Scottish Executive? In view of the fact that MSPs from all parties have signed a motion asking for urgent action to be taken on this matter, will the minister ensure that the £129 million surplus is handed over to the pensioners so that justice is seen to be done? That might help to restore some credibility to the Scottish Executive, which is badly in need of restoration following recent events.

The reassurance that I can give to Dennis Canavan is that I am well aware of the concerns and frustration that exist. I refer him to the answer that I gave to Sylvia Jackson—that we hope to introduce an order in the autumn that will effect the wind-up of the STG pension schemes. That matter is for the Parliament to discuss and that is the way in which progress can be made in this matter.

---

Culture and Heritage (Access)

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures Historic Scotland and the national heritage memorial fund have taken to develop access to culture and the built heritage. (S1O-2142)

Both Historic Scotland and the trustees of the national heritage memorial fund, which incorporates the heritage lottery fund, have taken and continue to take an active and positive approach to increasing access to culture and the built heritage in Scotland for all groups of our population.

I thank the minister for her reply. How will the increasing access to which she refers be effected locally, particularly in respect of the perilous funding situation of the Carrick, the world's oldest clipper ship, which is a vital part of our maritime heritage? The Carrick is languishing in a state of disrepair in the Scottish Maritime Museum in Irvine.

The Carrick is of considerable historical significance, but it will cost in the region of £10 million to make it seaworthy again. This may seem self-evident, but the Carrick is not a building, and so falls outwith the remit of the Historic Buildings Council for Scotland, which advises ministers on grant applications. However, there has been interest from the Australian Government and discussions have taken place with the National Museums of Scotland. I await the outcome of those discussions with interest.

Sadly, in this day and age we are apt to forget the disabled. What plans does the minister have to improve access to our culture and built heritage for that sector of society?

Historic Scotland has drawn up specific plans to ensure that people who have physical disabilities or learning disabilities will have access to all its properties. It recently carried out an audit of its properties, and an action plan will be drawn up that will mean that every property that it owns will ensure the maximum access for people with disabilities. Historic Scotland attaches great importance to that work.

I associate myself with Allan Wilson's remarks on the Carrick. However, I point out that the Carrick is part of the Scottish Maritime Museum and that the funding of that museum is in an equally perilous position. Can the minister indicate the time scale according to which the national cultural strategy will begin to influence the work of Historic Scotland and the national heritage memorial fund in providing more secure funding for our industrial museums, which are a central part of our heritage but look like becoming history unless something is done?

The national cultural strategy will be published in the second week of August, and will contain a section on Scotland's museums and a plan to audit collections with a view to possible restructuring.

Can the minister confirm whether any of those measures has been, or will be, funded by the reallocated underspend in the health budget?

I am not prepared to comment on that. The national cultural strategy will set out a strategic approach to the museums and heritage sector in Scotland.

---

Child Poverty

To ask the Scottish Executive how it is monitoring progress in combating child poverty. (S1O-2148)

The Executive's targets and milestones for measuring progress in tackling child poverty were set out in our social justice strategy. The first annual report, published later this year, will detail the progress made against the various indicators. The member may be interested to know that the number of children in households with very low earnings has already started to fall. We expect that 100,000 children in Scotland will have been lifted out of poverty by 2002.

I welcome the minister's answer. However, does she share my concern at recent reports, by UNICEF and others, showing the persistently high numbers of Scottish children living in poverty? I recognise the progress that the Scottish Executive is making, but will the minister assure us that every effort will be used to reduce the extremely unacceptable number of children living in poverty?

I certainly offer that assurance. The Executive is not complacent about the task ahead. However, the UNICEF information dates from 1995 and shows the legacy of two decades of the Conservative Government, under whose regime the number of people living in poverty doubled and the number of children living in households with low incomes more than doubled. There is a legacy of poverty, neglect and decline. The Executive, working with the UK Government, will reverse that.

Will the minister confirm that the Executive's targets rely on the maximum uptake of benefits, such as working families tax credit, to raise low-income families above the poverty threshold? Will she therefore comment on the amount of money that the Department of Social Security in Scotland is spending on benefit maximisation campaigns? Will she join me in asking the DSS to direct much more money to benefit maximisation and uptake and less on the frivolous expenditure of attacking alleged fraud—expenditure that has been proved to be out of proportion to actual fraud in the benefits system?

Benefit uptake campaigns are being funded to a much higher level by the current UK Government than they have ever been in the past. Local government and the voluntary sector have key roles to play.

Let me challenge the assumption that this is simply a matter for the UK Government. The Scottish Executive has a key role to play in terms of education, health and enterprise. We are committing £1.5 billion to initiatives to tackle social exclusion and to lift people out of poverty. I stress that, by working together, both Governments will succeed in ending child poverty in 20 years.

---

Health Services (Forth Valley)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has met representatives of Forth Valley Health Board and Forth Valley Acute Hospitals NHS Trust to discuss their proposals for transferring maternity and other children's services from Stirling to Falkirk. (S1O-2105)

No. Those proposals arise from the Forth valley acute services review and are currently out to public consultation. I will consider a recommendation from Forth Valley Health Board after the consultation period ends on 8 September.

I am sure the minister cannot wait to meet representatives of Forth Valley Health Board; I am sure that the meeting will be more congenial than meetings with her colleagues—

More! More!

Where's Tosh?

Order. I have heard of leading with one's chin, but let us have a question.

I am sure that I will last longer than Savarese.

Given that current proposals would relocate Perth maternity services to Dundee and Stirling maternity services to Falkirk, will the minister consider taking a strategic view to ensure that either one or both of those services remains in either Perth or Stirling so that the people of west Perthshire have a local service?

It is wonderful to take lectures from Conservative members—and especially from Mr Monteith—on how to win friends and influence people in one's own party.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to comment on the important issue of maternity services. A number of reviews of maternity services are taking place across the country. There are good reasons for that, not least the falling birth rate and the need to provide the safest possible services. It is important to think about the country as a whole when considering maternity services and to give strategic direction at a national level. That is why we are developing the first-ever national framework for maternity services, which will be published in October—I am sure that it will be highly relevant to the many local discussions that are taking place.

Is the minister aware that the proposed reconfiguration of health services in Forth valley could have a financial impact on the local health trusts? In light of the decision by Forth Valley Primary Care NHS Trust to sell off its Bellsdyke site, will the minister assure me that the money that is raised will be reinvested in the local health service to ensure that we improve the overall health service in the Forth valley area and, in particular, that we have the necessary mental health services?

I am pleased that Michael Matheson's question implies—at least, I think that it does—a recognition of a need for change in the NHS. That is refreshing, because some Opposition members suggest that change in and of itself is a bad thing. It is important that we invest in change. That was the subject of our debate this morning and it is why almost £0.5 billion more is going into the NHS in Scotland this year. We want to work with local boards and trusts to ensure that people at the local level can make best use of the resources that are available to them.

Is the minister aware of the widespread concern in the Forth Valley Health Board area that the proposals to move the maternity services from Stirling to Falkirk are based on a flawed interpretation of deprivation indices, and especially the index for Carstairs? The proposals would involve a major investment in maternity facilities in Falkirk when state-of-the-art facilities already exist in Stirling.

It is important to recognise, as I certainly do, that maternity services are an especially sensitive and important issue. It is therefore crucial to have effective consultation and discussion with local communities and, especially, with parents or parents-to-be. That said, we should not jump the gun and make judgments about processes that are not yet complete. As I have indicated, discussions are taking place at a local level and recommendations will come forward in due course. In the meantime, I hope that much of the constructive consultation and discussion in the Forth Valley Health Board area can continue.

---

Fuel Prices

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make representations to Her Majesty's Government that ceilings should be introduced on fuel prices in areas of Scotland where it believes that monopoly conditions exist. (S1O-2103)

The Scottish Executive is investing record amounts in Scotland's rural transport and will continue to ensure that Scotland's interests are being placed firmly on the agenda of the UK Government through direct contacts with the Treasury and the Scotland Office.

Is the minister aware that the Government in the Republic of Greece has, on numerous occasions, introduced price ceilings—maximum prices—for petrol in rural areas outwith Athens and Salonica? I cordially invite the minister to tour the Highlands and Islands by car during the summer recess to discover for herself that the fuel prices there are the highest in the world. Does she accept that, if ceilings are good enough for Greece, surely they are good enough for Scotland?

That, once again, was an attempt to deal with a complex political challenge through a soundbite. We are well aware of the number of options for giving people better access to cheaper fuel—for example, the Powershift programme and support for rural petrol stations. The Scottish Executive is acting. I would like to remind Mr Fergus Ewing that I do not think that it is in our interest in the Scottish Parliament to debate these complex issues in soundbites. It is in our long-term interest that the private discussions that I have with the chancellor and with people in the Scotland Office remain private as we negotiate the options for Scotland.

Will the Executive make the point to the Treasury that areas of the Highlands and Islands are paying not only the highest fuel prices in the world, but extra in VAT on their fuel bills? That means higher taxation in areas where people can least afford it.

We are looking forward to the publication of the Office of Fair Trading report that was commissioned by Calum Macdonald, the Labour minister responsible for transport before devolution. This is a highly complex issue. I will want to examine the OFT's report and to continue discussions with Brian Wilson in the Scotland Office and with the Treasury. We need to see what we can do in the long term to tackle the issues that have been raised today.

Is the minister aware that although in the past 16 months there have been substantial increases in petrol prices—around 20 per cent or more in parts of the Highlands and Islands—fuel tax has accounted for less than 2p of that increase? That is far less than the 15 per cent increase in taxation promised by the SNP in its budget for independence. What assurance can the minister give to the many people who live in areas such as mine, including elderly people, who have felt neglected by transport policies in the past because they do not drive?

I could not agree more with the member about the sheer hypocrisy of those who claim to have a different solution to this problem. I am aware of four different suggestions from the SNP benches alone as to how we should tackle it. Through the public transport fund, we are delivering support for rural petrol stations and the highest-ever support for our lifeline ferry and air services. We are investing in Stornoway air terminal and providing support for Orkney. We are delivering an integrated transport system for people in rural areas.

The minister must accept that the high cost of fuel is having a detrimental effect on the economic well-being of our country and our citizens. Will she encourage members of the Scottish Executive to make strong representations to their Westminster colleagues about the possibility of reducing the fuel tax and VAT on petroleum products from their current extortionate levels?

I am in regular contact with both the Scotland Office and the Treasury on matters such as this. That is one of the reasons why we are keen to promote the use of liquid petroleum gas in the Highlands and Islands—it is an environmentally friendly fuel that is much cheaper than the alternatives. We recognise that this issue is important and we are keen to act on it.

---

Children's Fund

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is receiving an appropriate equivalent amount from Her Majesty's Treasury to that allocated to the children's fund in England and Wales and, if so, how much it is receiving and how it intends to spend any such funds. (S1O-2136)

No money has been allocated to a children's fund in England and Wales. In his pre-budget statement last November, the chancellor announced that funding for a children's fund for England would be considered as part of the spending review. Decisions on how the consequentials should be spent will be a matter for us to decide in the context of our spending review.

At a Treasury briefing a few months ago, voluntary organisations were told that a sum of between £100 million and £120 million would be allocated to a children's fund. Is the minister saying that that is not the case?

I hope that the member was listening to what I said, because I can confirm that no money has been allocated to a children's fund. The chancellor said that he would consider the matter in the light of his comprehensive spending review. After an announcement has been made, we will get the consequentials. The Executive will then decide what to do with that money. Unlike the nationalists, we will not be London led on this issue. [Interruption.]

Order. It is the way he tells them.

---

Ryder Cup

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making towards bringing the Ryder cup to Scotland in 2009. (S1O-2129)

We are committed to securing the Ryder cup for Scotland in 2009 and have now appointed Hastings International, a sports marketing agency, to assist with the preparation and promotion of Scotland's bid. We are working closely with the Scottish Tourist Board, Scottish Enterprise, sportscotland and the five Scottish courses that are interested in staging the competition to ensure that our bid is of the highest quality.

Will the minister consult widely to ensure that the whole of Scotland benefits from hosting this international tournament? I suggest that, as part of that consultation process, she would be welcome to play a round in Eastwood. [Laughter.] She would be most welcome.

I am afraid that I have my holidays arranged—but I would be delighted to play some golf in Eastwood at some stage.

We understand the importance of the Ryder cup to Scotland. Henry McLeish and I, with the aid of Colin Montgomerie, will launch the golf tourism strategy next week. I will also visit the European open in Ireland at the weekend and will speak to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Mr McDaid. I will seek support and information from him on how the successful bid was mounted for the Ryder cup at the K Club in 2005.

I welcome the progress that has been made, given that it was my colleague, Fiona McLeod, who first suggested a bid to bring the Ryder cup to Scotland. That proves that, occasionally, the Executive listens to good ideas. Will the minister confirm whether the contract to progress the bid includes the setting up and running of a junior Ryder cup, something else that was suggested by the SNP and enthusiastically supported by the minister last summer?

That was, indeed, par for the course. There has been a suggestion that there would be a junior Ryder cup. I know that the Professional Golfers Association, and indeed Ryder Cup Ltd, is interested in that. If we are successful in our bid to get the Ryder cup to Scotland in 2009, that will be considered.

---

Haemophilia

To ask the Scottish Executive when the report of the internal investigation into the infection of Scottish haemophilia patients via contaminated blood products will be published. (S1O-2146)

That report was completed recently by my department. I received the report recently and am considering it. I intend to publish the report, together with my response, as soon as possible.

Will the minister explain why people in Scotland were exposed to hepatitis virus C for some two to two and a half years after the problem was stopped in England and Wales? Will she also explain why the report has been delayed for more than eight months?

More important, will compensation be available to the innocent victims?

With the greatest of respect to Andrew Welsh, because I think that the issue is important, I must say that the first part of his question concerns precisely the issue that has been investigated as part of the report. It would, therefore, be inappropriate for me to comment on it in advance of full publication.

As Mr Welsh indicates, the events in question go back a considerable number of years—in fact to the late 1980s and early 1990s. It has taken considerably longer than we expected to investigate what happened and to prepare the report. I give an assurance that the report will be published as soon as I am able to do so. As I have indicated, the Health and Community Care Committee will also get a copy for its consideration.

The minister will be aware of one of my constituents, Mr Thomas McKissock, who recently petitioned the Parliament on hepatitis C, which he has contracted. Mr McKissock is not haemophiliac, but contracted hepatitis C through a blood transfusion.

When the report is published, will it refer to such cases? If not, could the minister indicate what action might be possible in dealing with such situations?

The report to which the original question alluded is on the issue of hepatitis C and the heat treatment of blood products for haemophilia in the mid-1980s. That is distinct from the issue that Cathy Jamieson has just raised. I know that it is a sensitive issue. However, there is an important distinction to be drawn between the time when knowledge existed that enabled the isolation of specific viruses and the treatment of blood or blood products to avoid transmission of those viruses and the time when such practices were put into place. Those are sensitive issues. I have corresponded with a number of members on the issues and I am happy to continue to do so, but I have made an appropriate level of comment in the context of the chamber.

Will the minister say when the report was made available to her?

I received the final version of the report in the past few days and I have not yet had the opportunity to study it in detail.

---

Waiting Lists

To ask the Scottish Executive how many people are currently on local authority waiting lists for placements in long-term care. (S1O-2104)

The information that Kay Ullrich requests is not held centrally. However, statistics on delayed discharges from national health service hospitals of patients awaiting places in nursing and residential homes are to be collected quarterly.

I find it incredible that the Deputy Minister for Community Care does not have access to those figures. How can he hope to address the problem when he has no idea of its extent? Does the minister agree with Mr Bernard Devine, the chief executive of North Ayrshire Council, who states in a letter:

"It is quite obvious that local authorities throughout Scotland are unable to fund all persons assessed as requiring residential or nursing home care"?

I do not usually respond to letters that I have not seen, but Mr Devine will be pleased to know that this week we have allocated an additional £10 million to local authorities to do what he requests in his letter. It is interesting to note that Annabel Goldie referred to the provenance of that £10 million and that it was referred to as funding for trees. The £10 million is being spent on doing exactly what was requested—to free up as many as 1,000 delayed discharge beds in the NHS.

The minister will be aware that I raised with him the issue of waiting lists for long-term care placements in Dumfries and Galloway and how they have been prioritised. He will also be aware that there is an auditor's report on certain practices in Dumfries and Galloway Council's care homes. Can he tell me what progress has been made with that report? If not, will he undertake to ensure that the report is completed as expeditiously as possible?

Mr Mundell has raised the matter previously at question time. I offered to discuss it with him, but he did not take up the opportunity to meet me. However, we expect the report to come soon and I will study it carefully when it arrives.

---

Drugs

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making on the introduction of legislation which will facilitate the confiscation of assets of individuals charged with drug dealing. (S1O-2108)

We are liaising closely with the Government about asset confiscation and recovery of the proceeds of crime in general. We will return to Parliament with specific proposals after the recess. It is likely that the proposals will relate to all crimes.

That is interesting. Will the minister follow the wishes of the Prime Minister and introduce a system of confiscation of assets through spot fines on drunks and hooligans? If so, will he undertake to spend a Saturday night in Glasgow assessing the system's implementation?

Mr Gallie leaves me speechless because I could not discern a question that made any sense. No, we will not support spot fines, but as Mr Gallie knows, we are supporting a range of effective measures to crack down on the enforcement side of the drugs agenda. The Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency is funded to the tune of £10 million and the additional £8.9 million that we brought forward recently is sufficient to create record numbers of police officers in Scotland.

---

Children's Panels

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to review the methods of selection and to augment training for children's panel members. (S1O-2109)

Potential panel members undergo various checks and interviews before being recommended for appointment. Those measures include checks with the Scottish Criminal Record Office. Panel members are required to undergo pre-service training prior to their appointment. They also undergo regular in-service training. Training requirements are frequently reviewed by children's panel training organisers in liaison with the Scottish Executive.

I thank the minister for his response. The selection process can be subject to local variation and the police checks to which the minister refers are effective only when an applicant has a police record. Would the minister be willing to set up a national register of volunteers for and employees of children's organisations and voluntary organisations that deal with children? That would allow a pattern to be shown if somebody were continually applying to such organisations and it would enable that pattern to be investigated.

That is an issue about those who are not suitable to work with children, but who do not have criminal records. We have for some time been considering setting up the equivalent of a consultancy index and I hope to be able to make a statement about that very soon.