Plenary, 28 Sep 2000

Meeting date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

Official Report 660KB pdf

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Question Time

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SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

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Rail Transport

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will reconsider, in the light of the current fuel situation, the advice it gave to the shadow strategic rail authority about the franchise bids for the east coast main line between Edinburgh and Aberdeen. (S1O-2289)

We have no plans to do so.

I thank the minister for his most electrifying answer.

In response to my letter of 28 June, Sarah Boyack stated that diesel engine trains were a serious competitor with electric trains

"especially with regard to cost".

Bearing in mind that, even in the short time since my letter was written, the cost of a barrel of oil has increased by $1.21, will Mr Galbraith support the recommendation that electrification of the east coast main line between Edinburgh and Aberdeen is a necessity?

Sarah Boyack was correct when she said that diesel technology is now a serious competitor with electric trains.

We should not base judgments on short-term fluctuations in oil prices. We are looking at long-term commitments—franchises of between 15 and 20 years. I will conclude by saying that if members consider what is happening, they will see that the journey time between Edinburgh and Inverness has been cut by half an hour because of diesel technology. With improvements in tracks we will get similar results on the Aberdeen line. This is an old story from an old party.

Does the minister recognise that the best diesel or electric train in the world will not run any faster on a track that is as inadequate as sections of the east coast main line are? Will he advise the strategic rail authority to address the issue when considering the franchise bids? Will he ask Railtrack to assess the costs and benefits of double-tracking the section of single track on the line halfway between Aberdeen and Dundee?

Part of the advice that we gave on that matter to Railtrack was on the necessity for faster trains. The electrification issue then becomes redundant because of the development of diesel technology. [Members: "Rubbish."] That was a very sophisticated comment.

The issue is about matters such as the track; there are difficulties on the track to Aberdeen because of the number of bends and double bends. We have given Railtrack that advice. We look forward to Railtrack taking it and doing something about the problem.

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Skye Bridge

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has reviewed the effects of the discounted scheme for local users on the Skye bridge in accordance with the commitment to do so contained in the partnership agreement. (S1O-2311)

It is a special pleasure to hear Mike Rumbles endorsing both the principle and the practice of partnership. The answer to his question is yes. More than 80 per cent of commercial vehicles and 75 per cent of cars—outwith the tourist season—benefit from the higher discounts that were introduced in January 1998.

Thank you, but I am not sure whether the minister answered the question. I asked whether the Executive had reviewed the scheme. There is concern over the discounted scheme for local users. People welcome the fact that VAT will not be added to it. John Farquhar Munro has lodged a motion to address that issue. Will the minister consider bringing the matter forward for debate?

I am grateful to John Farquhar Munro for drawing my attention to the problem. He will know that the discounts—whereby frequent users in cars pay £1.34 instead of £5.70—are funded by a subsidy of £1.75 million from Sarah Boyack's department, which will be welcome to his constituents. Date-stamping of tickets that expire at the end of 12 months is controversial and difficult to understand. The matter is being raised with the Skye Bridge company by officials of Sarah Boyack's department. They will consider it presently and I hope that we will be able to make some progress.

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National Health Service

To ask the Scottish Executive what overspend there has been in each of Scotland's acute hospital trusts in the first four months of the current financial year. (S1O-2295)

As at 31 July 2000—[Applause.] What a disappointment—I thought that I was getting a spontaneous round of applause from the SNP—in fact it was for John Swinney entering the chamber.

As at 31 July, the acute NHS trusts together reported that they had spent £5.235 million more than their profiled budget. That figure does not include the recent additional allocations that have been made, but refers only to money that has been invested in the service. I will publish a table to be placed in the Scottish Parliament information centre setting out the details for individual trusts, and intend to do that in future on a quarterly basis.

I will assist the minister and the chamber. It appears that 13 out of the 14 acute trusts are already in deficit—Lothian University Hospitals NHS Trust by £4.8 million, Highland Acute Hospitals NHS Trust by more than £1 million and North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust by almost £1 million. The total deficit for the first four months of this financial year stands at £11 million. Given that, will the minister assure members that funding that is meant for patient care, including that which is to be redistributed under Arbuthnott, will not be used by the trusts to address their spiralling budget deficit?

I will miss these exchanges with Mrs Ullrich. I wish her well in her new post as chief whip—I only hope that her arithmetic in that job will be better than it has been during her time as health spokesperson, or there could be some interesting results of votes in the chamber.

I have a sense of déjà vu about this question, because last year I listened to Mrs Ullrich and her colleagues saying time and again how large the deficit was going to be in the NHS in Scotland. Figures of £50 million were quoted regularly. The real year-end deficit figure last year was some £20 million, which was accounted for by fewer than half the trusts in Scotland—in fact, half of the amount was accounted for by one trust. We are not even halfway through the financial year, but already bizarre predictions are being made about the figure at the end of the year.

Perhaps Mrs Ullrich would care to acknowledge the facts, which are that almost £500 million more is going into the health budget this year than did last year and—as Jack McConnell announced a couple of weeks ago—a further £400 million will go into the health budget next year. That is real investment for real patients, with real results based on real facts.

On another matter on which the minister failed to listen last year, is she aware that a number of health boards in Scotland are experiencing early winter pressures on their beds and would like to spend some of the new money that she allocated on relieving that pressure? As a result of that pressure, they will not have enough contingency money for any future winter crises.

I am struck by the appearance of the prophets of doom and gloom who predict crises before they happen and who are already talking about winter pressures although it is only September.

The additional resources that have been invested in the NHS have been targeted towards the areas of greatest need, including dealing with pressures that occur at different times of the year, but especially in winter. There has been not only additional investment, but additional preparation and planning. The NHS is a big and complex service, but it is rising to the challenge and we are fulfilling our commitment to provide real investment.

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Water Authorities

To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer by Sarah Boyack to question S1W-8819 on 25 August 2000, whether it intends to review the level of water authority chairmen's salary packages. (S1O-2306)

We have no plans to do so.

Is Mr McConnell aware that the salary of the boss of East of Scotland Water is £160,000? Does he believe that a quango boss is worth three times as much as a First Minister? Is he aware of section 116 of the Local Government etc (Scotland) Act 1994—what one might call the Galbraith section—which says that the Executive may give

"directions of a general or specific character"

and that

"it shall be the duty of the authority to comply with those directions"?

Will the minister use that power of direction to rein in the salaries of quango bosses? If not, is that because quango bosses get paid big bucks in exchange—

Order.

I would have been delighted to answer a supplementary question on the subject of the water authority chairmen's salary packages, which is what Mr Ewing thought he was asking about. However, he is referring to the chief executive rather than the chairman. He should get his facts right before he comes to the chamber.

How can the minister justify a salary of £27,000 for a part-time job? Is it significant that the two chairpersons who are members of the Labour party are paid £2,000 more than the one who is not?

I thank Dennis Canavan for asking a question on a topic that was on the agenda. When those people were appointed to those positions, Dennis Canavan was a Labour MP and I was not a Labour MSP, so perhaps he knows the answer to that question better than I do. He might even have voted for that salary package in the House of Commons.

During the term of this Labour Government, all those positions have had their salary packages reduced from the packages that were put together by the previous Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland, Mr Michael Forsyth, at the time of the institution of the new water authorities. That is right and proper. Compensation is also much more closely related to the duties for which those who hold the positions are responsible—that should be welcomed by all members. We must ensure that people do their jobs properly.

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Young Offenders

To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with reporters to children's panels with regard to the availability of secure places for young offenders. (S1O-2312)

Regular discussions take place with the Scottish Children's Reporter Administration on a variety of issues, including the availability of secure places.

I thank the Executive for its approach in seeking to develop community-based alternatives to secure residential placements for young offenders and I warmly welcome the £148,000 that has been allocated to Dundee City Council to develop such alternatives.

However, does the minister agree that the need remains for a certain number of secure residential places? If so, is he satisfied with the current number, given that children's panels regularly place secure orders on young offenders, only to find that there is no available secure place to send them to?

John McAllion has highlighted an important issue that concerns many of his constituents who are troubled by the consequences of the problem that he has described. There are 91 secure places in Scotland and work that has been carried out suggests that that number is appropriate. What are lacking are alternative, close-contact but non-secure placements for young offenders—places such as Freagarrach and Cue Ten.

However, there is scope to increase the number of secure places. Dundee City Council is close to having another four places and I hope that we can approve them fairly soon. Aberdeen City Council is considering six places, as is Kerlaw in Ayrshire, which is the responsibility of Glasgow City Council. Although the number of places is probably about right, there is scope to enhance provision. However, we should not assume that increasing the number of secure places is the solution. Too many people have been in secure places for too long or should not have been in such places at all. As a result, we must develop proper community placements that are tough options, so that offenders can confront their criminal activities. Such a dual package is the way forward.

Given that the children's panel in the Highlands currently refers young offenders who are in need of drugs rehabilitation treatment to Lincolnshire, will the minister also consider a care and rehabilitation package in Scotland for young offenders whose offences are associated with drugs?

There are many rehabilitation packages in Scotland and over the years we have increased funding significantly in that area. It is open to local authorities in Scotland to make their own choices; I am not here to determine them. We should always be careful about trying to second-guess or take powers away from local authorities.

That said, more can be done. I hope that there will be announcements in the near future about additional expenditure on the important area of drug abuse, not only on its prevention, but on rehabilitation of those who are unfortunate enough to become involved with drugs.

Does the minister agree that, when we review the number of secure places that are available for children's hearings, it is important to ensure that children are appropriately referred from such hearings and remain in secure places for as little time as possible? Furthermore, does the minister agree that children's hearings have often requested places for secure accommodation over many years and that those requests have always exceeded demand for such places?

The question of the number of places was reviewed several years ago by the secure accommodation advisory group, which is now re-examining the matter. That group highlighted the two issues that Mr Barrie has raised. Sometimes, people are inappropriately placed in secure accommodation or stay there too long, which blocks a place for someone who really needs it. However, the solution is not necessarily to provide more secure places, but to provide alternative placements such as Freagarrach and Cue Ten that make the offender confront what they have done wrong. I hope that we will be able to solve the problem with a package that includes some extra secure places.

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Rape Allegations

To ask the Scottish Executive what consideration it has given to the use of statement validity analysis in allegations of rape, as developed by Chris Few. (S1O-2310)

I assume that the question relates to research work that is being carried out independently by Mr Few. Mr Few has not submitted his research to the Scottish Executive, although I have read newspaper reports that he intends to do so. If and when he does that, we will obviously consider the matter.

Following the press reports on the issue and the very real concerns of women's organisations—most notably Rape Crisis, whose representatives are in the gallery today—will the minister assure the chamber that women's organisations, and particularly Rape Crisis, will be consulted at all stages if and when the work is developed?

I recognise the concerns that have been expressed, not least by Rape Crisis. As we would need to be reassured of the value of the research before considering any proposals, I can reassure Sylvia Jackson that we will consult those who work with the victims of rape. It is a matter of supreme importance that victims of rape feel that they can come forward with utmost confidence in the system.

I am disappointed by the minister's comments and seek some assurances from him. I am particularly concerned that rape has been singled out for such analysis. Does not that send a strong message out to women, who might complain that barriers are being put up? Furthermore, will psychiatrists or trained police officers carry out such work?

I am sorry that Mr Paterson is disappointed by my answer. The problem is that no research has yet been made available to the Scottish Executive so I cannot explain, on the basis of a newspaper report, why a person doing independent research is following the route that he follows.

I hope that what I will say will reassure Mr Paterson: I am determined that victims of rape should have complete confidence in the system and be treated with the proper sensitivity and tact when they report an incidence of rape. They deserve no less.

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Royal Burghs

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to restore the historic rights and titles of Scotland's royal burghs. (S1O-2319)

We have no plans to change the legal status of the royal burghs but we recognise the continued existence of the burgh charters, which provide much civic pride by facilitating the traditional and ceremonial roles that local communities can undertake.

I have always believed that Scotland's burghs and communities have tremendous untapped potential. Does the minister agree that it might be fruitful for the Scottish Executive to consider ways in which Scotland's communities could be encouraged and enabled to provide certain services and carry out local improvements themselves?

If Mr Stone would furnish us with some ideas in that regard, we will deal with them in due course.

We support the Association of Scottish Community Councils. In some parts of Scotland, community councils have been significant players in maintaining civil and local community distinctiveness. We want to recognise that with our continued support.

We need to include community councils in the wider agenda of modernisation of Scottish local government. However, not everything requires to be modern. If there are good ideas that incorporate inherited traditions in those communities, I welcome any such suggestions.

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Genetically Modified Organisms

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to bring forward legislation, or to make representations to Her Majesty's Government, to legislate for mandatory consultation with local communities and other interested parties prior to consideration of applications for GM crop trials. (S1O-2292)

We have no plans to bring forward legislation until the current revision of the governing European directive on deliberate release of genetically modified organisms into the environment is complete.

I have expressed my concern that neither the directive nor the UK legislation contains provision for mandatory public consultation. I am therefore pleased to say that, within the revision discussions, the Scottish Executive, in tandem with the UK Government, supports moves to ensure that the revised standard will include a requirement for mandatory public consultation.

I am sure that the directive will require primary legislation to come into force.

I am sure that the minister is aware of two draft bills on the matter that are before the Parliament. Given what he has just said, will he support Winnie Ewing and John Munro in ensuring that their bills make progress?

My undertaking is to pursue actively the implementation of the directive. As Mr Adam will be aware, section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998 requires us to comply with EU legislation.

My difficulty with those bills is that they would both amend the planning legislation. Lawyers and experts will have to consider whether that is the appropriate method, or whether we require either to pass another piece of Scottish legislation or amend part IV of the Environment Protection Act 1990, which currently implements the requirements of EU directive 90/220.

Further to that and to the minister's admission to me in June 2000 that a rogue harvest of GM contaminants that was gathered in 1999 is now in the human and animal food chain—I had practically to get that admission out of him using forceps—can the minister give me an update on what steps have been taken to trace those harvest fields?

That is not in order. The question is about mandatory consultation.

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Further and Higher Education

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to ensure that every student in further and higher education develops appropriate information technology skills. (S1O-2314)

The Executive announced that the funding that is allocated to the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council will increase by £88 million over the next three years to a record £697 million. The Scottish Further Education Funding Council's budget will rise from £358 million to £436 million over the same period. Those are significant real-terms increases.

Both councils will be asked to earmark some of that additional funding for further development of information and communication technology. For this year, the funding councils have allocated some £22 million to support information and communication technology initiatives.

Extra funding is always welcome, but have both the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council and the Scottish Further Education Funding Council been asked to make information technology a compulsory component of every course that students take?

We have great sympathy with the notion that every student in further and higher education should develop appropriate IT skills through their courses of study. We want that to happen; we have had discussions on the matter and we have allocated funds, with £22 million being spent this year and more to be spent in the future.

Parliament's taking of powers to direct our universities on how to educate their students would, however, be a hugely controversial step that many—if not all—members would oppose. If David Mundell and his colleagues were to reflect on that, they would have concerns about statutory powers being taken by ministers to make such directions to universities and colleges.

Is the minister aware that Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen makes all its students take the European Union computer driving licence and that that is a very good example of the activity that is going on in further and higher education? Does he also believe that it is something that the Scottish Parliament might consider for its members and staff?

I am aware of the good work that is being done at Robert Gordon University, which happens to be in my constituency. Not only does the university do what Elaine Thomson has outlined, but it has a virtual campus, which it thought initially would be of interest only to students living outside the city of Aberdeen—in other parts of Scotland or all around the world. I believe that the virtual campus is currently being accessed from 56 countries. There has been such a demand for it that every student in the university has access to it.

We want that type of initiative to gather momentum in our universities. We want to lead by example, but it would be inappropriate and certainly outside our statutory powers to direct universities.

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Carrick/City of Adelaide

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to secure the future of the Carrick/City of Adelaide, which is currently owned by the Scottish Maritime Museum in Irvine. (S1O-2301)

The future of the Carrick is primarily a matter for its owners, the Scottish Maritime Museum. The Scottish Executive is aware of the efforts that the museum is making to raise funds to restore the vessel.

The minister will be aware that the future of the ship will be placed in further jeopardy by the fact that the Scottish Maritime Museum is set to close its doors on Saturday, with the loss of eight jobs. Will the minister pledge to take urgent action to rescue the museum, and will she agree to investigate the possibility of a funding package for the Carrick, taking advantage of the interest that has been expressed by the Australian Government and by Sunderland City Council?

I am sorry to learn of the closure of the museum site at Irvine, with eight staff redundancies. As Irene Oldfather knows, non-national museums, including industrial museums, are the responsibility of those who create and operate them.

However, as part of the national cultural strategy, we will undertake an audit of the Scottish museums sector, with a view to setting up a restructuring fund. We have committed £250,000 of funding this year and £3 million over the next three years. I am aware of the discussions that are taking place on the financial rescue package. I have had discussions with Mrs Oldfather on the matter, and I am aware of the attempt to put together a package from a number of funding sources within the UK, the Australian Government and the New South Wales State Government. I cannot provide any further details at this stage, because the proposals are still being discussed and funding sources have not yet been confirmed.

Is the minister aware that the Carrick was removed from the River Clyde with the express agreement that its removal would give it a sustainable future, whether in a maritime museum or elsewhere? It seems that that decision, which was taken a good number of years ago, was mistaken, but it was an attempt to preserve a unique vessel for posterity.

Industrial museums will be given priority in the national audit. I am aware of the difficulties that the Scottish Maritime Museum has had and that the future of the Carrick is irretrievably bound up in what happens to the museum. As I have said, I am aware of the discussions that have taken place on a financial rescue package for the Carrick. As part of our audit of industrial museums, we will consider the Scottish Maritime Museum as a matter of urgency.

Will the minister consider being part of the solution for Scotland's industrial museums rather than part of the problem? The museum in Irvine will close on Monday. A great deal of hard work is being done and I pay tribute to Mrs Oldfather, who is deeply involved in that work.

Oh.

Order. I want to hear a question.

I am sorry that the chamber does not agree with me. The museum will close its doors this weekend. That will throw the issue of the Carrick into stark relief, as the museum will not be able to do anything. The minister has the power to ask the heritage lottery fund to reconsider the conditions and to start to help industrial museums. Her cultural strategy will not do that; it is too long term. I ask the minister to save Scotland's heritage.

The whole point of the national cultural strategy is to create a sustainable funding framework for the future. We have a short-term problem with the Carrick and the Scottish Maritime Museum. Funding has been put into the museum by the Scottish Executive. I have said that we will continue to have discussions. I will be delighted to meet Lord Maclay to discuss the museum and have agreed to such a meeting.

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Orthoptic Screening

To ask the Scottish Executive what guidelines exist for the screening of the vision of children by an orthoptist. (S1O-2318)

The British Orthoptic Society advises that the guidelines for the screening of children's vision by orthoptists are in the process of being updated. A revised set of guidelines will be available within the next few weeks.

I will be interested in the outcome of that revision. Given that many of the visual impairments that occur in children are best rectified before the children reach maturity and that such impairments can impact on their future life and job opportunities, does the minister agree that it is important that the training and recruitment of orthoptists in Scotland is maintained at a level that allows all Scotland's children to be screened?

I agree with Mrs Ferguson. We continue to monitor Scotland's need for orthoptists as well as their availability and access to training, in particular at two universities in northern England. Current vacancy levels indicate no recruitment difficulties. The importance of early screening is exactly why the national screening committee's child health sub-group has prioritised the matter and guidelines will be issued soon.

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Highland Council (Roads)

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are proposed to ensure that Highland Council is allocated sufficient resources to maintain the area's roads infrastructure. (S1O-2320)

The spending plans that I announced last week will deliver an extra £1.2 billion in total grant support for local government services over the next three years. That is an increase of 10.5 per cent above inflation. Those resources will enable Highland Council to invest in infrastructure across its range of responsibilities, but the precise level of investment in the local road network is a matter for the council.

The minister will be aware that Highland Council's geographic area is larger than the landmass of Wales and bigger than Belgium. Much of the area is served by substandard roads and bridges. Will the minister consider allocating a ring-fenced sum of money to Highland Council roads and transport department so that it can begin to address its difficulties in maintaining and improving the roads infrastructure?

I do not think that that would be appropriate. The system of grant-aided expenditure, which we are reviewing, is sufficient for that purpose. If there is a problem with investment in roads in the Highlands, the starting point for dealing with that problem would be for Highland Council to decide to spend up to its GAE level on roads maintenance, which it does not currently do. I would welcome that as a step in the right direction.

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Olympic Games

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it supports Scotland entering a team in the next and subsequent Olympic games. (S1O-2298)

No. [Interruption.]

Is that it?

Scotland is, and will remain, part of the United Kingdom. There is only one recognised Olympic committee for each nation state; in our case that is the British Olympic Association.

Is not the minister saddened that the 199 nations that are represented in their own right at the Olympics do not include Scotland? Is he aware that the Olympics is one of the few major sports events left at which Britain is favoured over Scotland? Do the minister and his colleagues accept that, as a Scottish Government, they should stand up for Scotland and argue for Scotland to take its place at the top table of world sport—or would a Scottish team expose the neglect of sport under this and previous unionist Governments—[Interruption.]

Order.

That neglect places us far behind smaller, newly emerging, independent nations such as Latvia, Lithuania and Slovenia—

Order. I think we have got the point.

If there was an Olympic sport of ranting, the nationalists would win. The previous time that they raised a similar issue was so that we could have a separate entry in the Eurovision song contest—how nations are made.

I will take the opportunity to congratulate all the outstanding performances by every member of the British Olympic team, including the Scottish members of the rowing and other teams. [Applause.] As an oarsman myself, albeit not a very good one, I convey the gratitude and commendation of the Parliament to Steve Redgrave, who at the age of 38, with diabetes, achieved a fifth gold medal. That is an exceptional achievement.

I also send my best wishes to all the competitors at the paralympics, a large number of whom are Scottish. Rhona Brankin will accompany them and I know that she will take the best wishes of the majority of members of the Parliament to our competitors in the paralympics.

I thank the minister for offering those congratulations. Will he be pespcific—[Laughter.] Will he be specific and offer congratulations to those Scots who have gained their medals through participation in Great Britain and Northern Ireland team events and does he agree that their success comes from the strength of the union bond? [Interruption.]

Order.

The only thing that Phil Gallie failed to say was "Stronger together, weaker apart." I mentioned the Scots; the two quadruple scullers, the individual in the eight who performed magnificently—as I said, I am especially interested in rowing—the cyclists and others. They were successful because they were part of an outstanding British team, and that is the way we are going to keep it.

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Rural Filling Stations

It seems a shame to come back down to earth.

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to ensure the survival of rural filling stations. (S1O-2313)

We are providing assistance for rural petrol stations through our rural petrol stations grant scheme.

I thank the minister for that short answer, but as far as people who own and use those filling stations are concerned, the scheme is not enough. Rural filling stations are closing at the rate of five a week. Unless the petrochemical giants can be persuaded to review their policy of passing on the increased fuel prices to independent distributors, our rural filling stations will have to pay more per litre for their supplies than motorists in towns pay. Is the Executive prepared to oversee the closure of virtually every rural filling station in Scotland?

I am surprised that Mr Fergusson should talk about the closure of "every" filling station. Thirty-four stations have applied to the grant scheme that I referred to earlier. They have done so because the scheme is likely to enhance their ability to survive the conditions to which Mr Fergusson referred.

I thought that Mr Fergusson might have alluded to the fact that take-up of that aid is rather mixed throughout Scotland. The Executive is concerned that the rural transport funding package is not being taken up evenly. We have therefore been doing research to evaluate the package and we will get the results in October. The current package includes rate relief support for rural stations, but the research may lead to a review of the package.

Is the minister aware that, in many cases, the oil majors will supply small private stations only at a higher price than they will supply neighbouring stations that belong to them and that retail petrol to the public? Will he consider making representations to the Office of Fair Trading on that practice?

Mr Morgan will be aware that the OFT has examined that issue. Somewhat disappointingly, it has simply stated the obvious—that the reason for the price differential in petrol was lower volumes and higher supply costs. The only area of Scotland for which the OFT has sought further information on possible exploitation is the Western Isles. I was disappointed by the OFT's response; but the very question that Mr Morgan put to me was one of the questions that were put to the OFT.

I want to tell the minister briefly about a conversation that I had with the Gunn family, owners of the Highland petrol station, which is 12 miles west of Stirling. The station's survival is threatened. Since the fuel crisis, the Gunns have seen petrol prices rise once and diesel prices rise twice. Nothing comparable has happened just a short distance away in Stirling. That situation is similar to the cases that Alasdair Morgan mentioned.

Order. We must have a question.

The oil companies must be forced to realise that they must treat everybody fairly, in rural and urban areas.

I am not quite sure what the question was. If there was one, I think it should have been directed at the chairmen and managing directors of the oil companies.

The support that the Scottish Executive gives came about as a result of two studies—one into petrol stations in rural Scotland, and one into car dependence in rural Scotland. It was clear that the most effective policy for the Executive to follow was to give support for capital expenditure, without which those stations would simply fail.