Planning etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Resumed debate.
Good morning. We pick up where we left off yesterday. Members should refer to the bill as amended at stage 2—SP bill 51A; the marshalled list; a supplement to the marshalled list, which contains four manuscript amendments; and the agreed groupings of amendments that I have selected for debate.
The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for five minutes for the first division this morning. The period of voting for the first division will be 30 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate, and 30 seconds for all other divisions.
Section 11—Public availability of information as to how planning applications have been dealt with
We have reached group 16. Amendment 121, in the name of Alex Neil, is grouped with amendments 27 and 28.
Amendment 121 would close a loophole in the law, whereby all advice given by officials to councillors on a planning committee is on record but additional evidence that is submitted orally at the planning meeting is not recorded.
In a recent case in South Lanarkshire, additional oral evidence that had been provided at the planning meeting could not be used in an appeal to the minister against the planning committee's decision, because there was no record of it. At least two of the statutory consultees challenged the veracity of the oral advice that was given at the meeting, which included an alleged statement of their position. However, because there was no record of the advice, they could not submit their challenge to be considered by the minister as part of the formal review procedure.
When I lodged a similar amendment at stage 2, the Deputy Minister for Communities said that we must be careful not to overload the planning register with every detail of every planning application, however big or small. I have great sympathy with that position. However, in substantive planning applications that the planning committee considers, additional oral evidence or information that is presented at committee meetings should be a matter of public record—just as meetings of the Scottish Parliament are on record—so that there can be no dispute about what was said, either at the late stages of the planning process or at an appeal. Amendment 121 sets out a narrow definition of the additional information that would be required in the planning register and in the public domain. The approach is essential.
In the interests of effective recording of oral contributions and cost-effective delivery of a record, would it be sufficient to make a tape recording of the meeting, which could be referred to?
Yes. Amendment 121 is drafted to allow local authorities to keep
"an electronic or written record of any oral evidence or advice provided".
How the record was made would be a matter for the local authority. It would probably be cheaper to record meetings electronically. My proposal would address the minister's concerns at stage 2 that the cost of keeping a record would be excessive, because it would cost next to nothing to put a tape recorder at the front of the room and record everything that was said at the meeting. If there was a dispute about or a need to check what was said, the record would be available to all participants.
Currently, additional oral information or advice offered at a planning meeting is not subject to scrutiny or challenge, because it is not recorded. By recording the oral evidence, we would strengthen the arm of everyone involved in the planning process, because a dispute about what was said could be resolved without recourse to the courts. Amendment 121 is sensible—as members would expect of an amendment that I lodged—and would provide a cost-effective way of improving and enhancing the democracy and transparency of the planning process.
I move amendment 121.
Amendment 121 would require an electronic or written record of oral evidence or advice given in planning authority proceedings on every planning application to be kept on the register. Although the amendment reins in the requirement for a verbatim record that Alex Neil proposed at stage 2, it is not clear what range of oral evidence or advice would be included in the record or in what circumstances.
Section 11 will allow us to specify in subordinate legislation that a report on each planning application be kept on the planning register. Each report will include a description of the proposal, reference to relevant development plan policies, the issues raised by consultees and objectors, the planning authority's decision, any conditions and the reasons for the decision. The aim is to improve transparency by having a clear and accessible explanation of the decision on every planning application.
As I said at stage 2, although it would be possible to press for more and more detail on every application, a balance needs to be struck between producing a reasonable amount of information on each case and adding undue burdens on planning authorities. Our proposals strike that balance. Individuals who want to pursue concerns about particular cases have powerful tools at their disposal under the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, which allows people to obtain more information from local authorities, including minutes of committee meetings. Therefore, I recommend that the Parliament reject amendment 121.
Amendments 27 and 28 relate to planning legislation that we commenced earlier this year to apply the planning acts to the Crown. As I explained yesterday in relation to related amendments 23 to 26 and 29 to 31, in bringing planning controls to bear on the Crown new provisions were needed to accommodate the Crown's particular responsibilities. Amendments 27 and 28 relate to the inclusion of relevant information on planning registers and information on lists of applications. I ask members to support them.
I can see where Alex Neil is coming from, but the approach in amendment 121 would be impractical, not just because of the cost and difficulty of providing a good record of noisy meetings but because amendment 121 would apply to all planning meetings and therefore not just to "substantive" applications as he suggested. A case might be made for keeping a record of meetings at which controversial applications are discussed, but a record should not be kept in every case.
At stage 2, the minister told the Communities Committee that all issues raised by consultees and objectors should be included in the planning register, as she said again today. However, it is not possible to meet that requirement if there is no record of what the consultees and objectors say at the planning meeting. The requirement can be met only if oral information and evidence given at the meeting is recorded.
How can we have freedom of information if the information is not there to begin with? It goes without saying that an FOI request is redundant if there is no record of what was said at the meeting.
Dave Petrie's comment about cost was nonsense. There is a verbatim record of every full council meeting in the country—sometimes that is unfortunate. Meetings are recorded electronically and sometimes in writing. Every meeting of the Parliament is recorded. The logic of the Tory and Labour position is that the committees in the Parliament should issue only their minutes and we should not have a verbatim record of what is said. Why is having a verbatim record right and good enough for the committees of this Parliament but not right and good enough for planning committees when they take crucial decisions?
If the bill is to have credibility, it must extend the democratic rights of consultees and objectors. My simple, cost-effective, easy-to-understand amendment would do that. I beg members to reject the advice of the minister and the civil servants who wrote her speech.
The question is, that amendment 121 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
As this is the first vote, I suspend the meeting for five minutes while the division bell is rung.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
We will now proceed with the division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 74, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 121 disagreed to.
Amendment 27 moved—[Johann Lamont]—and agreed to.
Section 12—Keeping and publication of lists of applications
Amendment 28 moved—[Johann Lamont]—and agreed to.
Before section 13
Group 17 is on determination of applications—public health and sustainable development. Amendment 79, in the name of Donald Gorrie, is grouped with amendments 80, 84 and 155.
My two amendments in this group are on very different subjects. Amendment 79 is intended to make it absolutely clear in the bill that health is a relevant issue in planning applications. The minister claimed at stage 2 that that was already clear, but my experience of being a member of the Communities Committee—before I got pit oot of it—tells me that it is not clear. People who try to oppose masts and suchlike on health grounds are told that health is not a relevant planning issue. It is important to make it clear in the bill that the health of individuals and general public health are relevant issues and material considerations. They would not determine whether planning permission was granted, but they are relevant when a planning authority is dealing with an application. We should err on the safe side when there is a question of health. It is better to duplicate something that already exists somewhere else than to have any doubt about whether health issues are relevant. I hope that the minister and Parliament accept that point of view.
Amendment 80 makes two points relating to energy conservation and microrenewable energy systems. It would provide that applications to improve energy conservation or to install microrenewables, such as little wheels, windmills or sun lights, in existing buildings would be assumed to be approved unless there was a strong argument against them on environmental grounds. There might be some places where a particular development would cause harm, but the assumption should be in favour of the application.
The second and larger issue is that, unless it can be demonstrated that a new building will have good standards of energy conservation and make good use of microrenewables, the application should be refused. When it comes to energy issues, our standard of housebuilding is lamentable compared with standards in almost the whole of Europe. We really must improve our building standards, for housing and for all other buildings. Amendment 80 is an effort to do that.
Other members have different proposals with similar aims, but it would be worth while to use planning as a tool in the contest to improve the quality of our buildings. That should be attractive to the Government, because it would improve things without costing the Government any money. Surely that must be a good argument.
I move amendment 79.
I agree with Donald Gorrie: health should be a material consideration in the granting of planning permission. That is why I lodged amendment 84.
I could give several pertinent examples. If someone is building a house extension, the work might go on for a considerable time and building materials, debris and noise might affect the neighbourhood. There might be a spot development. An existing development might have a small piece of land that gets built on. People might have been living in the area for a long time, and the health aspects will be very important.
I know of a development in Edinburgh in which a house will be demolished and flats will be erected on the site. Along with the demolition, there will be dust and noise. When such applications come in, people should be able to object. Conditions should be attached to the applications regarding activities on the site.
On a larger scale, the days of people having large pylons at the bottom of their gardens are, thankfully, past, but issues remain to do with telecommunications masts.
Given all the possible situations, I cannot see why the minister is resistant to the ideas in amendment 84. We will discuss good neighbour agreements when we discuss later sections of the bill, but such agreements are not enforceable. If conditions relating to health were attached to planning applications, they could be enforced and neighbours would have a remedy other than the courts.
It is welcome that we have amendments on public health as well as on sustainable development. We can all think of specific developments in our communities, towns and cities that have an impact on health. It seems bizarre that health issues are not regarded as central when decisions are made on whether such developments should go ahead.
That is not to say that a development with a health impact should never go ahead. This is not about being anti-development; it is about acknowledging that there will be health impacts and that they must be taken into account. Whether we are talking about a specific development such as a road or a runway where there are concrete health concerns, or more generally about a loss of open space with a wider impact on the environment, we have to acknowledge the impact on people's health. Therefore, it is good to see the amendments in the group.
Donald Gorrie was quite right to suggest that in Scotland we are still putting up the built equivalent of gas-guzzling four-by-fours. We should not allow that; we should make it clear that buildings will get planning permission only after every possible step has been taken to reduce their energy consumption, whether through efficiency measures or through the use of microgeneration.
My amendment 155 is another attempt to introduce a sustainable development hook to development management. I tried to do that at stage 2 with a slightly stronger version. I hope that the Executive parties and other parties across the spectrum—all of which seem to have stronger rhetoric on sustainable development week after week—will be able to support my amendment.
We must finish our discussion on this group of amendments by 9.46, so I will not be able to allow contributions from everyone who wants to speak. We will have the briefest of contributions from Fiona Hyslop and Sarah Boyack.
The minister will know that I have concerns about building on brownfield sites and particularly about demolition processes. I support amendment 84; public health must be a consideration. Demolition is not a prescribed process. Councils have concerns about that, and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency has concerns about particular substances.
The minister addressed some of those points when we discussed an amendment that I lodged at stage 2. However, I have since written to her to ask why the concerns that she acknowledged are not dealt with adequately by the bill. Amendment 84 would allow us broad scope to consider public health when we consider planning. If we are building on brownfield sites and, during demolition, it is found that asbestos has been used—as has happened in my constituency—people must be protected. I urge the minister to give amendment 84 due consideration.
I sympathise with what Donald Gorrie is trying to do, but I am not convinced that amendment 80 is drafted in a way that will achieve his objectives.
If ministers are going to encourage us not to accept amendment 80, will they tell us what they are doing about planning guidance, building standards and the review of permitted development? What action will they take to encourage local authorities to improve their enforcement of energy efficiency measures? That is a big issue. As I say, I am not convinced that the wording of Donald Gorrie's amendment 80 will deliver opportunities for energy efficiency and microgeneration, but those are clearly issues that ministers are thinking about. I would like to know how fast they are moving.
Will energy efficiency standards be raised and will microgeneration be made standard? I know that such changes have been suggested in the draft consultation on Scottish planning policy 6. Will the minister tell us where he is going with that? Will the guidance be boosted for its final version?
No one would dispute the importance of health or public health. As we said at stage 2 in relation to amendments such as these, existing legislation already ensures that all material considerations are taken into account when planning applications are determined. Those considerations would include health issues, where relevant.
It would not be appropriate to single out specific issues in legislation, particularly when they are often addressed by control regimes outwith planning. The Executive already includes, in its planning policy statements and advice, guidance on how the planning system should deal with health concerns in relation to certain developments.
I understand that there may be an impression among some MSPs and members of the public that planning legislation prevents planning authorities from treating health as a material planning consideration. I want to make it absolutely clear that that is not the case. Health considerations are often likely to be controlled by legislation other than planning legislation. There may be specific controls on pollution, for example, or more general duties in relation to environmental health, such as statutory nuisances or health and safety legislation. Matters that are addressed by other statutory controls can still be material considerations in planning applications. Therefore, I recommend that amendment 79 be rejected.
Amendment 80 would enshrine in legislation the promotion of energy efficiency and microgeneration in new buildings as a material consideration. Donald Gorrie lodged a similar amendment without success at stage 2. That was not because the issues are unimportant—they are vital—but because there are better ways of promoting energy efficiency and microgeneration. In any case, existing legislation already ensures that all material considerations are taken into account when determining planning applications.
Will the minister take an intervention?
I do not think that I have time.
I am afraid that you do not.
The Executive is strongly committed to the promotion of sustainable development and we are taking forward work in a range of areas. Sarah Boyack invited me to talk in detail about those areas; I do not have time to do so, but I must mention some of them briefly.
Scottish planning policy 6 on planning and renewable energy has a key recommendation on renewables energy equipment and reducing carbon dioxide emissions by a fixed percentage. We are keen that that recommendation be as strong as possible.
Starting in April, there will also be new building standards—another issue to which Sarah Boyack referred. Those standards will have a significant effect on CO2 emissions from new buildings. Permitted development rights are being consulted on. I have made it clear that I am positive about that and we want to act on it in relation to renewable energy as quickly as possible. There will be a wider raft of energy and environmental efficiency measures to ensure that the principles behind amendment 80 are more appropriately integrated into the relevant processes. Therefore, I recommend that amendment 80 be rejected as well.
Amendment 84 would require planning authorities to consider attaching appropriate conditions in relation to health. That raises some of the issues that I have mentioned about specifying in planning legislation the handling of certain topics. In many circumstances, those topics are dealt with under other legislation. As I have said, the Executive already includes, in its planning policy statements and advice, guidance on how the planning system should deal with health concerns in relation to certain developments. Therefore, I recommend that amendment 84 be rejected.
I turn finally to amendment 155. We are strongly committed to the promotion of sustainable development, which is why we introduced it in relation to development plans and the national planning framework. However, I do not think that amendment 155 is the best way to encourage a more sustainable approach. It would carry a risk of great uncertainty and delay and would greatly increase the scope for legal challenge. We have always said that development plans, in which all relevant issues are considered in the round, are the best place to consider sustainable development, and applications are determined in accordance with them. Moreover, when applications for developments are not in development plans, they will be subject to much greater scrutiny as a result of our reforms.
In summary, we support all the objectives outlined in the group, but we do not think that the amendments are the way to deliver them.
The argument that health should not be mentioned in planning because it is dealt with in various other regimes is pathetic. Health can be included along with planning. At the moment there is uncertainty; we should remove that by including health quite clearly in the bill. I know that all ministers are told by officials never to accept that anything should be on the face of the bill, but they are wrong.
The various amendments try to deal with sustainable development. At the moment, the system is not working. We are building pathetically bad houses, and some councils are against taking energy conservation measures, although some are going further than the Executive is prepared to go. We need to accept that the system is not working and try to improve it. To stand up and say, "We disapprove of all these amendments and will go with the present system, which is not working," is not a tenable position. I will press my amendments.
The question is, that amendment 79 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 36, Against 76, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 79 disagreed to.
Amendment 80 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 80 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 77, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 80 disagreed to.
Section 14—Additional grounds for declining to determine application for planning permission
Amendments 29 to 31 moved—[Johann Lamont]—and agreed to.
Amendment 83 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 83 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 75, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 83 disagreed to.
After section 14
Amendment 84 moved—[Christine Grahame].
The question is, that amendment 84 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 77, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 84 disagreed to.
Section 15—Manner in which applications for planning permission are dealt with etc
Group 18 is on community right of notification and third-party rights of appeal. Amendment 123, in the name of Jackie Baillie, is grouped with amendments 124, 127, 128, 85, 129 to 135, 157 and 158. I draw members' attention to the pre-emption information that is shown on the groupings.
Unusually, I will start by telling the chamber what amendment 123 is not. I do so because there is an enormous amount of mince—[Laughter.] I am sorry; I did not mean to say "mince". There is an enormous amount of misinformation in the ether. This is not the third-party right of appeal by the back door. If members do not believe me, they should consider the comments of RSPB Scotland on our amendment:
"This process would not introduce a third party right of appeal regime. While this is not our preferred solution to the problems inherent in the planning system it offers a constructive way forward with minimal inconvenience to the development industry."
To label community right of notification as a form of TPRA is to deliberately misunderstand our proposals. Community right of notification is not anti-development and it is not anti-business. I come from an economic development background and I do not want to stifle development. It is about transparency, fairness, and involving communities in a strategic way where their input will be valuable and appropriate. It is about ensuring that we have the best possible planning system. We have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to ensure that the planning system is fit for purpose for developers and communities.
Amendment 123 is a joint effort from me, Sarah Boyack and Pauline McNeill. It has been developed during the past year and it reflects soundings that were taken from a variety of people such as planners, senior lawyers, members of the Faculty of Advocates and communities themselves. We applaud the Executive's intention to give communities the opportunity to participate at the very start of the planning process. That is entirely sensible, but we also want to give communities a say before consent is given.
A community right of notification mirrors the requirement that is placed on local authorities to notify ministers of planning applications that merit call-in. That is not new, nor is it rocket science. We are working with the grain of what already exists in legislation. The criteria for notification by a local authority are already set out in regulations under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997. The Executive indicated its intention to expand the criteria to include all local authority interest cases, major and local developments that are significantly contrary to the development plan, and developments that require an environmental impact assessment. That is all welcome.
Our proposal would have minimal additional cost, as local authorities are already required to notify Scottish ministers. The Executive anticipates that more notifications will come from local authorities as a result of the expanded criteria, rising from 350—the current figure—to 800. So, again, we are working with the grain of Executive legislation.
The procedure would be relatively simple. First, a body would have to be registered as a community body. Our amendment clearly sets out that criterion for registration and gives ministers enabling powers to make regulations in that regard. In order to trigger a community right of notification, a community body would be expected to have objected to the planning application in the first place and, within seven days, the local authority would have to notify the community body of its intention to grant permission. Within 14 days, the community body would have to get back to the local authority with its views on whether the application should be called in.
One organisation has suggested that we would be adding at least seven weeks to the process, and that—horror of horrors—the minister would have a period of 28 days in which to consider the matter, which could be extended. The last time that I counted, seven and 14 made 21—that is three weeks, not seven weeks—and the minister currently has 28 days in which he can consider matters, which period he can extend under existing legislation. We are not, therefore, proposing anything different. Let us keep things in proportion.
I want to make two points in closing.
Very briefly.
Our proposed approach is proportionate. It would not create a third-party right of appeal or cause unnecessary delays, but it would deliver certainty for communities, for local authorities and—above all—for developers.
I move amendment 123.
I am sorry to hurry members along, but I must get everybody in. Speeches from now on will be three minutes at maximum.
Amendments 124 and 127 seek to place in the bill the concessions that were helpfully made by the minister at stage 2. Those were that certain local authority interest cases and significant departures from the development plan would, henceforth, have to be notified to Scottish ministers. At stage 2, the minister said that
"planning authorities will be required to notify other applications, including certain local authority interest cases"
and that,
"as soon as possible after the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill is passed … a new notification direction … will require all significant departures from development plans to be notified, irrespective of the scale of local objection."—[Official Report, Communities Committee, 13 September 2006; c 3928-9.]
It is important that those two requirements are placed in the bill to increase public confidence, because those two areas of public concern generate most of the calls for a third-party right of appeal. The automatic notification procedure is quicker than the appeals process and thus meets one of the bill's key objectives of speeding up decision making. My amendments are designed to cover those two areas but still to allow ministers to set out in regulations the parameters of both requirements. For example, it should not be necessary to require local authorities to notify all interest cases, such as the siting of a mobile classroom.
I recognise the effort that Jackie Baillie and her colleagues have put into the construction of amendment 123. It has the attraction of community involvement. Perhaps the additional power and responsibility might even stimulate a welcome growth in the number of community councils, as there are still places where there are none. However, I consider the amendment to be, ultimately, flawed. Say, for example, that an elected community council accepts a planning application but a recognised community body does not. Are we to prefer the view of an unelected body to that of an elected body from the same community? In any event, as notification will be automatic in particular areas of concern such as local authority interest cases and departures from the development plan, as well as being more swift than the process that is set out in amendment 123, are there enough grounds for concern to add that new process to the bill?
The weight of evidence that the Communities Committee received was against the creation of even a limited third-party right of appeal, and the democratic process should take account of that. With the enhanced notification procedure that I have described and the ethos of participation and involvement of communities in development plans, I do not believe that we need new appeal rights that could suggest that we envisage the failure of the provisions in the bill even before it is passed.
I lodged amendment 126 on behalf of Friends of the Earth Scotland. The amendment, which is supported by RSPB Scotland and Scottish Environment LINK, aims to redress the balance in the bill. I do not agree with the minister that the weight of evidence does not support the creation of a third-party right of appeal. On the contrary, communities are very much in favour of TPRA, and I feel that they have been badly let down.
Amendment 126 would remove developers' existing rights of appeal so that there would be parity with communities. Why should our communities not have parity? The existing system is untenable, as it gives additional rights to a group that needs them least. Given the new opportunities that the bill creates for developers to participate in the preparation of development plans and to consult communities, their right of appeal is no longer necessary.
If amendment 126 was agreed to, developers would have to take community consultation and development plan preparation seriously, because they could no longer use the appeals system as a fall-back to gain planning permission. A level playing field between developers and communities would be created once and for all. Developers would no longer get a second bite at the cherry or have the means to place pressure on councils.
The measure that amendment 126 proposes would be easier to introduce and less costly than a third-party right of appeal. Scottish taxpayers currently meet the bulk of the cost of appeals, paying for both inquiry reports and council staff's time. That money would be better spent on delivering the new community consultation measures in the bill than on giving developers a second chance to subvert the decisions of democratically elected local councils.
Too often, developers have used and abused their right of appeal to wear down the resolve of communities while also creating uncertainty. That, in part, has led to calls for TPRA. By so vigorously opposing TPRA, developers have highlighted why their own position is untenable and unfair, and they should now face the consequences. Developers will no longer be able to intimidate councils into granting planning permission by using the threat of a costly and time-consuming inquiry.
Communities may believe the minister when he says that they did not substantially indicate that they wanted TPRA. However, I do not agree with him. Amendment 126 would not give communities TPRA—which would be my favoured option—but it would redress the balance, and I ask members to support it.
Amendment 85 makes it clear that there should be a limited third-party right of appeal. I am not saying that the bill is so flawed that we need additional protection. Nevertheless, however good any system is, things will go through it in the wrong way and will need attention, so there must be a last line of defence. I suggest that there should be a limited third-party right of appeal with three conditions attached to it.
First, the appeal must be triggered by a genuine community body such as the community council or an equivalent body. It could not be just a few nimbies who had submitted written objections to a planning application; there would have to be genuine community strength in the view that the application should be defeated and that there should be an appeal.
Secondly, the grounds of the appeal would be limited to two, the first of which would be the council being a major player in the development and standing to benefit from it. It would be wrong for councils to be judges in their own case without there being any appeals process. That would fly in the face of natural justice and open government, and it would shake people's confidence in the people who are in government.
The second ground of appeal would be that a major application was contrary to the development plan. A lot of the bill says how important the development plan will be. That is fine. However, surely, if the plan is so important, the bill should say that anyone who submitted an application against the plan would have to overcome an additional hurdle in the possibility of an appeal by the local community.
The right of appeal that I propose is very restricted. The claim by Executive spokespeople that the majority of those who were consulted were against the creation of a third-party right of appeal is contrary to the information that I have been given. The figure of 80 per cent of respondents being in favour of a third-party right of appeal has been quoted, although I have not personally read all the responses and counted them up. The public are strongly in favour of a third-party right of appeal. Many organisations have been arguing for it for years, and it is important to the public's belief in the democratic legitimacy of the planning process that there is a limited right of appeal. I hope that other members will see it in that way.
I understand why some people would respond to the Executive's unwillingness to consider TPRA by seeking to remove the developer's right of appeal, but I do not support that approach. Mistakes will always be made, and that is why there should be an appeals system, because people will feel the need, quite legitimately, to complain about those mistakes and to appeal against wrong decisions that have been made. Removing the developer's appeal also seems to accord with the implication that all developers are bad people who want to abuse their power. Some do, but not all do, and punishing all developers by removing the developers' appeal is the wrong solution to the problem.
Jackie Baillie began by saying that community notification is not TPRA, which is quite true. That is why I do not think that community notification is of much value. I do not think that community notification would remove the injustice and unfairness that exist if there are appeals on one side but not on the other.
We have debated several different solutions, and I have lodged an amendment that proposes another variant of TPRA. Amendment 129 goes along with the Executive's argument that TPRA would remove unfairness but that it is impractical and would cause problems in the system. Amendment 129 says that TPRA would kick in if, and only if, development plans are out of date. If the Executive gets its way with the bill and if we get development plans that are kept up to date, as the Executive expects to happen, it will get its way on TPRA. However, if that does not work, and if development plans are not kept up to date, that is a promise not kept—a promise broken. In those circumstances, there is a case for addressing the unfairness by introducing third-party appeals.
I am sympathetic to any and all variants that we can come up with to provide a solution. I will even support amendment 123, in the name of Jackie Baillie, because it is better than nothing, if only a little better than nothing. However, I hope that, if amendment 123 falls, members on the Labour back benches and Liberal Democrat members, whose own party policy is in favour of TPRA, will accept that the injustice in the system should not be allowed to continue and will support amendment 129.
I rise to speak to amendment 130 and to move amendment 130. In fact, I shall move all my amendments.
You do not move your amendments at this stage. You simply speak to them.
I shall speak to amendments 130, 131 and 132. I specifically lodged three separate amendments to enable each to be taken on its own merits, and I remind members that only persons and communities that had originally made representations against consent for planning permission would be able to make an appeal.
Amendment 130 is on the environmental impact assessment—a simple condition in planning but one that, if ignored, can have devastating effects on a community. Amendment 131 is on land that the authority owns or has interest in. That is perceived by communities to be one of the most contentious issues, because they can see a complete conflict of interests with local authorities. Although local authorities may engage with communities, they have the right to go against their wishes, which can be a contentious issue with communities and the public at large. Amendment 132 is on strategic and local development plans, which are another highly contentious issue; I am sure that members' postbags must be full of issues raised by the communities that they represent throughout Scotland. Communities are asked to take part, sometimes for many years, in local development plans, only to discover at the end of the consultation process—we have seen this with hospital consultations, too—that a development is pushed upon them against their wishes. That cannot be right.
I remind members that my amendments are for a limited third-party right of appeal. I remind the Executive that 86 per cent of the respondents to its consultation supported some form of third-party right of appeal. I welcome early consultation—I am sure that communities, too, will welcome it—and the scrutiny of planning permission, which is included in the bill, but communities still will not have the right of appeal if a bad decision is made.
I will pick up on some of the issues that have been raised. It cannot be fair that communities do not have the right of appeal. Authorities can consult to death if they wish to do so, but there must be an end point, and communities do not have that end point. The third-party right of appeal is not anti-development, nor is it against economic growth. The third-party right of appeal would enhance the planning process and ensure that communities were brought in, not just at the beginning of the process but at the very end. I ask members to consider all three of my amendments seriously, on their individual merits, when I move them. I urge members to support some form of appeal in order to give communities the support that they deserve and to ensure that they are heard and listened to. That is only fair and just.
Eighty-six per cent of respondents to the Executive's consultation supported the principle of a third-party right of appeal. I was one of that 86 per cent. The Executive, on the other hand, is apparently taking the side of big business developers, instead of siding with the overwhelming majority of the people. I find that rather strange, particularly when the Labour party frequently declares that it supports the interests of the many, rather than the interests of the privileged few.
I support the amendments that have been lodged by Donald Gorrie, Patrick Harvie and Sandra White, but it seems highly unlikely that the Executive will support any of those amendments, so amendment 133 is a compromise. It would leave open the possibility of a third-party right of appeal being introduced through secondary legislation at a later stage.
I do not believe in a third-party right of appeal for every Tom, Dick and Harry, and I do not believe that we should pander to nimbyism, but in certain circumstances a third-party right of appeal can be justified. For example, if a community council is against a proposed development in the area that it covers, it should have a right of appeal to the Executive. Jackie Baillie's amendment 123 proposes something similar, although, as I understand from her remarks, it falls short of a third-party right of appeal. I hope that amendment 123 is agreed to, but if it is not I ask the Parliament to support my amendment 133.
Let us see how the legislation works out in practice. Let us see whether the consultation procedures that are proposed in the bill are adequate. If they are not, instead of having to wait, possibly for years, for new primary legislation to be introduced, a third-party right of appeal could be speedily introduced by secondary legislation, and the exact circumstances in which that third-party right of appeal could be exercised would be defined in that secondary legislation. I therefore ask the Parliament to support amendment 133.
A lot of members want to speak, so I shall limit speeches to two minutes.
It is a great pity that the Scottish Executive will not accept the proposals that Jackie Baillie, Pauline McNeill and I have made to extend the community right of notification. It is in line with the partnership agreement, which commits us to improving planning rights for communities.
I welcome the emphasis on up-front consultation. It is what I was trained to do as a town planner 20 years ago, so members must excuse me if I do not see it as an innovation. I see the benefits of developers consulting communities early. It leads to better proposals that are more in tune with what communities need and what is in the local development plans. It also provides the opportunity for better proposals and leads, at the end of the day, to more happy communities. However, it is not the full story because not everyone engages enthusiastically in that process.
We need better checks and balances in the system. In drafting amendment 123, we used and extended the Executive's notification procedures. It is not TPRA; Patrick Harvie was right to emphasise that. We are looking at communities, not individuals. Our proposal is not about automatically adding a year to every application if just one person is not happy. It is about the right for the communities concerned to be listened to before final consent is issued and before the developers' contracts and legal commitments kick in. I do not see what developers have to fear from our proposal, the process for which would involve a marginal amount of extra time for a much better outcome.
Euan Robson made a specific point about development plans. If the Executive wants us to move to a culture in which there are not just more development plans but leaner, less specific and less comprehensive development plans, I predict that more questions will arise in the future about what such plans mean in practice. More communities will be unhappy with local authorities' interpretations, and the Executive's notification procedure will leave that final judgment with the local authority and exclude communities.
Historic Scotland will still have the right to call for a review by the Scottish Executive, but communities will not. We will all still get hundreds of letters from people who are unhappy. The process that is proposed by the bill is neither transparent nor effective. Jackie Baillie's proposal would be a better way in which to deliver community planning rights, so I hope that members will support amendment 123.
We all know that many communities feel disfranchised by the planning system. The SNP fully supports robust up-front consultation and more involvement with communities, but that does not completely displace the need for a third-party right of appeal as a last resort. Indeed, such a right would act as a good deterrent for mischievous planning authorities or developers who breach the intended robustness of up-front consultation at the start of the process.
I commend Sandra White for her tenacity in following the issue through. I look forward to the Liberal Democrats supporting her amendments, because a third-party right of appeal is their party policy.
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I have only two minutes.
I commend Jackie Baillie. As she knows, I mischievously moved a similar amendment that she had lodged at stage 2. As Patrick Harvie said, Jackie Baillie's amendment 123 is better than nothing, but only just. She said that her proposal might not be the preferred option of those who want TPRA, but I hope that enough members will vote to allow amendment 123 to go through.
I am sympathetic towards Rosemary Byrne's amendment 128, but Patrick Harvie said it all when he said that developers are not all bad. Rosemary Byrne's solution, as I understand it, is too draconian.
We will support Euan Robson's amendments 127 and 124, Patrick Harvie's amendment 129 and Dennis Canavan's amendment 133, which are all well intentioned. The number of amendments indicates the level and strength of support in the Parliament for some form of third-party right of appeal.
Overall, the bill is a good one. It promises to address issues in the planning system that frustrate businesses, commerce and communities, which all have frustrations with the system. However, the bill does not fully address the issues of fair balance of representation between applicants and those who are affected by development—the people in local communities.
The community right of notification is both fair and simple and will help to provide balance. Nothing in the bill allows any objectors or community groups to challenge any decision. However, developers and applicants have the right of appeal and the right of judicial review, because they are the ones who usually have the resources to do it. Communities that want to use judicial review do not tend to have sufficient resources, even though they might have good grounds to do so.
The community right of notification is a modest proposal. I point out to Euan Robson that it is a trigger to notify ministers to let them consider whether the decision needs to be examined again. I do not know that it really matters who triggers the process, but the right would exist. It would be the only part of the planning system in which community bodies would have a trigger to enable Scottish ministers to examine the issues. That would restore the balance of fairness.
In some cases, there are arguments over the development plan and how it is interpreted. The plan is the basis of the system. Planning authorities will tend to interpret the development plan in their own favour, and they will be judge and jury. The problem is that communities see local authorities as having an interest in building development. The question whether two-storey or four-storey buildings are built matters to communities, and of course the applicant has a vested interest in the buildings being higher. Communities also have an interest if 100 extra cars are being brought into their community. Therefore, it is vital that we provide a mechanism for communities to trigger the process.
Even if the Executive had conceded that community objectors would be advised of outcomes when it is already looking at applications, that would have been symbolic of the place that was given to MSPs and objectors in the system. That concession would have been helpful. I urge members to support amendment 123.
The various amendments that have been lodged are legacies of the current adversarial planning system. As a local councillor, I have railed against the lack of democracy in the current system when an appeal lands in the hands of a Scottish Executive reporter.
Euan Robson pointed to the difficulties with Jackie Baillie's amendment 123, but he did not comment on the potential burgeoning of nimby community bodies. I reckon that three or four applications on the agenda for a recent Fife Council planning meeting could fall into the scope of amendment 123. That is one meeting in one planning area. An issue that has not been mentioned so far, although I hope that it comes up in this afternoon's debate, is the general lack of qualified planners throughout the country. I do not know how many such applications would emerge if the new requirement of prior consultation were to operate well. Perhaps they will end altogether.
We are putting a lot of faith in the new system of prior consultation. As such, I have a degree of sympathy with Dennis Canavan's amendment 133, which would mean that if the new system does not work properly we would at least have a mechanism by which we could come back and re-examine it.
I appreciate Jackie Baillie's long-standing interest in the issue. However, in my opinion, amendment 123 fails to recognise the significant cultural and procedural changes that the bill will make to the planning process, in particular through the requirement to put community engagement at the heart of the process.
Amendment 123 would destroy the balance that the bill creates between community involvement in the development plan process and a swifter and more transparent decision-making process. Given that we are restricting the scope of appeals, it would seem rather strange to introduce a further layer of bureaucracy that would delay the process and give communities no meaningful engagement.
Amendment 85, in the name of Mr Gorrie, represents the reintroduction of yet another amendment that was defeated overwhelmingly in the committee at stage 2. The argument that held sway then, which was that the amendment would not ensure that we had a definition of a truly representative body, still stands.
The amendments in the name of Sandra White and amendment 129, in the name of Patrick Harvie, attempt to introduce a limited third-party right of appeal—as does amendment 133, in the name of Dennis Canavan, in a wider way.
I say to Patrick Harvie that in this Parliament we do not legislate for legislation to fail; we legislate to have legislation that will work. Introducing amendments on the basis that the legislation might not work seems ludicrous to me. The effect of all those amendments would be to increase confrontation, cause delay and uncertainty and require central decision making. That is not the type of planning system that I want and it is certainly not the type of planning system that my constituents deserve. In the past, people in the poorest communities have often faced the worst planning decisions.
Today is an opportunity for the Scottish National Party to come clean. What is its position on the third-party right of appeal? It is up to the SNP to decide whether it will side with Jim Mather and support Scotland's business community or whether it will consign Scotland to being an economic basket case.
The Conservatives are sympathetic to all TPRA issues. It is vital that the views of all organisations are acknowledged and listened to during the planning process—indeed, that is the aim of the new planning process. However, our concerns lie with the obvious conflict between TPRA and the aims and objectives of what is supposed to be a fast-track comprehensive planning system.
I have sympathy with amendment 123. I have discussed the matter with Jackie Baillie and I see where she is coming from, but I share Euan Robson's concerns. There is the risk of rogue community bodies upsetting the apple cart. I will support amendment 127, in the name of Euan Robson, and consequential amendment 124.
We must be clear that no amount of end-stage process will give this country the planning system that it needs and deserves. In the many years of debate leading up to the bill, a disproportionate amount of time and emphasis has been placed on end-stage appeal rights. It would be a travesty if, in the implementation and delivery of the change that flows from the bill, a disproportionate amount of time and energy were again spent on end-stage process.
A third-party right of appeal—or indeed a community right of notification—will address neither the anger and frustration felt by communities at the planning system nor the current system's shortcomings. However, it will inevitably delay decisions on vital social and economic developments, add to processes and lead to more end-stage disputes. I say to the members who have moved these amendments that their proposals raise enormous issues of interpretation, definition and practicality that it will take time to resolve.
Critically, these proposals will divert attention and energy from getting things right at the front end. We need to concentrate more on—and hear much more from the Executive about—how we can make a reality of the culture change that is needed at the beginning of the process to ensure that all local authorities, including those that might need to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table, will engage meaningfully with communities.
I also want to hear the Executive's proposals on building capacity and support for communities at a local level. Let me be clear: although many of us will vote against these amendments today, we are every bit as passionate about ensuring that in future community views and interests are reflected better in law and in practice.
I urge colleagues to reject the amendments and to work towards a planning system that works from the beginning and does not add delay and disputes at the end.
I acknowledge the level of interest in this area of the bill, although I am perhaps disappointed that so much of people's time and energy has been spent on it.
The bill's key aims are to modernise the planning system to make it open and transparent; and to allow communities to have, from the outset, a say in shaping their areas, in the development planning process and in individual applications. However, I share other members' fears that if we indicate to our communities that there is a mechanism that they can use at the end of the process, they will simply not engage at that very early stage.
I understand that members feel passionately about their amendments and I admit that they might have had a point if the planning system were to remain as it is. However, that is not the case. The system will be much improved and will allow communities to take part in and engage with the whole process.
Throughout the bill's passage, we have said that its proposals require a culture change on the part of professionals and community groups, including some of the umbrella groups that have been pushing for these amendments. I hope that we will give the bill our full backing and ask colleagues to reject all the amendments in this group.
Proposed subsection (13) that amendment 123 seeks to insert into section 43 of the 1997 act defines the community bodies that would be able to trigger the notification and appeal mechanism that has been suggested by some of my colleagues. It says that such bodies would have to be "formally constituted"; would have to
"consist solely of members who … reside … and are entitled to vote"
in a particular postcode area; and would have to
"have at least 12 members".
As any national pressure group could constitute itself in ways that could fit those criteria by organising its membership on a postcode basis, this proposal could act as a device for serial objections and obstruction by such pressure groups, regardless of the interests of local communities. Dennis Canavan mentioned the problem of nimbyism and I fear that this device could be used by others with an obstructive agenda.
Amendment 123 would, in effect, create a licence for obstructing necessary and desirable developments. There should be no place for such obstructionism in the new, open and democratic planning framework that the Executive has proposed and which the Communities Committee has overwhelmingly supported.
However sympathetic we might feel to the principle of TPRA, all of us will be aware of the practical difficulties of introducing full third-party right of appeal and the strengths and flaws of the amendments in this group—including amendment 123, for which I have particular sympathy.
However, if the minister and the Executive cannot accept any of these amendments, what reassurance can she give to the many individuals and communities that we represent that this new planning system will give them equal—or, at least, fair—access to that system? Can she reassure communities and individuals that they can feel confident that their views will be heard throughout the planning and appeals process? Moreover, what reassurance can she give to ensure that these communities do not feel outgunned, outnumbered and outmanoeuvred by developers and others, as happens so often at the moment?
I say to Cathie Craigie, who regretted the amount of time that has been spent on discussing community issues such as TPRA, that this is a democracy and we have a right to talk about these matters.
The amendments in the name of Sandra White, which seek to introduce a very limited third-party right of appeal, are sensible. With the bill, the Executive is expecting communities to make a leap of faith, undergo a culture change and simply accept that the new system will somehow make everything all right. If the minister is right, the consultation with communities will work effectively.
However, Sandra White's proposal seeks to deal with situations in which, for example, a local development plan that has been agreed in the consultation process is simply overturned for a particular planning application. Surely, in such circumstances, a community has the right to appeal. After all, it has engaged in the consultation at the beginning of the process; if its views are then set aside by the planning authority, it has a perfect right to be heard.
Amendments 130, 131 and 132 seek to introduce a very limited third-party right of appeal and I ask members to support them.
I support amendment 123 not only as a previous member of Fife Council's planning committee and as a member of the Parliament's Public Petitions Committee but on the basis of the Executive's own analysis of rights of appeal in planning, which said that, even with the exclusion of responses from campaigners—postcards and so on—59 per cent of respondents supported TPRA.
However, with amendment 123, Jackie Baillie seeks the introduction of a community right of notification, which is a fundamentally different matter. The proposal is particularly good for communities in Scotland, because we need to realise that this is an issue of trust. The Parliament should build up and maintain that trust. If we do not support the amendment, we will be in real difficulties.
This debate is serious and important and anyone who is under the illusion that this idea has simply popped up at the last minute—as I think I heard someone say on the radio this morning—has not engaged in the kind of discussions and conversations that I have had, particularly on the issues that Jackie Baillie, Sarah Boyack and Pauline McNeill have raised. Everyone in the debate has acknowledged the huge challenges that we face and the major concerns that have been raised.
It has been argued that the system does not strike the right balance between the applicant and the community that is affected by the application and that, therefore, some mechanism should be available at the end of the process. However, I contend that the bill, which has been shaped by the Communities Committee, brings together a strong package that strikes the balance that we are all seeking between the rights of applicants, developers and those who want to create the infrastructure that we want in our communities, and the rights of those communities. Dennis Canavan says that, with the bill, we are standing with big business; I am standing with the Scottish Trades Union Congress on this matter and I am happy to do so.
We want all developers and planning authorities to recognise that their actions impact on local people. The bill is designed to help them to face up to that reality and to engage consistently across Scotland. That is why our proposals focus on securing meaningful community engagement at the front end of the process both in development planning and in early engagement in applications, with rigorous enforcement of any decisions that are taken. That view was reinforced at stage 2. We believe that planning authorities should focus their available resources on where they will make a difference. Indeed, as we said time and again yesterday, we recognise that our democratically elected local authorities must take responsibility for ensuring that their decisions are taken openly and accountably and in the interests of the areas that they represent.
All the amendments in this group should be considered in that light. We believe that the proposals in amendment 123, for a community right of notification, and in amendments 129 to 133, for a third-party right of appeal, would significantly disrupt that critical balance for no real benefit. Our view is that the introduction of additional procedures and complexity at the end of the process would not improve the quality of decision making but would add to the delay and uncertainty that we want to tackle. In addition, it would undermine the democratic role of local authorities and would fail to give communities social and environmental justice. As we have said before, it would reward strong communities and punish weak ones.
Amendment 123, in the name of my colleague Jackie Baillie, proposes the introduction of a community right of notification procedure, which some people support as a compromise to ease the debate on appeal rights. However, the proposal presents difficulties. First, it would introduce more formal procedures and more delay into the planning system. Under the system that we propose in the bill, the key controversial cases will be notified to ministers. For those cases, the community right of notification procedure would not be relevant and would not give community bodies any meaningful extra input into the system.
The proposed procedure would make a difference in cases in which a community disagreed with the local authority's judgment that an application need not be notified. In those circumstances, no one can tell me that we would not be opening up the opportunity for a huge range of applications to be notified on the ground that communities thought that notification was deserved. There would be no one to mediate or to make a judgment on such matters at local level. The procedure would come in when a local authority was not to be trusted on the notification responsibilities with which it had been charged and it would mean that the role of elected local authorities in taking reasoned judgments on behalf of their communities would be significantly undermined. All the evidence suggests that local authorities are almost overcautious and that they notify when they think that a proposed development qualifies for notification.
Secondly, the proposed procedure would reduce the incentive for communities, developers or local authorities to engage seriously in the early stage of the process. We know that some bodies are not keen on such engagement. Under amendment 123, a community body, without having to prove that it represented a significant body of opinion, could simply take the decision out of the local authority's hands and allow the minister to judge whether the decision should be made at the centre. Our aim is to reduce the procedural complexity and delay that plague the current system, and to challenge people to engage at an early stage. Amendment 123 does not achieve either of those aims, nor does it assist the process of modernisation of the system, so I urge Jackie Baillie to seek to withdraw it.
Amendments 130, 131 and 132, in the name of Sandra White, together with amendment 129, in the name of Patrick Harvie, seek to introduce into the planning system a form of third-party right of appeal. Amendment 133, in the name of Dennis Canavan, seeks to introduce a slightly more open form of third-party right of appeal. Those amendments are unnecessary and unwelcome.
Dennis Canavan almost hit the nail on the head when he said that we do not want to provide a charter that would allow every nimby in the country to get support, but the problem is how we define what a nimby is. From where I am sitting, it sometimes seems that people's attitude is, "I am not a nimby, but everyone who disagrees with me is." We must confront that challenge when we address the planning process.
It is understandable that at both stage 1 and stage 2 the Communities Committee rejected the arguments in favour of third-party right of appeal. The Executive has carefully considered the arguments for and against its introduction. Although we recognise the depth of feeling that exists, we do not think that TPRA is the way forward.
I am baffled by the sudden appearance of amendments from Rosemary Byrne at such a late stage. She has popped up at the last minute to discuss an issue that the rest of us have engaged with fully. She wants to leave appeal rights exactly as they are, which is absurd. No one agrees that that is desirable. We have always said that a crucial part of restoring trust in the planning system is to ensure that, as far as possible, appeals are limited to reviews of the original decision so that applicants cannot introduce material that should have been available to the planning authority and the local community. We want to prevent people from abusing the first-party right of appeal but, for some bizarre reason, Rosemary Byrne wants to stop us.
On amendment 85, people can already make their case to us about why they think that an application should be called in by ministers. We have already taken into account the issues that amendment 85 seeks to address. It would simply duplicate and complicate existing provisions.
With the leave of the Presiding Officer, I want to make an important point about amendments 124 and 127, in the name of Euan Robson. We understand that some members want to enhance some of the ministerial notification requirements by including them in the bill. That is the intention behind amendments 124 and 127. However, they would oblige ministers to call in all planning applications that involved development proposals that were contrary to the development plan or in which the planning authority had some interest. I know that that is not the intention of Euan Robson and other members who have an interest in the issue. Decision making would be centralised not just for a small number of contentious development plans but for a host of minor and inoffensive proposals. That would cut across everything that members said yesterday about the role of local authorities and local democracy. Many more applications would be called in by ministers.
However, we acknowledge Euan Robson's concerns and understand why some people are worried about the way in which some planning applications are handled. We have already made clear our commitment to enhancing the scrutiny of local authority interest developments and departures from development plans. Planning authorities must carry out a range of developments in the exercise of their duties. In addition, they own significant amounts of land, which might sometimes be needed for new development. It is essential that councils respect the formal process and the inherent fairness of the planning system and that they treat any proposal in which they have an interest openly and in the same way that they would treat any other proposal.
On 13 September, I said to the Communities Committee:
"planning authorities will be required to notify other applications, including certain local authority interest cases".—[Official Report, Communities Committee, 13 September 2006; c 3928.]
I confirm that planning authorities' requirement to notify will go beyond the existing categories of notifiable applications. As I said at the time, that requirement will be backed up by the full force of the law.
Development plans are central to shaping future development in all our areas, so it is reasonable and, indeed, essential to expect that planning decisions will be taken in accordance with those plans. However, sometimes departures from them are necessary and it is vital that they are scrutinised carefully.
Our policy and proposals are clear. When a local authority intends to permit an application in which it has an interest, but that application either constitutes a significant departure from the development plan or faces a substantial body of objections, the authority must first notify Scottish ministers, who will consider whether to call it in. I believe that what we are suggesting will meet the demands of Euan Robson and will avoid the dangers that the amendments unintentionally present. We are committed to scrutiny in those circumstances, which is far more proportionate than the suggestion that ministers should call in every application that met the proposed criteria. I urge Euan Robson not to move amendments 124 and 127.
In summary, it is fundamental to the success of the planning modernisation package that we retain the focus on ensuring that local authorities, local communities and applicants work together from the outset to achieve sustainable outcomes. We do not want to let anyone off the hook in the early stages of the process. The challenge of meeting the participation standards is written into the process. Developers will not get away with ticking a box.
I urge members to recognise that the balance of the package of measures that the bill offers, which has been shaped by the committee, will give comfort and support to local communities in shaping their environments and to local authorities in exercising their crucial role. It will also provide the opportunity for the planning system to deliver the economic development and transformation of our communities that we all wish to see.
I realised the significance of the point that the minister was making, but I suspect that we will need to make up time later on.
I said that I would give Jackie Baillie three minutes, so I will honour that.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to take less than that.
The debate has been both passionate and disappointing. Many of the points that have been made have been based on a perception of what amendment 123 seeks to do, rather than on what it is actually trying to do. I am genuinely disappointed that some colleagues have not taken the time to examine the detail of my proposal.
I want to deal with the different views that have been expressed, beginning with those of Euan Robson, Dave Petrie and John Home Robertson. I say to Euan Robson that of course there will be different views. That is the beauty of working in communities. There were different views when we had two-tier local authorities. Applications are already sent to ministers for a 360º view and we think that they can continue to cope with that.
I say to both Euan Robson and John Home Robertson that we seek to allow ministers to set the criteria under which community bodies will be registered with their local authority each year. We think that it is important to recognise local knowledge and to prevent the formation of the nimby groups to which Andrew Arbuckle referred—I am sure that he meant to suggest not that his community is made up of groups of nimbys, but that people have genuine and serious concerns about planning matters. We recognise that there may be difficulties, which is why we have sought to give ministers enabling powers to set out criteria for the community bodies that will be recognised.
I say to Karen Whitefield that there will be no restriction on the developer's right of appeal, except that the timescale will be reduced from six months to three months. We understand why the Executive has gone for that approach and we do not demur from it. In our proposal, we have gone with the grain of the Executive's approach, both as regards the criteria for notification and the process that would otherwise be followed.
I say to Susan Deacon that I acknowledge her passion and her commitment to her community. As a member of the committee that considered the petition from Musselburgh racecourse, I know just how difficult some of the issues are when there is a clear local authority interest. Such a proposal would fall to be considered under a community right of notification.
I will talk briefly about what happens now and illustrate that with the example of a local supermarket development on what is probably the prime amenity site in my town. As it is a local authority interest case, the decision to call it in should have been relatively quick, but it took 700 letters from some very articulate people for that to happen. For the Executive to have to respond to 700 letters is not a good use of its time. Also, it leaves less articulate communities without a voice.
Our procedure is simpler and transparent. It is not a question of trust, as Scottish ministers already overrule local authorities' decisions through the notification procedure. Our approach is fair and proportionate. It gives rights to communities, not only at the start of the process but throughout it. It will deliver certainty for communities, local authorities, and—above all—developers.
I infer from what you said, Ms Baillie, that you are pressing the amendment.
I am indeed.
The question is, that amendment 123 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 45, Against 74, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 123 disagreed to.
Section 16—Local developments: schemes of delegation
Group 19 is on procedure in relation to appeals or reviews. Amendment 13, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 32 and 33.
Amendment 13 is a technical drafting change to ensure consistency with other provisions in the bill. It clarifies the relationship between proposed new section 43A(11) and proposed new section 43B in the principal act and brings the wording into line with equivalent provisions relating to appeals in section 18 of the bill.
The thrust of our proposals for handling appeals and local reviews has always been that procedures should focus on a review of the original decision rather than on fresh, full consideration of the proposal. That means that, apart from exceptional circumstances, new matters should not be introduced, nor new information provided that was not put before the authority when the original determination took place.
Amendment 13 underlines the fact that proposed new section 43B applies to the regulations in which the form of and procedures for local reviews will be set out— that apart from the general entitlement to have regard to the development plan and to other material considerations, a party to a review should not raise a new issue unless it was impossible to do so beforehand or exceptional circumstances apply.
Amendment 32 will ensure that regulations covering the review of decisions that are taken under schemes of delegation provide planning authorities with a level of discretion as to how the review, or any stage of it, is carried out. That is consistent with our approach that local issues should be considered locally. It will enable planning authorities to determine the circumstances in which, for example, they may wish to take oral evidence or additional written evidence. Although the focus should be on the efficient review of a case, it is important that planning authorities have discretion within the framework of the regulations to apply the procedures that they consider fit the circumstances of each case. Amendment 32 will enable regulations to be made under which discretion can be conferred on planning authorities.
Finally, amendment 33 is a general provision to ensure that regulations that are to be made setting out the procedure for appeals under the legislation may confer discretion on ministers or on reporters over the manner in which appeals should be handled. That is of key importance in ensuring that our proposals for reforming the planning appeal system ensure that the procedures become less adversarial but no less robust. I ask the chamber to support the three amendments in the group.
I move amendment 13.
Amendment 13 agreed to.
Amendment 32 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
Section 17—Call in of applications by Scottish Ministers
Does Euan Robson wish to move amendment 124?
In light of the minister's view that there is a risk that amendment 124 is defective, I will not move it.
Amendment 124 moved—[Tricia Marwick].
The question is, that amendment 124 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 29, Against 78, Abstentions 7.
Amendment 124 disagreed to.
Does Pauline McNeill wish to move amendment 125?
No.
Amendment 125 moved—[Christine Grahame].
The question is, that amendment 125 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 77, Abstentions 2.
Amendment 125 disagreed to.
Does Euan Robson wish to move amendment 127?
No.
Amendment 127 moved—[Christine Grahame].
The question is, that amendment 127 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 29, Against 76, Abstentions 7.
Amendment 127 disagreed to.
Does Pauline McNeill wish to move amendment 126?
No.
Amendment 126 moved—[Christine Grahame].
The question is, that amendment 126 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 34, Against 78, Abstentions 2.
Amendment 126 disagreed to.
Section 18—Appeals etc
Amendment 128, in the name of Rosemary Byrne, has already been debated. I remind members that if amendment 128 is agreed to, amendments 85 and 129 to 134 will be pre-empted.
As amendment 128 would pre-empt amendments lodged by Patrick Harvie, Donald Gorrie, Sandra White—
No—you must say whether you are moving the amendment.
I will not move amendment 128, and I ask members to support those other amendments.
Amendment 128 not moved.
Amendment 85 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 85 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 14, Against 95, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 85 disagreed to.
Amendment 129 moved—[Patrick Harvie].
The question is, that amendment 129 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 77, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 129 disagreed to.
Amendment 130 moved—[Ms Sandra White].
Where is Jim Mather?
Order.
The question is, that amendment 130 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 33, Against 76, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 130 disagreed to.
Amendment 131 moved—[Ms Sandra White].
The question is, that amendment 131 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 36, Against 77, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 131 disagreed to.
Amendment 132 moved—[Ms Sandra White].
The question is, that amendment 132 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 37, Against 77, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 132 disagreed to.
Here he is. [Applause.]
It is safe to come back now, Mr Mather.
Order—Mr Henry, please.
Amendment 133 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 133 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 36, Against 75, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 133 disagreed to.
Amendments 134 and 135 not moved.
Amendment 33 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
Section 19—Duration of planning permission and listed building consent etc
Group 20 is on listed building consent. Amendment 87, in the name of the minister, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 87 will ensure that the reduction in the statutory time period that is attached to some applications for listed building consent, within which development must be begun, does not apply to consent that is granted before the date on which the change in the law is made. The amendment is similar to stage 2 amendment 147, which related to planning permission.
At present, planning authorities can specify the period within which work that is permitted under a listed building consent must be begun. If they do not specify a period, a statutory time limit of five years applies. Section 19 will replace the existing provision and reduce the statutory time period to three years, which will avoid some of the uncertainty about when extant listed building consents might be implemented. Without amendment 87, consents that are granted prior to the commencement of section 19 could suddenly have their time period for starting development reduced from five years to three, which would, for example, mean that consents that previously had another two years left to run lapsed rather abruptly. To avoid unfairness to developers who planned on the basis of the existing time limit and to avoid a glut of listed building consent applications for replacement consents or extensions to time periods, we consider it appropriate to amend the bill. I therefore ask members to support the amendment.
I move amendment 87.
Amendment 87 agreed to.
Section 23A—Fixed penalty notices
Group 21 is on fixed-penalty notices. Amendment 136, in the name of Patrick Harvie, is grouped with amendments 137 to 139, 154 and 161.
I will be mercifully brief. My amendments 136 to 139 and 154 are intended to give the minister an opportunity to say whether the spirit of the amendments is part of the Executive's intention on how fixed-penalty notices should be used.
The basic thrust is to ask whether developers who have repeatedly contravened the requirements that have been placed on them and have been given fixed-penalty notices will be able to consider those fines to be an on-going running cost or whether repeat offences will be cranked up each time that a developer ignores the requirements that are placed on them.
I move amendment 136.
I speak as convener of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, which initiated amendment 161. Section 23A of the bill introduces proposed new sections 136A and 145A into the principal act. I will not go into too much detail, but proposed new sections 136A and 145A enable the Scottish ministers to prescribe in regulations the amounts of fixed penalties. Those regulations will be subject to the negative procedure. The Subordinate Legislation Committee was content that there should be such powers, given that the level of penalty would be liable to shift, but it was greatly concerned that there was no restriction on the amounts of the fines. I could go into detail about precedents that have been set elsewhere, but as all the details are with the Executive, I need only say that the negative procedure should be changed to the affirmative procedure.
I support Patrick Harvie's amendments 137 and 139, which provide that the ministers
"must provide for a higher amount to be payable"
by repeat offenders. That is terribly important. I am told that, when penalties are imposed, they are often not paid. There should perhaps not be a three-strikes-and-you're-out system for developers who have a bad track record, but they should certainly face increased fines.
Section 23A is an important section because it addresses the concern in local communities that, if conditions are not enforced and there are no consequences, a vicious downward spiral is created and people have less and less faith in the system, no matter what conditions are applied. There has been consensus on the desire to address enforcement, which is why we established our position on fixed-penalty notices.
Provision for ministers to set higher fines for fixed-penalty notices is already provided for in proposed new sections 136A(11) and 145A(11). At stage 2, I made clear our intention that the level of fine would reflect previous contraventions of planning controls. Indeed, we propose to go further than Mr Harvie and consider not only previous fixed penalties, but other enforcement action, such as prosecution for breach of an enforcement notice. Members will recall from the stage 1 debate that we do not want businesses simply to write in fixed-penalty notices as an add-on cost and that such fines are not a replacement for prosecution, which will remain an option. Amendments 136 to 139 are therefore unnecessary, and I urge members to reject them.
Amendment 154 would, in effect, enable planning authorities to refuse planning permission on the ground that the developer had in the past been the subject of a fixed-penalty notice for a breach of a planning enforcement notice. We do not believe that such a measure would be appropriate, justifiable or even legally enforceable, and we are keen that the issue be addressed in guidance. It would not be appropriate to create a situation in which a person's entitlement to develop his or her property is determined not on the merits of the application but on other, unrelated matters. We acknowledge members' concerns about developers who conduct themselves inappropriately, but I urge members to reject amendment 154.
Amendment 161, which Sylvia Jackson has lodged on behalf of the Subordinate Legislation Committee's, would ensure that the regulations issued under proposed new sections 136A and 145A to set the levels for fixed-penalty notices would be subject to the affirmative procedure. It is our intention to introduce a scale of fixed penalties that reflects a developer's previous track record on complying with planning controls. I recognise that members have been concerned about the lack of detail on those matters in the bill, but it is more effective for such detail to be included in secondary legislation, to allow for amendment at a later date. However, we accept that there is much interest in the content of the regulations and, as a result, I would be happy to bring them forward through the affirmative procedure. Therefore, I recommend that members accept amendment 161.
I agree with the minister about the importance of section 23A. I am happy to have assurances on the record and I ask permission to withdraw amendment 136.
Amendment 136, by agreement, withdrawn.
Amendments 137 to 139 not moved.
After section 24
Amendments 141 and 140 not moved.
Section 26—Tree preservation orders
Group 22 is on tree preservation orders. Amendment 14, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 15 and 142 to 145.
The effect of amendments 14 and 15 will be that, in cases where the Scottish ministers grant planning permission—such as appeal cases or cases that have been called in—they will be required to ensure that adequate provision is made for the preservation or planting of trees by the imposition of conditions. Therefore, I recommend that amendments 14 and 15 be accepted.
Amendments 142 and 143 seek to alter and extend the circumstances that could trigger the making of a tree preservation order. As we said at stage 2, the bill introduces additional circumstances for making tree preservation orders, based on cultural and historical significance. That came out of consultation with a wide range of stakeholders in 2004 and 2005 and will allow, for example, for old trees, rare trees or trees that are connected with particular historical events to have special protection.
The first proposed paragraph in amendment 143 relates to the appearance of the locality, which is already covered by the principal act's existing powers on the interests of amenity. "The interests of amenity" is a long-standing term, but it is also a broad term, and we intend to provide further guidance on its interpretation in future. Although the first two subparagraphs of the second proposed paragraph in amendment 143 are covered by the new provisions in the bill on cultural and historical significance, the final subparagraph, which concerns biodiversity, is new. However, biodiversity is better protected by other policy mechanisms, such as sites of special scientific interest.
The bill's new provisions on cultural and historical significance offer new powers to protect a wider range of trees. The additional measures that Robin Harper seeks to introduce are not justified, therefore I recommend that amendment 143 be rejected.
Amendment 144 is a repeat of Robin Harper's stage 2 amendment 213, which sought to give the Scottish ministers powers to compile a register of trees of special interest and the ability to approve, with or without modifications, a register of such trees compiled by another person. Having given further thought to the proposal following the stage 2 debate, we are still of the opinion that the measures should be rejected. The bill introduces provisions that will allow tree preservation orders to be made in respect of trees, groups of trees and woodlands if it is expedient to do so in the interest of amenity and/or the trees, groups of trees or woodlands are of cultural and historical significance. Therefore, for the first time, tree preservation orders will be able to be made to preserve trees with cultural and historical merit that are not under threat. In addition, the bill introduces provisions that will make all tree preservation orders have immediate effect and allows for an emergency power for planning authorities to prohibit tree operations.
The provisions in the bill offer new opportunities to protect special trees, strengthen powers of protection and are pro-active on the protection of cultural and historical trees, therefore the case for a statutory register of trees of special interest is not justified. I recognise that having a non-statutory register may be attractive for the purposes of funding, managing or promoting trees, but that is not a matter for the bill, therefore I recommend that amendment 144 and amendment 145, which is consequential, be rejected.
I move amendment 14.
Amendments 142 and 143 would add rarity value and biodiversity to the criteria for making tree preservation orders. Under the bill as amended at stage 2, a TPO can be made only if it is
"in the interests of amenity"
or if
"the trees, groups of trees or woodlands are of cultural or historical significance."
Trees make a significant contribution to biodiversity in urban and rural settings. Old and ancient trees, standing or fallen, host a significant proportion of our most endangered wildlife, and they are rare organisms in their own right. The guidance contained in national planning policy guideline 14 would not protect such trees from development or felling by their owners. The use of designations such as site of special scientific interest, to which the minister referred, would incur significant bureaucracy and would be costly—a point that the Executive raised in objecting to having a register. The simplest procedure for ensuring the widespread protection of trees on the basis of rarity value or biodiversity value would be to extend the provisions of the TPO system to include biodiversity. I strongly urge the Parliament to vote for amendment 143 in the interests of biodiversity.
Amendments 144 and 145 contain a proposal to compile, maintain and update a register of trees of special interest. Listed buildings get status, so why should there not be listed trees? The trees on such a register would be exceptional. They would be notable for their great age, their important historical and cultural associations, their exceptional size or their outstanding form and character. They would be linked with local communities and would have a unique Scottish connection. They would probably number no more than a couple of hundred in Scotland. Heritage trees provide a living link with Scotland's history and culture. They are a unique, but vulnerable, part of our natural heritage.
We have lost quite a lot of trees to vandalism recently. The most important point is that the TPO system does not protect against vandalism, because it is reactive. If a tree is under threat from development, a TPO will protect it. If it is under threat from inappropriate maintenance, a TPO will protect it. However, TPOs are not proactive. They do not ensure that our ancient trees are properly cared for.
There has been cross-party support for the ideas contained in amendment 144, and there are at least five further reasons why I urge the Parliament to vote for it. To start with, it is permissive. It states:
"The Scottish Ministers may compile a register".
We took out "must" from our original draft, to which the Executive had objected. In response to Euan Robson's objection that our original draft did not allow for appeal, amendment 144 would allow for appeal. The proposal would not be costly. A register would afford trees greater protection and status. It would not duplicate the TPO system, as the Executive has argued. It would be complementary and would add to it.
Registers already operate in Europe, notably in Sweden and Poland. Sweden is spending £35 million a year on an action plan for trees with high conservation value. Poland, which has a low gross domestic product, has invested in a national list of protected trees.
I ask members to consider our proposals and to vote for them.
I support Robin Harper's amendments 142 to 145, as I supported the equivalent amendments at stage 2. I should record that I received a special tree when we were being lobbied in the Parliament some months ago. I am happy to report that, despite my tender mercies, it is still alive.
Robin Harper makes an eloquent case. Most of us who live in urban areas particularly appreciate the trees that surround us. It is important that they are protected. In addition, we need a register of the many special trees in Scotland. The register could bring visitors to areas if they know where the trees are and can find out about their significance. I am happy to support Robin Harper's amendments.
As I already indicated, I am not saying that there are no arguments for a non-statutory register, but we just do not think that it would be appropriate for that to be dealt with in the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill. Robin Harper said that a tree preservation order does not protect against vandalism. Self-evidently, a register would not, in itself, protect against vandalism either. In that sense, a register would not add anything to the enhanced tree preservation order powers that we are putting into the bill.
Robin Harper acknowledged that the site of special scientific interest mechanism could work. He objects to it because he feels that it is bureaucratic, but the SSSI mechanism is no more bureaucratic than what he proposes.
We all support the objectives that Robin Harper has outlined, but we think that the measures that we have put into the bill, complemented by Executive amendments 14 and 15, will serve to achieve them.
Amendment 14 agreed to.
Amendment 15 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
Amendment 142 moved—[Robin Harper].
The question is, that amendment 142 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 37, Against 70, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 142 disagreed to.
Amendment 143 not moved.
Amendment 144 moved—[Robin Harper].
The question is, that amendment 144 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 37, Against 72, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 144 disagreed to.
Amendment 145 not moved.
After section 26
Group 23 is on high hedges. We have until 11.40 for this group. I ask members to keep that in mind. Amendment 146, in the name of Dave Petrie, is grouped with amendment 147.
High hedges have been on the agenda since the Scottish Parliament started in 1999. I will begin with an illustration. Let us picture the scene. Scott Barrie decides to celebrate his arrival in Parliament by planting a leylandii. If that leylandii was planted in 1999, it would be likely to have reached the same height as the ceiling of this chamber by now. That illustrates the problem.
The concerned residents who are suffering on a daily basis from the blight of high hedges have suffered for far too long. We have had cross-party agreement here for seven years, yet nothing has been done. Campaigners throughout Scotland have lost faith in the Parliament and in Scott Barrie, who has driven the subject for seven years, because nothing has been done. Today, we have a golden opportunity to put something in the bill that will end immediately the blight of high hedges.
My proposals are straightforward and would require minimum intervention from local authorities. In the initial phases, neighbours would agree to a solution. My garden has trees with which my neighbours might be unhappy. If they want to take the tops off, that does not bother me. [Laughter.]
Order.
Solutions can be achieved by local agreement. With English legislation it has been proved that problems can be solved by reaching local agreements without local authority intervention. If neighbours are not speaking to each other, the next step is mediation, which has worked in several cases. Intervention by local authorities is a last resort.
If we do not agree to amendment 146, we could face another seven years of waiting.
Did I hear the member right? Did he say that amendment 146 would immediately stop trees and hedges growing? Do we have such power?
I know that John Home Robertson is heading for another place and that his concentration level is perhaps not that high, but what I said was straightforward: if amendment 146 is agreed to, it could end the blight of the high hedge problem. I should not have had to repeat that.
I understand that the Executive previously rejected dealing with the subject under the justice portfolio, but that that is being reconsidered—that is another delay.
I am sure that my good friend Christine Grahame will not move her amendment 147 after my amendment 146 succeeds. I say with respect to her that her amendment is too prescriptive and would place too much of a burden on local authorities, but I will probably talk about that after she has spoken.
As I said, high hedges can be dealt with in the bill. We cannot afford to wait another seven years, so I appeal to members to take the opportunity to support my amendment 146.
I move amendment 146.
As Mr Petrie said, the Minister for Justice said five years ago that the Executive had
"decided in principle that a statutory remedy of last resort is required, involving … enforcement action in appropriate cases".—[Official Report, Written Answers, 31 January 2001; Vol 10, S1W-12936 and S1W-12171.]
Nothing has happened. Scott Barrie lodged a proposal for a bill, but nothing happened, at least until two days ago, when he reintroduced his proposal—no surprises there.
John Home Robertson made light of the matter—I know that high hedges can be the subject of many a jocular intervention—but at stage 2 he said:
"I would hope that, between now and stage 3, the minister and the Scottish Executive could use their collective wisdom to draft an amendment that will protect the people in our constituencies."—[Official Report, Communities Committee, 13 September 2006; c 3893.]
So much for collective ministerial wisdom.
I will make brief points about Dave Petrie's amendment 146. The operation of his proposal would be triggered by nuisance or damage, but he should not try to borrow English legislative clothes—nuisance is an English concept and would not work in Scottish legislation. Damage would not deal with the real issue, which is obstruction of light, whereas a hedge that obstructed light would fall foul of the first test in my amendment 147. The process in amendment 146 would also be cumbersome. As for the definition of a high hedge in that amendment, I must claim with embarrassment copyright of the expression "wall-like", but that was a sabotage move by me—I may no longer be Mr Petrie's friend—as the definition in his amendment does not match up to the definition in my amendment.
My amendment 147 sets out a simple procedure that is triggered by two factors. I think that Mr Petrie told me that specifying 2m was too prescriptive. I would agree, if height were the only trigger, but my amendment says that a high hedge must be at least 2m high and that it must affect the reasonable enjoyment of the subjects. That covers what we are trying to get at. The other trigger in my amendment is that a high hedge must obstruct and be a barrier to light. I use the term "barrier" because such hedges are used as barriers—as a neighbour's weapon of war. The minister might have mentioned that.
As for the steps that would have to be taken, members will note that proposed new section 178A(1) in my amendment says that neighbours must have taken reasonable steps to resolve the dispute between themselves. If a complaint were lodged thereafter, an inspection would be conducted to determine whether the definition of a high hedge was applicable and whether the hedge blocked the reasonable enjoyment of the subjects who were adjacent or around. Thereafter, a notice of the complaint would have to be served with a copy of the inspection report, and the party who was complained of would have to have the opportunity to respond and to have a further inspection.
The process is not really that bad. A planning officer would just come along—officers inspect people's drains all the time—inspect the hedge, take out his tape measure and decide whether the hedge blocked the light and disturbed reasonable enjoyment. A copy of the inspection report would be sent to the neighbour. A notice of complaint would be sent by recorded delivery, so there could be no excuse about not receiving it.
If the dispute were not resolved, the owner or occupier would have to take action, but even the timescale for that is not prescriptive—it is to be done
"within 28 days, or such … period as is … reasonable".
If the owner or occupier did not take action, the authority would do so and would charge them for it. That is simple. I have collective wisdom all of my own.
I call Scott Barrie, to be followed by Phil Gallie. Scott Barrie has two minutes.
It is interesting to see friends fall out.
On amendment 146, in the name of Dave Petrie, I say that it is not good enough just to acknowledge a problem and to lodge at stage 3 an amendment that offers no solution. I remind members that Dave Petrie's solution is that the Scottish ministers must consult within a year and produce legislation. That is not good enough.
The Parliament has not seen legislation on high hedges because, although the issue is clear to identify, the solution is not as clear. At least Christine Grahame has attempted to produce a solution in amendment 147. I congratulate her on that.
Will the member take an intervention?
Scott Barrie can take no interventions as he has only two minutes.
I am not entirely convinced that Christine Grahame has produced the right solution.
Members will be aware that this week I lodged an extensive consultation document that offers various solutions to the problem. It will allow people to say what they think is the best way forward. I remind members that local authorities do not wish to be the final arbiters in high-hedge disputes. It is easy for people to say that local authorities should define the problem and decide when to address trees or hedges, but they do not wish to have that power. The consultation document that I have issued does not just borrow from English legislation, which Christine Grahame talked about; it offers a different legal solution, if that is what people want. It is important for people—including those in local authorities, those who are blighted by the problem and those who own hedges—to have a say in who the final arbiter should be. The consultation will allow them to do that.
I am glad that many people are interested in the subject. Members might think that it is strange to introduce a consultation at this stage, but it will allow anyone—because no single person has copyright of an idea in this place—to introduce legislation early in the next parliamentary session, when we can have a proper debate.
It gives me no pleasure to follow Scott Barrie on this issue. I followed him back in 2002, when I backed his high hedges bill, which was kicked into the long grass. Scott Barrie's bill has suddenly and inconveniently emerged from the long grass when we are debating Dave Petrie's absolutely excellent amendment.
Will the member take an intervention?
Phil Gallie has only two minutes.
I raised the issue back in 2002 with amendment 45 at stage 2 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill. The relevant minister, Allan Wilson, kicked that amendment into the long grass, but at that time almost everybody in the Parliament said that they supported the principle. Taking six or seven years to address that principle is far too long.
We were told that devolution would speed up the legislative process and that we would be able to achieve commonsense objectives far more quickly. However, Westminster has achieved the objective that we have not. Perhaps we should learn from that. I plead with everybody in the chamber to follow their principles and give Dave Petrie's amendment 146 100 per cent backing.
Amendments 146 and 147 are similar to an amendment that Dave Petrie lodged at stage 2, and seek to give planning authorities powers to control high hedges.
I repeat what I said at stage 2: I do not want to minimise the significance of the nuisance that high hedges often cause. I recognise and am appalled by the capacity of people in our communities to grow such hedges and cause distress to people who live near them. We must take the issue seriously.
The powers that the proposals would introduce are similar to the powers to control high-hedge nuisance that are contained in the English Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003. At stage 2, I emphasised that problems relating to high hedges are a nuisance issue rather than a land use planning issue. The inclusion of high hedges in the English Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 clearly emphasises that. However, the degree to which Opposition members have been exercised by the form of antisocial behaviour that we are discussing is bizarre, as they were often hostile—or at best ambivalent—to measures that we proposed to deal with the culture of antisocial behaviour in our communities.
The Executive continues to support the principle of a statutory remedy of last resort for disputes about high hedges, but we want separate legislation, such as Scott Barrie's proposed member's bill, rather than the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill to deal with the matter. It is incumbent on all members to be honest and to acknowledge that the challenge for all of us is not to identify the problem but to delineate the solutions. Scott Barrie has proposed a member's bill, but parliamentary procedures do not prevent any other member from proposing legislation. Members who are exercised by the matter could have made their own proposals. I contend that that has not happened because, although the problem is a challenge, identifying the solutions is much more difficult. That is the nub of the issue, although it does not mean that there are no solutions. We should welcome the consultation paper on Scott Barrie's proposed bill.
Christine Grahame's amendment 147 characterises the challenge that we face. She talked about a planning officer just coming along. We want an efficient system, the best use of resources and enforcement rather than a cycle in which a high hedge is assessed, cut down and another assessment is required when the hedge grows again. A difficult problem is involved, but we know what it is. Scott Barrie's consultation paper is an opportunity for all of us to consider how such matters should be addressed. Therefore, I recommend that members reject amendments 146 and 147.
I will brief, as time is not on our side. The consultation that Scott Barrie launched yesterday is identical to the consultation that he launched years ago.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is certainly not identical to the previous consultation. Dave Petrie's comment shows how much of the consultation he has read.
That is not a point of order.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Yesterday, I received intimation of Scott Barrie's consultation and e-mailed him to ask how it will differ from the previous consultation. He said that it will not.
That is not a point of order either. Perhaps the points that have been made would be points of information if there were such things.
Phil Gallie's answer illustrates the farce of the consultation. We had the opportunity to change things six years ago.
I remind members that at stage 2, Euan Robson said that 1,300 responses were received to the Executive's consultation on the matter in 2000-01. Those have been sat on since then. We do not need another consultation.
If members reject my proposals, we will face a wait of another seven years. If they agree to them, we will not.
The question is, that amendment 146 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol
The result of the division is: For 17, Against 94, Abstentions 8.
Amendment 146 disagreed to.
Amendment 147 moved—[Christine Grahame].
The question is, that amendment 147 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Ind)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 38, Against 73, Abstentions 2.
Amendment 147 disagreed to.