Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Resumed debate.
This morning and after question time this afternoon, we will continue to deal with amendments to the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill. That will be followed by a debate on the motion to pass the bill. Members should have the bill as amended at stage 2—SP Bill 44A—the second marshalled list, which contains all the amendments that I have selected for debate today, and the groupings for day 2 of stage 3 consideration. I should notify members that the Presiding Officers have decided that the voting period will be one minute for the first division that occurs after each debate on a group of amendments. That will save about 15 minutes in the course of the day.
Section 9—Conduct excluded from access rights
We resume with the debate on amendments in group 10. The Minister for Environment and Rural Development has moved the lead amendment in that group, amendment 81.
I will try to be as brief as possible. The minister has indicated his acceptance of amendment 83A. I thank him for that.
Amendment 85A has a similar intention and we do not see that there is a problem with it. I suggest to the minister that the taking away of fruit rather than the crossing of land would be outwith the right. My concern is that if people cross land in order to pick fruit for profit or to go mushrooming, where the activity does not take place on the land that is being crossed, those people will end up being challenged. As the minister will know, mushrooming is becoming a major activity in some parts of Scotland, so I urge him to consider accepting amendment 85A.
I am astonished by amendment 42. As a walker, I am concerned that agreement to amendment 42 would mean that I would be in trouble if I woke up a cow when I was walking. That is the import of the amendment. It is amazing that amendment 42 provides no definition of what it would mean to disturb any wild or farm animal. The biggest disturbance that a rabbit is likely to experience is terminal disturbance at the end of a farmer's shotgun. I am sure that being disturbed or frightened by a walker pales into insignificance in comparison with that prospect. I am not sure what the Tories are on about with amendment 42, which is a daft amendment.
I commend the SNP amendments to the Parliament.
Amendment 83B would delete the reference to fishing in Executive amendment 83. The common law on angling in Scotland is that fish in free-running water or in an open loch are not the property of anyone. When those fish are caught, they become the property of the person who catches them, irrespective of whether that person has permission to fish.
Of course, the common law is often overridden by statutory law. In particular, the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 makes it a criminal offence to catch any freshwater fish without permission in waters that are covered by a protection order.
In unprotected waters, if the owner of the fishing rights wanted to take action against any person fishing without permission, the owner would have to seek a civil interdict in a court. If someone were to cross land or access water to commit a crime, or were in breach of interdict, such activity would already be excluded under section 9 of the bill as it stands. Therefore, the inclusion of fishing in amendment 83 is unnecessary because, as I said, appropriate action could be taken by the landowner or owner of the fishing rights under section 9 as it stands.
I submit that the Executive's amendment 83, which seeks to include angling in section 9, is not only unnecessary but undesirable, because it would deprive people of the statutory right of access to land or water in order to fish, even in circumstances where it would not be unlawful to fish.
Moreover, the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 is under review; the minister referred to it yesterday. I hope that the act is repealed in its entirety and replaced with better legislation to allow more access for ordinary anglers. In the meantime, I do not think that there is a case for a specific reference to angling or fishing in the bill, which is a land reform bill rather than a bill to review the existing law on angling.
Amendment 42 is a continuation of the old adage that one should not frighten the horses. It has to be recognised that the countryside is an area that is not only beautiful and used for recreational purposes, but from which a lot of people derive their living. We seek to protect that living with amendment 42.
Increasingly, flying mechanised toy planes and other aerial devices is becoming a sport and provides recreation for many people. Such devices could cause considerable unrest and disturbance to nesting birds and present a conservation question that needs to be addressed. It must be recognised, for example, that there have been cases of pregnant ewes aborting as a result of disturbance by mechanised biplanes. In our dual-purpose amendment, we seek to protect wildlife and to ensure that farm animals are not disturbed to the extent that there is any danger to their health or well-being or difficulty with regard to business.
Does the member recognise that the point about aviation is covered by the relevant air navigation order that prohibits aircraft coming within 500ft of any animal?
Mr Stevenson has great experience of aviation, as he has of many other matters, but I point out to him that the aviation legislation applies only to piloted aircraft, so his intervention is not apposite.
I have no further points to make.
As the knife falls on this section at 9.44, I ask members to keep their remarks tight.
I rise to welcome the changes the minister has brought about to ensure that people with physical disabilities will be able to use motorised vehicles for access. It is vital that, no matter what a person's ability, they have a right of access to the countryside. For many people, that means their right can be exercised only by using an electric or motorised buggy.
Will the minister explain how the phrase "under proper control" will be defined? We all accept that it is absolutely essential that dogs be kept under proper control. That could mean keeping a dog on a lead, but might it also mean a dog that is properly trained to respond to its owner?
Will the minister also explain how, in the absence of an explicit provision, there will be adequate protection against farm animals—particularly sheep and lambs—becoming mismothered, and cows possibly contracting hypomagnesaemia?
Amendment 42 says that no one may be on any land where there is a possibility of disturbing wild animals. I suggest to Mr Aitken that the amendment seems to be a back-door, Tory attempt to ban fox hunting. If anyone goes on any land anywhere, they are likely to disturb deer, for example. Amendment 42 would effectively ban access to all Scotland's land. It is an absurd and preposterous amendment.
I support amendment 84 in Ross Finnie's name. It is important to ensure that those who take access to land make sure that their dogs are under their control and that anyone who does not have their dog under control is excluded from access to land.
Bill Aitken lodged an amendment similar to amendment 42 at stage 2. It is nothing more than a wrecking amendment. It would go against the principles of the bill, as it would mean that no one could take access to the countryside. It should be opposed.
I welcome amendment 84 because of the difficulties that uncontrolled dogs can cause to ground-nesting birds and young wildlife in general. The Scottish Gamekeepers Association has approached me to make that point. Human safety issues may also arise with cows and deer. I ask for an assurance that, in the code, the minister will consider dealing very firmly with how dogs should be controlled in areas where people are walking.
I understand the opposition to amendment 42 because it is drawn far too widely. However, I am concerned about the problem of access disrupting legitimate grouse-shooting activities. Will the minister confirm that the bill will not disrupt such activities and that access rights can be suspended for the duration of a shoot?
I will deal with amendment 42 first. I do not believe it; it is nonsense. Other members have made the point about how inapplicable such a wide-ranging amendment would be. It is a wrecking amendment and I ask members to resist it.
Roseanna Cunningham raised an interesting, if narrow, point. I will have to repeat myself but we have defined what can be taken off land and have distinguished that people can go on to land for that purpose. We are saying that there are legitimate activities that involve crossing land in order to conduct an activity elsewhere. The danger presented by amendment 85A is that it would bring back the confusion that we have sought, through the bill, to clarify. People can be on land to get access to where they are going to be hunting, shooting or fishing, but they cannot carry out those activities on that land. Amendment 85A would leave confusion about that provision.
In relation to amendment 83B, in the name of Dennis Canavan, I made it clear that we believe that the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 needs to be revised. That is the appropriate place for amendments such as that lodged by Dennis Canavan. I do not believe that the bill is the correct place to try to amend that legislation. The review of the 1976 act is under way and we expect to publish the results of that review shortly.
I cannot find the relevant sections to which I need to refer Mike Rumbles. I can be clear that there is no inhibition on the grouse moors but I will get back to him on that point.
Amendment 81 agreed to.
Amendment 82 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 83 moved—[Ross Finnie].
Amendment 83A moved—[Roseanna Cunningham].
The question is, that amendment 83A be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 88, Against 14, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 83A agreed to.
Amendment 83B moved–[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 83B be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 26, Against 77, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 83B disagreed to.
Amendment 83, as amended, agreed to.
Amendment 84 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 85 moved—[Ross Finnie].
Amendment 85A moved—[Roseanna Cunningham].
The question is, that amendment 85A be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 60, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 85A disagreed to.
The question is, that amendment 85 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 77, Against 27, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 85 agreed to.
Amendment 86 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 42 moved—[Bill Aitken].
The question is, that amendment 42 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 15, Against 90, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 42 disagreed to.
Section 10—The Scottish Outdoor Access Code
Amendment 87 is grouped with amendments 88, 88A, 170, 89, 89A, 90 and 91.
During stage 2, there was a useful discussion on the role of the access code to be drawn up by Scottish Natural Heritage. Concern was expressed about references in sections 2 and 3 to rules of responsible conduct, and those references were removed. That led to a discrepancy in the bill, in so far as sections 2 and 3 now refer to
"guidance on responsible conduct set out in the Access Code"
whereas section 10(1) talks about "rules of responsible conduct".
Amendments 87 to 89 seek to reintroduce consistency between sections 2, 3 and 10 in relation to the content of the access code. They would provide that the access code sets out guidance as to the circumstances in which those exercising access rights and the owners of land may be regarded as acting in a way that is not irresponsible in respect of access rights.
Amendment 91 is consequential to amendment 87 and would remove section 10(1A).
I acknowledge the point that Scott Barrie makes in amendments 88A and 89A, which is that the code should set out guidance not only on what is responsible conduct but on what is not responsible conduct. I am happy to accept his amendments to put the matter beyond doubt.
Amendments 90 and 170 have also been the subject of consideration in relation to the scope of the code. We have concluded that it would be appropriate to provide for the code to include guidance on the management of excluded land in so far as that affects the exercise of access rights—we referred to the matter yesterday in another context. For example, we would allow the code to provide guidance to farmers in respect of access rights through or round farm steadings, which we discussed yesterday. Along the same lines, the code should give guidance on the carrying out of activities excluded from access rights where that might affect the exercise of access rights by other people. A good example of that might be guidance about angling on a stretch of water that is also used by, among others, canoeists. We discussed that matter at stage 2. Amendments 90 and 170 seek to address those issues and the provisions that they would introduce would provide for a better access code.
I move amendment 87.
As the minister indicated, amendments 88A and 89A are simple amendments. Under the Executive amendments, the Scottish outdoor code would state which conduct is not responsible, but, under my amendments, the code would also state which conduct is responsible. I am glad to hear that the minister accepts the amendments, which would put beyond doubt exactly what is to be contained in the Scottish outdoor access code.
We do not have any real problems with any of the proposed amendments. Initially, my view and the view of my group was that amendments 88A and 89A might tighten the situation a little bit too much but, having heard Scott Barrie's explanation, we will accept them.
We, too, are pleased with the group of amendments. It is important that the code of conduct provide guidance rather than rules. We are also pleased with Scott Barrie's amendments and that the Executive has reflected on the matter.
It is important that, following the expected approval of the bill later today, the process of consultation on the Scottish outdoor access code is as wide and deep as possible. I have been approached by interested groups, including the Scottish Gamekeepers Association, that want to contribute to the deliberations. I hope that the ministers will give the appropriate guidance to Scottish Natural Heritage on the groups that should be included in the consultation process. From the answer to a parliamentary question that I received yesterday, I know that it is intended that all groups should be able to submit to that process. However, I want the minister to assure us that the consultation will be as wide as possible. The access code is as important as the bill, but because the code will be introduced by an order, the Parliament will be able only to accept or reject it. That is why it is important that the minister gives us an assurance on the matter.
I am happy to give members all the requisite assurances that the consultation on the content of the access code will involve the widest possible spread of organisations and individuals, as that will be in everybody's interest. I suspect that there is unanimity among members on that, if on nothing else. I am happy to give the assurances that Stewart Stevenson seeks.
Amendment 87 agreed to.
Amendment 88 moved—[Allan Wilson].
Amendment 88A moved—[Scott Barrie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 88, as amended, agreed to.
Amendment 170 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Amendment 89 moved—[Allan Wilson].
Amendment 89A moved—[Scott Barrie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 89, as amended, agreed to.
Amendments 90 and 91 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Before section 12
Amendment 92 is grouped with amendments 92A, 92B, 92C, 92F, 92G, 92H, 92I, 92J, 188, 44, 172 and 173. If amendment 92G is agreed to, amendment 92H will become an amendment to leave out "two years" and insert "one year". The same will apply to amendment 92J, if amendment 92I is agreed to.
We lodged a number of amendments at stage 2 to what was section 11, all of which were agreed to. However, the Justice 2 Committee then voted narrowly to remove section 11. I am still convinced that there is a need to provide in the bill a procedure that will enable local authorities to exclude land from access rights. SNH and the access forum have argued that access should be arranged locally. We agree with that completely, which is why the bill places a duty on local authorities to uphold access rights. It is entirely consistent with that approach that local authorities should have powers to exclude areas of land from access where local public interest dictates that to do so is necessary. That is why we lodged amendment 92.
It might be helpful for members who have not been closely involved with the bill if I outline some of the circumstances in which such powers might be used. Those circumstances fall into two categories—exclusions of land from access rights for a few days and relatively long exclusions.
The bill establishes rights of access to all land, except land that is specifically excluded by section 6. That means that a new charge cannot be levied for entry to land. As a consequence of that, where an event is held on land over which access rights may be exercised, there is no means of enforcing a charge for entry to that event. That would mean that no fee could be charged for entry to a village or agricultural show that is held in a local field, and that spectators could not be charged at numerous sporting events, such as athletics or autocross meetings and hill climbs. It is not our intention to threaten the viability of such events by preventing charging. At some sporting events there could be other issues, such as security, and there might be a need to restrict access. I hope that members will reflect on that and recognise the distinction that we are trying to draw.
We need a straightforward procedure for taking land out of access rights for short periods, primarily to allow charging of visitors to events. Local authorities have powers to close particular roads by order; for example, for processions or Hogmanay celebrations. Those arrangements work well, and we propose something similar in respect of access rights.
The second category of longer exclusions could again be in relation to entry charges. We have received representations from the National Trust for Scotland and others following the deletion of section 11. They are concerned that there is now no mechanism in the bill that will allow the introduction of entry charges where there has been no charge in the past. It could, for example, undermine the trust's ability to agree to take on a new property if there is no facility for charging visitors in order to offset the upkeep costs of the property.
Historic Scotland has similar concerns. If a new archaeological site was opened up, it could become an important local visitor attraction, but if there is no means of excluding the site from access rights in order to allow visitors to be charged, the site might simply have to be filled in again. That would be wrong, and I suspect that it was not what the committee had in mind when it deleted section 11.
The procedures that we have set down are onerous and I cannot see any local authority embarking on them lightly. Nevertheless, I consider it to be important that such powers are available to local authorities. We have discussed the matter with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and although some local authorities were initially not convinced of the need for the powers, COSLA has now indicated its support for what we propose.
The powers that are proposed in amendment 92 differ significantly and in several ways from those that were in the bill previously. First, although section 11 would have allowed local authorities to exclude by order particular conduct from access rights, I do not consider that such a power is necessary and amendment 92 will not provide such a power. Secondly, all orders that would have effect for six or more days would have to be confirmed by ministers. That will be considerably more onerous than the previous requirement that there be ministerial confirmation only of orders that would have effect for 30 or more days. Thirdly, local authorities will be required to review and, if necessary, remake any order not later than five years from its date of coming into force. Local authorities will be required to give public notice of the intended purpose and effect of any proposed order and to invite objections.
Amendments 172 and 173 are consequential on amendment 92.
Amendment 92A would require the order to specify the particular purpose for which the land was to be excluded from access rights. Subsection (2)(b) of the proposed new section would require the local authority to give public notice of the intended purpose and effect of an order. Having given consideration to it, we are happy to accept amendment 92A.
Amendment 92B would remove from subsection (1) of the proposed new section the clarification in brackets concerning the terms in which an order might describe the times during which land is excluded from access rights. We agree that the power should not be exercisable by reference to the "hours of darkness"—there was some confusion about the wording of amendment 92—therefore, I am willing to accept amendment 92B.
I assume that amendment 92C is intended to ensure that any order has effect only for the minimum time that is necessary to achieve its purpose. We consider that amendment to be unnecessary, given the detailed provisions that relate to the making of an order, including consultation and ministerial confirmation.
Amendment 92F seeks to prevent the making of an order contrary to the general principles of the act. Any such order would, in any case, be ultra vires; therefore, the amendment is unnecessary.
Amendment 92G calls for an order to be reviewed and, if necessary, remade every two years rather than every five years, as is currently stated in the new section that is proposed by amendment 92. We think that there is merit in that proposal. There is an issue about orders' being reconsidered, notwithstanding the necessary consultation and ministerial confirmation. I expect that very few orders will be made that will last for any great length of time. Nevertheless, I am willing to accept amendment 92G, which would reduce the review period from five years to two years.
Amendments 92H and 92J propose powers for the remaking of orders every year. We consider that to be an unreasonable provision because it would mean that an order would barely be in operation before a local authority had to consult on remaking it. We accept the two-year provision, but to reduce that to one year would be less necessary than the original proposal for renewal after five years. Therefore, I reject amendments 92H and 92J.
Amendment 188 would mean that byelaws would have the effect of excluding an area of land from access rights. As we said at stage 2 when we discussed a similar amendment, it might be appropriate for a local authority to do that in certain circumstances as part of the overall management of an area. It seems to us that management measures that were introduced by byelaws would require exclusion powers, and that the checks that will be available will ensure that local authorities cannot without good reason exclude land from access rights. That power will exist. Therefore, I ask Roseanna Cunningham not to move amendment 188.
Amendment 44 would give landowners the power to suspend access rights where the exercise of access rights would interfere with any lawful activity by, or authorised by, a landowner, or where an activity is likely to constitute a danger to any person exercising access rights. The consultation draft of the bill that was published in February last year included a provision that would allow landowners to suspend access rights. Those provisions attracted considerable criticism and similar moves to reintroduce such a provision at stage 2 were resoundingly rejected. We said at stage 2 that reasonable, responsible exercise of access rights means that landowners can continue to manage land without interference. That will be backed up by guidance in the Scottish outdoor access code. Therefore, I deem amendment 44 to be unnecessary.
Amendment 92 will provide the necessary powers for a local authority to exempt particular land from access rights for a specified period—for example, for a village show or other event. On safety, land managers have responsibilities under health and safety legislation. They will still be required to comply with that legislation, but that does not require a power to suspend access rights—we have been over this ground before in committee. The arguments in favour of the provision have been rejected and I hope that Bill Aitken will agree not to move amendment 44.
I move amendment 92.
In my view, our approach to the extent of local authority powers is critical to the operation of the bill. As the minister pointed out, concerns were expressed at stage 2 to the extent that the Justice 2 Committee decided to remove section 11 as an indication of how concerned it was about the extent of local authority powers. I accept that the new section that is proposed by amendment 92 is a revised one—we see that particularly in respect of the requirement for ministerial authority for an order being needed for an order that would last six or more days, rather than one that would last 30 or more days.
Many members reported their experiences during the foot-and-mouth crisis, when some landowners closed down huge areas of land, which was in contravention of the general rule. That situation will continue if we do not ensure that the powers that we give local authorities are not too wide. I am pleased by the Executive's acceptance of amendment 92A and other amendments—COSLA also supports those amendments. Unlike in respect of ministerial powers, there is little opportunity for the Parliament to re-examine the powers that we will give local authorities under the proposed new section, which is why it is crucial that we get it right.
I also support amendment 92B, which is in the name of Dennis Canavan. The Justice 2 Committee believed at stages 1 and 2 that the mention of "hours of darkness" had to be removed from the bill because the relation between wildlife crime and people's being in the countryside during the hours of darkness can be dealt with under our criminal law. The idea that we should normally be suspicious of people who are out on our moors or hills after dark is ludicrous. Amendment 92B is welcome.
I ask the minister to give one commitment in his summing up: if we give the new section 11 powers to local authorities and they abuse those powers, ministers will use the powers that we gave them yesterday to regulate and change section 11, if necessary.
I thank the minister for agreeing to my amendment 92B. Without it, Executive amendment 92 would have encouraged local authorities to impose what would, in effect, be countryside curfews—indeed, some local authorities might have come under pressure from landowners to impose such curfews during the hours of darkness. Some landowners seem to assume that people who walk in the countryside during the hours of darkness are up to no good and are all poachers or thieves. However, it could be argued that people walking innocently in the countryside during the hours of darkness or daylight can act as a deterrent to poachers and people who are intent on committing—[Laughter.] The Tories laugh, but I inform them that there is evidence from the rambling community that, during the recent foot-and-mouth outbreak, when walkers obeyed the advice not to go into the countryside, there was an increase in wildlife crime because some so-called estate managers had the place all to themselves and were up to no good because they could go about unobserved.
Many legitimate activities are undertaken during the hours of darkness in the countryside. Many young people go on Outward Bound Trust courses that involve overnight camping, for example, and many mountaineers and hill walkers camp out on the hills. Such activities should be encouraged and I am pleased that the minister has seen the sense in amendment 92B. I am pleased that the amendment is supported by people such as the Ramblers Association, the Mountaineering Council of Scotland and Pauline McNeill, the convener of the Justice 2 Committee. Furthermore—believe it or not—Lord Larry Whitty, the former general secretary of the Labour Party, successfully moved a similar amendment when similar legislation was being dealt with in the House of Lords. I hope, therefore, that I can rely on the support of all Labour members for this reasonable amendment.
I am glad that the minister has accepted some of the amendments. The reduction of the review period from five to two years will improve the proposed new section, although we do not believe that it fixes the situation. If amendment 92 is passed—the SNP is opposed to the amendment in its entirety—we would prefer the review period to be reduced to one year. The argument that the minister used does not hold up; after all, some of the establishments to which he referred must apply annually for drinks licences. They cannot guarantee that they can sell alcohol to their customers from one year to the next, so I do not see why the situation with regard to access should be any different.
Amendment 188 deals with the general power for local authorities to make byelaws that will exclude land from access rights. At present, a circularity seems to have crept into the legislation. The situation is complicated. Sections 6(1)(k) and 12(1)(b) refer to each other and appear to give local authorities a general power to make byelaws that will exclude land from access rights beyond the powers to regulate access in section 12(1)(a) and the powers to prohibit access for various purposes in section 12(1)(c). Section 12(1) will grant the power to local authorities to make byelaws. There are three subsections, each with separate powers. Section 12(1)(a) will allow authorities to make byelaws that will provide for
"the responsible exercise of access rights"
and
"the responsible use, management and conduct of the ownership of the land".
Section 12(1)(c) will allow authorities to make byelaws for
"the preservation of public order and safety … the prevention of damage … the prevention of nuisance or danger"
and
"the conservation or enhancement of natural or cultural heritage."
Section 12(1)(b) will allow local authorities to make byelaws for the purposes in section 6(1)(k), but section 6(1)(k) allows land to be excluded from access rights by byelaws. Byelaws that are made under section 12(1)(b) are therefore not subject to the conditions in sections 12(1)(a) or 12(1)(c). That is indicated by further reference in section 12(2) to section 12(1)(c) as a separate byelaw-making power.
We therefore need clarification of what section 6(1)(k) is for, because there is a circularity that means that any land could be exempted through byelaws. Perhaps the minister will clarify that and explain why he thinks that sections 12(1)(a) and 12(1)(c) are not broad enough without further powers.
As I said, the SNP has general concerns about amendment 92. We do not believe that local authorities should be allowed to use provisions in the bill in order—in effect—to reverse the bill's intent, but that is precisely what amendment 92 will allow. We have seen plenty of examples in which local authorities make decisions that people find incomprehensible. For example, recent decisions about taking photographs at school Christmas plays indicate some of the ways in which local authorities can interpret provisions.
Amendment 92 should be agreed to, but if it is to be agreed, I would prefer that it were amended as the SNP suggests in amendments 92H and 92J.
As the minister said, the purpose of amendment 44 is to reinsert in the bill that which it originally contained. In this case, it can certainly be argued that first thoughts were the best.
I will explain in detail why amendment 44 will be moved, because it is a commonsense amendment. Sometimes, dangerous activities are carried out on land. Those activities could be anything from shooting to the use of explosives in civil engineering operations. It is clearly unwise to have people walking on the land during such operations and, as such, farmers should have the right to exclude access to land for the period during which such activities are undertaken.
Our other argument relates to the fact that businesses can be prejudiced by unrestricted access. We do not seek to introduce to the bill some blanket condition that would restrict access for lengthy parts of the year. The most typical example is perhaps Skibo Castle, which attracts celebrities to visit because of the privacy that it is able to afford. If that privacy is lost, celebrities such as Madonna will simply not go to Skibo Castle and income will be lost to a fairly fragile rural economy. That is surely a profound argument in favour of amendment 44.
I stress that amendment 44 is not a blocking amendment. The amendment states that any land manager would be able to suspend access rights for a maximum of four weeks only in any year. We are not being unfair.
Does Bill Aitken think that to be in the vicinity of explosions would constitute responsible access, which is the only kind of access that the bill provides for?
That would clearly not constitute responsible access, but the fact of the matter is that people sometimes do things that, although they are not blatantly irresponsible, show a degree of neglect in the circumstances.
I will discuss briefly the rest of the amendments in the group. I am grateful to the minister for the full explanation that he gave in amplification of the reasoning behind amendment 92, which will enable us to support that amendment. We do not find Pauline McNeill's arguments on amendments 92A and 92C to be unreasonable; we can, therefore, accept those amendments, just as we can accept Mr Canavan's amendment 92B, despite his unreasonably aggressive advocacy of it.
However, we feel that Roseanna Cunningham's amendments 92H and 92J on time limitations are unreasonable and we will not support them. I underline that my understanding of the SNP's position on amendment 92 would result in the National Trust for Scotland not being able to open any new properties for which it could charge admission. That would surely have a most adverse effect on Scotland's heritage and I cannot believe that my colleagues in the SNP would seriously wish that to happen.
We have to get through this group and the next by 10.34—we are therefore going straight to Mr Finnie's wind-up speech.
I will respond first to Pauline McNeill's points. The ministerial order-making power as drafted does not apply to the new section 11 that will be introduced by amendment 92. However, I draw Pauline McNeill's attention to the fact that, in revising and reintroducing section 11, we have included a requirement for ministerial confirmation. Therefore, the same consideration can be given to determining whether we will, when an application has gone all the way up, be required to provide an adequate check and to explain why the power to exempt land from access rights is or is not being granted. I suggest that the new provisions will provide a very different level of check than was previously the case, and that they will give protection against the potential abuse of local authority powers.
I am grateful for Dennis Canavan's understanding of our present position, so I now move on to address Roseanna Cunningham's general point about some members' opposition to amendment 92. Other members have recognised that there are activities that simply would not take place for the purposes of developing cultural interests or otherwise. I am bound to say that there are several championship golf courses in Scotland—one of which is, I think, in Roseanna Cunningham's constituency—that would be incapable of holding such events were amendment 92 not agreed to. We have to consider the practicality of the question.
On amendment 188, if local authorities are to be responsible in the way that we suggest for local management of access, they will require amended powers to exclude specific pieces of land. That is provided for under amendment 67.
Amendment 44 would give again powers that are already in the bill. As has been mentioned both at stage 2 and at this stage, many of us were influenced by what happened during the foot-and-mouth outbreak, so I resist amendment 44.
The minister has said that he will accept amendment 92A, so—to save time—I ask Pauline McNeill simply to confirm that she wishes to press the amendment.
Amendment 92A moved—[Pauline McNeill]—and agreed to.
Amendment 92B moved—[Dennis Canavan]—and agreed to.
Amendment 92C moved—[Roseanna Cunningham].
The question is, that amendment 92C be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 46, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 92C disagreed to.
Amendment 92F not moved.
Amendment 92G moved—[Pauline McNeill].
The question is, that amendment 92G be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 92, Against 17, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 92G agreed to.
Amendment 92H not moved.
Amendment 92I moved—[Pauline McNeill].
The question is, that amendment 92I be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 93, Against 17, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 92I agreed to.
Amendment 92J not moved.
The question is, that amendment 92, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 83, Against 27, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 92, as amended, agreed to.
Section 12—Byelaws in relation to land over which access rights are exercisable
Amendment 186 moved—[Stewart Stevenson].
The question is, that amendment 186 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 29, Against 80, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 186 disagreed to.
Amendment 93 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 187 moved—[Stewart Stevenson].
The question is, that amendment 187 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 25, Against 80, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 187 disagreed to.
Amendment 94 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 188 moved—[Roseanna Cunningham].
The question is, that amendment 188 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 28, Against 81, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 188 disagreed to.
After section 12
Amendment 44 moved—[Bill Aitken].
The question is, that amendment 44 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 16, Against 93, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 44 disagreed to.
Section 13—Duty of local authority to uphold access rights
We move to group 13, on the functions and powers of local authorities. We are very tight for time; the knife falls at 10.34.
In the interest of brevity, I simply point out that the wording of amendment 45 is self-explanatory. If we are extending the rights of access, any consequence of that should not be borne by the landowner. That is a simple explanation.
I move amendment 45.
Executive amendment 103 addresses the concerns that are expressed by amendment 45. Our amendment 103 has been lodged in response to representations from local authorities and landowners. It provides a power—
We have under 30 seconds.
It provides a power to local authorities to do anything that they consider appropriate for the purposes of maintaining a core path, keeping that path free from obstruction and providing the public with directions to, and indications of the extent of, a core path.
I call Mr Canavan to speak to amendment 189.
How long do I have?
You have 10 seconds.
Amendments 189 and 190 would oblige a local authority to take action against an obstructive landowner, instead of just allowing the local authority to do so. I therefore ask the Parliament to agree to the amendments.
I very much regret the tightness of the debate, but that is what the Parliament has decided.
The question is, that amendment 45 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 18, Against 89, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 45 disagreed to.
Amendment 95 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Amendment 96 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 96 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 79, Against 24, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 96 agreed to.
Section 14—Prohibition signs, obstructions, dangerous impediments etc
Amendment 189 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 189 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 24, Against 79, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 189 disagreed to.
In view of the time limitation, I will not move amendment 190.
Amendment 190 not moved.
Amendment 97 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 97 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Abstentions
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 87, Against 17, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 97 agreed to.
Amendment 191 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 191 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 24, Against 83, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 191 disagreed to.
Section 15—Measures for safety, protection, guidance and assistance
Amendments 98 and 171 were debated previously. For time reasons, I intend to put a single question on the amendments. Do members agree?
No.
In that case, the decisions on the amendments will have to be taken individually.
Amendment 98 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 98 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 89, Against 18, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 98 agreed to.
Amendment 171 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Section 16—Acquisition by local authority of land to enable or facilitate exercise of access rights
Amendment 172 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 172 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 80, Against 24, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 172 agreed to.
Amendment 173 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 173 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 83, Against 25, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 173 agreed to.
Section 17—Core paths plan
Amendment 99 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 99 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 90, Against 18, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 99 agreed to.
Amendment 100 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Group 14 is on core path plans. We are tight for time; the knife falls at 11.09. I ask the minister to keep his remarks tight.
In undertaking the challenge of producing provisions to create core paths, we took account of many of the comments that were made at stage 2. The amendments will provide a means to establish readily a core paths system that meets the aspirations of people who exercise access rights and respects landowners' rights.
Amendment 104, which will insert a new section after section 18, provides for local authorities to review core path plans that they have adopted under section 18 at times that they consider appropriate and when ministers require them to do so. The amendment is designed to address COSLA's concern about the lack of provision for the diversion of core paths. Following our amendments to section 17, it is envisaged that the core paths system will comprise routes, some of which will follow the lines of physical paths or tracks on the ground. Where there is a requirement to divert a route, possibly away from the line of an existing path, I accept that there should be no requirement to consult again on the plan. Subsection (2) of the new section that is proposed by amendment 104 provides for that.
In our view, a proposal by the local authority to extend its system of core paths is a completely different situation. In those circumstances, it is only right that there should be full consultation and that is what is required under subsection (7) of the proposed new section.
I hope, therefore, that it would not be appropriate for a local authority to consult on its core paths plan every time that it proposed to divert a core path. The local authority should note such diversions and the identification of alternative routes as amendments to the plan. However, proposed extensions to the system of core routes should trigger the full consultation process that is set out in section 18. Amendment 101 is consequential on amendment 104.
The changes that I have outlined meet the concerns that were expressed at stage 2 and have been welcomed by COSLA. I hope that Dennis Canavan will agree that our amendments 101 and 104 address the concerns that lie behind his amendments 193 and 194 and that he will not press his amendments. In view of the time that is available to me, I will close on that point.
I move amendment 101.
I call Dennis Canavan to speak—briefly please—to amendment 193.
My amendments 193 and 194 would require the implementation, and not simply the adoption, of the core paths plan. I will draw a comparison with the use of the words "implementation" and "adoption" in planning procedures. Adoption of a local plan means the approval of the words, maps and papers, whereas implementation of a local plan means the approval of the planning applications, funding and building of the roads, schools and so forth.
I ask the minister to consider positively my amendment 193, as it would seem to accord with the Executive's policies. What is the point of adopting a core paths network unless it is going to be implemented?
Members should remember that I have to get through five groups by 9 minutes past 11. I ask members to make very tight speeches, please.
I rise to support Mr Canavan, who has highlighted a weakness in the provisions of the bill and in the stage 3 amendments in this grouping. We know that the Executive's shelves are littered with action plans, but that does not mean that those plans will be implemented.
The minister said that the provisions of amendment 104 would not subject entire core paths plans to re-consultation if they are amended. I do not think that the wording of the bill, or of amendment 104, sets that out clearly. How frequently will the core paths plans be amended? Will the minister consider giving guidance to local authorities on how often they should review those plans?
Yesterday, I stated that the Conservatives see the core paths network as the main way forward in respect of access rights. On that basis, we find amendment 104 acceptable.
If the system is to work, however, it is imperative that we have the co-operation of local authorities. Dennis Canavan's amendments 193 and 194 would force councils to implement core paths plans and that would not achieve the degree of co-operation that is required. It is clear that his amendments would have significant revenue and capital costs, and local authorities are concerned about that.
I am uncertain about the wording of amendment 104. It would be helpful if the minister could give further amplification of the Executive's intentions in that respect. As it is presently constituted, amendment 104 would detract from the powers of councils rather than leave those powers as was intended in the bill.
Will the minister give me an assurance that, when a local authority draws up a core paths plan, it will be required to take regard of the needs of people with disabilities?
I will be brief. In response to the point that was made by Rhona Brankin, the answer is yes. The issue of implementation was discussed extensively at stage 2. I hear clearly what Dennis Canavan suggests, but we have to remember that the simple way in which Mr Canavan has provided for implementation in amendments 193 and 194 does not take account of the fact that much of the land in question is not in the ownership of the local authority. That is the fundamental problem in respect of his proposal. The other points that were raised have been answered.
The question is, that amendment 101 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Abstentions
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 88, Against 15, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 101 agreed to.
Section 18—Core paths plan: further procedure
Amendment 193 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 193 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 30, Against 77, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 193 disagreed to.
Amendment 194 not moved.
Amendment 102 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
After section 18
Amendments 103 and 104 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 19—Application of sections 13 to 15 in respect of certain core paths
Amendment 105 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 20—Delineation by agreement of paths in land in respect of which access rights exercisable
Amendment 106 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 21—Compulsory powers to delineate paths in land in respect of which access rights exercisable
Amendment 107 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 22—Ploughing of paths
Amendment 108 is grouped with amendments 109 to 118 inclusive and amendment 163.
The amendments in this group provide for the widening and reinstating of paths. Although ploughing is the land-management activity that is most likely to disturb a core path, there are other such activities. Our amendments widen the provision in the bill to make it apply to any disturbance of a core path.
There is no reason why reinstatement should not take place relatively quickly, so we propose to reduce the relevant period from eight weeks to 14 days. As that could result in different requirements, our amendments seek to apply section 22 to all rights of way. We propose to repeal the existing provision in the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967. Amendment 163 seeks to achieve that.
I move amendment 108.
We welcome amendments 112 and 113, which are very sensible. The period of eight weeks would have been onerous and could have removed many paths in Scotland for a large part of the summer season.
The removal of the necessity to give notice under those circumstances is a reasonable move, which would reduce bureaucracy. There is not much point in giving notice of something seven days after it has been done, when it is to be undone another seven days later.
We have no difficulty with the bulk of the amendments in this group. Amendment 113 is the only one that concerns us. The period that is stipulated is not nearly sufficient to resolve the difficulty in question.
On the basis of what I have intimated, Presiding Officer, you may wish to take the amendments in this group, excluding amendment 113, en bloc.
That is helpful.
As I can imagine no circumstances in which good husbandry could justify the ploughing up of a core footpath, I am worried about the implications of the measure that is contained in section 22. Therefore, I urge the Executive to keep a close eye on whether some farmers or landowners try to take advantage of it.
The time is sufficient and there is time for reinstatement.
Amendment 108 agreed to.
Amendments 109 to 112 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Amendment 113 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 113 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 93, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 113 agreed to.
Does any member object to amendments 114 to 119 being moved en bloc?
Presiding Officer, I have possibly misled you. Will you ask the minister instead to move amendments 114 to 118 en bloc? That would be agreeable.
Amendments 114 to 118 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
After section 24
Amendment 119 moved—[Allan Wilson].
The question is, that amendment 119 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 89, Against 17, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 119 agreed to.
Section 24A—Guidance
Amendment 120 is in a group on its own.
I move amendment 120, which is a technical amendment.
Amendment 120 agreed to.
Section 25—Judicial determination of existence and extent of access rights
Amendment 121 is grouped with amendments 122 to 125.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. We have no comments to make on this group of amendments. Perhaps the minister will bear that in mind in making his remarks.
Thank you. You are in a helpful mood this morning, Mr Aitken.
We accept that there is a case for trying to make more straightforward the legal process of establishing rights of way. Amendments 121 to 125 will extend section 25 so that the same procedures will apply to the determination of rights of way. They also address complaints that the current legal processes in relation to the vindication of a right of way can be cumbersome and expensive.
Amendment 124 seeks to widen the scope of the rules of court applying to applications under this section to ensure that they can address all aspects of the procedure.
I move amendment 121.
Amendment 121 agreed to.
Amendments 122 to 125 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Section 28—Application of section 15 to rights of way
Amendments 126 and 127 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Section 29—Interpretation of Part 1
Amendments 128 and 129 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Amendment 195 is grouped with amendments 130 to 132. I ask Stewart Stevenson to move amendment 195.
Can I speak? [Members: "No."] I was not seeking an opinion from the chamber.
Amendment 195 simply and clearly reflects the practical difficulties that there can be in Scotland when landowners are resident abroad. The amendment would include the land manager as the person to whom section 9 can refer, in addition to the owner. We will support the other amendments in the group.
I move amendment 195.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. In the interests of expedition, we have no objections to raise to any of the amendments in the group, despite Mr Stevenson's advocacy.
We have made up some time. The knife falls on this group at 11.09, so I will take brief contributions if members wish.
Amendments 130, 131 and 132 are technical changes to definitions as a consequence of previous amendments and other regulatory changes. They seek to transfer powers to Scottish Water. Amendment 131 expands the definition of a statutory undertaker. I hope that the amendments are not controversial.
Amendment 195 seeks to amend the definition of "owner of land" to include, where the owner is resident abroad
"a person appointed by the owner to act as manager of the land."
I accept the general thrust of the amendment. As Mr Stevenson said, the amendment is fairly simple and, with all due respect, I think that that is where the difficulty lies. The wording would create difficulties. The definition already provides that where the owner is not in actual occupation, the person entitled to occupy the land shall be regarded as the owner. That might include a tenant or a land manager. I consider that to be adequate provision for the purposes of the bill.
Moreover, it is not clear exactly what is meant by "resident abroad". The concept of residency is complex and difficult, as those who are familiar with taxation law will know. I take it that "abroad" means outwith the UK. More important, the amendment could give rise to an ambiguity where the owner is abroad and another person is entitled to natural possession. In view of that, I invite Stewart Stevenson to withdraw amendment 195.
Amendment 195, by agreement, withdrawn.
Amendments 130 to 132 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 30—Registrable land
I call Roseanna Cunningham to speak to and move amendment 196.
Amendment 196 would remove the word "Ministers" from line 23, page 18, and insert
"the local authority in whose area the land lies".
The amendment would pass to the local authority the power to define rural land, and so to define land that is registrable. That is a substantial power, because it means, in effect, deciding which land is registrable. The decision about which land is registrable is analogous to a planning decision. Local authorities handle planning issues, and are likely to know their local areas rather better than Scottish ministers and their civil servants are. If land reform is about anything, it should be about empowering local communities. Therefore, it seems more appropriate to give the power to define which land is registrable to local authorities, which are directly answerable to local communities.
As far as I am aware, ministers have not produced plans showing which land is rural and which is urban, or defined the factors that they will use, other than population, to define which is which. I ask the chamber to agree to the amendment to allow local authorities to make such decisions. Amendments 197 and 198 are consequential on amendment 196.
I move amendment 196.
The knife on this grouping falls at 11.39, so we have some time in hand.
I confess that we are attracted to the ideas advanced by Roseanna Cunningham. She may find an uncharacteristic degree of consensus on the bill in general.
Roseanna Cunningham's comments make infinite common sense. If devolution is to work, we must believe in true devolution by passing particular powers to local authorities. Local people know their local conditions, and they know what is right for their area. Amendment 196 and the two consequential amendments make reasonable sense. I would have thought that the deputy minister in particular—bearing in mind his background—would have considerable sympathy with the amendments, and I am sure that they will be agreed to.
I support the amendment.
I should like to reflect on comments made by Andy Kerr, the Minister for Finance and Public Services, about the fact that empowering local authorities is part of the Local Government in Scotland Bill. The provisions in that bill on community planning and passing powers of general competence to local authorities strengthen the role of local authorities; amendment 196 would be a natural extension of that.
We are talking about finding the appropriate level at which decisions should be made. If we want to carry through subsidiarity properly, here is a fine place in which to apply the principle. The issue is also about trust, empowerment and getting closer to communities. If we can achieve those aims through the bill, it would be a job well done, and I commend amendment 196 to the chamber.
As Bill Aitken pointed out, there are arguments on both sides of the issue. The principal argument against is that the provision in amendment 196 would remove consistency and clarity in determining what constitutes "excluded land". The bill's current provisions give ministers that responsibility.
As a result of the consultation that was carried out, the population threshold to which Roseanna Cunningham referred was left at 3,000 people. I wholly accept that the definition might not be as properly defined or as final as we would wish, but the proposal in amendment 196 would not assist matters, in that factors in connection with population and rurality are at least applied consistently at the moment. I believe that giving each local authority in Scotland the possibility to apply its own criteria for excluded land would introduce inconsistency, lack of clarity and possible inequality into the equation.
The other principal argument against amendment 196 is that the provision in section 30(2) requires an affirmative order. As a result, we will have to consult on the draft order before it comes before Parliament, which means that everyone—including local authorities—will have an opportunity to comment on its content. Allowing local authorities to decide what constitutes "excluded land" would not involve any parliamentary scrutiny, whereas I am giving Parliament the opportunity to come back to us on definitions and to take a further part in the consultation to ensure that consistent measures apply throughout Scotland. Amendment 196 does not have that merit and would lead to a lack of clarity and uniformity.
That still does not answer the point about local knowledge. Ministers will not be in the same position as local authorities are to make reasonable decisions about what can and cannot be defined as rural and urban in a specific area. I have listened to the minister's comments and there is some merit in what he says, but local authorities know far better than anybody else what the situation is in their area.
It is interesting that the minister raises the issue of consistency, because the result of some of the debates that we have had about handing local authorities powers is to introduce some of the inconsistencies that he now thinks are not appropriate. In a sense, everybody, including the minister, is trying to have it every which way. I press amendment 196.
The question is, that amendment 196 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 196 disagreed to.
Amendments 197 and 198 not moved.
Section 31—Community bodies
Amendment 133 is grouped with amendments 199, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 201, 154, 155, 156, 157 and 158.
The main thrust of the Executive amendments in the group is, with one or two additions, to ensure that the bill will no longer preclude a community body from achieving charitable status. The matter was, properly, rehearsed at stage 2 and we agreed to introduce amendments.
Amendments 133, 134 and 136, for part 2, and amendments 154, 155 and 157, for part 3, modify the definition of a community body to provide that it will be such a body only if ministers have confirmed that its main purpose is consistent with
"furthering the achievement of sustainable development."
That is the same form of words as was introduced at stage 2. It emphasises the fact that the community body should focus its activities on the long-term benefits that acquiring the land will bring.
Executive amendments 134 and 155 respectively remove the current requirement in the bill and will permit the memorandum and articles of association to specify purposes that are consistent with the current definitions used by the Inland Revenue charities division, which determines whether a community body can become a charity.
Executive amendments 135 and 136, together with amendments 138 and 158, will ensure that any surplus assets following the winding-up of a community body or crofting community body with charitable status will pass to a charity, if no similar community body or crofting community body with charitable status is available. That will allow the community body's company memorandum and articles of association to be compatible with the requirements of the Inland Revenue charities division.
Amendment 137 will remove from section 31(4A) the reference to the Registrar General for Scotland as the sole determining body for postcode units. That will provide more flexibility should the responsibility be transferred from the General Register Office for Scotland in the future. That flexibility is entirely consistent with that provided for the keeper of the register of community interests in land in section 33(9).
I turn to Roseanna Cunningham's amendments 199 and 201. When the matter was discussed in the Justice 2 Committee at stage 2, there was some support for an alternative means of setting up community bodies and an amendment to that effect was lodged. The issue was discussed at some length, but the amendment was not moved.
Amendments 199 and 201 would restrict that alternative to community councils, which already exist and are democratically accountable. However, there are still good reasons why it is better to set up community bodies as companies limited by guarantee, as section 31 sets out. The memorandum and articles of association of the company must comply with the requirements of section 31, which include having a minimum number of members and a main purpose that is compatible with sustainable development. Those requirements would be lost if community councils were able to act as community bodies.
Furthermore, under amendment 201, there would be no requirement for community bodies to demonstrate that a significant number of their members have a substantial connection with the land, that the land is sufficiently near to land with which the members have a connection, or that the land's acquisition is compatible with furthering sustainable development. All those safeguards would be removed. I ask members to resist amendments 199 and 201.
I move amendment 133.
I call Roseanna Cunningham to speak to amendments 199 and 201.
Stewart Stevenson will speak to the amendments.
We welcome the Executive amendments in group 20. When the Justice 2 Committee visited Stornoway and Lewis, it emerged that the Gigha buyout was greatly facilitated financially because the buyout company had charitable status. That status immediately saved the company many hundreds of thousands of pounds in taxation at the point of purchase. Given that the purpose of the companies that will be created under the bill is to support sustainable development in their communities, the advantage of having charitable status is immediately obvious. It is welcome that the minister and the Executive listened to the discussions in the committee on the issue.
I turn to amendments 199 and 201. The minister will no doubt recall that the Justice 2 Committee had a number of discussions about the nature of community bodies. A number of fairly onerous conditions are placed on limited companies and it seemed to many committee members that the condition that the body must be a limited company during the period of registration of an interest, prior to the acquisition of land, is particularly onerous. At that stage in the buyout process, there is little liability against which the members of the community body require to be protected through its being a limited company.
Amendments 199 and 201 would provide an alternative, in that community councils could be community bodies. The reason why community councils would be a good alternative at that stage in the process is that they already operate within the legislative framework and so exist in law—we would not have to define something new. Furthermore, community councils are supervised—the membership is known and the numbers that are required and the areas from which the members are drawn are established. We lodged amendments 199 and 201 to provide greater flexibility, particularly during the period of registration. Given the restrictive nature of land owning in Scotland, registration will often not lead to a purchase, but the amendments would make the process much easier for communities.
We are attracted by the Executive's amendments and we see the sense in them. The requirements of charitable status will ensure that the appropriate checks and balances are in force and that the appropriate audit requirements are in place, as would be required by the charities division. It is also true, as Stewart Stevenson said, that charitable status is a tax-efficient way for a community body to deal with matters.
We are not convinced by amendments 199 and 201. We feel that what they propose would not be a suitable way in which to operate. Amendment 213 also strikes us as interfering unnecessarily in the right of an individual, and we will oppose that amendment.
I support the Executive's amendments and speak against Roseanna Cunningham's amendment 199. I disagree with her view that community councils should be allowed to register. I have experience of the Gigha buyout, and it is clear to me that taking on and owning land is not something that any community body will do lightly. It is a huge responsibility, and it requires those who wish to do so to demonstrate that they are clearly focused on the objective of buying the property. It requires them to be properly representative of the community and to demonstrate that they are willing to take on that responsibility. In view of all those objectives, community councils would not fit the bill. I therefore encourage the minister to resist amendments 199 and 201.
Amendment 133 agreed to.
Amendment 199 moved—[Roseanna Cunningham].
The question is, that amendment 199 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 41, Against 65, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 199 disagreed to.
Amendments 134 to 138 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 33—Register of Community
Interests in Land
Amendment 139 is grouped with amendments 148, 149 and 161.
These are technical amendments that seek to clarify the text. I move amendment 139.
Amendment 139 agreed to.
Section 34—Registration of interest in land
Amendment 200 is grouped with amendments 174, 143, 150 and 175.
Amendment 200 is intended to allow the registration of a single interest in several land holdings—for example, when a parcel of land is owned by different people. Why would we want to do that? Well, it is also the intent of amendment 200 to ensure that we reduce burdensome administrative hurdles. We want to ensure that such burdens are reduced for those who are entirely within the voluntary field.
At present, the bill states that a community interest must be registered in each different parcel of land that is owned by each different owner. That means that a community body must go through the rigmarole of registering its interest, showing the support of 10 per cent of the community, providing a description of the boundaries of the land, assuring ministers of the community's connection with the land, advertising for absentee landowners and so on, for each separate land holding. That will make registering a community interest in land that is held by several owners administratively tiresome, expensive and burdensome. It would be far better if a community had to describe one set of boundaries and the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland, who is the expert in such matters, were left to work out the land holdings that are affected.
I suggest that the bill as constructed is a potential invitation to landowners to subvert the purpose and spirit of the bill. For example, if a landowner was concerned that a community buyout might be on the horizon, they could sell off a small parcel of land in the middle of an estate to a relative. Landowners could subvert the bill's intention and we need to close that loophole for potential mischief.
I move amendment 200.
I will deal first with amendment 200 and Bruce Crawford's arguments. I share his intention, but I do not agree with amendment 200. It is important to ensure that interest is registered in the correct piece of land and in single parcels of land, because once registration is made in respect of land, in effect an inhibition is put on the ability of the owner of the land to dispose of it, because the title will indicate that an inhibition exists. Therefore, it is important to ensure that registration is dealt with on an individual basis.
I agree that that might seem more cumbersome, but I disagree that the effect of a single registration would be better. If one thinks it through, what amendment 200 proposes could be seriously disadvantageous to the ability of anyone to sell land without having such registration noted. To pass the responsibility on to the keeper of the register of community interests in land, which has been set up to be compatible with the system of land registration that now operates in most of Scotland, would give them a power that they should not have. The register's purpose is to register interests that are noted to it. Also, if there are multiple owners, we get into difficulties in ensuring effective registration. With respect to Bruce Crawford, I believe that amendment 200 could defeat the genuine purpose that it sets out to achieve.
Executive amendments 174, 143, 150 and 175 are corrective amendments that seek to remove references to section 34(7)(c), which was removed by Executive amendment 335 at stage 2.
I intend to press amendment 200, because I do not accept the minister's argument. Nothing that he said would prevent the amendment from being successful. I am concerned that a landowner could choose to sell off small chunks of land all over the place in an effort to obfuscate and delay the process. The intent of the bill is to allow communities to gain ownership. I would suggest that we want to move in that direction across as much of Scotland as we can achieve. Amendment 200 seeks to deal with a particular area that opens up the potential for burdensome hurdles and which creates areas for mischief by landowners.
The question is, that amendment 200 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 27, Against 80, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 200 disagreed to.
Section 35—Criteria for registration
Amendment 201 not moved.
Section 37—Effect of registration
Amendment 213 is grouped with amendments 140 and 141.
Amendment 213 would prevent a transfer of shares in a company that owns the land unless the land is offered to a community body that has registered an interest in the land.
The triggers for the right to buy, as the bill is currently drafted, are limited, given the exceptions in section 37(4), the fact that a third of Scottish land is now owned by trusts and the fact that inheritance does not trigger the right to buy. A right to buy will arise for a community only if the land in which the interest is registered comes on the market. In addition, much land in Scotland is owned by companies, the sole purpose of many of which is to own the land concerned, such as the South Uist Estates Ltd. Where a community body has registered an interest in such a piece of land, the right to buy is not triggered if, as is commonly the case, the company is sold rather than the land. The purpose of parts 2 and 3 should be to end the situation in which land ownership is concentrated in so few hands in Scotland. The amendment is aimed at making the transfer of ownership much easier.
At stage 2, in response to a similar amendment, the minister said that such a change would involve the Executive
"in the reserved area of company law, which is outwith the competence of the legislation."—[Official Report, Justice 2 Committee, 30 October 2002; c 2006.].
If the right to buy cannot be triggered by the transfer of shares in landowning companies because that would involve the Scottish Parliament in legislating in a reserved area, there is an obvious solution—one that the Executive has not been shy of applying in other areas. If the Scottish Executive were to request that Westminster pass legislation with regard to this matter by means of a Sewel motion, then—who knows?—perhaps even the SNP would be tempted to support it.
I move amendment 213.
I might even be tempted by Alasdair Morgan's suggestion.
Nobody is more interested than I am in extending the range of triggers. Ways of doing so were discussed at length at stage 2. We extended the range of triggers to include transfers for value between family members, but the committee—including Stewart Stevenson, I think—generally agreed, after explanation, that the area on which we are now treading was too complex to proceed with.
The complexities include additional difficulties relating to company share transfers. It is too simplistic to assume that control is determined by simple majority share ownership. There are obvious difficulties arising from the fact that a lot of the land to which Alasdair Morgan refers is usually held by subsidiaries of larger groups. It is not true to say that there are no circumstances in which transfers of shares would entail the application of the trigger—if evidence were provided to us that land owned by a company was being transferred outwith that group by means of a conventional land transfer, the legislation would apply.
Monitoring trading in the market second by second, given that the information is not held centrally by Companies House, would be particularly difficult where individual or small numbers of shares were transferred over a number of years to various individuals or companies, which shareholders can do independently. There are no proposals and certainly no resources to track or investigate such share transfers. We are talking about a community body tracking the market second by second to determine movements in share capital between and across companies and within groups. Neither the community body nor the Executive would be able to police changes to ascertain when or whether the right to buy had been triggered.
My main point is that amendment 213 is simply unenforceable. That is not to say that there is no longer-term merit in examining with colleagues how to proceed to close whatever loophole Alasdair Morgan argues exists.
Does the minister accept that, as a matter of law, the register of limited companies is available for public inspection?
It is always out of date.
Yes, of course I accept what Stewart Stevenson says. However, as I explained, second-by-second monitoring of share transfers on the market is not within the Scottish Executive's resources, still less those of the average community body, even if the will to do that existed.
On Executive amendments 140 and 141, the bill could cause hardship following the breakdown of a marriage if a wife wished to remain in the family home with her children and therefore wanted to sell land to buy out her husband, or vice versa. Such a transfer could in some circumstances trigger the right to buy.
Section 37(4) refers to transfers in pursuance of an order of court, which would cover the situation in which a property settlement was incorporated in a divorce decree. However, we also wish to create an exemption for property transfers that arise from a minute of agreement or separation agreement where a marriage has broken up. Amendment 140 allows for a transfer of property to be excluded from triggering the right to buy under part 2 of the bill where a separation agreement exists between spouses.
Amendment 141 clarifies that the community body's registered interest continues in place when the land is transferred to a new owner under an exemption in section 37(4). The community would not need to reregister its interest and the new owner would be bound by the same prohibitions as the previous owner was. That is another important provision.
Amendment 213 takes a rather cynical view of land managers, but the basic point is that it is utterly unworkable. We could not have a situation in which share movements are tracked to find out whether someone's land was likely to be up for grabs. That would simply not work. Mr Morgan must appreciate that.
Executive amendment 140 is common sense. The matter was raised at stage 2 and not agreeing to the amendment could cause real hardship in certain instances.
The Conservatives are not attracted by Executive amendment 141. The community body must demonstrate that it is committed to the purchase and what would inevitably follow it. It is not too much to ask that the appropriate registration be done timeously and efficiently, thus demonstrating that commitment. We shall not support that amendment for those reasons.
Like many members, I believe in wider land ownership in Scotland. At stage 2, the Justice 2 Committee was very particular to press ministers on various ways in which land could become available for purchase. That can happen in a limited number of ways only, such as land coming on the market, land being held in trust, land being passed on by succession or between families and, of course, through the method with which amendment 213 is concerned, which is ownership changing through share transfer.
I am sympathetic to the aims of amendment 213 and have been since the beginning of the debate on the bill. At stage 2, the Justice 2 Committee asked ministers to draw up an amendment to incorporate the intentions behind amendment 213. Reluctantly, I had to accept that, for the reasons that Allan Wilson outlined, the method of tracking the transfer of shares is complex and that we do not have the full powers to take responsibility for that. I feel sad that we cannot do so and I would have supported such a measure if I felt that it offered a practical way of bringing more land on to the market.
I hope that, in a future session, Parliament will review the success of the provisions on the community right to buy. The Executive's position is that we should bring around 3 per cent of land on to the market, which is not an insignificant amount. There should be a review in the future to ascertain whether that has occurred. Sadly, I cannot support amendment 213, although I support the intentions behind it.
Mr Aitken and Mr Fitzpatrick—the latter from a sedentary position—suggested that the problem lay in the vast number of transfers of shares and in the fact that the share register is never up to date. It does not matter whether the share register is up to date; all that matters is whether the transfer of one share has taken place that would trigger the mechanism that amendment 213 would introduce. I do not think, therefore, that Mr Aitken's argument is a valid objection to the amendment.
I accept that the proposal might be difficult, but the minister went out of his way to make it sound even more so. He must remember that most of the companies concerned are single-purpose, private companies, which have been set up simply to own the pieces of land. As Pauline McNeill said, we should consider the matter more seriously in future or, if it is a reserved matter, ask Westminster to consider it more seriously. I am sure that some of the Scottish MPs down there will have plenty of time to investigate the matter.
The current situation is unsatisfactory. Indeed, owners will now be busy investigating how they can set up private companies in order to get round the objectives of the bill before it comes into force. However, as things stand, I seek the Parliament's agreement to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 213, by agreement, withdrawn.
Amendment 140 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Amendment 174 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 41—Duration and renewal of registration
Amendment 203 is in a group on its own.
At present, registration of an interest in land has effect for five years and thereafter lapses if the community does not reapply to register its interests by the same procedure as obtained for the original application. Amendment 203 would simplify the procedure by which reregistration may be made.
Where a community body has registered an interest in land, that interest must be renewed every five years. Given that much land in rural Scotland rarely comes up for sale, it will frequently be necessary for a community body to reregister a number of times.
It is in the nature of rural communities that community bodies will be fragile entities that are dependent on the hard work of perhaps one or two individuals for their continuing operation. If just one or two people die, take on other commitments, move on or lose enthusiasm, that could cause the community body to cease effective operation. If that happens, the community interest could be allowed to lapse after five years. The reregistration process should therefore be made as simple as possible in order to relieve the burden of administration on volunteers.
In the bill as it stands now, a community body will have to complete and submit a full application form every five years, including a full specification of the land on which it is registering an interest. It will also have to advertise in local newspapers if the landowner cannot be found, respond to comments made to it and carry out a further test of community opinion. That is very onerous for a community body and could deter the necessary renewal of the registration from taking place.
A stage 2 amendment sought to simplify registration procedure by requiring reregistration by ministers if they received notification that circumstances had not materially changed. The amendment was rejected on the ground that the community body must show serious intent in seeking to purchase the land.
Amendment 203 seeks at least to lighten the load, in the following ways. First, the community body would not be required to specify the land to which its interest related when that had already been specified in a previous application for registration of an interest. Secondly, the community would not be required to advertise for an owner who could not be found the first time the community interest had been registered, unless ministers had received a representation that the owner could be found.
Thirdly, if ministers were satisfied at the first application that members of the community had sufficient connection with the land, they would not need to have that confirmed every five years, unless they had received an indication that members of the community did not have sufficient connection with the land. Finally, if ministers were satisfied at the first application that there was sufficient support in the community for registration of an interest, they would not need to have that confirmed every five years, unless they had received an indication that there was not sufficient support for registration of an interest.
The amendment seeks to reduce the continual and cyclical burden that the bill would place on community bodies, which will consist almost entirely of volunteers. It seeks to simplify the procedure for reregistration, to make things easier and, in the longer term, perhaps, to ensure that the land-ownership pattern that we are trying to shift through the bill is in fact shifted.
I move amendment 203.
We are not attracted by amendment 203, but at the same time we do not wish to do anything that would add to the administrative burden on volunteers who are active in their community.
There is a great inconsistency in the argument that Roseanna Cunningham set out. She defined some community bodies as fragile entities and correctly noted that there are frequent changes in the personnel, attitudes and enthusiasm of such bodies. If, as Roseanna Cunningham wishes—and as we wish—many of the organisations are successful, enthusiasm and commitment must be present. I made the same point in respect of a previous SNP amendment.
Bearing in mind the frequent changes that may arise in bodies, as Roseanna Cunningham described, we do not think that it is unreasonable that the reregistration process should be amended—
I do not know whether Mr Aitken intends to say that he supports the amendment, but I urge him to recollect that the Conservative party is allegedly opposed to bureaucracy and red tape. Surely amendment 203 is seeking to reduce that.
I prefaced my remarks by stating clearly that we do not want to add to the administrative burden on voluntary organisations. However, we cannot support the amendment—for the reasons that Roseanna Cunningham articulated. Inevitably, the nature of community bodies changes frequently. There is a turnover of personnel in such organisations and some of the new personnel will have different views from those of the people who supported the project originally.
The requirement that there should be support for registration of an interest is not intended to add to bureaucracy. I was taken by George Lyon's remarks about the serious need for people to indicate the nature of their interest. He provided a practical example of the importance of doing so—that of Gigha.
Roseanna Cunningham alluded to the fact that various people may have moved on in various ways. If a community buyout is to be successful, it is important that a deep level of interest in that option should be demonstrable at the point when it becomes available. The danger of amendment 203 is that its supporters assume that they are removing a burden but fail to take cognisance of the fact that, in such an important process, it is proper every five years to ensure that there is absolute support for a buyout from the community that has registered an interest. I invite members to reject the amendment.
I have listened with interest to members' comments. We do not object to reregistration, which is essential for the reasons that we have outlined. However, are we saying that every five years community bodies must reinvent the wheel? That will be costly and time consuming. The process will act as a disincentive to reregistration. Instead, we should try to ensure that, once the original, detailed, costly work has been done, the work involved in reregistration is minimised. We are not saying that reregistration is unnecessary.
The question is, that amendment 203 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 27, Against 78, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 203 disagreed to.
Amendment 141 moved—[Ross Finnie].
The question is, that amendment 141 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 89, Against 15, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 141 agreed to.
Section 45—Procedure following receipt of notice under section 44
Amendment 142 is grouped with amendment 204.
We have considered further the effects of the assignation provision included in the stage 2 amendment 214, which should have been accompanied by amendment 215, providing a workable mechanism for assignation to take place. However, the Justice 2 Committee voted against amendment 215, which is almost identical to Roseanna Cunningham's amendment 204, and that made amendment 214 ineffective. Executive amendment 142 is therefore provided to resolve the anomaly by removing the assignation provision. However, that is not the only reason for our lodging it.
At stage 2, Stewart Stevenson used as a reason for lodging amendments 214 and 215 the example that the amendments would allow a process by which two bodies in adjacent areas with a common interest could merge and assign to a successor body the right to buy. He also confirmed that assignation under amendment 214 would require the body to which the land was being assigned to be a community body—the body would be required to be a community body as defined in part 2 of the bill.
In the first case, the two bodies could simply merge and act as one body without requiring assignation. In the second case, the community body would need to have gone through the necessary preceding steps, such as setting up a limited company and registration. The same effect can be achieved by the new body's registering an interest before the existing body revokes its registration. For assignation to take place in that way, we have the scenario of there being two bodies at the right-to-buy stage, a situation that is already accommodated in section 51.
In simple terms, amendment 204 provides the supporting mechanisms for assignation to work. Given that we believe that assignation is unnecessary, it follows that we believe that amendment 204 is unnecessary.
I move amendment 142.
On the contrary, assignation ought to be permissible. Amendment 204 would allow the assignation of the right to buy land by one community body to another community body at the time when the right to buy was triggered. The amendment envisages a situation where a community body registers an interest in a larger area of land and, when the right to buy is triggered, assigns its right to a community body dealing with a smaller area of land. I point out that Highland Council supports amendment 204.
The process of setting up a community body and registering an interest in land is cumbersome. The community body has to reregister its interest in each landholding by the same cumbersome procedure every five years, as we have just confirmed. Changes in land ownership in rural Scotland, in particular in the Highlands, are often piggybacked on an existing body, which is often a statutory body. For example, a local authority or a community council might wish to establish and oversee a community body for its entire area or a large part of it. When the right to buy is triggered, it may not be appropriate for a community body that covers a large area to pursue the purchase—the body may wish to assign the right to a more specific community body that covers a smaller, more defined area.
Amendment 204 complements previous amendments to allow community councils to act as community bodies. We are trying to widen the scope, not narrow it. Those previous amendments were not agreed to, but amendment 204 is still important.
At stage 2, Allan Wilson said, with regard to assignation, that he could not
"think of circumstances in which two community bodies would be close enough to each other to have a registered interest in the same piece of land."—[Official Report, Justice 2 Committee, 30 October 2002; c 2016.]
However, two community groups were involved in a bid to purchase Glencoe—Ballachulish and Glencoe community council and Friends of Glencoe. The Strathcona Glencoe estate was finally bought by a third party, which has established another community body—the Glencoe Heritage Trust Ltd. Assignation of any registered interest from one community body to another might conceivably have been useful in that situation. That is a concrete example of the kind of thing that can happen.
At stage 2, the Justice 2 Committee passed one of the necessary amendments on assignation of the right to buy, but did not pass the other. The minister is now seeking, through amendment 142, to remove the amendment that was passed. As a result, we will oppose amendment 142 and press amendment 204.
It occurs to me that there is a strange juxtaposition on this issue, as far as the SNP is concerned. The SNP has scathing views on landowners, as evidenced by amendment 213, and is cautious about the transfer of shares, yet with amendment 204 it has no hesitation in advancing the view that communities that are seeking to purchase land should be able to assign that right. The argument is inconsistent.
Does the member recall that Roman jurist of 2,000 years ago, Cicero, who said that the greatest power of the law is power to the people?
Mr Stevenson should not bandy Latin statements with me. The fact is that there is no justification for any assignation rights. For once, the minister has got that right with amendment 142, which we shall support.
I always knew that my Latin O-level would come in useful at some point in my life—quod erat demonstrandum.
Roseanna Cunningham's amendment 204 would have some merit if we had passed the provisions relating to community councils but, as she admitted, we did not. In the Glencoe example to which she referred, the two bodies could simply have merged and acted as one body without requiring assignation. In that instance, the same effect could have been achieved by the merged body registering its interest in the land prior to the revocation by the initial body of its interest. There is no requirement for assignation. I ask members to support amendment 142 and to reject amendment 204.
The question is, that amendment 142 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 76, Against 29, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 142 agreed to.
Amendment 204 not moved.
Section 46—Power to activate right to buy land where breach of this Part
Amendment 143 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 144 is grouped with amendments 145 and 207.
Amendment 144 is a response to the concern of the Law Society of Scotland and the Scottish Landowners Federation that the bill might, in some circumstances, jeopardise a future proprietor's title. For example, if an owner entered into negotiations with a third party, that fact could make a subsequent owner's title vulnerable to a future challenge by a community body under section 46, even if those negotiations did not proceed to a sale and the land was subsequently offered to and rejected by a community body. There is no express curing of the original breach of section 37 and its effect could be felt up to the end of the 10-year limitation period that is stipulated in section 46(2)(a). To deal with those concerns, we must disapply the provisions of section 46 to the situation that has been described, which would wipe the slate clean.
Amendment 145 simply clarifies the meaning of section 46(3)(a)(i).
Amendment 207 would widen significantly a community body's right to apply to the Lands Tribunal for Scotland when it thinks that a landowner might have breached the prohibition on his taking steps to market or sell land in which that body has registered an interest. The amendment would extend that right to any community body, even if it had no direct interest in the land and therefore no locus to intervene.
That would not improve the bill. Nothing stops any person from informing a community body that a breach might have occurred. It would then be for the community body involved, which would have a locus, to take the appropriate action. I therefore suggest that amendment 144 should be resisted.
I am grateful to the minister for saying that he will resist amendment 144. I suspect that he meant to say something different.
I am sorry. I move amendment 144.
We will be happy to support the minister's amendments 144 and 145.
Amendment 207, which is in my name, is important. The date in my amendment—31 January 2001—is the operative date. The bill already uses that date for some provisions, such as section 6(1)(g)(i), which relates to whether charges have been made for entry to land. The date was chosen because it was the date from which some landowners started the avoidance manoeuvres that might inhibit communities' ability not to register, but to buy land, because those communities will have no opportunity through sale to do so.
The minister raises a red herring when he talks about the anti-avoidance procedures that are contained in the bill in so far as they relate to land in which communities have registered an interest. That is the very point of amendment 207, which aims to address the situation in which avoidance procedures have taken place in advance of the registration. We know that land across Scotland is being transferred from individual to company or trust ownership. That is being done in the knowledge that the bill will become law and its purpose is to inhibit the ability of communities to buy land.
Members might have heard a sedentary intervention from the Tory benches when I made a reference to transfers to companies and trusts. I heard some of them say the word "good". I lodged amendment 207, however, precisely because of the risk that the amount of land that will genuinely come up for sale will be severely restricted by the avoidance measures that are being taken.
I cannot urge members too strongly to try to prevent such avoidance measures. There is a long history of landlords seeking to thwart the interests of communities across Scotland. We should not let this loophole, which I seek to close, be yet another instance in which landlords win against the public interest.
Executive amendments 144 and 145 seek to deal with another matter that was raised at stage 2. There can be no doubt that, for the bill to be a success, significant transfers of land will be made and that, as a result, titles will require to be changed from time to time. The problem is that the bill as it is drafted would result in the possibility of titles being jeopardised in future. Amendments 144 and 145 are commonsense amendments.
It will come as no surprise to Stewart Stevenson that the Conservatives do not think that amendment 207 is particularly constructive. Like so many of his colleagues, Stewart Stevenson takes a cynical view of landowners that defies description. Most people are simply seeking to protect their interests from the predatory activities of Stewart Stevenson and his colleagues. Amendment 207 is totally unacceptable and unworkable. It is draconian in concept and authoritarian in manner—a democratic chamber should have no part in it.
I find myself sustaining my own position. However, reference was made earlier to Dennis Canavan's aggressive advocacy. At the time, I thought the comment was a little unkind, but I am bound to say at this point that, although my argument is very sound, the support the Conservatives have given, albeit for very different reasons, is rightly—
Embarrassing?
Yes. However, let us stick to the essential point on which the Executive is resisting amendment 207. Our point is that, if we are to create a legal right, it is necessary to have a locus on which to prosecute it. That is not what is suggested by amendment 207 and I continue to resist that amendment.
Amendment 144 agreed to.
Amendment 145 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 47—Exercise of right to buy: approval of community and consent of Ministers
Amendment 146 is grouped with amendment 147.
I am pleased that Bill Aitken's amendment 50 has not been agreed to, as it would have removed confidentiality altogether from section 47. As I indicated at stage 2, that would have gone too far.
Funding for the purchase of land may come from a number of sources, including the Scottish land fund. At the right-to-buy stage, community bodies that want to purchase land are very unlikely to have received confirmation that they will receive funding. It is also possible that their negotiations with other funding bodies could be jeopardised by having to make public those negotiations.
I offered to lodge an Executive amendment at stage 3. Amendments 146 and 147 relate to the removal of the confidentiality provision on information on land use at the right-to-buy stage, when it is particularly important that as much information as possible is publicly available before the ballot. The amendments will remove the confidentiality provision in relation to land use, but will retain it for the funding arrangements. That proposal, which will encourage openness and transparency, sits well with the bill's principles and will be consistent with the confidentiality provision for registration that is contained in section 33(4), which we agreed to amend at stage 2.
The purpose of amendment 147 is simply to reinstate the only reference to land in section 47(5), which amendment 146 will remove.
I move amendment 146.
In general, we support amendments 146 and 147. However, I invite the minister to provide clarification on amendment 146. Although it certainly seems appropriate that, as part of the application process, the use to which land is to be put should be public knowledge, it is possible that the community will have a business plan that requires confidentiality. It should be clarified whether ministers may still withhold information on the use to which land is to be put that is contained in a business plan that requires confidentiality, on the ground of commercial confidentiality. Is that possibility being ruled out altogether?
All that I can say to provide clarity is that although ministers will not treat as confidential information relating to the use to which land is to be put at the right-to-buy stage, confidentiality will be retained in relation to arrangements for funding to buy the land that are contained within a community's business plan.
It is my recollection that the Executive's selective attitude to transparency and confidentiality was articulated when the bill was introduced. We are discussing purchases in relation to which there is likely to be a substantial input of public funding—the purchases in question will be funded out of lottery funding or direct taxation. As such, it is incumbent on the Executive to ensure that full, frank and free information is provided. Therefore, we cannot support amendments 146 and 147.
Amendments 146 and 147 will remove the community body's right to require ministers to treat as confidential information relating to the use to which land is to be put. Confidentiality will be retained in relation to arrangements for funding to buy the land for the reasons that I have outlined. To do otherwise might jeopardise the community's ability to raise the funding to purchase the land.
The question is, that amendment 146 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 91, Against 17, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 146 agreed to.
Amendment 147 moved—[Ross Finnie].
The question is, that amendment 147 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 88, Against 17, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 147 agreed to.
Section 50—Declinature or extinction of right to buy
Amendments 148 and 149 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
After section 56
Amendment 214 is grouped with amendment 206.
Amendment 214 is a substantial amendment. In fairness to members who are operating with the papers they had previously, amendment 214 was substituted for amendment 205 and there are some fundamental differences between it and the amendment that appears in the first marshalled list for stage 3. A new marshalled list that was distributed this morning takes account of that.
The effect of amendment 214 is to introduce a compulsory purchase power to the bill. If community bodies have an interest in land registered for at least five years and the right to buy has not arisen, they might hold a referendum under the terms of the bill and if successful, they might apply to the local authority to purchase the land in which they have registered an interest compulsorily on their behalf. That is what we want to happen.
The local authority has discretion in deciding whether the compulsory purchase is appropriate. The conditions that apply are that there must be no prospect of the land coming up for sale in the next 10 years. The compulsory purchase may not be against the public interest and the community body—prior to the compulsory purchase—must show that it is able to pay for the land and the transaction costs.
The basic scheme is that, where a community body has registered an interest in land, the right to buy has not been triggered for five years and there is no prospect of the right to buy being triggered in the next 10 years, the community body may hold a ballot under the terms of the bill. If the people of the community vote in favour of purchasing the land, the community body may apply to the council for a compulsory purchase. For that to happen, the council must consider that it is appropriate to carry out the compulsory purchase, that the purchase is not against the public interest, that the community body is able to pay for the land and the transaction expenses and that it will use the land in a way that is compatible with sustainable development. Finally, amendment 206 provides for an appeal process for landowners, community bodies and members of the community.
Amendment 214 is supported by Highland Council and a similar amendment was lodged by Alasdair Morrison at stage 2. However, there are some differences between amendment 214 and Alasdair Morrison's stage 2 amendment. There is no reference to the non-existent Local Government in Scotland Act 2002. Community bodies must wait five years before seeking a compulsory purchase from a local authority. A new public interest test will be introduced to allow the purchase to go ahead and communities will be required to pay for the land—it would not be transferred free of charge by the local authority.
The Land Reform (Scotland) Bill is certainly a step in the right direction, but it is still rather timid. In Scotland, a quarter of the land is owned by 66 landowners, a third by 120 owners, half by 343 owners and two thirds by only 1,252 owners. There are local land monopolies that can strangle the development of communities for decades and that has been seen in Eigg, Mar Lodge, Assynt and elsewhere. The bill provides that it is only if the community has continually indicated its willingness to buy, set up a company, registered its interest and re-registered every five years, that it may, at such time that the owner becomes willing to sell, purchase the land at the market value.
Amendment 214 reverses the timidity of the bill. It gives community bodies leverage on owners who hoard land. It cuts through the difficulty that a landowner might wish to hold on to land simply for the capital receipt, but not wish to invest in the land or the community. It cuts out all the technicalities relating to transfer of land by transfer of shares in a landowning company—which we have discussed—and avoidance by transfer to trust or transfer of pro indiviso shares. Its principle is simple and it fits in with the principle of redistributing land and redressing the balance of power in the countryside to the people who live there. That was the point of the bill in the first place.
Amendment 214 is considerably more moderate than the crofting community right-to-buy amendments that we will vote on later. Alasdair Morrison lodged a similar amendment at stage 2 that sought to provide the local authority with compulsory purchase powers to buy land for the well-being of the community and pass it to a community body free of charge. At stage 2, he stated:
"The Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997 gives local authorities powers to acquire compulsorily any land in their area that is suitable for, or required to secure, development or improvement, or required for the purposes of the proper planning of the area. However, those powers relate to the planning function of the local authority."—[Official Report, Justice 2 Committee, 5 November 2002; c 2053.]
Alasdair Morrison's amendment was criticised on a number of grounds. Allan Wilson pointed out some technical flaws, including a reference to an act that does not exist, and he questioned the use of public money by local authorities.
Stewart Stevenson supported that amendment but pointed out that there was a lack of clarity over whether the community body to which the land was to be transferred was the same as the community body that made the application for a compulsory purchase. Duncan Hamilton said that he believed that the amendment would shift the balance of rights unfairly in favour of the community body and against the landowner.
Amendment 214 seeks to deal with those criticisms. The technical flaws that were pointed out by Allan Wilson and Stewart Stevenson have been removed. The lack of balance has been addressed by requiring the community body to have its interest in the land registered for five years before it can ballot the community on purchase of the land.
Under the amendment, the local authority, which has been elected to represent a wider area than the community body, will have discretion as to whether to go ahead with any compulsory purchase. It would not be able to act against the public interest or act if there was a prospect of the land coming up for sale. That addresses the issue of balancing the rights of the community and the landowner. The issue of the use of public funds has been addressed by requiring the community to pay for the purchase and any transaction costs.
The deputy minister gave a commitment to examine the principle of compulsory purchase to release land for rural communities. In a letter that he wrote to the Justice 2 Committee on 14 January he stated:
"The Executive have maintained a clear policy line that the community right to buy in Part 2 of the Bill depends on there being a willing seller. This has remained consistent since the publication of the White Paper … I believe therefore that there is no basis for any divergence from this towards a specific compulsory purchase power. Also, the purpose of the community right to buy is to provide opportunities for communities to buy land when it comes to be sold, and not to enable other bodies to compulsorily purchase land and pass it on to the community body if they so wish."
He also stated that he saw no reason to change what was already in the bill.
I am disappointed, because I suspect that that is what the minister will say again today. That suggests that, although we are passing a land reform bill, we are not doing so with any great ambition. When the Scottish Parliament set out to work on land reform, I had hoped that our ambition to change fundamentally the pattern of land ownership in Scotland would be realised.
I do not believe that the bill will realise that fundamental change. It might make a start, which is why we are supporting it. Opening up local authorities' compulsory purchase powers would take another step on from the start made by the bill.
Amendment 206, also in my name, is consequential to amendment 214. It provides for an appeals process to allow the landowner, a member of the community or the community body to appeal to the sheriff against a decision by the local authority to carry out a compulsory purchase. I do not need to speak any further on that.
I move amendment 214.
As Roseanna Cunningham said, amendment 214 is a far-reaching amendment. The fundamental differences to which she referred at the beginning of her speech make the amendment no more acceptable to us.
It is important to underline the fact that our principal objection to part 2 of the bill is not to the transfer of land ownership—far from it. We fully agree that it would, in many respects, be advantageous for land ownership to be transferred. However, we have no truck with compulsory purchase arrangements that attempt to interfere artificially with the market price of land. In essence, Roseanna Cunningham is attempting to apply the provisions under part 3 to the whole of Scotland—I accept that more hoops would have to be jumped through to achieve that. I see that Mr Stevenson looks characteristically uncomfortable.
Compulsory purchase may have a role from time to time. Many of us who have served on local authorities have been involved in compulsory purchases in the past. However, where it is necessary, compulsory purchase should be entirely in the wider and greater public interest. I find it surprising that someone with the left-leaning credentials of the SNP should advance a proposition whereby compulsory purchases could take place in the interest of making money for a restricted number of people. We should not enter into compulsory purchase arrangements to benefit the profit of individuals or groups of individuals.
Can Bill Aitken remind us whether it is the case that, when the Tories were last in power in Westminster, compulsory purchase was used to buy some of the land at Greenwich on which the Millennium Dome was subsequently built? If so, was that a prudent use of public funds?
Of course, Mr Ewing is factually correct. At that stage, the compulsory purchase of that land was a prudent use of public funds and in the wider public interest. What happened thereafter was a matter for Mr Blair and his new Labour acolytes whose running of the Millennium Dome turned the whole project into such an unprofitable fiasco that it brought that particular compulsory purchase into disrepute.
Amendment 214 is yet again a sign of the intemperate collectivism that seems to prevail in SNP thinking. Its effects would be fairly dramatic and would have devastating consequences for rural Scotland's economy. Indeed, when we come to debate the amendments in group 30, I shall outline the potential damage that part 3 of the bill could cause. Amendment 214 would simply extend the area of damage. I wonder whether the SNP really wants to extend the Highland clearances to the rest of rural Scotland, because that appears to be its aim.
Compulsory purchase has traditionally been defined as being in the public interest. I agree with Bill Aitken that amendment 214 would have a detrimental effect on rural Scotland's economy.
The bill contains many different tests in relation to the purchase of land, one of which is that the right to buy may be exercised if it is "in the public interest" to do so. Amendment 214 turns that provision in the opposite direction. It says:
"The authority may grant an application under subsection (1) above only if it considers that … it is appropriate, and not contrary to the public interest, to do so".
I formally submit that such a provision would be a disaster for the economy of rural Scotland.
As Roseanna Cunningham has pointed out, I undertook at stage 2 to consider whether the additional powers outlined in amendment 214 were suitable for inclusion in the bill and other proposed legislation. I did so and in my letter of 14 January to the convener of the Justice 2 Committee, Pauline McNeill, I confirmed that there was no basis for divergence from requiring a willing seller towards including a specific compulsory purchase power in the bill. Moreover, I did not believe that there was a need for any such additional powers in legislation.
As a result, I remain of the view that amendments 214 and 206 are unnecessary and fundamentally flawed, particularly amendment 214.
In developing the legislation, we have retained a clear policy line on the general approach to the community right-to-buy process in part 2 of the bill: if a transaction is akin to a sale it should be covered by the legislation. However, that requires a willing seller, which there clearly is not in this case.
Amendment 214 is unnecessary because, in some of the instances referred to in the amendment, compulsory purchase powers are available to local authorities. The examples that are provided have been cited. The Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997 provides compulsory purchase powers to local authorities to acquire land for development, redevelopment or improvement. In addition—this is important—the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 provides local authorities with wide-ranging powers of compulsory acquisition. Those statutes are therefore the more appropriate places in which to consider compulsory purchase powers.
It is also important that those powers will be further strengthened by the Local Government in Scotland Bill. Peter Peacock's response to parliamentary question S1W-32710, on 6 January, indicated that the power to advance well-being, in section 21 of that bill, will be
"an important enabling tool for local authorities to do anything they consider is likely to promote or improve the well-being of their communities. A local authority may use the power to advance well-being in conjunction with section 71 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 as an additional means to consider compulsory purchase of land."—[Official Report, Written Answers, 6 January 2003; p 2672.]
In those circumstances, the Executive does not consider that any additional compulsory powers are necessary.
Amendment 214 remains flawed in a number of ways. First, subsection (1)(b) of the proposed new section requires that
"a ballot has been held under section 47".
However, if a ballot had taken place under section 47, the seller would already have intimated to ministers under section 44 that the land subject to the community body's registered interest was to be sold. In that case, there would be no need for the additional compulsory purchase power. Using the power could do no more than unnecessarily inflate the cost of the land, thereby increasing the financial burden on the community body.
In addition, compulsory purchase powers are normally used only when negotiation to buy land by agreement has failed and when the acquiring authority—in this case the local authority—can demonstrate that the public benefit that arises from the acquisition is greater than the loss to the individual who will be deprived of their property. Mike Rumbles made that point.
Secondly, subsection (2)(c) of the proposed section requires that
"there is no reasonable likelihood of the community body being able to exercise the right to buy under Part 2 of this Act within the next ten years".
That is contrary to subsection (1)(b), because the community right-to-buy process, as drafted, already provides that the ballot should follow intimation that the owner wishes to dispose of the registered land. There can therefore be no occasion under section 47 when a ballot has taken place and there is no reasonable likelihood of the community body being able to exercise its right to buy within the stipulated period.
Further, amendment 214 would completely change the main principle of part 2, which provides for a community body to buy land when it comes to be sold by a willing seller. That principle has already been agreed at stage 1 of the bill and to implement such a change would be outwith the main ethos of the community right to buy; it would extend far beyond the principles of part 2 as agreed at stage 1.
For those reasons, I believe that amendment 214 should be resisted. Amendment 206 is consequential to amendment 214 and is therefore unnecessary if amendment 214 fails.
Amendment 214 made the cut. That suggests to me that, notwithstanding the minister's final comments, it is in keeping with the general principles of the bill that the amendment be discussed and, I hope, voted into the bill.
I am hardly surprised by the Tory opposition to amendment 214. However, even for the Tories it is a little odd. There are 1,252 owners of two thirds of the land in Scotland; the current system is of benefit to very few people. What we are trying to do is to make the situation of benefit to a great many people. The bill does not go far enough in achieving that aim. All along, we have been consistent in supporting the bill as far as it goes, which is not very far.
I have worked in local government, not as a councillor, but as a legal officer in a legal and administrative department. I have progressed compulsory purchase orders, so I know that the system is complicated, time-consuming and easily got wrong. However much I might wish compulsory purchase—even in the terms of amendment 214—to become much more widely used in achieving the aim of changing land ownership patterns, it is highly unlikely that there will be constant, rolling compulsory purchase.
Despite the comments that have been made, I have talked about a public interest test. I make it clear that an interest would have to be registered for five years before the power was triggered. That would be followed by a ballot and a public interest test, plus confirmation of the ability to pay. There is also provision for an appeals procedure. That does not seem to me to be the kind of exaggerated system that members have described.
Roseanna Cunningham almost misleads members about my point, which was that compulsory purchase should be in the public interest whereas, under amendment 214, the purchase would simply have to be
"not contrary to the public interest",
which is different.
That is a semantic difference. If the argument is that amendment 214 would be an extension of compulsory purchase powers, what is the problem? To achieve the bill's aim, which is a change in the pattern of land ownership in Scotland, I am prepared to take a radical step and change the compulsory purchase power. The public interest test should be applied as is suggested in the amendment. If that is different from what is done at present with compulsory purchase, so be it. I would rather that we change the provisions of compulsory purchase to achieve the real ends of the bill than do what we may have done today and yesterday, which is spend a great deal of time, effort, energy and words to achieve not terribly much. I want a real change in the pattern of land ownership in Scotland and amendment 214 would help to achieve that.
The minister wants to intervene just as I am on my last word.
Many members share Roseanna Cunningham's desire for land ownership to be broadened and extended. However, does she not accept Ross Finnie's point that the power to advance well-being, which the Parliament recently approved in the Local Government in Scotland Bill, is the enabling tool that she seeks to allow local authorities to extend ownership in concert with local communities?
It is interesting that the minister seems to confirm that local authorities can already use the compulsory purchase power to achieve the bill's aim of effecting a change in the pattern of land ownership in Scotland. If that is the case, every local authority in Scotland should be challenged to achieve that end. Unfortunately, that has not happened and, as a result, we have the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill. If local authorities already have the power, why was the bill introduced in the first place?
We know that local authorities do not really have that power. The SNP wants them to have it because we want to effect a real change in the pattern of land ownership. However, at present, the bill will not achieve that. The SNP is committed to extending the powers in the bill and amendment 214 is an attempt to do that. We will return to the issue in Parliament again and again until we see a real change in land ownership in Scotland.
The question is, that amendment 214 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 31, Against 81, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 214 disagreed to.
After section 57
Amendment 206 not moved.
Section 59—Compensation
Amendment 150 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 151 is grouped with amendments 152, 153 and 160.
They are all technical amendments. I move amendment 151.
Amendment 151 agreed to.
Amendments 152 and 153 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
Before section 62
Amendment 207 moved—[Stewart Stevenson].
The question is, that amendment 207 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 28, Against 79, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 207 disagreed to.
Section 62—Effect of right to buy
on other rights
Amendment 55, in the name of Bill Aitken, is grouped with amendments 1 to 5,7,12,14 to 26,28 to 37,56 and 57.
It goes without saying that we are now reaching the nub of the argument on the bill. Members will have gathered that the intention behind the group 30 amendments is to remove part 3 of the bill. In technical terms, this may look somewhat complex, but it was the only way in which that could be done. I am not trying to be unmerciful to my colleagues, who have already had to hear a lot from me this morning: this was the only way in which that aim could be achieved.
As I have stated before, much of the bill is unnecessary, although one can perhaps sympathise with the general thinking behind part 1. However, the thinking behind part 3 is quite different and much less positive. Frankly, the proposals that are outlined in part 3 are class-driven and anachronistic. I suspect that they have been put forward in the interest of those who are fighting the battles of 200 years ago, who, in some perverse way, see the bill as a means of righting the very real wrongs that were inflicted at the time of the Highland clearances. The problem is that the bill could, in turn, bring about the very situation that the Executive and all of us seek to prevent—a 21st century Highland clearance.
I will put forward in simple terms what is happening. What the bill proposes is nothing short of the expropriation of property. Land is to be sold to those who apply to purchase it, not at market value, but at what inevitably would be an artificially deflated price. What will be the inevitable consequence of that? Those who own land will no longer invest in it. If landowners realise that their land can be taken away from them, they will most certainly not invest. There are, indeed, signs that that is happening.
I will put the matter in simple terms that even Labour members should be able to understand. Would any of them think of installing double glazing and central heating in their own homes if someone could come along and take away their property without paying the market price? The answer is, of course, that they would not. Why should a landowner be any different?
Is Mr Aitken suggesting that the bill does not provide for compensation for improvements?
What I am suggesting is that the bill does not provide the opportunity for someone who owns property to get the market price for that property. Stewart Stevenson is well aware that the district valuer will decide the basis of valuation. The figure that will be decided will not be the market value. Stewart Stevenson must know that the effect of that will be to depress land prices and reduce investment. Who will suffer in that instance?
Many of our rural communities, particularly in the crofting counties, have very fragile economies. When a landowner has work carried out, local tradesmen are employed: local builders, plumbers, electricians and the like. If the landowner does not invest, such work will not be carried out, the local communities will suffer and local jobs will be lost. Have the bill's proponents thought that through? The answer to that question must be overwhelmingly in the negative.
Section 66 is particularly invidious. My colleague Jamie McGrigor will deal with section 66 later, but it enables a crofting community body to purchase salmon fishings, with only the most tenuous of connections. Again, the effects of that are already being felt. I spoke to some of those who were demonstrating outside the chamber yesterday. One told me of a specific instance in which investment had already been cut. Those men were understandably anxious and extremely concerned about their jobs, and their and their families' way of life.
Who is rubbing their hands at the fact that when investment reduces, Scotland's rural communities will be prejudiced?
Given the campaign against—
I have a problem hearing Mr Adam.
We have sound now.
Given the campaign that was run against the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002, and the claims of the prophets of doom and gloom about the numbers of jobs that would be lost and the fact that there is no evidence of any of those jobs being lost, what confidence can we have that jobs will be lost as a consequence of the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill?
Will Mr Adam deny that jobs have been lost because of the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002? The fact is that jobs have been lost, and once the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill's measures work their way through, other jobs will be lost. I would have thought that someone such as the late Duncan McNeil—[Laughter.]—with his strong trade union interests, would have been concerned about the rights of workers and the retention of employment. However, it seems once again that he has a selective attitude to these situations.
To return to the point that I was making before Mr Adam's welcome intervention, the fact is that the people who will benefit as a result of this misguided bill are the Russians, Scandinavians and Icelanders, who are prepared to allow investment in fishing tourism. Fishing tourism attracts a minimum of £30 million of investment to Scotland. That investment will disappear and jobs will be lost.
The debate and the bill have nothing to do with creating a more positive and contemporary Scotland—it is all about the wrongs and injustices of the past. As I said previously, the bill is by any other name expropriation of property. Again, as has been said, the bill is a land-grab of which Robert Mugabe would have been proud. Mugabe in a tartan outfit—Ross Finnie—is exactly what we are up against.
I move amendment 55.
It is clear from section 85(4) that, contrary to what Mr Aitken said a moment ago,
"The value to be assessed is the market value of the land".
Given that that is enshrined in the bill and is accompanied by an appeals procedure, will he withdraw his incorrect comments?
My comments were not incorrect. The market value will be determined on the value that is placed on that particular property and the fact is that this legislation will depress the market value and the market value that will be obtained will be an artificially low one. That is as plain as the nose on one's face. I would have thought that Mr Wilson, with his undoubted ability in economics, would have recognised that fundamental point.
Mr Aitken is arguing that the creation of this right will devalue the land. The crofters' right to buy has been in place since 1974. Is there any evidence that that has had a detrimental effect on land values? I point out that that right to buy does not carry with it the safeguards of this piece of legislation, such as the right to full and proper compensation and the need to take account of any peculiar interest when the land is valued. This legislation contains a double safeguard to ensure that those who currently own the land will be fully compensated.
Could you make that the last intervention that you take, Mr Aitken? Perhaps I should also ask Mr Lyon to clarify whether he still has a speech to make after that intervention.
I would have thought that Mr Lyon would have been shy about raising the point that he did, but I shall pursue that no further. It cannot be disputed that there will be a reduction in the value of land because of the downward pressure of uncertainty. This type of legislation has no place in modern Scotland.
I advise members who have drifted off during this debate because of the technicalities and the complexity of the bill to tune back in at this point because we are coming to the heart of the matter.
The amendments in this group amount to no more than a series of wrecking amendments designed by Mr Aitken to remove a third of the bill.
That is right.
We now have confirmation that they are wrecking amendments. The only thing that we can praise Mr Aitken for is his consistency, as he has tried to thwart this part of the bill from stage 1 and he is trying to do so all the way to the bitter end.
However, some of his comments have been ridiculous. The idea that this legislation is being driven by a class agenda is idiotic. That is not the case. It is being driven by those of us who think that it is time to re-energise rural communities and to give crofters the right to buy their land. Given that Mr Aitken knows full well that there is no prospect of success for him in this debate, we must assume that the amendments constitute political posturing that is designed to position his party on the side of one sectional interest. That does him no good.
It is worth saying that, perhaps, crofting deserves a bill of its own. It is a vital part of rural life. It might be that we would want to return to that, but we have before us an opportunity to stand up for those communities. We should take that opportunity.
The nub of the debate is why the aspect that we are discussing should be compulsory. In its contribution to the Justice 2 Committee's stage 1 report, the Rural Development Committee said:
"the fragile nature of crofting communities (already recognised by the current individual right to buy crofting tenancies at 15 times the annual rent), together with the benefits to the social economy of self-determination, justify the special nature of the crofting community right to buy."
That just about says it all. We are talking about fragile communities that are already suffering from the depopulation that Mr Aitken describes. To argue that the legislation will lead to depopulation when it is the current system that is failing those communities strikes me as somewhat ironic.
The same is true for Bill Aitken's arguments about valuation. Those arguments were tested throughout the committee stage and were found to be bogus. As Andrew Wilson has already pointed out, section 85(4) already contains a clear definition of market value.
Does Duncan Hamilton agree that, when the matter was discussed at the Justice 2 Committee, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors gave evidence to the effect that valuations and prices would fall and the market would be depressed?
Conflicting evidence was certainly given, but the RICS witnesses were also unable to tell the committee why Bill Aitken's example of double glazing could not be factored into market value. The committee heard no convincing evidence that improvements on land would be stunted as a result of part 3. Bill Aitken's evidence on the matter is sketchy at best.
The bill mentions market value, a proper evaluation and an appeals procedure. I noted with great interest that Bill Aitken gave no answer to the point that George Lyon made a few moments ago. We can say with a degree of certainty that, if any measure were going to impact on the value of land, George Lyon would not support it. The fact that he is comfortable with part 3 is perhaps the ringing endorsement of the bill that we have been looking for.
We have been through extensive consultation on the subject, and robust committee scrutiny. Mr Aitken has made his argument. We heard it and dismissed it. He has lost the argument. It is time to recognise that crofting communities need an opportunity to thrive in the coming centuries. The bill is the best way for the Parliament to kick-start the process.
I will be brief, as I have already contributed to the debate.
Bill Aitken has been consistent, if nothing else. Since day one of the debate, he has argued with some passion against the provisions in the bill. The simple proposition that divides most of the Parliament from the Tories is clear. It is that, in the narrow, concentrated and often absentee pattern of land ownership, many of Scotland's rural communities face a major barrier to the creation of jobs, opportunity and prosperity.
That is the proposition that we in the Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition believe. Wider ownership of land is a good thing. It will be a major spur to rural development and ensuring that jobs, prosperity and opportunity are created throughout rural Scotland.
What does Mr Lyon say to the river workers who came to the Parliament yesterday, who are concerned about the loss of their jobs? Does he ignore their views, or does he share the view of Mr Rumbles that they are stupid and do not understand the bill?
As Murdo Fraser would know if he read the bill, any crofting community that takes on ownership of a river must demonstrate to the minister that that is a viable economic project and that it will sustain and enhance the community. That will mean that it will have to take on labour to manage the river. The river workers should be reassured that, if the bill's provisions are agreed to, employment will still be there.
The difference between the Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition's approach to the issue and the Tories' approach is clear. We seek to empower the many ordinary people who live and work in Scotland. The Tories, on the other hand, seek to protect the few. They support the many absentee landlords who view land as a tax shelter and an investment vehicle in Scotland.
It would be unfortunate if the reform in part 3 had the effect of interfering with the wild salmon angling industry, which brings many millions of pounds to areas that are lucky enough to have good salmon rivers.
In 1997, £70 million was spent on salmon fishing. For centuries the management of Scottish salmon rivers has been considered throughout the world to be excellent. That is because the management expertise exists and the necessary investment for improvement is available.
Part 3 is about compulsory purchase. Compulsory purchase should happen only in the public interest. That Scottish salmon fishing should suffer is blatantly not in the public interest. As a result, angling tourism will suffer and river workers will lose their jobs.
Will Jamie McGrigor give way?
Salmon fishing and angling tourism will suffer if part 3 is enacted.
Will Jamie McGrigor give way?
Who will pay for that damage?
Will Jamie McGrigor give way?
Members saw the Highland river workers making their dignified protest outside the Parliament yesterday. Why did those workers feel that it was necessary to travel hundreds of miles from areas such as Sutherland and Caithness? They felt it necessary simply because they realise that their jobs and livelihoods are under threat from part 3 and they do not feel that they were fairly treated by the Parliament in that they and the Highlands and Islands Rivers Association were refused the right to give oral evidence to the Justice 2 Committee.
Will the member acknowledge that the Rural Development Committee did receive oral evidence from the Crofting Counties Fishing Rights Group, and that there is a crossover in the membership of the Rural Development Committee and the Justice 2 Committee? Will he recognise that the Justice 2 Committee received written evidence from the group and that that committee went out of its way to visit a salmon fishery?
Just "a salmon fishery", I note. The witnesses representing the Crofting Counties Fishing Rights Group were indeed allowed to give evidence to the Rural Development Committee, but were treated with such hostility by certain MSPs that their evidence was swept aside in a torrent of prejudice that, frankly, made me feel ashamed to be a member of the Parliament, let alone of the Rural Development Committee. The Crofting Counties Fishing Rights Group represents some 600 river managers and workers, who are unhappy with part 3. The Highlands and Islands Rivers Association represents some 500 owners, who are also unhappy with part 3.
Will the member give way?
Collectively, those people represent the expertise that has made Scottish salmon rivers the envy of the world. Surely it is the job of MSPs to listen to the evidence of experts before they make up their minds, and not just to use committees as stages on which to display their personal prejudices?
Will the member take an intervention?
The proposed legislation under part 3 is objectionable because it introduces the compulsory purchase of permanent interests in which the applicant had no previous interest. It differs from part 2, which gives communities the first refusal on land that comes up for sale. The proposals on salmon fishings make the legislation discriminatory. The Executive has never explained why salmon fishings on neighbouring land have been included under the provisions. Why not include golf courses or hotels? Why just salmon fishings?
Will the member give way?
No, sorry. The policy memorandum states:
"The Bill will enable crofting community bodies … to buy all the land which the crofters use including … the salmon fishing exercisable from that land".
Will the member give way?
Yet there are no provisions—
Will the member give way?
No. There are no provisions to restrict compulsory purchase powers to salmon fishings that are actually used by the applicant.
In written answer S1W-30827, the Executive stated:
"The bill does not provide for the purchase of adjacent salmon fishings but only for the purchase of salmon fishings that are exercisable from and on croft land."—[Official Report, Written Answers, 14 November 2002; p 2244.]
Will the Scottish Executive please explain the difference between an adjacent salmon fishing and a fishing that is exercisable from croft land? We are confused.
Despite the promise that Rhona Brankin made of an in-depth analysis of the freshwater fisheries sector, no research has been carried out on the effect of part 3 on that sector. Because of the employment and investment concerned, surely such an analysis is vital.
One of the requirements of European Union law is that legislation is proportionate to the benefit that it is to provide. In this case, however, the question of any benefit to crofting communities is completely outweighed by the disastrous loss to the salmon fishery owner and to the fishery itself and by the number of redundant fishery employees. Unless the Scottish Executive intends to pay for existing and future fisheries projects, salmon fishing will suffer.
I object to the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill because it is extreme, unjustified, unchecked, unscrutinised, disproportionate and unresearched. Part 3 should be removed.
I will call Maureen Macmillan, although her name may have appeared on my screen because she was attempting to make an intervention.
I had not intended to make a speech at this point, but I tried—I think about six times—to intervene on Jamie McGrigor.
There are many rivers—like those to which Jamie McGrigor referred—where there are no crofts. There are rivers in Sutherland along which there are no crofts at all, yet the ghillies were down here protesting at the crofters' right to buy. I know some of the ghillies in Sutherland—I was taught how to cast by Donald Morrison from Achmore—and I am well aware of their concerns.
I am certainly not going to take an intervention from Jamie McGrigor.
I know the ghillies' concerns, and feel that they have been misinformed by some landowners and by the Tories. Their jobs will not be in danger, because the crofters are very unlikely to buy the rich salmon rivers in the east of Scotland. They are more likely to buy rivers with very little salmon, or salmon rivers that have not been developed, which they can buy at a knock-down price.
Will the member give way?
No.
If the crofters wish to develop such rivers, they will need to employ ghillies. Part 3 will create employment for river workers, rather than destroying it. The Conservative party has done no service to the people who work on rivers by making them feel that their jobs are threatened when that is patently not the case.
I oppose vociferously the amendments that Bill Aitken has lodged. Bill Aitken, Murdo Fraser, Jamie McGrigor and other Conservative members have consistently misrepresented the proposals in the bill. They have done so in the Parliament today and they have done so in the months since the bill was published.
I draw members' attention to the safeguards inherent in the bill as regards the purchase of properties. Section 71 deals with "Criteria for consent by Ministers". I want to focus on just two of those. The first is
"that the exercise by the crofting community body of the right to buy under this Part of this Act is compatible with furthering the achievement of sustainable development".
The bill is about putting money into properties, not taking it away. It is about providing people in rural Scotland with jobs; it is not about taking jobs away.
Will the member give way?
Sit down.
The second criterion for consent by ministers is
"that it is in the public interest that the right to buy be exercised."
We are talking about sustainable rural development and having a strong, effective rural economy.
The river workers to whom Bill Aitken and Jamie McGrigor referred gave evidence to the Rural Development Committee. They told the committee that their jobs were under threat. When members asked how they interpreted the provisions relating to sustainable development and investment, they were at a loss. They seemed to have been misled by certain parties. Murdo Fraser nodded his head at that point. The river workers have listened to Conservative members, who have misrepresented the bill.
I asked the river workers what there was to prevent the landowner who employs those workers from selling their property tonight, leaving the workers out of a job. The bill is about giving river workers security.
The crux of Mr Rumbles' argument is that the river workers do not understand the legislation. He is saying again that they are just stupid. That is a disgraceful comment for a parliamentarian to make.
Twice Murdo Fraser has accused me of saying that the river workers are stupid. Far be it from me to make such a suggestion. Murdo Fraser used the word "stupid". That is not language that I would use in the chamber—it is reprehensible. The river workers have been misled by Conservative members, who will have to take responsibility for that. I hope that the chickens come home to roost on 1 May.
It is outrageous and disgraceful for Bill Aitken to talk about a Mugabe-style land grab. However, that is typical of the Conservative attitude to the bill from day one.
How dare Jamie McGrigor accuse five committees of the Parliament of not scrutinising the bill? Five committees of the Parliament, including the Justice 2 Committee, reported to the Parliament on the bill. When the rural rebels bawled at members outside the chamber, I did not hear Mr McGrigor complain about the ill-treatment of members by people whom he represents.
Will the member take an intervention?
No. The member did not take my intervention, so I shall not take his.
We specifically asked Ross Finnie to justify why we should change the nature of property law in Scotland. We pressed him on that, because we recognise that departure. He is quite clear: it is about the sustainable development of rural communities. I therefore have to ask, what is the policy of the Tory party on the development of rural communities? I hope that people in those communities are listening to what the members on the Tory benches are saying.
Let us be clear about salmon fishings. I did not hear the Tory speakers mention the mineral rights that are in the same part of the bill—they do not seem too concerned about that. This part of the bill is about the viability of communities. The crofting communities have only a year in which to determine whether they wish to apply for salmon fishing rights. Let us get things in proportion: the communities have to demonstrate that they can make the investment and they have to demonstrate that there will be sustainable development. If they cannot demonstrate that to ministers such as Ross Finnie, they will not be able to acquire those rights.
The loss of jobs is serious. I take it seriously and I know that the members of the Justice 2 Committee, who have worked hard on the bill, listening to the 3,500 consultees who made representations to us, take it seriously. No one has the right to demand that they come before any committee. We must always reserve the right to determine who we think should come and speak to us, but we did not ignore the 3,500 representations that were made to us. We were quite clear that the ministers should justify why they particularly wanted to include the provisions on salmon fishings. There is a concern about loss of jobs, but my understanding is that the law will protect any worker where there is a change of ownership of management and I do not see that the situation for salmon-fishing rivers would be any different.
Members of the Conservative party have in the course of the last few minutes, and indeed in the course of their campaign, managed to display a quite appalling lack of understanding of how crofting communities in Scotland operate and of the special nature of their position in Scotland and in legislation. They have manage to display a total failure to understand, not just this year but in previous years, why, in order to protect those fragile communities, it has been vital to grant them powers of compulsory purchase.
It really is extraordinary that Conservative members should try to rewrite all that has gone previously in that regard. They indulge in a great deal of what is, frankly, cheap and they are the persons who are exhibiting great prejudice. There has been scaremongering that the bill does not provide a proper means of valuation. That is total scaremongering that is not substantiated by any reasonable reading of the bill.
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con) Will the minister take an intervention?
No, I think that the member's party stopped taking interventions quite a long while ago.
It is total scaremongering, because both the land involved and the fishing rights will be subject to the same valuation procedures. Given that crofting communities will have to demonstrate the serious matters of how they will take proper and responsible ownership of the land and the fishing interests, that the plan is properly thought out, that it is clearly and demonstrably in the interests of their fellow crofters and meets a wider public interest, it is pure prejudice to say that crofters are incapable of coming to that conclusion.
Ross Finnie used the word scaremongering. Does he remember that the most recent occasion on which the combined ranks of the Executive parties accused the Tories of scaremongering was when we said that the new Parliament building would cost more than £40 million?
That intervention fails to pass the relevance test. We should move on.
As Perry Mason once observed, "incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial".
Is £340 million immaterial?
Order, Mr Gallie.
Will the minister take an intervention?
No.
I do not think that Phil Gallie's outburst has added one iota to what has been a serious debate.
The issue, quite simply, is this: the principles of the bill, including part 3, were endorsed following the debate in this Parliament and following the publication of the committee's report, and not one single compelling argument has been put forward as to why we should change our attitude to part 3. Quite simply, part 3 is about empowering crofting communities, giving them the means to protect themselves if their future is threatened, and allowing them to acquire control over land and fishing interests where such control is needed to facilitate the development of the community in a sustainable fashion. The conditions set by the bill make it clear that this is not an easy option for every crofting community—it will be a difficult option—but to suggest that crofters are not capable of exercising that option responsibly is a foolish notion indeed. I invite the chamber to reject all the amendments.
I call Bill Aitken to respond, and to indicate whether he intends to press or withdraw.
The possibility of withdrawing is highly unlikely.
Ross Finnie stated that we do not understand the issue. The problem for the serried forces of darkness opposite is that we do understand the issues, and we understand them all too well. If they are not prepared to listen to us—as clearly they are not—they should listen to the people outside who know what they are talking about, for example the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, their political colleagues on Highland Council, and many other bodies, which will point out the dangers of the path down which the parties opposite are going.
Will the member give way?
No. On the basis that Mr Finnie seems to have taken the view that we should not take interventions, I will proceed for a few moments.
Anyone who has a semblance of common sense, anyone who is aware of the practicalities, anyone who is involved in financial services, and anyone who basically understands rural communities knows that this particular course of action is fraught with danger. I do not for one moment think that anyone in the opposing parties is ill motivated in that respect, but what they are seeking to do will not work. It is social engineering, and every time that has been tried, it has been a disastrous failure.
Some of the individual speeches were noteworthy. I presume that Pauline McNeill operates on the basis that a good rant before her lunch is highly therapeutic. She raised a number of issues, and she was right about one of them, which is that I will defend the Justice 2 Committee in that it certainly scrutinised the bill in considerable depth. Unfortunately, my colleagues on that committee—on this issue; they were not this way on other issues—failed to approach the problems with an open mind. That is the basis of what went wrong.
If the parties opposite are not prepared to listen to us, I appeal to them to listen to the river workers to whom we spoke outside the chamber yesterday, who told me, for example, that no publicly owned rivers in Scotland employ any ghillies. They expressed their fears for their rural communities. It may be that if members of the parties opposite advance a little bit further from the redoubt in which they have surrounded themselves, they will find that rural communities are highly sceptical and deeply concerned about the provisions in part 3.
I know that it is the 11th hour and the 59th minute and the 59th second, and I suspect that my eloquence is not likely to persuade members opposite who have such closed minds, but even at this late stage, they should think very seriously about what they intend to do. The fact of the matter is that the proposals would be a disaster for rural Scotland and for crofting communities in particular.
The question is, that amendment 55 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division. Although I think that everybody is here, this is strictly a one-minute division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Grn)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 16, Against 94, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 55 disagreed to.
I inform members of a mistake this morning. The vote on amendment 85A was inadvertently read out incorrectly. For the Official Report, I confirm that the result of the division was: For 42, Against 62, Abstentions 0. Apparently, the vote against was inadvertently stated as 60 instead of 62.
Section 63—Amendment of Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979
Amendment 175 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
After section 64
Amendment 208 is in a group on its own.
Amendment 208 is fairly simple and straightforward and its effect should be obvious to all members. It would require the Executive—whomever it might comprise—to produce a report every four years on the diversity of land ownership and what it is doing to address the concentration of land ownership. I have previously reminded the chamber of the current land ownership pattern in Scotland. The bill's title shows that the bill is intended to bring about change. A report once a parliamentary session is not too much to ask for our monitoring of the change that the bill will bring about.
If the rights that the bill confers do not bring about change in the balance of land ownership, the bill will have failed. Greater diversity of land ownership would mean more people living in the countryside. It would enable Scotland's poorer land to perform nearer to its production potential and would mean that Scotland's natural resources were distributed more equitably.
I think that we all agree that the current situation is unacceptable. Many benefits can be achieved if the bill's purposes are realised, but we must know that they are being realised. What the amendment asks for is neither unrealistic nor unacceptable. I respectfully ask the minister to accept amendment 208.
I move amendment 208.
We find the amendment unacceptable. It is unnecessarily bureaucratic and would involve unjustified expense.
I agree that regular reports about progress on land reform should go to the Parliament, and from the Parliament to the people of Scotland. The Executive has an excellent record on such reports. A statutory provision for a report once every four years would not improve on that.
The Executive reports to Parliament more regularly than once every four years. I expect that that will continue and that such reports will cover the diversity of land ownership, particularly in the context of the bill, which I expect to be passed later today. Such reports could cover not only community ownership and the extension of community ownership of land, but all the rights that part 2 extends.
Is the minister reassuring us that, in future, reports will be issued on changing patterns of land ownership in Scotland as a result of the bill? Will they be published openly so that we can all see them?
Yes. For clarity, I repeat that that is what I was saying.
Such reports should not be restricted to broadening the diversity of land ownership. We expect to report on progress with other land reform aspects, such as the abolition of feudal tenure, and agricultural holdings, more regularly than once every four years.
As members are aware, there are also many other mechanisms by which members can secure information, hold the Executive to account and progress matters. My principal point is that amendment 208 is unnecessary. I trust that the assurances that I have given that the Executive will report regularly obviate the necessity for Roseanna Cunningham to move the amendment.
Amendment 208, by agreement, withdrawn.
Section 65—Land which may be bought:
eligible croft land
Amendment 1 moved—[Bill Aitken].
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 16, Against, 89, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 1 disagreed to.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I intimate that, on the basis that there has been a reasonable kick of the ball in respect of my amendment 55, I would be quite relaxed about my remaining amendments in group 30 being taken en bloc.
He wants his lunch.
That point is material. At this stage, because we have taken one more grouping than was anticipated, we are ahead of schedule. As it is likely that the next grouping will take longer than the 12 minutes that remain for our consideration of the bill this morning, I propose to suspend the amendment stage at this point. Members should not, however, leave the chamber.