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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 23 Jan 2003

Meeting date: Thursday, January 23, 2003


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE


Fire Services Dispute

To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with Her Majesty's Government regarding an early and just settlement to the fire dispute. (S1O-6265)

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):

Ministers and officials are in regular contact with colleagues in Whitehall about the fire dispute. However, the dispute will be resolved only by the Fire Brigades Union returning to the negotiating table for meaningful discussions with the local authority employers. What is wanted is a fair and affordable deal for firefighters and for the public whom they serve.

Mr McAllion:

Will the minister try to explain to his colleagues in Westminster that the Bain agenda of funding any wage increase through station closures, the loss of thousands of jobs and the freeing-up of management to impose change bears all the hallmarks of the Thatcherite agenda that Labour Governments were elected to reverse? Will the minister assure me that the Scottish Executive will use its influence to resist any attempt to place preconditions on the current round of negotiations that tie the FBU and the firefighters into the Bain agenda?

Mr Wallace:

It is clear that the negotiations are a matter for the employers—it would not be for the Executive to intervene directly in those negotiations. However, I would say that any increase above the 4 per cent already offered must be paid for by modernisation, which means giving up outdated practices—for example, full-time firefighters should be allowed to work on the same crew as part-time firefighters and management should be able to change the shift system of two nights on and four days off in order to provide a better service. The Bain inquiry report covered several areas that flag up the need for modernisation. Last April, of course, the Executive published a consultation paper on modernising the fire service, which has received widespread support. I emphasise that a pay increase beyond 4 per cent must be linked to, and paid for by, modernisation.

Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):

Will the minister confirm that he understands that all matters relating to the fire service in Scotland, including pay, are devolved to the Scottish Parliament? Does he intend to proceed with the Bain recommendations or is the Scottish Executive's intention still to develop a distinctive Scottish fire service, as outlined in the consultation paper "The Scottish Fire Service of The Future"?

Mr Wallace:

It is wrong to say that pay negotiations are devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Pay negotiations are the responsibility of Scottish local authorities. It is important to make that distinction.

We believe that the Bain report outlines sensible proposals for the modernisation of the fire service, including the removal of outdated practices. It is interesting to note that many of the matters on which the Bain report reflected were dealt with in our consultation paper, which, as I said, was published last April. The existence of that paper shows the seriousness with which the Scottish Executive takes the modernisation of Scotland's fire service.

Will the minister say whether the diversion of police officers from other duties during fire strikes has had a disadvantageous effect on crime levels and whether that is a matter of concern for him and his department?

Mr Wallace:

I am certainly not aware that that diversion has had any material impact on crime levels, nor have I been made aware of such a concern among chief constables. This week, I visited the headquarters of Fife constabulary in Glenrothes, where the joint operational communications centre is situated. I was there with the chief constable, other senior police officers, representatives of the military and senior fire officers and it was in no way suggested that there had been any difficulties for the police. In fact, the message was that communications between the police and the military had been working well.

Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):

Is the minister aware that 75 per cent of fire fatalities in Scotland and 75 per cent of fire rescues in Scotland happen between the hours of 6 pm and
8 am? Despite that fact, the Bain report suggests that fire stations should be closed during those hours, with firefighters on call. Does the minister agree with the FBU that the Bain report, rather than being a basis for solving the dispute, is actually the cause of the dispute? The Executive should be prepared to say no to the Bain report and take heed of the modernisation that the FBU has been implementing over the past two decades.

Mr Wallace:

It cannot possibly be said that the Bain report was the cause of the dispute. The parties were engaged in negotiations that appeared to be heading nowhere when the UK Government instituted the Bain committee to try to find a way forward. I believe that the Bain report suggests a series of commonsense reforms that will lead to a better, safer service that can save more lives. I make it clear that we would not want to support anything that would not lead to a safer service. Our objective is to have a safer service.

Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):

I am sure that the chamber will join me in expressing sincere condolences to the family of the late Mr Heenan, who lost his life in my constituency during the firefighters' strike on Tuesday. Can the minister assure me that the issues surrounding that tragic death will be investigated to ensure that lessons are learned?

Mr Wallace:

I associate myself and my colleagues with the message of sympathy and condolence that Paul Martin has expressed to the family of the deceased. It is important that lessons should be learned. My understanding is that the matter is, first and foremost, for the police and the procurator fiscal. I will draw Paul Martin's comments to the attention of the Lord Advocate, who has primary responsibility in that area.


Domestic Abuse

To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken to prevent domestic abuse. (S1O-6292)

The Minister for Social Justice (Ms Margaret Curran):

Tackling domestic abuse is a high priority for the Executive and we are taking action in all areas of prevention, protection and provision. Two main strands specifically address prevention issues. First, to continue our awareness-raising campaign, a new television advertisement, called "Dolls House", has been developed. It was screened on boxing day and will continue until the end of January, supported by press advertisements. Secondly, a draft national prevention strategy has been circulated for consultation. It will be revised in the light of comments received and will be published in the summer.

Mr McCabe:

I know that the minister agrees with me that children suffer as a result of domestic violence. Will she assure the chamber that the existing initiatives are properly focused to support children and that we are learning from those experiences and refining our approach?

Ms Curran:

We have been examining the effects of domestic abuse on children and have been developing services appropriately. We know that, in 90 per cent of domestic abuse incidents, children are in the same, or the next, room. Scottish Women's Aid estimates that 100,000 children in Scotland are living with domestic abuse. As many members will know, I announced £800,000 of funding to ensure that support workers are available for children in refuges. The clear evidence is that children can suffer severe trauma when they witness domestic abuse. We must give the clear message to children and women in Scotland that, with the right support services, there is life after domestic abuse and they need not tolerate it.

Are there any plans to pilot domestic abuse courts?

Ms Curran:

As many in the chamber will know following a recent debate, one of the sub-groups that is working on the national prevention strategy is considering legislation. It has produced a paper that examines the possibility of piloting domestic abuse courts, but no specific decision has been taken as yet on that issue.

What action is the Executive taking to address the wider issue of violence against women and children in our society?

Ms Curran:

That was a matter for discussion at the most recent meeting of the national prevention strategy group. We recognise that there is a connection between domestic abuse and wider issues of violence against women. A decision has therefore been taken to widen the scope of the group to enable it to consider those issues.


Dundee City Council (Meetings)

To ask the Scottish Executive when it last met Dundee City Council and what issues were discussed. (S1O-6260)

The Minister for Finance and Public Services (Mr Andy Kerr):

We are in frequent contact with Dundee City Council on a range of issues. I met representatives of the council, along with other local authorities, on 2 December to discuss local government finance issues. Moreover, I was in Dundee in August to launch the successful dundee.com initiative.

Shona Robison:

During the minister's meetings with the council, councillors might have reminded him of the comments that his colleague the Minister for Education and Young People made in Parliament and in the press, which led everyone to believe that the funding to include Dundee's Catholic schools in the current public-private partnership bid had been secured. However, at this week's meeting of Dundee City Council's education committee, the chief executive reported that he had held discussions with Scottish Executive officials and that no decision had been reached on whether Dundee will get that money. Does the minister agree that the reality seems to fall far short of the assurances that the Minister for Education and Young People gave before Christmas? Can he give us a definite answer today? Is Dundee getting the money?

Mr Kerr:

The Executive seeks to modernise the school estate in Dundee with the council through resources from the Executive. The council has come back to the Executive with a change of plans. We have allocated resources throughout Scotland to modernise and rebuild many of our schools, which require such work. In Dundee, it is up to the council to decide how best to deliver that work locally. The Executive has made a financial commitment to the council. The council has changed its plans, but our financial commitment to it remains—we will support it to the degree to which we said we would. If the council changes its plans, it must take account of that in the local planning processes.

Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):

Does the minister accept that at the root of Dundee's council tax problems are those middle-to-high earners who work and play in the city but choose to live outside it to avoid Dundee taxes? Does he accept that, until the Executive tackles that issue—either by reforming Dundee's local government boundaries or by imposing a metropolitan tax, which would ensure that those who benefit from the city's services make some contribution to them—the problem will not be solved?

Mr Kerr:

The cities review reflected some of the points that John McAllion makes on the importance of our cities. The Executive recognises that importance, which is why we are supporting the cities review with £90 million.

The boundaries issue is not as simple as John McAllion and others might think. If we were to bring certain parts of other authorities, as is sought in this case, into Dundee's boundaries, the grant-aided expenditure calculation would change. Once we made that calculation, we would find that the actual increase of resources available to the council would be marginal because of the net effect of the way in which we calculate the allocation of local government resources. Although that is not an answer to set the heather alight, it is factually correct to say that, if the change were to happen, the increase in Dundee City Council's net income would be only marginal.

The Executive seeks to support the metropolitan status of our cities through the cities review. In the case of Dundee, the Executive seeks to ensure that the local councils adjacent to Dundee City Council co-operate much more effectively on the delivery of services throughout the city and its wider environment. The Executive acknowledges that the city of Dundee is a vital part of that city region.


Vaccines (Mercury)

To ask the Scottish Executive what concerns it has regarding the presence of mercury in some infant vaccines. (S1O-6290)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):

The Committee on Safety of Medicines has advised that, with the exception of hypersensitivity reactions, which typically include skin rashes or local swelling at the site of injection, there is no evidence of harm from the levels of thiomersal contained in some vaccines. That view is shared by the World Health Organisation and by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which advises the Executive on immunisation policy.

Mrs Smith:

The minister is, I am sure, aware of public concerns that the mercury compound in the diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis vaccine may pose a risk. He will also be aware that regulators in the United States of America and the European Union have recommended that manufacturers should phase out the use of the compound. Will he consider launching an investigation into the matter or follow the example of the Northern Ireland department of health in actively seeking an alternative DTP vaccine that does not contain mercury?

Malcolm Chisholm:

The reality is that the compound is being phased out. I think that the story started because of an entry on a website, which caused a lot of publicity last week. That entry was changed because it was contrary to the best scientific evidence. I quoted three reputable sources in my answer. My duty in such matters is to follow the best scientific evidence. That is precisely what the Executive is doing.

Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):

Is the minister aware that the mercury-containing compound that is used in many vaccines is simply a preservative and that vaccines without it are as fit for purpose and effective as those with it? Is he also aware that the US Institute of Medicine has warned of a biologically plausible link between thiomersal and autism and that, accordingly, mercury-containing vaccines are no longer used in the US? In the light of that information, will he commit himself to phasing out the use of mercury in vaccines in Scotland within the shortest possible time scale?

Malcolm Chisholm:

As I indicated, there is a commitment to find an alternative, but that alternative must be effective. Members will have read the letter from the deputy chief medical officer in The Scotsman earlier this week. He pointed out:

"UK experts have advised us that preparations containing thiomersal offer better protection against whooping cough than preparations not containing thiomersal."

Action is being taken to find an alternative to thiomersal, but the key issue—aside from the fact that I must follow the scientific advice that is given to me—must be that we use the most effective protection against life-threatening diseases.

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

Given the fact that two recent reviews into a link between thiomersal and childhood development by the Committee on Safety of Medicines and the Institute of Medicine in the United States were inconclusive, may concerned parents in Scotland now choose a DTP vaccine that does not contain mercury?

Malcolm Chisholm:

They can do so, but we have to be clear about the scientific evidence on the matter. The message from the Parliament on that must be clear. I have referred to the Committee on Safety of Medicines and to the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation and I will close by referring to the WHO global advisory committee on vaccine safety, which concluded:

"there is no evidence of toxicity in infants, children or adults exposed to thiomersal (containing ethyl mercury) in vaccines.

Based on these considerations, the committee has concluded and advises accordingly that there is no reason on grounds of safety to change current immunization practices with thiomersal-containing vaccines."

As a precautionary measure, thiomersal will be phased out, but people have to heed the scientific advice and evidence and not spread unnecessary alarm.


Drugs (Seizures and Arrests)

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to increase the numbers of drug seizures and arrests. (S1O-6277)

The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):

In 2001, we set the Scottish police service targets to increase the seizures of class A drugs and the detection of drug trafficking offences by 25 per cent by 2004. The Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency, which we established in 2000, is playing an important part in achieving those targets. Operations involving the agency have so far led to the seizure of controlled drugs with a potential street value of just over £92 million and 477 people have been arrested for engaging in drug-trafficking activities.

Maureen Macmillan:

I commend the Executive's commitment to addressing this serious matter. Is the minister aware of the distress that is caused in streets and in blocks of flats in towns in the Highlands and Islands and elsewhere by small-time drug dealers and their clients? Will he advise me on how communities—and community organisations such as Alness Mothers Against Drugs in Easter Ross—that often feel intimidated can be encouraged to work with the police and others in order to put an end to such activities?

Hugh Henry:

Maureen Macmillan identifies a problem that is common to many communities in Scotland. She refers to an important group of people who are campaigning against drug activity: families who are attempting, in response to their experiences, to help others in the community. There are a number of similar groups in Scotland that are doing an excellent job.

I highlight for the benefit of Maureen Macmillan and other members an initiative that was recently launched in my area. Renfrewshire against drugs was launched by Strathclyde police and is supported by the Paisley Partnership. The initiative provides information, leaflets and posters to local communities, asking people to give information—anonymously, if necessary—to the police using pre-paid envelopes or a confidential telephone line. We hope that, through the initiative, people will have the confidence to give information about drug-dealing activities in their communities. We believe that ordinary men, women and young people can play a part in the war against drugs. The police have given a commitment to act sensitively and vigorously on the information that is provided. I hope that the initiative will prove that communities can be effective in working in partnership with other agencies.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

The issue is, of course, all about breaking the cycle of dependency that keeps the dealers in business. I commend the work of the drugs court in Glasgow, which the Justice 1 Committee recently visited—the idea for the court was pioneered by the Scottish National Party. Why has such provision not been extended to alcohol abuse, which is a far greater catalyst for crime in the community?

Hugh Henry:

We have made it clear on a number of occasions that we will assess the effectiveness of the drugs courts. If they prove to be effective, we will consider whether their work should be extended. We should consider what the drugs courts are achieving and what the cost and administrative implications of their work are. Undoubtedly, alcohol abuse and the violence to which it sometimes leads are a huge social issue. However, let us focus on what we are doing to tackle drug-related offences. Let us wait to see the results of that work.

Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):

Does the minister agree that, although the SDEA and our police forces should do all that they can to increase drug seizures and to apprehend drug dealers, the Government's figures suggest that increased seizures are not disrupting supply or leading to a rise in the street price of class A drugs? Does he agree that that strongly supports the Executive's policy of focusing far more on cutting demand, through increased investment in prevention and treatment programmes?

Hugh Henry:

Both the justice department and the health department have done what the member is suggesting. Prevention is an important strand of our activities. However, we recognise that we should try to get people who are addicted off drugs and that we should support rehabilitation. The drug treatment and testing orders have been very successful and have recently been extended to other areas of Scotland. They have led to a marked improvement in the success of attempts to get people who are involved in criminal activity because of their drug habit away not just from their drug habit, but from the criminal activity that is associated with it.


Parking (Railway Stations)

To ask the Scottish Executive what its position is on the provision of car parking for commuters at railway stations. (S1O-6286)

The Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning (Iain Gray):

The provision of car parks at stations is a matter for the rail industry, in conjunction with local authorities. However, the Scottish Executive is always willing to discuss with rail operators and/or transport authorities any proposals to extend car park provision for commuters at rail stations, where suppressed rail demand can clearly be shown.

Mr Home Robertson:

The minister may be aware that ScotRail provides free car parking at six of the seven stations in East Lothian, but that Great North Eastern Railway has just imposed a charge of £2.50 a day on the long-suffering commuters of Dunbar. The introduction of the charge has led to a full-scale boycott of the station car park. Would the minister be surprised to hear that there is now serious congestion in neighbouring streets, that rail passengers are angry and that GNER is getting next to no revenue from the charges? I appreciate that the minister has no responsibility for the management of GNER, but when he next meets representatives of the company will he tell them that they are being phenomenally silly?

Iain Gray:

I may choose my words differently, but I agree that it is desirable that modes of transport should work together. That is why only yesterday we announced several hundred million pounds of investment in the transport infrastructure of central Scotland, covering not just road but rail and other public transport. In general, I would expect station operators to work with others to consider the wider implications of decisions that they take about car parking. In this case, that is a decision for GNER.

The minister may be aware that Aberdeenshire Council has a very good car park adjacent to Laurencekirk station. Will he assist the community by supporting the reopening of a station to go with the car park?

Iain Gray:

When asked about Laurencekirk station—as happens regularly now—I have always made it clear that Aberdeenshire Council, in partnership with ScotRail and Network Rail, is responsible for developing the proposal. However, I repeat that we are very much in favour of different modes of transport working together. We are willing to work with anyone who is trying to pursue that line.

Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):

I welcome the investment that the Scottish Executive made just before Christmas in car park and park-and-ride services in Fife and the Lothians. I also welcome the announcements that the minister has made this week. Does he agree that, for the reopening of the Bathgate to Airdrie line to be fully successful, adequate car parking facilities must be made available at the stations? What impact does he expect the reopening of the line to have on congestion in the central belt?

Iain Gray:

I expect the reopening of the Airdrie to Bathgate line to provide a new, powerful public transport alternative and to reduce congestion in the transport infrastructure of central Scotland. The strength of the central Scotland corridor study was that it was not just a study of roads or rail but a multimodal study that considered how the different transport options interact with one another. A great deal of work is still to be done on the detail and I am sure that issues such as car parking facilities will be part of that. The general principle and thrust is of different modes of transport working together, which is better for people and better for business in central Scotland.


A72 (Repairs)

To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with Scottish Borders Council regarding any application by the council under the Bellwin scheme and any other sources of funding for repairs to the A72. (S1O-6289)

I am not aware of any representation from Scottish Borders Council about the funding of repairs to the A72.

Christine Grahame:

Is the minister aware that the A72 is the main road across the central Borders to Glasgow and that it was completely closed for two and half weeks because of a landslide? It now operates on a single lane with traffic lights and it is not projected to open until the end of the month—that is four weeks for repairs to a main road. Given his recent announcement of millions for central Scotland for the reopening of the Bathgate line and for roads, what commitment will he give, if any, on capital expenditure for roads or rail in the Borders, or does he get the support of his Liberal Democrat colleagues there gratis?

Lewis Macdonald:

To answer the question in the context in which it was framed, it is quite clear that our responsibility for the road and rail network in south-east Scotland, as elsewhere, is to support the infrastructure, including the trunk-road network. The responsibility for the A72 lies with the local authority, as the local roads authority.

Christine Grahame comments on the time that it has taken to reopen the A72. It is worth reminding members that the road was closed by a landslide on 27 December and that Scottish Borders Council has taken measures to reopen it very quickly indeed. The Bellwin scheme is designed to address emergencies. Scottish Borders Council has clearly addressed that issue and if it wishes to come to us to seek additional capital consent for longer-term issues on the road, ministers would consider such an approach on its merits in the usual way.

Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):

I do not wish to engage in yah-boo politics, so I will not. As the minister knows, the A72 is a vital road in the Borders, running through the Tweed valley. On several occasions over the years, it has been closed following landslides or subsidence at a particular corner. Constant short-term repairs are not solving the basic geo-engineering problems on that difficult site and it seems likely that substantial realignment and engineering construction might be required to solve the problem permanently.

Question.

I ask for the minister's assurance that the Executive will consider carefully the possibility of giving the technical advice and funding assistance for what would be an exceptionally expensive and yet vital construction.

Lewis Macdonald:

I would certainly be happy for Scottish Executive road engineers to talk to colleagues in Scottish Borders Council. The member will be aware that the roads department of Scottish Borders Council has an exceptional technical reputation. The way that it has dealt with the problem of the A72 has demonstrated that it is capable of dealing with such issues. On the wider question of the possible financial implications of future work on the road, any application for capital consent would, as I said a moment ago, be treated in the usual way.

Question 8 has been withdrawn.


Schools (Entrepreneurial Education)

To ask the Scottish Executive what its plans are to encourage entrepreneurial education in secondary schools. (S1O-6269)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):

One of the recommendations of the recently published review group report, "Determined to Succeed", is a programme of entrepreneurial activities in secondary schools. The Scottish budget has allocated £40 million to take forward the recommendations and we shall respond in full in the near future.

Ms Alexander:

Can we take it that the minister is confirming that we will have the Executive's response in this session and not the next?

When the Executive presents its response, I ask the minister to look as widely as does the report, and perhaps a little wider, at how we can promote enterprise education throughout the curriculum and enterprising attitudes among all young Scots, irrespective of the career options that they pursue subsequently.

Cathy Jamieson:

I reassure the member that we are taking the matter seriously. Wendy Alexander will know from work that is going on in her constituency of the work that is already under way in primary schools, and indeed in some secondary schools, on enterprise challenges. However, we are concerned that that has not progressed as far as it ought to have done. There are other opportunities in the school curriculum to bring into schools people with business and entrepreneurial expertise to work with our school staff and our young people. We certainly want to maximise such opportunities.

Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):

Does the minister accept that the spirit of entrepreneurial confidence is hardly fostered by a Government that seeks to promote the myth that Scotland is somehow subsidised and too poor to acquire the normal powers of a normal country? Would not school children as well as everyone else in Scotland benefit from an Executive that was willing to take on the same economic powers as every other country on the planet?

Cathy Jamieson:

People will not be surprised to know that I do not share Andrew Wilson's view on that matter. School pupils throughout Scotland are benefiting from an Executive that is putting record resources into education, is committed to closing the opportunity gap, and is making sure that every pupil gets the best out of the education system. That is the way forward.

Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):

Previous schemes dating back, to my knowledge, to the early 1990s have been successful. Does the minister agree that in encouraging entrepreneurial skills in schools, a sound baseline would be to demonstrate to children that the profit motive is an honourable objective?

Cathy Jamieson:

I can quote to Mr Gallie a good example of entrepreneurial education in a primary school, in Forehill in Ayr, which is in my constituency and with which he may be familiar. Young primary pupils have taken the opportunity to produce calendars from which they are making profits that they are reinvesting in school funds and education.


Housing

To ask the Scottish Executive when it will report on "Review of the First Year of the Mandatory Licensing of Houses in Multiple Occupation in Scotland." (S1O-6296)

The findings of the research report, together with the responses to the consultation paper on possible changes to exemptions from licensing, are under active consideration. We expect to announce our conclusions in the near future.

Pauline McNeill:

The minister will be aware that I represent a constituency with an exceptionally high number of HMOs, particularly in the Hillhead area. Is he prepared to examine the aspect of the regime that means that an HMO licence can be given before planning consent is given—planning consent that can be crucial in ensuring that the necessary fire exits and windows are in lawful positions? Is he concerned about the operation of the HMO regime and the fact that some landlords are not applying for licences, while those who are applying for them are paying exceptionally high fees?

Des McNulty:

On the first point, licensing authorities will not generally grant a licence until the property has been brought up to the required standard. They may grant a licence with conditions if they are confident that the property will be brought up to standard within a reasonable time. If planning permission was not granted, and the work therefore could not be carried out, the owner would be in breach of the conditions of the licence and the licence would be suspended—there are mechanisms under planning law to allow that to happen.

On the second point, I am examining in detail some of the issues that arise out of the experience of Glasgow. Officials from the Scottish Executive are in communication with people in Glasgow to highlight some of the issues and the approach that is being taken there. I agreed last week to meet Pauline McNeill, and I am sure that the matter will be the subject of part of our discussions.

Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):

As Pauline McNeill pointed out, one of the key findings of the review of HMOs is that landlords are not coming forward for licensing. In fact, only half of the HMOs have been licensed. I would like the minister to respond to that.

Is the minister aware that another key finding of the report was the underfunding of local authorities? Indeed, the report states:

"Unless addressed, continued under-resourcing … will constrain increased effectiveness of the scheme, as will evasion of licensing."

Can the minister guarantee that if local authorities—particularly Glasgow City Council—require extra funding, the Executive will accommodate them?

Des McNulty:

Any such funding would need to be taken from other activities. The Executive holds to the principle that where regulation is necessary, it should be paid for by those who are regulated. That is the principle on which the matter is being taken forward.

On rogue landlords, significant progress has been made on the number of licences that are being taken forward and the number of HMOs that are being regulated. The issues about rogue landlords are being considered. We will examine how the scheme's penalties—which are significant for people who breach the conditions—can be more readily applied where rogue landlords operate.


National Health Service

To ask the Scottish Executive what its priorities are for improving the NHS. (S1O-6291)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):

The priorities for improving the NHS are set out in the local health plan guidance that was issued to the NHS in October 2002. Among the priorities are service redesign, patient and public involvement, work force development, waiting times and health care- acquired infection.

Dennis Canavan:

Is the minister aware that the top priority for the people of Forth valley is a new general hospital on the site of the Royal Scottish national hospital at Larbert? Now that the development consultant's report has come out in favour of that location, which is likely to be approved at next week's Forth Valley NHS Board meeting, will he give his formal approval at the earliest opportunity, so that the people of Forth valley have the new state-of-the-art hospital that they need and deserve?

Malcolm Chisholm:

One principle to which I referred in my previous answer was patient and public involvement, which has two parts: engaging with and responding to patients; and involving the wider public. So far, NHS Forth Valley has had a good consultation process that has gone beyond the old definition of consultation, because it has involved the public more widely and earlier. I am confident that the organisation will continue in that spirit as it proceeds towards a decision. The decision is for NHS Forth Valley and it would be wrong for me to pre-empt that decision. I look forward to receiving the organisation's view in due course.

Does the minister agree that it was opportunistic and reprehensible of the SNP to leak the property consultant's report on the new acute hospital site at such a sensitive point in the consultation process?

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

Dr Simpson, please wait a minute. I have a point of order.

Will the minister take into account Stirling Council's valuable work on proposing sites in any review that he undertakes of health board proposals?

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Is it correct for a member to make allegations without providing evidence for them? Will you ask Dr Simpson to withdraw his wholly inaccurate remarks?

Members are responsible for their own statements.

Malcolm Chisholm:

It is regrettable that the report was leaked, but I am sure that NHS Forth Valley will give the report full consideration when it meets next week. I am sure that the Forth valley public want to know about the report in detail, rather than to read leaks in the newspaper.

Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

Is the minister aware—I am sure that he is—of his recent figures that show a dramatic decline in the number of D-grade nurses who work in the national health service? Does he agree that that helps to prove the case for an 11 per cent increase in nurses' pay—as pledged by the SNP—over and above the agenda for change deal? That would not only reward nurses, but give Scotland a competitive edge in attracting nurses to work in the Scottish health service.

Order.

If a Scottish deal can be struck for consultants, why cannot one be struck for nurses?

Order. That is quite enough.

Malcolm Chisholm:

The selective use of statistics is also highly regrettable. In the past year, I have been very committed to the recruitment and retention of nurses. I am the first person in the chamber to admit that we want to and shall recruit more nurses. We will do more than we have done, and we have taken many initiatives this year to retain nurses.

It is not right to quote the figure for one grade when the number of staff in all the grades above it is increasing. We must consider the overall number of qualified nurses, which has increased in the past three years. I want that number to increase more, so I am not saying that everything is fine. However, it is wrong to pluck out one figure that does not give the total picture.

Under the agenda for change proposals on pay, the grade-D nurses to whom Shona Robison referred will benefit substantially in their starting salary. Shona Robison should also remember the 250 extra nurses who are starting training this year and the first-ever, one-year guarantee of work in the NHS for all nurses who complete their training.


Audiology Services

To ask the Scottish Executive what its timetable is for considering the recommendations of the audiology services review. (S1O-6287)

The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Mrs Mary Mulligan):

We are still considering the many recommendations in the audiology report. It is not possible at this stage to give a definite date for a response, but an announcement will be made as soon as possible.

The member will be aware of the £1.5 million that I announced last week for the purchase of audiology equipment, the need for which was highlighted in the review.

Mr Rumbles:

I welcome that £1.5 million. However, does the minister agree that it is still a disgraceful state of affairs when deaf and hard-of-hearing people in Grampian and many parts of Scotland who would benefit from digital hearing aids are not receiving them on the NHS? Will she give a commitment that the Executive will tackle the issue as part of its consideration of the recommendations of the review?

Mrs Mulligan:

It is slightly misleading of Mr Rumbles to say that digital hearing aids are not available on the NHS. The fact is that 17 types are available at present for cases in which they meet the needs of individual patients.

One of the reasons for last week's announcement on additional finance for capital equipment was to ensure that digital hearing aids could be fitted appropriately, and the money will go to that service.