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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 10 Jan 2002

Meeting date: Thursday, January 10, 2002


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE


Courts (Mediation)

To ask the Scottish Executive what role mediation can play in the civil courts. (S1O-4390)

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):

The Scottish Executive supports the use of alternative methods for resolving disputes where such methods are feasible and appropriate. Mediation is likely to be appropriate where there is a continuing relationship between the parties involved, for example, in family cases, neighbourhood disputes or commercial situations. Mediation has been found to be helpful in family cases and the civil courts have the power to refer family cases to mediation.

David Mundell:

Is the Deputy First Minister aware that the Lord Chancellor has announced that United Kingdom Government departments will go to court only as a last resort and will seek to use mediation to resolve disputes to highlight to society the general benefits of mediation? Is the Deputy First Minister likely to recommend that the Scottish Executive follow the Lord Chancellor's line?

Mr Wallace:

I am always willing to follow good practice, wherever it is established. I will consider carefully the Lord Chancellor's proposals to see whether there are points that the Scottish Executive could follow. I cannot give Mr Mundell a definite answer, but I am willing to consider the proposals because, as I said, we believe that mediation is a useful form of proceeding to settle disputes in appropriate cases.


Traffic (Midlothian)

To ask the Scottish Executive what importance it attaches to protecting communities in Midlothian from the effects of heavy traffic. (S1O-4387)

The Scottish Executive is responsible for the maintenance and improvement of the trunk road network and places great importance on protecting communities in Midlothian from the effects of heavy traffic.

Rhona Brankin:

Will the minister give an assurance that he will consider as a matter of urgency the need for a bypass for Dalkeith and for pedestrian crossings in Pathhead? Does he acknowledge the huge public support in Midlothian for the reintroduction of passenger rail services on the Waverley line?

Lewis Macdonald:

I agree with Rhona Brankin that there are a number of areas in which public expenditure and support can help to tackle traffic congestion in the way that she described. She will be aware of the substantial support from the Scottish Executive for the reintroduction of the Waverley line. We recognise its importance for Midlothian as well as for communities that are further south.

The Dalkeith bypass proposal emerged at the time of the strategic roads review in 1999 and was deferred at that time. It stands to be considered with other identified schemes in due course. Representatives of Pathhead community council met my officials to discuss pedestrian crossings and were invited to return with specific proposals. When they do so, the proposals will be considered sympathetically and timeously.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

The minister will be aware that 200 residents of the Ladywood area of Penicuik recently met to protest about the abysmal bus service in that area. Does he agree that at the heart of traffic congestion is the failed policy of bus deregulation and the consequential bus war between Lothian Buses and FirstGroup, which my colleague Kenny MacAskill highlighted yesterday? If he does not agree, will he speak to some of those 200 Ladywood residents, who will tell him that competition has left them with virtually no service on weekday evenings and none on Sundays?

Lewis Macdonald:

I am well aware of that issue. As Christine Grahame said, there was a parliamentary debate yesterday evening on buses in Edinburgh. It was striking that neither Kenny MacAskill nor his SNP colleagues were able to propose an alternative to the propositions that were introduced in the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001, which are bus partnerships, quality partnerships and quality contracts for bus services. I was able to recommend that local authorities in Lothian should consider carefully how they should use those measures to improve services for passengers.

Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con):

Will the minister tell the Parliament whether he appreciates that projected land releases in the Borders are likely to add to traffic flows on the A68 and aggravate the problems in Dalkeith? Will he tell us how reconsideration of the deferred Dalkeith bypass might be put back on the Executive's agenda? Can he be a bit more specific than to say "in due course"?

Lewis Macdonald:

I will be more specific. As Mr Tosh will be aware, our roads programme is fully committed until 2004. Then, the Dalkeith proposal and other deferred proposals will be considered along with other emerging priorities in the road transport system. I appreciate the impact on Midlothian of economic development in the Borders. That is why we have given the support that we have to the Waverley line project. We will consider that further when the promoters reach the next stage.


“Better Behaviour—Better Learning”

3. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made in implementing the discipline task group report "Better Behaviour—Better Learning" and in ensuring that all schools have a discipline policy closely linked to policies for learning and teaching. (S1O-4417)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):

Following the publication of the report in June 2001, the Executive produced a detailed implementation plan to take forward the 36 recommendations that the report contained. The plan was developed in consultation with the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Association of Directors in Social Work, and was published on 12 December 2001. Some of the recommendations will now be taken forward by schools and local authorities, including recommendation 2, which relates to the review of discipline policies. Funding worth £3 million is being made available to all local authorities to assist with reviews of relevant policies. Authorities will be expected to report back to the Executive, showing how their revised policies reflect the recommendations.

Karen Whitefield:

Is the minister aware that many teachers and parents are concerned about children who cannot cope with the structure of the school day and who are, as a result, disruptive and often display unacceptable behaviour? Does she agree that teachers alone cannot deal with that problem and does she have any plans to resource and develop additional support for those children and their families, teachers and classmates?

Cathy Jamieson:

We take seriously the issue of young people whose needs mean that, for a period of time, they might not be able to be maintained in the usual classroom setting. For that reason, the Executive is resourcing and supporting the setting up of pupil support bases to ensure that those young people get the help and support that they need.

Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):

Will the content and details of the effectiveness of each school's discipline policy be included in the performance indicators that are examined by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education? Will the minister assure me that monitoring and inspection of school performance in that and other regards will not be left solely to local authorities?

Cathy Jamieson:

I am happy to clarify that situation. I have indicated that the Scottish Executive wants local authorities to respond to us. Clearly, there is a continuing role for the education inspectorate in examining all the issues that surround the quality of education and school life. I am happy to concur with the views that were expressed by the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice yesterday. The Deputy First Minister, the First Minister and I believe that there is a continuing role for HMIE in the school inspection process—there is no disagreement on that matter. However, we wish to make it clear that local authorities should want to take a close interest in their schools and to monitor them as a matter of course, rather than wait for an inspection to come around.


Families (Support)

To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken to support families and improve parenting skills. (S1O-4405)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):

We are committed to giving all our children the best possible start in life. That means providing a range of support to parents and children and ensuring that we reach the most vulnerable families. We are delivering that support through initiatives such as sure start Scotland and the starting well initiative and by funding voluntary sector organisations such as ParentLine Scotland and Parent Network Scotland.

Scott Barrie:

The minister will be aware of the increase in referrals to children's hearings in Scotland on the grounds of care and protection. Given that that is partly because of the immense pressures that many parents face, does the minister agree that we need to increase the support that is available to vulnerable parents to ensure that their children are protected at all times?

Cathy Jamieson:

I appreciate that parenting is a difficult task, particularly for lone parents and others in vulnerable circumstances. I want to ensure that we are able to provide support at the earliest possible stage. That way, we will be able to ensure that young people get the opportunity to make use of all the services that are available to them. I have recently had discussions with officials about how we can deliver additional support to parents. We will return to the issue with further responses in due course.


Social Inclusion Partnerships<br />(Misapplication of Funds)

To ask the Scottish Executive how many social inclusion partnership boards are under investigation for misapplication of funds. (S1O-4418)

There are no social inclusion partnership boards under investigation by the Scottish Executive for misapplication of funds.

I am absolutely delighted to hear that. What mechanisms exist to ensure that social inclusion partnership budgets are not used to pay for mainline budget projects? How often have those mechanisms pre-empted such expenditure and in which SIPs?

I am not sure that I heard all that the member said. Could he perhaps repeat it?

I am sorry. I will repeat the question more distinctly. What mechanisms exist to ensure that SIP budgets are not used to pay for mainline budget projects? How often have those mechanisms pre-empted such expenditure and in which SIPs?

Ms Curran:

That is an interesting question for us to consider. I will give it great consideration. In all sincerity, if I do not give Colin Campbell the detail that he wants, I am happy to discuss it with him because it is an important issue for our examination of the SIP boards.

The funding for SIPs is clearly not meant to be a substitute for mainline funding and should never be used as such. I assure Colin Campbell categorically that on every visit that I have made to a SIP I have asked that specific question. We have a robust system of appraisal and monitoring of SIPs, in which a number of Executive officers are in close contact with SIPs. There are annual appraisals at which such questions are asked in great depth.

If Colin Campbell has information that he wishes to draw to my attention, I will be grateful to receive it. I assure Parliament categorically that SIP moneys are meant to relate to the SIP programmes, as explained in our policy, and that they are not meant to be a substitute for mainline funding.

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):

Will the minister provide information on how successful SIPs are in levering in mainstream funding from other partners? As she has outlined already and as we are aware, the purpose of SIP funding is to act as an incentive for other partners to contribute to improved provision. Will the minister outline whether more can be done to target those areas that are most in need?

Ms Curran:

That, too, is an interesting question. It goes to the heart of the SIP policy. SIP funding is not meant to be a substitute for mainline spending, but nor is it meant to be the only application of spending for certain projects in the SIP area.

SIPs are meant to be catalysts and platforms for communities to ask pertinent questions about spending on mainline services in their areas. For example, in greater Easterhouse in my constituency, the SIP board managed to investigate and find out that spending in that area was £164 million. It is for that community to question that expenditure and how it meets the needs of that community.

We are introducing and have spent considerable funds on the local budgeting process. We intend to use that as a way in which SIPs can lever much more additional funding into their areas. We also intend that, through partnership working, the SIP boards will deliver, increase and maximise the impact of that spending.

Question 6 has been withdrawn.


“For Scotland's children”

7. Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are being taken following its "For Scotland's children" report to address the exclusion of vulnerable children from services through deregistration from general practitioners, school exclusion and eviction. (S1O-4402)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):

The Scottish Executive has already taken steps to reduce school exclusions and evictions of families with children and to ensure that primary health care is available for all. Our new Cabinet sub-committee on children's services will monitor progress and ensure inclusion for all children.

Maureen Macmillan:

Is the minister aware of recent research that shows that girls who are excluded from school are less likely to have their educational needs addressed than boys who are excluded? I know that, in the past, girls who were excluded for non-attendance slipped out of the education system in their early teens. Is the minister also aware that teenage girls who move with their mothers to a new area to escape domestic violence often stay at home to support their mothers rather than attend school? Will the minister consider how such families can be best supported so that those children do not lose their opportunity for education?

Cathy Jamieson:

I reassure Maureen Macmillan that I am aware of some of the issues that surround the needs of young people who must flee domestic violence or difficult situations. I want to ensure that all young people have the opportunity to make the best use of their education. That is why we want to ensure that no young person falls through the net.

If young people are not attending school, we need to know the reasons why. We need to be able to tackle that and we need to provide the support that enables young people to take up those opportunities. We will continue to examine progress on that and we will ensure that young people have access to the appropriate health services. We will also continue to address the problems of children in families that suffer homelessness.

Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

Does the minister agree with the statement in "For Scotland's children" that, of the three factors that Maureen Macmillan mentioned,

"The most common reason for children being lost to services appears to be through homelessness",

which implies that all initiatives to address homelessness are to be particularly commended? Will the minister take the opportunity to commend the initiative of Angus Council, where there is a protocol that requires joint consideration of such circumstances by its housing and social work departments?

Cathy Jamieson:

It is an absolute priority for the Executive that there should be a more integrated approach to providing services. We want to see that across all Executive departments. I will continue to work with my colleagues in departments to ensure that that happens. I encourage all local authorities to continue the good work that has begun in integrating children's services.


Scottish Executive Priorities

To ask the Scottish Executive what its main priorities will be in 2002. (S1O-4400)

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):

As the Parliament discussed and agreed yesterday, the main priorities for the Executive in 2002 will be to focus effort on delivering first-class public services. Health, education, crime, transport and jobs are the key areas for improvement and ministers are determined to deliver a real difference to people throughout Scotland.

Des McNulty:

I thank the minister for reinforcing the message of yesterday's debate. On behalf of campaigners for people who suffer from asbestos-related disease and their families, I warmly welcome yesterday's announcement that steps are being taken to speed the passage of compensation cases through the Scottish courts.

Can the minister give any further details about what is intended, and can he confirm the Executive's continuing commitment to cutting through bureaucracy in order to benefit the people of Scotland?

Mr Wallace:

As Des McNulty knows, I have corresponded with the Lord President on that issue. Like Des McNulty and others in the Parliament who have taken a keen interest in the subject, I was very pleased by yesterday's announcement. I understand that the various compensation cases will be brought together and dealt with by Lord Mackay of Drumadoon, one of the Court of Session judges. We hope that that will expedite what are accepted to be very complex, but very important, cases for those who suffer from asbestosis.

I know that Des McNulty is to have a meeting in the near future with the Deputy Minister for Justice, Richard Simpson, and I hope that it will be possible at that meeting to flesh out the detail of the precise steps that are being taken.


Home Energy Conservation Act 1995<br />(Local Authorities)

To ask the Scottish Executive what comparative data concerning the performance of local authorities in meeting the requirements of the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 are currently available. (S1O-4391)

The Minister for Social Justice (Iain Gray):

No such data are currently available. I wrote to Mr Brown on 21 December, advising him that we would consult local authorities on whether details for individual authorities might be published in their second progress reports, which are due on 31 January. I will receive a report soon on the outcome of that consultation and I will advise Mr Brown when a decision is made.

Robert Brown:

I thank the minister for his reply, but I remind him that Parliament is engaged in passing the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill. I also remind him that he and his predecessor have now had the matter on their desks for several months, since first I raised it. I suggest that he should not be swayed by the special pleading of councils or by the defensive attitudes of civil servants. Is he prepared to agree in principle that the new Home Energy Conservation Act 1995—HECA—reports, which are indeed due in January, should contain a straightforward breakdown of council returns, on which the public can form their own views as to the success or failure of their local councils on the crucial issue of energy conservation? Was not that the original purpose of the 1995 act?

Iain Gray:

I appreciate Mr Brown's intention in pursuing the matter, as well as his concern that we move towards the long-term 10-to-15 year targets that HECA places on local authorities. I have an open mind about publishing data on individual performance, but we must take account of the fact that local authorities are our partners in delivering improved home energy efficiency, and that it is right and proper to seek their views on the form in which the data are published.

In considering whether it is possible to move in the direction that Mr Brown suggests, we must think about how we can prevent misleading and unfair comparisons that might, for example, fail to take account of the different baselines from which different local authorities begin. I repeat that I have an open mind about publishing the data, and I will make a decision soon regarding the second HECA progress reports.

Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):

Anent misleading and unfair comparisons—I have asked this question twice already in the chamber—the Executive maintains that it is making actual energy savings through its policies. When will the Executive present figures that show that actual reductions in the use of electricity and gas have occurred as a result of its energy policy?

Iain Gray:

As I said in answer to Mr Brown's question, as part of their response to HECA, authorities have been asked to submit current progress reports by the end of this month. Those reports will be issued soon. Under the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001, we are committed to tackling fuel poverty. The act requires us to make a statement on that matter in the next 12 months. That statement will provide us with an opportunity to address the issue that Mr Harper raises.

Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP):

Given that the Executive's warm homes deal is at the centre of its energy conservation plans, can the minister investigate whether private tenants are benefiting from it more than council tenants? I know of a number of cases in which council tenants have been left freezing while in the same street private tenants are getting help quickly. Is that problem caused by the fact that councils prefer to deal with streets as a whole, or is there a more sinister reason for it, such as repairs being held back because of the Glasgow housing stock transfer?

Iain Gray:

Repairs are certainly not being held back because of the Glasgow housing stock transfer. However, if the member is aware of specific instances in which she fears that that might be the case, and if she can provide me with the relevant information, I will be more than happy to investigate those cases.


Small Businesses

To ask the Scottish Executive how it is seeking to promote small businesses throughout Scotland. (S1O-4389)

The Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning (Ms Wendy Alexander):

The Executive is working with the enterprise networks to stimulate the creation, competitiveness and growth of small businesses. It is doing so particularly through the small business gateway, which is easing access to advice and improving the quality of business support in Scotland.

Mr Home Robertson:

We all understand that Opposition politicians have a vested interest in trying to spread doom and gloom in the countryside. Will the minister acknowledge the remarkable success, with the support of public agencies, of small businesses throughout rural Scotland? That success is exemplified by the organic bakery in the village of East Saltoun in my constituency, which has doubled its turnover and trebled its work force. I invite the minister, if she has an opportunity to do so, to visit the highly successful farmers market in Haddington, which is going from strength to strength by selling excellent local produce, such as organic bread from East Saltoun.

Ms Alexander:

I thought that the member was going to invite me to the bakery in East Saltoun. I suggest that he encourage the bakery to join the farmers market in Paisley, of which I have become a regular patron as we rethink the future of our town centre.

I would like to know whether the bakery is run by a woman, because the business start-up rates of women in rural Scotland are not mirrored in urban Scotland. If we were able to match in urban Scotland the business start-up rates of women in rural Scotland, we would improve substantially our overall business start-up rate.

On a serious note, the most important thing that we have done to provide more consistent advice and support to businesses in small rural communities is to make all information and advice services available online so that, when they seek to access support and advice, people are not disadvantaged by their geography, as was the case in the pre-internet era.

Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):

I would like to introduce a dose of reality to this love-in of complacency and self-congratulation. Does the minister even begin to acknowledge that there is, as a result of her policies on small business, a crisis in the Scottish economy? Does she acknowledge that in the past year the economy of the rest of the United Kingdom grew eight times faster than that of Scotland and that, in the latest year for which figures are available, the standard of living of people in independent Ireland grew 18 times faster than that of the people of Scotland? Is the minister even aware of the problem that she faces, or is she totally complacent and unwilling to act?

Ms Alexander:

I can add two pertinent statistics to those that Andrew Wilson cited. In the past year twice as many electronics jobs have been lost in Ireland as have been lost in Scotland, and there has been a decline in inward investment there. In Ireland the small business start-up rate is also much lower than the rate in Scotland. Those statistics indicate that we need policies that are right for Scotland. We need to reposition ourselves for foreign direct investment—in that respect, we face the same challenge as Ireland does. We must seek not only to better Ireland's record on small business start-ups, but to get much closer to the Norwegian rate.

Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con):

I will go back to the original question, which was on small businesses. Since last year, when the minister produced a series of proposals that have obviously failed to operate, has she developed any new proposals on how to encourage small businesses not only to open but to survive?

Ms Alexander:

I challenge the notion that the proposals have been a failure. The data for 2001 suggest that the decline in small business start-ups is being reversed. That is encouraging news. [Interruption.] Come off it—the statistics show that the decline in small businesses is being reversed.

The reasons for the reversal can be found in four new policies, which I will cite. The first policy has been mentioned already: information is now available online to everyone. The second is that we spent the past year ensuring that people who work for local enterprise companies have gone through a training programme to accredit them to give business advice, so that we no longer have such variable quality as existed in the past. The third is that the Administration has introduced a business mentoring scheme and the fourth is that we have introduced a business growth scheme. Those four specific proposals are helping to deal with the business start-up issue.

I call Jamie Stone.

Members:

Cheese!

Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):

My question is not about cheese, Presiding Officer. [Laughter.]

The Conservative party does not realise that the euro will be very good for businesses when we join it—I hope that that day will come soon. The Conservatives are completely out of touch on that issue. What has the minister done in the past, and what does she intend to do in future, to advise and prepare our vital small businesses for that happy day?

Ms Alexander:

I am tempted to suggest a trade for Jamie Stone's family cheese business: perhaps it would supply the Paisley farmers market if I offered to pay in euros. However, the substantive question was on the preparedness for the euro of small businesses. Members from all parts of the chamber might know that Scotland Europa has been active in providing workshops, publications and a website. In addition, a telephone hotline is available to help Scottish businesses prepare for the implications and the actuality of the euro.


Her Majesty's Government (Partnership)

To ask the Scottish Executive what role partnership with Her Majesty's Government will play in delivering its priorities for the year ahead. (S1O-4401)

The Executive will continue its positive working relationship with the UK Government in the year ahead.

Rhoda Grant:

Can the Deputy First Minister reassure me that tackling poverty will remain a key feature of the discussions between the Executive and Her Majesty's Government? In particular, can he assure me that indicators that are used to identify rural poverty will take fair account of life in rural areas? For example, dependence on cars is high but that high level of car dependence and ownership masks rural poverty.

Mr Wallace:

I can confirm that tackling poverty is an objective both of this Administration and of the UK Administration. Given the different responsibilities of the two Governments, co-operation and partnership are important. On the specific question that was asked by Rhoda Grant, although some of the indices of deprivation that were used in the 1980s included car ownership, it was not used as an indicator in the recent "Fair Shares for All" funding allocation to NHS health boards, which included a weighting for rurality. I am sure that the Parliament will be aware that the Minister for Environment and Rural Development, Ross Finnie, has set up the rural poverty and inclusion working group, which has made recommendations for dealing with indices on rural deprivation. Rather than have a separate index of rural deprivation, it is proposed that we should consider whether there is a need to include additional indicators for aspects of deprivation that are more prevalent in rural areas.


Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

To ask the Scottish Executive when it last met representatives of the relevant community councils and local authorities to discuss the proposed Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. (S1O-4388)

The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):

Scottish Executive officials met representatives from the association of community councils and relevant local authorities at a meeting of the Loch Lomond and the Trossachs interim committee on 3 December last year. They are due to meet again in March this year.

Mr Monteith:

I thank the minister for his answer. I, too, have met a number of councillors who attended that meeting and I have received representations from those councillors on the expected increase in traffic flow in the national park. Given that the Executive has not commissioned any traffic impact studies, can he tell me whether and when he will do so, so that he can make available the necessary funding for the impact of traffic in national parks?

Allan Wilson:

I am familiar with that problem through the representations that have been made to me by the constituency member for the area, Sylvia Jackson. I am aware of the growing concern about the ability to cope of the traffic infrastructure. There might well be merit in holding discussions with colleagues in the transport department to see how the problems that manifest themselves might best be dealt with.

Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):

As the minister will know, another pressing issue for the local communities within the park area is Loch Katrine. Does the minister agree that, as West of Scotland Water moves away from its non-core business, it is most important that the water authority actively consult local communities? Does he agree that we need to implement effectively and holistically the integrated catchment management plan so that tourist, farming and forestry facilities are not hived off to different agencies without the necessary linkages that are required for national park management? Following that, does he agree that we need always to remember that sustainable development of the national park area must be the central issue?

Allan Wilson:

I believe in an integrated management strategy for the park area, which is what that question hints at. The water companies should play a pivotal role in that. However, I do not wish to pre-empt the discussions that the Transport and the Environment Committee will have on community consultation when it considers Des McNulty's amendment to the Water Industry (Scotland) Bill, which the committee is currently considering.

I pay tribute to the work that Sylvia Jackson and Ross Finnie have done in ensuring that community consultation takes place with the water company that has responsibility for Loch Katrine.


Fishing Industry (2002 Quotas)

13. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive what assessment it has made of the likely economic impact on the fish catching and fish processing industries of the 2002 quotas for white fish and for pelagic fish landings and what action it plans to take to mitigate any detrimental effects. (S1O-4412)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

The increases in quotas of key pelagic and white fish stocks will have a significant and, I hope, positive impact on the catching and processing sectors in Scotland. The economic return from increased landings for the United Kingdom is estimated to be between £10 and £12 million more than for the previous year. Scotland will be the major beneficiary of that. I believe that those outcomes have been welcomed by the industry.

Tavish Scott:

I welcome the minister's answer and I welcome the additional quota allocations that have been secured for the Scottish fishing industry this year. However, does the minister accept that there are pressures on shore-based services in constituencies such as mine? Because of the welcome decommissioning programme, there are fewer boats to use engineering, electronics and other shore-based services. In that context, what assessment is being made of shore-based services? Does the minister have any proposals to tackle those problems?

Ross Finnie:

There are two aspects to that question. The first aspect relates to the total amount of quotas. The member will be well aware that the fish processing action group continues to study the problems that beset the processing industry not only in Shetland but throughout Scotland. Those problems arise as a consequence of the recent cuts. We in Scotland continue to press the Commission for multi-annual settlements, which could give a degree of certainty about the amounts of fish that might be available for processing.

As for the problems that are consequent on decommissioning, we are looking closely at the impact that decommissioning might have on services. I am bound to say that, although we now know the numbers of vessels and the ports that they use, it is difficult to give an answer at this stage. In conjunction with other departments, we are assessing and keeping a careful watch on the impact that decommissioning might have. The member can be assured that we recognise that there are consequentials that flow from that step.

Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):

What discussions have the minister and his colleagues had about providing support to people who worked on fishing vessels, given that only the owners will be compensated for decommissioning? Has an economic assessment been undertaken of the effect of decommissioning on the fish processing sector?

Ross Finnie:

Let me take the latter question first. As Stewart Stevenson will be aware, the objective and great hope of the decommissioning scheme is that it will give greater sustainability to the whole industry. If the quotas are acquired within the producer organisations, decommissioning should not per se lead to a reduction in the amounts available to the processing industry. Greater sustainability has to be the earnest hope of us all.

The processing industry suffers because of uncertainty over the amounts that may be available. As I indicated to Tavish Scott, we in Scotland are keen to push the Commission in the direction of multi-annual settlements, which would, I believe, give greater certainty.

Dealing with the economic impact on those affected by decommissioning is, as Stewart Stevenson would acknowledge, slightly more difficult. The owners are being compensated, but we have not made a distinction—although we will as we go through the process—between those who have direct responsibility for the people who are employed and those who are not affected in that way and who will not, therefore, share in the benefits. We will watch the situation closely. We do not know the exact details, but we are cognisant of the problem.

Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

Why, despite the acceptance that industrial fishing is detrimental to the marine food chain, has no significant cut been made in the quotas for that sector, especially in the fishing for Norway pout, which leads to a large bycatch of immature fish of other species?

Ross Finnie:

The reason such a cut was not made is that we did not secure a sufficient majority in the Commission during recent discussions. The consistent position of the Scottish Executive—and, I hope, of the UK Government—has been to press for continuing cuts in those areas. We very much agree with Jamie McGrigor's point and we will continue to press for reductions in those quotas.

Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab):

Does the minister agree that one of the major problems facing the demersal sector in particular is the difficulty in finding crews for fishing vessels? Does he agree that the decommissioning of fishing boats might provide an opportunity for the skippers of vessels to take on qualified and experienced crew members?

Ross Finnie:

Yes, I agree. The issue is linked to the one raised by Stewart Stevenson. The ramifications of decommissioning are more complex than simply saying that all those who lose their vessel as a result of decommissioning will necessarily lose their jobs. Rhona Brankin's point is valid.


Sustainable Development

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making in mainstreaming sustainable development across all areas of policy. (S1O-4403)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

I hesitate to give this answer because, in yesterday's debate, Sarah Boyack eloquently explained how such mainstreaming had been achieved. However, I will do my best if not to better what she said, at least to match it.

Sustainable development has been placed at the centre of our programme for government. The ministerial group on sustainable Scotland remains a key element in that approach and the First Minister has undertaken to chair the group from its next meeting on 30 January. At that meeting, the group will give final consideration to the Scottish Executive's overarching statement on sustainable development and the set of indicators that are required, whose production was announced earlier last year. Those indicators will be fundamental building blocks for the integration of sustainable development into all policies and programmes over the next few months. In particular, they will cover waste, energy, transport and planning in the spending review in 2002.

Sarah Boyack:

In producing indicators, what plans does the Executive have to monitor the progress made on developing renewable energy to the target of 18 per cent by 2010? What plans does the minister have to develop the target beyond 18 per cent, if we are to make the most of the manufacturing and economic benefits from developing renewables and use the potential that exists across the whole of Scotland?

Ross Finnie:

There are two elements to that question. If we put indicators in place, as we propose to, it will follow that we must be able to monitor and measure the outcomes.

On the specific target, I announced that the recent report indicating that we have vast potential for developing renewable energy means two things: first, that there is an opportunity to revise the target and consider moving closer to the current European target of 21 per cent; and secondly, that to do that would require the Executive—my department in harness with that of my colleague Wendy Alexander—to work closely with the industry to encourage it to take up the opportunities that the report identified.