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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 24 Jun 1999

Meeting date: Thursday, June 24, 1999


Contents


Question Time

The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):

The first item of business this afternoon is question time. I remind members that, during the closed question period, the member asking the question should do so without departing from the terms of the question as published in the business bulletin. Supplementary questions should be brief and should refer to the same subject as the question.

I call Michael Russell to ask the first question.


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE


Scottish Arts Council

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to bring forward proposals for a review of the structure and function of the Scottish Arts Council. (S1O-82)

No. The SAC will have a continuing and evolving role at the centre of cultural life in Scotland.

Michael Russell:

I thank the minister for his answer, although it was not the one that I was hoping for.

I draw his attention to the information bulletin from the Arts Council, a document which, as he is the minister responsible, I am sure he has read. It lists the council's committees. There are around 180 people on the list, of whom only 30 are working artists. Does the minister agree that it is important, even if the structure and function are not to be reviewed, that we find a mechanism whereby working artists can feel some ownership of the Arts Council, rather than seeing it owned by people who might have a more limited involvement in the arts?

Mr Galbraith:

That is a dreadful slur on the people who give their time freely to the Arts Council; Michael Russell should be wary about making it. He makes a point about involving working artists, but he should bear it in mind that such people often have a vested interest in the distribution of funding.

As with the Sports Council, the difficulty in trying to engage people who are active in the field is that they say that, although they would love to be involved, they do not have the time. However, I take Mr Russell's point and we will consider ways in which to involve more working artists in the Arts Council.


Small Businesses

2. Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to introduce measures to assist smaller business premises in relation to the impact of the non-domestic rates revaluation to take effect from 1 April 2000. (S1O-75) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The outcome of the revaluation, which should be fiscally neutral, will not be known for many months. Decisions on any form of special assistance will be made at that stage.

Fergus Ewing:

What kind of logic dictates that small businesses—the engine of growth in the Scottish economy—must pay 50 per cent of the full rates bill for any small shop or office that is empty, while empty industrial premises, such as the premises in Dunfermline that are not occupied by Hyundai, receive 100 per cent remission?

Mr McConnell:

We can discuss such matters when the review that is anticipated to result from the McIntosh report goes before this Parliament's Local Government Committee.

I welcome Mr Ewing's point and look forward to debating such points in the months ahead.


Voluntary Sector

3. Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to strengthen its relationship with the voluntary sector in Scotland. (S1O-108) In relation to that question, I would like to register an interest as a board member of the Volunteer Centre, which is based in Glasgow.

I will ask the Scottish Parliament to consider endorsing "The Scottish Compact" at an early stage. I plan to build on that document to promote a positive partnership with the voluntary sector.

Mike Watson:

I welcome that response and I am sure that it includes Scottish executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies.

The minister will be aware that around 50 per cent of the people in Scotland take part in voluntary activity annually. That contributes an amazing figure of almost £4 billion to the Scottish economy every year. Those figures are extrapolated from a survey that was carried out in England two years ago. Will the minister consider initiating baseline research into volunteering in Scotland? That would be of considerable benefit in mapping out the future of volunteering.

I am happy to give Mr Watson the undertaking for which he asks. We will

undertake baseline research on volunteering in Scotland to give us specifically Scottish data.


Tourist Boards

4. Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to ensure that the funding of area tourist boards operates on a sustainable basis for the next financial year. (S1O-72) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): I intend to seek views as to whether any change should be made in the method by which area tourist boards are funded.

Bruce Crawford:

Years of local authority cuts have had an impact on many services, including support for area tourist boards. Several area tourist boards are on the verge of bankruptcy—or they were at the end of the previous financial year—and that makes it extremely difficult for them. It is also difficult for local authorities to maintain their previous levels of support.

What is required is a funding package, stretching over three years, as promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in some of his early statements to the House of Commons. When can we expect the Scottish Executive to introduce plans for three-year budgeting for local authorities and other bodies—on an individual council basis— to ensure sustainability and security not only for ATBs, but for other public service organisations?

Mr Morrison:

I understand and appreciate the concerns of the ATBs. However, any review that we undertake will be done properly and will be well thought out. We will not be rushed or forced to arrive at hasty conclusions. We will initiate a review and, most important, we will listen to the views of local partners over the next few months.


Schools

5. Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on devolving responsibilities to schools as part of an overall drive to push up school standards. (S1O-103) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Devolved school management has been a great success in Scotland. It is significant in helping schools to address local priorities and fits well with our drive for continuous improvement in every school in Scotland.

How far will the responsibility for target setting be devolved to schools?

Peter Peacock:

Detailed targets are set locally, in discussion between the school and the education authority. There is scope in the system to accommodate particular local circumstances. This morning, I was in a school where that had been done very successfully. The system will be kept under review and head teachers will always have a strong role in local target setting.


Early-years Provision

6. Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on how it intends to improve the standard of early-years provision in Scotland. (S1O-110) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): We are investing £384 million in pre-school education and £91 million on child care and support for families with very young children over the next three years.

Hugh Henry:

As well as providing resources for the training of staff in the early-years sector, will the minister consider some of the models of provision that are currently available, such as the excellent Foxlea centre in my constituency, which was inspected recently? Those centres are flexible models of provision that are open much longer than traditional nurseries and in which nursery nurses play a fundamental and responsible role. Will he encourage that type of provision?

Mr Galbraith:

Yes, I certainly will. Perhaps Mr Henry knows that I visited a family centre in his former local authority and was impressed by its flexibility and the range of services on offer: that is what we want. Our policy for children is based on the child, but it must also be flexible, to ensure that we meet the needs of the parents as well. Provided that we keep those two things in mind— the needs of the parent, the needs of the child, which are paramount—I am certain that we will get it right well into the future.


Housing (People with Disabilities)

7. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to assist people with disabilities living in existing public sector housing. (S1O-78) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): To help meet the needs of people with disabilities, we will encourage the development of local housing strategies that give priority to the provision of suitable housing adaptations. Views on how best that can be done have been sought in the housing green paper.

Fiona Hyslop:

I have a particular interest in people with learning disabilities. As the minister will know, this is Learning Disability Week. Does she agree that we have a problem in that many

people with learning disabilities, living in supported accommodation, are subject to weak housing agreements? Does she further agree that we need to change that so that the small minority of people with learning disabilities enjoy the same tenancy rights as the majority of tenants in Scotland?

Jackie Baillie:

We are keen to make appropriate provision for all disabled people— including people with learning disabilities—in local housing strategies. Views on the matter have been sought in the housing green paper, and we will continue to keep it under consideration.

In the absence of a housing bill, does the minister think it appropriate that the matter be considered as part of the incapable adults bill?

As Ms Hyslop will know, in the absence of a housing bill we can deal with certain issues without legislation, as it is not necessarily required.


Fishing (Safety)

8. Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has plans to introduce a distinct scheme to promote safety improvements in the Scottish fleet in view of the termination of the Fishing Vessel (Safety Improvements) (Grants) Scheme 1995 (S.I.1995/1609), and given the special circumstances of the Scottish fishing industry. (S1O-66) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): We recognise the critical importance of safety issues for the Scottish fishing fleet. Revised European legislation under the financial instrument for fisheries guidance, which is under discussion, will include consultation with industry. We will examine the case for a separate Scottish scheme in the light of developments in the UK and of new European legislation.

Richard Lochhead:

Does the minister agree that it is ludicrous and incredibly unacceptable that the safety of our fishermen depends upon property deals in London? The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food failed to sell Covent Garden, so the deficit that was left led to the current fisheries grant scheme drying up.

Mr Home Robertson:

We should focus on our own responsibilities in this Parliament. Mr Lochhead will understand that maritime safety is a reserved responsibility.

The Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, who has overall responsibility in this area, announced that a fishing vessel safety scheme is to be reinstated. We are awaiting further details and will take a special interest in the implications of any new scheme for the Scottish fleet.

I put it to the minister that, as the scheme is having a shake-up, this is an opportune time for the Scottish Executive to take responsibility both for funding the scheme and for administering it in Scotland.

Mr Lochhead is missing the point. Maritime safety is a reserved responsibility of the Westminster Parliament. We will keep in touch with our colleagues in Westminster to ensure that Scottish interests are protected.


Culture

9. Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to fulfil its commitment to develop a national cultural strategy. (S1O-113) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): We expect to issue a consultation document shortly. We have appointed a small group of people with expertise in that area to focus on the development of that strategy.

Will the minister assure me that there will be a full process of consultation, and that the outcome of that process will be brought back to the relevant committee of the Parliament for discussion?

Rhona Brankin:

Yes, the process is intended to be as inclusive as possible. We are arranging a series of meetings over the summer in order to consult people across Scotland. We also expect that individuals and organisations will put in written submissions, if they so wish, and that the Parliament will have an important role in the consultation process.


Schools (Sport)

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to promote sport and other physical activities in schools. (S1O-100)

We are supporting the appointment of school sports co-ordinators in every secondary school in Scotland, and local authorities will receive up to £1 million of lottery funding to support the scheme in its first year.

Trish Godman:

Sir David, neither you nor the minister know this—I do not suppose that many people do—but I was no mean footballer in my day. [Laughter.] As a matter of fact, had I continued with football I might have been somewhere else rather than here—I ask members not to pass any comment about that.

I wish to ask the minister what plans there are

to encourage sports and physical activities in primary schools, when children are at a younger age.

Rhona Brankin:

I am glad to see that there is another footballer among the women members in the chamber.

The school sports co-ordinators in secondary schools will be encouraged to make links with local associated primary schools, to examine how sports can be developed in those schools. We are making additional funding available for our top sport and play programmes in primary schools. The sum of £2.1 million will be made available from the lottery sports fund to encourage people who introduce play and sport to youngsters of primary school age, and to help to support them in that work. The money will be available for facilities and materials for schools, and for coaching for primary school teachers who wish to become involved.


Teenage Pregnancies

11. Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to tackle the level of teenage pregnancies in Scotland. (S1O-74) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Tackling the serious issue of teenage pregnancies is a top priority for this Executive. We are developing a comprehensive strategy which recognises both the importance of individual responsibility and the complementary roles of the statutory and voluntary sectors. A major element of our strategy will be the health demonstration project "Healthy Respect", which was proposed in the white paper "Towards a Healthier Scotland". That will place particular emphasis on reducing unwanted teenage pregnancies.

Tricia Marwick:

Does the minister agree that poverty coupled with low expectation and lack of self-esteem are key factors affecting the level of teenage pregnancies? Will she join me in condemning the rhetoric of her new Labour colleagues south of the border, whose solution is to force single young mothers into supervised hostels, thereby continuing—not solving—social exclusion?

Susan Deacon:

The Executive very much recognises the link between poverty and ill health in many areas. The problem of teenage pregnancies is very complex and requires us to consider imaginative solutions that cut across different departments; I am discussing how to go about that with my colleagues. We will draw up appropriate plans to deal with the specific needs that we have in Scotland and which will take a sensible and mature approach to this important and complicated area.

Tricia Marwick:

I want to ask one more supplementary question. The Department of Health's new unit dealing with teenage pregnancy has been awarded £60 million over the next three years. Will the minister confirm that a similar amount will be available for projects in Scotland?

Susan Deacon:

Fifty million pounds has been allocated to the health demonstration project that I mentioned earlier. However, it is important that we spend the time in this chamber discussing what the Scottish Parliament will do instead of talking about what is going on in other parts of the UK. We have an opportunity to do that with this very important issue.


Tolls

12. Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to extend the commitment in respect of the Skye bridge to freeze tolls at their current level to other bridges and transport infrastructure schemes, in particular to the Forth, Tay and Erskine bridges. (S1O-79) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The four bridges were procured under different statutes, and have different toll levels, maintenance costs and capital debts. We will freeze the tolls on the Skye bridge at 1999 levels. Tolling at the other bridges will be considered nearer the dates when the respective rights to collect tolls expire, as set out in the relevant statutes.

Mr MacAskill:

Does not the minister agree that the Skye bridge, which we mentioned this morning during the PFI debate, was built using private finance and seeks private returns? However, the Forth road bridge, in particular, was built with public money, was paid for by the public and has been paid off by the public. Why are we still paying tolls and how will the Government and the Executive abolish them?

Sarah Boyack:

We are still paying tolls because we are still paying for the costs of the bridges. The partnership agreement commits us to freezing tolls at 1999 levels and to examine the impact of the discounted schemes that are in operation. At the moment, discounted tickets are used for one journey in two and by nine out of 10 buses and lorries. During the winter, discounted tickets are used for seven out of 10 passenger journeys in cars.


Schools

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to change the current method of target setting in schools. (S1O-80)

Our guiding principle is that every school should embrace the principle of continuous improvement. Target setting is important and we will work with schools and education authorities to make it as effective as possible.

Nicola Sturgeon:

I will take that as a no. Does the minister accept that the current method of target setting in schools has almost no support among teachers, education authorities and parents? In fact, the Scottish Parent Teacher Council has been one of the method's most outspoken critics. Does he further accept that the targets have little or no statistical validity because of their reliance on free school meal entitlement, which is an inadequate measure of the differences in school intake characteristics? Finally, does he accept that if we are to have targets that can assist in raising standards, they must be more sophisticated and bear more relevance to the individual circumstances of schools?

Mr Galbraith:

I do not agree with Nicola's first point. The teaching profession has shown support for this method of setting targets. My colleague Peter Peacock was at St Francis Primary School in Niddrie, at which teachers said that the targets were absolutely essential to enhance their school's status.

Once again, I detect the general vein of complaining about things but never coming up with something constructive. Target setting as a principle is not negotiable. What is negotiable is the ways in which target setting can be improved. I look forward to Nicola bringing her suggestions to me.


Tuition Fees

15. Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will publish figures regarding the number of Scottish students who are exempt from the payment of any tuition fees. (S1O-117) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The latest figures from the Students Awards Agency for Scotland indicate that of new entrants who made applications during academic year 1998-99, just over 50 per cent were exempt from making a contribution to tuition fees.

What provision has been made for student access funding in the higher education sector?

Somewhere between £8 million and £9 million is being spent on student access funding. In the terms of the partnership agreement that figure will rise to £14 million for those in financial hardship.


Local Government

16. Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive when it intends to establish a power of general competence for local government in Scotland. (S1O-68) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): Earlier this week the First Minister received the McIntosh report on local government and the Scottish Parliament. In that submission was a recommendation that a power of general competence be considered for councils. We are considering that recommendation in conjunction with the 29 other recommendations. We expect to have an opportunity to debate them in early July.

Mr Gibson:

I was heartened by Wendy Alexander's comments in The Scotsman yesterday: she shares our view that the recommendations of the McIntosh report should not be cherry-picked. Will the minister confirm that the McIntosh recommendations will be implemented in full, at the earliest practical opportunity, without undue procrastination? Will the minister distance himself from the negative comments made in the press yesterday by Charlie Gordon, leader of Glasgow City Council?

Mr McAveety:

As this chamber knows, those two individuals are very good friends of mine and I often support the views of Wendy Alexander and the leader of Glasgow City Council. The McIntosh commission was an opportunity to engage in the debate about the future of local government. A series of recommendations will be considered by this Parliament. I hope that Mr Gibson shares my enthusiasm for renewing local democracy in partnership with local authorities for the future benefit of everyone in Scotland.


Fuel Poverty (People with Disabilities)

17. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to implement to alleviate fuel poverty among people with disabilities. (S1O-96) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): The new warm deal will be introduced on 1 July. Householders in receipt of benefits, including disability benefits, will be eligible for a grant of up to £500 for home insulation. The annual budget will be £12 million. That is twice the amount that was spent in 1997.

Having, in the preparations for the new warm deal, prioritised private sector housing, will the minister give a similar priority to people with disabilities in both public and private housing?

The warm deal will benefit 25,000 people on low incomes. We are keen to

ensure that its benefits are widely received.


Dental Health

18. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to reduce dental decay in children under the age of 14. (S1O-111) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Dental decay is a serious problem among children in Scotland. Health boards are tackling it now through health education, incentives to dentists and other initiatives. The Scottish Executive will build on that and will develop the agenda set out in the public health white paper, working towards the target of 60 per cent of five-year-olds with no experience of dental disease by 2010.

Mary Scanlon:

Dental decay and oral cancer is the most common reason for admission of under14- year-olds to in-patient and day-care beds in Scotland. Alleviation of the problem of dental decay and oral cancer would reduce preventable pain and save money in primary and secondary health care. Will the minister take up the British Dental Association's suggestion of including oral hygiene, diet advice and registration with a dentist in standard health checks, or as part of the pre-school education programme?

Susan Deacon:

As Mrs Scanlon rightly suggests, the British Dental Association has published a comprehensive paper in which it raises a number of important dental health issues that I think the Parliament ought to consider. We in Scotland have a poor record of dental health, and we need to improve the dental health of children in particular. We will have to consider diet, oral and dental hygiene and education. I also think that this Parliament should consider the fluoridation of public water supplies, which has not been considered in Scotland for a generation.


Dumfries and Galloway

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to alter the operational boundaries of Dumfries and Galloway police force or Dumfries and Galloway fire brigade. (S1O-89)

There are no specific plans at present affecting Dumfries and Galloway but a review of the structure of police and fire services in Scotland is under way.

David Mundell:

Does the minister accept that public confidence is an important element in the provision of police and fire services and that the creation of larger and more remote brigades and forces would undermine that confidence while providing little or no service benefit to people in areas such as Dumfries and Galloway?

Angus Mackay:

I fully accept that retention of public confidence in police and fire services is critical. That is precisely why, after announcing a review, the steering group will now be composed of representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the police service and the fire service. We have repeatedly made it clear that any change to the structure of services would have to leave in place services that are both locally based and locally accountable.


Domestic Violence

20. Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has within the Scottish criminal justice system to address the issue of domestic violence. (S1O-98) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): We are determined to tackle domestic violence effectively. The Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence is developing a multi-agency strategy for tackling this very real and debilitating problem.

Roseanna Cunningham:

I am sure that everybody here will applaud any attempt to reduce this particular scourge on our society. I would like Mr Wallace to consider the available penalties. As part of the discussion, will he consider enhanced penalties for breaches of the peace where there is evidence of harassment or where there are overtones of domestic violence, and enhanced penalties for what are effectively domestic violence assaults, so that—without necessarily creating a specific crime—we nevertheless get the action that we require in the courts?

Mr Wallace:

Sentencing in individual cases is a matter for the courts. However, it is important to recognise, as Ms Cunningham does, that breach of the peace can apply to some very serious offences. The Crown often recognises that and brings the cases on indictment. In 1997, 11 breach of the peace cases were taken on indictment and a total of 1,378 people received custodial sentences for that offence. The High Court recently passed an eight-year sentence in a breach of the peace case which involved stalking.


Local Authorities

21. Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to review the criteria used for distributing Government grants to local authorities in Scotland. (S1O-101) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Major reviews of the system for distributing grants are already under way and we intend to continue them after 1 July. This week, we also intend to look carefully at the McIntosh

commission recommendations on local authority finance. We will report to the Parliament about that next Friday.

Mr McAllion:

The minister will be aware that a combination of boundary changes and mismatched funding following the move to single- tier authorities, together with the flight of the new affluent middle classes across the new boundaries and, above all, concentrations of deprivation and poverty, have badly affected councils such as Dundee and Glasgow, and left them facing the dire combination of having to charge ever higher council taxes while they are forced to make cuts in council services.

Given that only 1 per cent or so of the current criteria used to allocate funds to local authorities cover factors relating to poverty and deprivation, can the minister assure us that, as part of the review, much more weight will be given to matters relating to those factors and that the plight of Glasgow and Dundee will be addressed by the Executive?

Mr McConnell:

I am well aware of Mr McAllion's concern on those issues, which I have also discussed this week with Kate MacLean. They are serious issues; I have discussed them with officials and, over the summer, I intend to examine them and other issues further, partly as a result of the recommendations of the McIntosh commission.