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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 15 Jun 2000

Meeting date: Thursday, June 15, 2000


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):

Before we start question time this afternoon, I want to say several things about the points of order that were raised at the close of the previous three question times.

First, I always carefully read the Official Report on question time to see what lessons we can learn; the record is not simply ignored afterwards.

Secondly, to give an illustration of the problem, members might be interested to know the number of questions that were asked last week. Seventeen members had their questions called, together with supplementaries. In the course of the hour, 19 other supplementaries were called and 36 were not called. I point that out because, each time a member approaches me on this subject, they seem to think that I have selective myopia. That is not true; the fact is that many questions are not called. The shorter and sharper the exchanges, the more members will be called.

Finally, members will remember that, last week, I had to stand and ask a member to sit down. The member explained that it was not her fault; because of the noise, she simply could not hear my two previous invitations to sit down. The less noise we have, the faster we will get on.


Holocaust Memorial Programmes

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to develop Holocaust memorial programmes in Scottish schools and communities. (S1O-1936)

The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock):

The answer is yes. A teaching pack is being developed for use in P6 and P7 in primary schools. We are also discussing what support might be offered to the City of Edinburgh Council, which will be hosting the Anne Frank exhibition in January 2001.

Ian Jenkins:

I welcome the minister's answer, particularly the information about the packs. I understand that there might also be an exhibition at Kelvingrove.

The minister will agree that, although this episode in our history shows mankind at its most inhumane, it gave rise to deeds of courage and fortitude that brought families to Scotland. Will the minister consider creating a national memorial to mark Scotland's remembrance, with the National Archive of Scotland perhaps establishing a programme of education and culture to remind our youngsters to avoid the politics of exclusion, intolerance and hatred?

Peter Peacock:

Obviously I agree with Mr Jenkins about the sheer horrific nature of the Holocaust and that we need to keep reminding people about that through schools and other available mechanisms. Mr Jenkins will know that plans for a Holocaust memorial day on 21 January 2001 are being led by the Home Office. The Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office are involved in those plans and we are about to involve local authorities. I am happy to feed Mr Jenkins's points into those discussions.


Ambulance Service

To ask the Scottish Executive how the initiative Beyond 2000 will benefit the Ambulance Service. (S1O-1957)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon):

The Scottish Ambulance Service initiative Beyond 2000 is designed to modernise and therefore improve services for patients. It will review three key operational areas: non-emergency services; operations control rooms; and the emergency service. All those reviews are being taken forward in full consultation with staff, patient representative groups and the wider national health service in Scotland.

Mary Scanlon:

Does the minister believe that a priority-based dispatch system is the best means of improving response times? Furthermore, does she share concerns that the interrogation in 999 calls might result in less assertive callers being given a lower priority?

Susan Deacon:

There is a clear recognition of the need to explore fully and effectively a priority-based dispatch system. For that reason, in March, the Executive allocated £100,000 to conduct an evaluation in that area. I am very grateful for the Scottish Parliament Audit Committee's report on the Scottish Ambulance Service, which was published today and will contribute to this discussion. There is a real desire to work to improve the available service; to do that, the area must be fully explored.

George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):

As the National Audit Office report published in 1999 revealed, ambulance response times are a problem in sparsely populated areas such as my constituency of Argyll and Bute, where 10 per cent of ambulances failed to arrive in the target time. What action is being taken to target that low success rate?

Susan Deacon:

As my previous answer indicated, a range of measures are going forward. We want to build on the Ambulance Service's good record and examine ways in which it can be developed and improved. Those ways will vary in different parts of the country. As we know, rural areas have particular health care delivery needs. That is why the remote and rural resource initiative that was established in Inverness is significant. It provides an opportunity to examine the overall health needs of rural communities and to explore ways of delivering health services that will best meet those needs. All that will contribute to improvements in those areas.


Voluntary Organisations (Consultation)

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are being taken to remunerate adequately voluntary organisations for their expertise and time contributed in respect of the consultation period on rape and domestic violence issues. (S1O-1946)

The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie):

The Scottish Executive seeks to include the views of the voluntary sector wherever possible in its policy-making process. It is for organisations to decide whether and how to respond on any given issue. It would not be feasible or practical to build a scheme of payments into the consultation procedure.

Mr Paterson:

I am sorry to hear that. Will the minister comment on a letter that was sent to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee this week by the Zero Tolerance trust, which reluctantly declined to give evidence? In the past two months, members of the trust have spent six days in this Parliament giving evidence. The trust pays for the associated costs out of its own pocket. The Parliament cannot do without such a group's expertise and knowledge. It would be good if the Executive could come up with some money to help voluntary organisations that come before the Parliament.

Jackie Baillie:

Many voluntary organisations welcome the opportunity to have an input into developing Government policy and perhaps to change the Government's intentions. The case that Mr Paterson refers to, in relation to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, is a matter for the Parliament, not the Executive.


Youth Crime

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to tackle youth crime. (S1O-1951)

On Friday 9 June, we published the advisory group's report on youth crime together with the Scottish Executive response to its recommendations. Copies of both were placed in the Parliament's reference centre.

Karen Whitefield:

The minister will be aware that those between the ages of 16 and 24 account for 41 per cent of all persons convicted of crimes and offences. Does he agree that providing increased employment and training opportunities is one of the ways of reducing that statistic and that initiatives such as the new deal play an important part in the fight against youth crime?

Mr Galbraith:

It is important to treat not just outcomes but the causes behind them. There is no doubt that increased employment and giving people a future in life and a stake in society are absolutely vital in dealing with crime. However, folk will continue to commit crimes and it is important that we deal with them effectively. Simply banging them up does not reduce the rate of reoffending. That is why we have looked at tough options, including making offenders confront what they have done—and sometimes confront their victims—and become involved in reparation. We have put £4 million into that. Increased employment, along with those new measures, can finally deal with the scourge that is present in some parts of our society.

What proportion of the massive 17 per cent increase in the incidence of weapon carrying was made up of those currently classified as young offenders? What does the minister intend to do about that issue?

Mr Galbraith:

We must be wary about the use of crime statistics because, often, the numbers are dependent on the amount of activity that goes into targeting the issue.

We have to deal with young offenders effectively. That is not a question of choosing a tough or an easy option; it is about choosing the right option. The right option is to prevent them from reoffending. Clearly, many of the measures that have been employed—including banging people up—do not work, which is why we have introduced a range of other tough options.

Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP):

Does the minister accept that high unemployment, a lack of local facilities, poor housing conditions and the ever-present menace of drugs—all of which exist in the Robert Street area of Port Glasgow, which was long ago promised a housing action area that has never materialised—are major contributing factors to a high level of youth crime? What reassurances can he give to the residents of areas such as Robert Street that their plight will be addressed effectively and swiftly?

Mr Galbraith:

I am surprised at that question. Members should listen to the answers that are given—that question was similar to the one that was asked by Karen Whitefield. I said to her that we must consider the total approach and the social circumstances. That is why we should applaud the fact that this country has the lowest unemployment rate and the highest number of people in employment in 20 years. We forget such facts, but we should congratulate the Executive on those achievements instead of constantly talking them down.


Scottish National Dictionary Association

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to secure the financial viability of the Scottish National Dictionary Association. (S1O-1941)

The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin):

I am arranging for a grant of £50,000 to be made available to the SNDA to enable it to continue preparatory work for the Scottish dictionary database. The grant will be paid through the Scottish Arts Council, which will continue to monitor the SNDA to ensure that the extra public funding is used most effectively.

Irene McGugan:

I thank the minister for that answer, which I am sure will reassure the SNDA. Does the minister accept that Scots is an important element of our culture and that the SNDA is doing more than any other body to preserve it and to encourage its use, albeit on very limited means? Is she aware that other countries cherish their languages and that support for Swiss German and Frisian dictionaries has been increased? I hope that that approach will be emulated in Scotland.

Rhona Brankin:

The Scottish Executive considers the Scots language an important part of Scotland's distinctive linguistic and cultural heritage. We feel that it is important for young people to have access to Scots—they should have the chance to study and learn about Scots in schools. The Scots language is under consideration as part of the national cultural strategy.


Rural Schools

To ask the Scottish Executive how many rural schools are currently threatened with closure. (S1O-1942)

The Scottish Executive does not collect systematic information on the schools that education authorities may have under review for possible closure.

Mr Hamilton:

Is the minister aware of the comments of the English minister with responsibility for schools, Jacqui Smith, who said at a conference that the UK Government had managed to reduce the rate of closure of rural schools to an eighth of what it was 10 years ago and that it had reduced the average number of closures from 30 a year to four a year? Will he reflect on the fact that, rather than a reduction in the number of school closures in rural communities in Scotland, there has been an acceleration of that process due to local government cuts? Will he tell us when the Executive will finally fund local government properly, to ensure that local rural schools become a national priority?

Mr Galbraith:

I am aware of Jacqui Smith's comments, but I am surprised that, once again, Mr Hamilton is being London led and does not think that we should have distinctive policies here. [Interruption.] There is some shouting from a sedentary position. I could not hear what John Swinney said, but if he writes to me I shall answer his question later.

The other interesting aspect of Mr Hamilton's question is that he is concerned specifically with Argyll. We should all be aware that the proposals for the closure of rural schools in Argyll come from the nationalist convener of the local authority and that, therefore, Mr Hamilton should speak to him. However, I realise that the nationalists cannot speak to one another, as they are busy fighting all the time.

What are the minister's views on the proposed closure of St Vigeans school in Arbroath by the SNP-controlled Angus Council?

Mr Galbraith:

I thank Alex Johnstone for once again highlighting the SNP's record on closing rural schools. As he will realise, we, too, have a role to play in the closure of some of the schools, so I cannot comment on the case.

We recognise the importance of rural schools not only for the education of the children, but for the role that they play in the rural communities. That is why it is important that we analyse these issues carefully and make decisions that are based on sound educational values as well as on other matters. SNP members should not go around taking up political postures and saying, ridiculously, that no school should ever be closed when, at the same time, nationalist conveners are doing the closing.

Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP):

Members should note that the proposed closure of St Vigeans is backed by all parties in Angus Council—including the Conservatives. Does the minister accept that outside toilets and inadequate buildings are simply not good enough for Scottish education in the 21st century? Will the Executive make available capital amounts that will allow local authorities to bring local rural schools up to 21st century standards?

Mr Galbraith:

We make capital allocations available to all local authorities, including Angus Council. They have all agreed to give priority to schools. If, however, Angus Council chooses not to do so, that is again something that members should take up with the council.


National Health Service (Resources)

Question 7 is from Margo MacDonald. [Applause.]

Oh dear—and those members of other parties have not even heard the question.

Do not respond, Ms MacDonald.

She has been gagged.

Ms MacDonald:

Now that would be a first.

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will institute a review of bed capacity, medical and ancillary facilities for the new Edinburgh royal infirmary in advance of the implementation of the Arbuthnott report on the distribution of NHS resources. (S1O-1918)

Bed capacity, medical and ancillary facilities for the new Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh are matters for Lothian Health and Lothian University NHS Trust to consider.

Ms MacDonald:

Thank you. I knew that already. I am sure that the minister expected me to ask whether she would ensure that the orthotics facilities, which are currently located in the Princess Margaret Rose hospital, would be greatly upgraded when they move to the new infirmary. She also probably expected me to ask whether we could have a decent number of orthopaedic beds, as too many people seem to be complaining that there are not enough. However, I will ask the minister to ensure that the absolutely excellent bereavement service for child bereavements, which is currently located in the sick kids hospital, is maintained throughout the upheaval that will lead to the establishment of the new hospital. I have received any number of endorsements of how good the service is.

Susan Deacon:

I am delighted that Margo MacDonald was able to join us today to ask me that series of questions. On this side of the chamber, we presume that Ms MacDonald is still addressing us on behalf of the SNP; no doubt we will be advised on that later.

I am obviously not in a position to deal with the many detailed issues concerning the new Edinburgh royal infirmary that Margo MacDonald raises. I am pleased to say, however, that Lothian Health has made progress on those issues, and many others, to ensure not only that the new infirmary meets the needs of the people of Edinburgh, but that the wide range of other community facilities that are being developed across the city meet the needs of the people of Edinburgh and the surrounding area now and in the years to come. It is worth remembering that the people of Edinburgh and the Lothians have waited decades for a new hospital. Within the next couple of years, they will have that new hospital, which will provide the appropriate modern facilities that they ought to have.

I am pleased to agree with Margo MacDonald about matters such as bereavement counselling. No matter how high-tech our health service is, it must retain the human touch that is so important for patients. The ability to counsel the families and relatives of those who are ill is important. Such facilities must be protected.

Question 7 refers to the Arbuthnott report. Will the minister indicate to the chamber the present position on the review of that report and will she say when the report will finally be implemented?

Susan Deacon:

I am delighted to give Margaret Smith—and, indeed, the whole chamber—the information that I was asked for when I recently attended the Health and Community Care Committee. The Arbuthnott review will put in place a fairer system of allocating some £5 billion of national health service resources across Scotland, to address in particular the needs of deprived and rural areas. Following extensive consultation, the Arbuthnott group is now working its way through the various responses that have been received. I expect to receive the revised recommendations from that group by the end of June and hope to be in a position to make a statement to Parliament very soon after the summer recess.


Rural Transport

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made in increasing transport choices for rural communities. (S1O-1965)

Our rural transport and public transport funds are providing significant additional resources to improve transport in rural Scotland. We are also giving the highest ever level of subsidy to lifeline air and sea services.

Does the minister agree that, as many people in rural areas do not have access to a car, a key issue in such areas is ensuring that there is quality, affordable, reliable public transport?

Sarah Boyack:

I agree absolutely. That is why we are making funds available through the rural transport fund to make sure that local authorities can make the needed investment. For example, the fund provides for around 350 local bus services that would not otherwise be in existence. We will review the impact of that investment to see whether we can better target it to reach the parts of rural Scotland where affordable services are needed but are not commercially viable.

Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con):

Will the minister accept that the various forms of road transport are necessarily the principal transport choice for rural communities? Will she indicate whether she is seeking, in the next comprehensive spending review, to make steadily increasing resources available from her budget to fund route action plan schemes for the many important trunk roads in rural areas?

Sarah Boyack:

I agree absolutely that for many people in rural communities the car is their lifeline. That is why we are putting money into rural petrol stations to make sure that they stay open and why I announced in November that a number of trunk roads and routes in rural areas will get significant investment. Examples include the road to Mallaig and the Fochabers to Mosstodloch bypass. We are spending money on trunk roads and I shall be making a number of suggestions in the comprehensive spending review this summer about investment in transport. It will not be until the autumn that we will be able to reveal the results of those discussions.

Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):

Does the minister also agree that the only transport choice for many, if not most, people in rural Scotland is the car, and that the car is a necessity, not a luxury? Will she now accept what everybody in the Highlands and Islands knows to be true, that we have the highest fuel costs and fuel tax in the world? Is the ultimate purpose of new Labour policy to make pedestrian transport the only choice—to paraphrase George Orwell, two legs good, four wheels bad?

Sarah Boyack:

This is like "Play it again, Sam"—last week a member of the SNP asked me the same question about rural fuel duty. I said then that the SNP's budget for Scotland at the elections to this Parliament included the full weight of the fuel duty escalator until the year 2034. In the budget this year, Gordon Brown took his foot off the fuel tax accelerator. There will be benefits to people throughout the Highlands and Islands in the investment that is now going into rural roads.


Education Research

9. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive what the reasons are for its proposal to withdraw funding support to the Scottish Council for Research in Education and what its proposals are to provide an alternative source of independent research into education. (S1O-1927)

The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith):

The Scottish Executive has not withdrawn funding from the Scottish Council for Research in Education. The Executive is committed to encouraging independent research and is spending £1.38 million this year in commissioning research projects on education from a range of academic and independent sector organisations.

Tavish Scott:

Will the minister accept that I have received representations from constituents who, as head teachers of rural schools—indeed, open and thriving rural schools—have commented that the bulletins that they receive from SCRE are informative and helpful? Does he agree that Scottish education needs research, including research that comes to conclusions that are sometimes uncomfortable for the Government? In that spirit, does he accept that there must be research from bodies outwith Government? If there is not, Her Majesty's inspectors of schools may be the only source. There is a need to maintain independent research.

Mr Sam Galbraith:

I very much agree with what the member has said; that is the reason for making some changes to the nature and structure of SCRE. My view is that far too much research is commissioned by Government—giving research to SCRE means giving it to an organisation that not only has members of the Government on its board but is funded by the Government. It is important that research is uncomfortable, open, transparent, honest and initiated by the research institutions; it is important that research institutions come forward with ideas and seek funding from the Executive and others. I hope that, with that, I can fulfil all the requests to which Tavish Scott referred.

Given that the Executive has withdrawn funding from the Scottish Environmental Education Council, does it intend the council's work to continue in any other form?

I am not aware of the matter relating to the Scottish Environmental Education Council, but I will look into it and write to Robin Harper.

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):

How seriously does the Executive take independent research into education, bearing in mind the fact that the convener of its independent inquiry into student finance has said that the Government's back-end tuition fees proposals—to have an endowment repayment at £10,000—are absolutely unsustainable?

Mr Galbraith:

I must say that I am impressed by Mr Swinney; like me, he has been at Westminster and knows how to get in his question even though it is not relevant to the original one. As he asks a supplementary question that is not relevant to the main one, I will give him a non-relevant answer—I will sit down.


Higher and Further Education

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to ensure that people from low-income groups have improved access to higher and further education. (S1O-1938)

The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish):

The £50 million package of student support, to be implemented from 2001, will provide bursaries for those from lower-income groups and a £10 million bursary fund for mature students. It will exempt particular categories of students in higher education from the graduate endowment. In addition, we are increasing places in further and higher education by 42,000 by 2002. Many of those places will be targeted at those people who are currently under-represented in tertiary education, including those from low-income groups.

Euan Robson:

Will the minister look into the problem in rural areas with the up-for-learning project? Will he investigate revising that scheme so that it covers participants other than those who are redundant or who are facing redundancy? That would ensure the continuing viability of the project's outreach centres.

Henry McLeish:

I am very willing to take up that invitation to investigate the matter. It seems important that European schemes, which are often very worth while, should operate in both urban and rural contexts to the advantage of people in those areas. I will look into the matter and I will reply to Euan Robson.

What impact will the introduction of individual learning accounts have on widening access for disadvantaged groups?

Henry McLeish:

That question highlights the fact that, in our attempts to widen access to higher and further education, we need to ensure that we attack the problem on every front. We are doing that through education maintenance allowances in schools and we hope that the individual learning accounts will allow a lot of people to get involved in education for the first time. A hundred thousand accounts will be set up. A £150 contribution will be required from the Government for each account and a contribution from the individual involved will also be requested. The scheme will be a tremendous spur to the learning revolution that we want to take place. I have made a point of ensuring that we do not target people with qualifications; we want to target those who have perhaps not been involved in education to the extent that they should have been but who now want to get into the process of learning.

Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):

Does the minister agree that students from low-income backgrounds would receive more encouragement to go on to college or university if the Executive were to implement fully the recommendations of the Cubie report, which said that graduates should not have to start repayments until their income reached £25,000 per annum, as opposed to the miserable £10,000 per annum proposed by the Executive?

I simply do not accept that—

What do you say about Cubie?

Henry McLeish:

I think that John Swinney came in on the wrong question. I do not think that he can shout from a sedentary position and attempt to get in on this question.

On Dennis Canavan's question, it is important to point out for the record that the system proposed by the Cubie committee would have demanded a large bureaucracy to track every graduate each year, and to seek repayments from them every month, based on their actual income. We have chosen to work within the existing student loans system. That means that the students will pay the endowment by adding an additional £2,000 loan to their account, rather than making a separate payment of £3,075, as the Cubie committee recommended.

Students throughout the UK pay their loans back under the current scheme at 9 per cent above an income of £10,000. The additional loan will not add anything to monthly outgoings. As far as the Executive—and, I hope the Parliament—is concerned, £50 million is one of the biggest investments in student support in recent years. I do not think that we should look backwards; we should now look forwards and see how we can build on that for the benefit of students in Scotland.


Education (Parental Participation)

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are being taken to encourage parents to participate in their children's education. (S1O-1967)

The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock):

We are taking a range of measures to encourage parents to participate in their children's education. Those include a new duty on councils to include a statement on how they will involve parents in their improvement plans. We are investing £15 million through the excellence fund to support projects such as home-school link teachers and family literacy schemes.

Elaine Smith:

Would the minister agree that the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill sets the tone to enable parents—specifically those who have children with special educational needs—to have a greater say in the education of their child? That should see an end to the circumstances under which parents in my constituency feel that they have no option but to take legal action against the local authority to have their child educated in the school of their choice.

Peter Peacock:

It will always be regrettable if the relationship between parents and the local authority breaks down to the extent that parents feel that they must take court action. I would always seek to avoid that. Elaine Smith is correct to point out that the new bill sets the tone for better dialogue between parents and the school system. The bill is designed to create a framework to do that. The presumption now is that all children with special educational needs will go to a mainstream school.


Lifelong Learning

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made in ensuring that lifelong learning benefits all social groups and particularly those from the most socially excluded areas of Scotland. (S1O-1954)

The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen):

At the risk of repeating some of the points mentioned by Henry McLeish, I can say that good progress is being made in helping more people into lifelong learning. Action has included an extra 42,000 student places to help more people participate in further and higher education; extra child care funding worth £8 million; an extra £50 million package to abolish tuition fees and reintroduce bursaries; and the launch in the autumn of this year of the Scottish university for industry, along with individual learning accounts

Ms Curran:

I welcome those announcements. The emphasis on child care is particularly important. We must recognise that the causes of exclusion are profound and complex. Can the minister reassure me that the Executive recognises that to maximise participation in post-school education we must emphasise informal learning strategies and community education services and suchlike?

Nicol Stephen:

I agree that an integrated approach is essential, which means that it will not always be the traditional universities and colleges that provide the learning. Our universities and colleges are already changing the way in which they deliver their services, often providing them through learning centres out in the community and by working more closely with schools and local authorities. That partnership approach will create the changing culture that is needed for lifelong learning and to create the knowledge economy that will drive the future success of Scotland.

Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):

Does the minister agree that it is important that we monitor not only the number of youngsters entering further and higher education, but the number of youngsters who complete further and higher education? Many of my constituents are not able to complete their education, such is the pressure of poverty and being a student. Will the minister explain what the Executive will do to monitor strictly the number of students who enter and the number who complete education?

Nicol Stephen:

I agree with that. In terms of universities' retention of students and ensuring successful graduation, Scotland's position in Europe is good, but the drop-out rate among students from disadvantaged backgrounds is significantly higher than that in other social groups. That is a concern. Tackling that problem, which Tommy Sheridan rightly identifies, will require additional support and resources.

The minister mentioned the Scottish university for industry. Does the Executive have any plans to target access to it among people who live in social inclusion project areas?

Nicol Stephen:

Responsibility for ensuring access to the Scottish university for industry in areas of disadvantage will rest primarily with local enterprise companies. People will be able to contact the Scottish university for industry direct, through the internet and a freephone service. We recognise that we must get into the most deprived areas.

One of our main reasons for setting up the Scottish university for industry and individual learning accounts is to try to reach people who have not accessed learning and who are not society's traditional learners. Local enterprise companies will have a key role in marketing access to both new initiatives at local level. As part of that work, I am sure that the SIPs will be involved in discussions locally. We will try to address access in the SIP areas as a priority.


British-Irish Council

To ask the Scottish Executive when the next meeting of the British-Irish Council will take place. (S1O-1926)

Following the restoration of devolution to Northern Ireland on 22 May, member Administrations of the British-Irish Council are considering when the council should next meet in plenary session.

First, may I ask the minister to join me and, I hope, other members in wishing Tommy Sheridan and Gail all the best for their wedding on Saturday?

We can tell Alex has had an invitation.

Alex Neil:

People should not read too much into that.

Will the council establish a joint ministerial committee on pensioners and pensioner poverty? If so, will the minister learn the lessons of the Government in Ireland, where pensioners receive 30 per cent more, in real terms, than do pensioners in Scotland? Will he press for Scottish pensioners to get the same standard of living as their Irish counterparts?

Mr McConnell:

I join Mr Neil in endorsing Mr Sheridan's endorsement of the institution of marriage—I am sure that that sentiment is reflected across the chamber. Of course we wish him all the best.

The British-Irish Council exists to swap information and best practice, to conduct dialogue, to promote co-operation and to discuss the way ahead across the islands. Those are the important functions of the council as an institution. It does not exist so that its members can compete on the different levels of taxation and benefits in the different nations and areas of Britain and Ireland.

I have no doubt that the work that the British-Irish Council is doing on social justice, on which the Scottish Executive and the National Assembly for Wales lead, and the work that it will do over the coming months in drugs, will be vital to the continuing improvement of the quality of life for everyone, including pensioners, in Britain and Ireland. Pensioners are as interested in those issues as they are in the issue raised by Mr Neil.

Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):

On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I congratulate Mr Sheridan on his forthcoming nuptials.

Does the minister agree that the British-Irish Council plays, or will play, an important role in underpinning Ulster's fledgling democracy? Does he agree that it would best if that body were owned by the Parliaments of the British Isles? Will consideration be given to extending membership of the council from ministers to back benchers, to allow the Parliaments to own that group?

Just say yes, minister.

I think that Mr McConnell was overcome by the nuptials and did not pay attention to the question.

Mr McConnell:

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

As I said before—[Laughter.]—the British-Irish Council exists to allow dialogue between ministers of the different member institutions. There is a role for dialogue between the different Parliaments, which will be an important part of the dialogue that will take place over the next few years. I want to encourage that dialogue.

Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab):

Is the minister aware that I wrote to the Deputy First Minister several months ago to suggest that the meeting after the next meeting of the British-Irish Council could find no better venue than the excellent conference facilities that are available in Aberdeen?

Will the minister reflect on the experience of the Irish-Scottish forum, which was held a few days ago at the Kings College conference and visitor centre in my constituency? Now that devolution in Northern Ireland is back on track, will ministers reach an early decision that Scotland and the city of Aberdeen should play host to the meeting after the next meeting of the council of the isles?

Mr McConnell:

I am aware of the high quality of the discussions that took place in the forum. I hope that it will develop and prove a good focal point for continued discussion of British-Irish relations and the development of Scottish-Irish links. However, it is important that we choose the right location for the meeting of the British-Irish Council that will take place in Scotland. We will do that after considering all the facts and different ideas from different areas.

I will allow injury time for my opening remarks.


ScotRail

To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had on the franchise renewal process for the ScotRail network. (S1O-1931)

The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack):

Scottish Executive officials meet the shadow strategic rail authority regularly and discuss a range of matters, including franchise replacement in Scotland. I will raise that issue when I meet the chief executive of the authority later this month.

Bristow Muldoon:

As the minister will be aware, there are demands throughout Scotland for expansion of the railway network—for new railway lines, enhanced capacity on certain lines and enhanced levels of service on lines, including two in my area, the Shotts and Bathgate lines. Does the minister feel that there is any danger of a hiatus in such positive railway developments in Scotland as we approach the end of the current franchise?

Sarah Boyack:

The ScotRail franchise runs for seven years and expires in March 2004. The shadow strategic rail authority has indicated that it is keen for the process of franchise renewal and replacement to be brought forward. It is our intention to start discussing with interested parties the future shape of the franchise. That process will begin in the autumn of this year. We will focus on issues such as network enhancement, journey times, capacity, punctuality and performance. As we move towards the end of the franchise, we will examine the performance of the current franchise holders with keen interest.