Skip to main content

Language: English / Gàidhlig

Loading…
Chamber and committees

Plenary, 07 Mar 2002

Meeting date: Thursday, March 7, 2002


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

Question 1 has been withdrawn, because the member whose question it is is also unwell.


Transport (Budget)

2. Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what transport projects would go ahead if the additional notional allocation of £84 million in the transport budget, outlined in the report "Is Enough Being Spent on Transport in Scotland?", were made available. (S1O-4833)

The figure that is quoted is hypothetical. The Scottish Executive transport budget continues to increase year on year in real terms.

Stewart Stevenson:

Is the minister aware that spending per capita on transport has increased both in Wales since the establishment of the National Assembly and in Northern Ireland's domain? Is the minister aware that any further decline in per capita transport expenditure in Scotland, as adumbrated by the ministers' own transport adviser, Professor David Begg, will, especially in rural areas such as those beyond Aberdeen, further fuel the public's deep cynicism about the Executive's intention?

Is the minister aware that people are sick and tired of the dithering and dancing of the Executive, which is not making real progress on the ground? We do not need more studies; we need the people's priority, which is transport.

Lewis Macdonald:

It is a great shame that Mr Stevenson has not read David Begg's report, to which he refers. Had he done so, he would be aware that Professor Begg does not suggest that there has been a decline in transport expenditure in Scotland. Quite the contrary: Professor Begg recognises that the task of comparing transport spend per head across different parts of the country is difficult. [Interruption.] Mr Stevenson may be pointing to the piece of paper in his hand, but I am afraid that that is no substitute for actually reading the report.

Does the minister agree that it would be a welcome development if the members in this Parliament who whinge about budget priorities produced some priorities of their own?

Lewis Macdonald:

One of the great mysteries that face all of us who are engaged with transport spend is finding out what the Scottish National Party's transport priorities actually are. If that is the party to which Bristow Muldoon referred, I am sure that there will be opportunities to explore the matter further in the future.

At the time of the strategic roads review, the SNP's then transport spokesman, Kenny MacAskill—who has once again become the party's transport spokesman—said that all roads were a priority. That is clearly a bottomless-pit commitment, but the SNP will no doubt tell us how it intends to fund it in due course.


Beaches (European Standards)

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking in order to ensure that beaches meet European standards. (S1O-4810)

The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):

The Scottish Executive is committed to achieving compliance with European standards for all Scottish bathing waters. A massive programme of investment by Scotland's water authorities is already in place. On 26 February, we designated nine Scottish bathing waters as sensitive areas, which will require the most stringent level of treatment to be applied.

Achieving compliance is not, however, merely a matter of investment in sewerage and sewage treatment. We are sponsoring a major programme of research into all forms of potential pollution at bathing waters, including the particularly difficult issue of diffuse pollution.

To achieve that, we have, together with stakeholders, been preparing a strategy that will address the range of pollution threats to our bathing waters and outline the solutions to be applied in a concerted effort to meet standards. That strategy will be available shortly and I will be pleased to give Mr Barrie a copy.

Scott Barrie:

I thank the minister for that very comprehensive answer. As the minister will know, the only three beaches in Scotland that attract blue flag status are in my home area of Fife. That is a tribute to both Fife Council and East of Scotland Water.

Will the strategy that the minister has announced today be accompanied by increased resources, to allow other local authorities and Scottish Water to bring beaches up to the standards that we enjoy in Fife?

Allan Wilson:

In most years, Fife's beaches do relatively well. There may have been a lack of investment in the past, but that is certainly not the case now. Over the period 1999 to 2006, water authorities will spend in excess of £3 billion.

There are other, more complex reasons for the diffuse pollution that affects bathing water quality. Those reasons include sewage, industrial points, source pollution, urban diffuse pollution, agricultural pollution and, of course, the public. Our strategy will address those issues.

Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP):

Has the independent bathing waters panel been involved in compiling the strategy to which the minister referred? When will the panel next meet? I understand that it has not met since 1998. Why did the Government, at that time, turn down the panel's recommendation that two beaches in my constituency of the West of Scotland—Helensburgh and Largs—should be designated for bathing water quality standards?

Allan Wilson:

Commission officials are surprised by how many, rather than how few, beaches are designated. A range of stakeholders is involved in the development of the strategy: the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, water authorities, farmers and others. Four major points—risk assessment, the balance of nutrient spreading, water margin management and the audit of farmyard drainage—will all feature strongly in the strategy when it is produced. I will be happy to give Fiona McLeod a copy of the strategy when it has been written.

John Scott would like a copy as well.

John Scott (Ayr) (Con):

I would. Presumably you will also allow me to ask a question, Presiding Officer.

The minister will be aware that, despite the best efforts of West of Scotland Water, Ayr south beach has failed to achieve a mandatory bathing water pass in each of the past four years. I am aware that various surveys of pollution sources have been conducted, but thus far the situation has not been resolved. Can anything further be done to address this problem, or will the new strategy address it?

Allan Wilson:

I have already indicated in part that it will. SEPA plans a range of intensive visits to Ayrshire and to the south-west more generally. Demographic and climatic conditions in the south-west make it more difficult for beaches in the area to comply with water quality standards. We cannot make the sun shine more brightly—

Oh!

Not yet, anyway. However, we can certainly advise farmers on how best to tackle problems of diffuse pollution.

Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):

There has been great progress on this front. In the old days, when people went to swim off some of our beaches, they were merely going through the motions—that is an old joke.

Will the minister assure me that, in view of all that we have done and are doing, he will work closely with other ministers and departments to market our new clean beaches, not just to Scotland and the rest of the UK, but across the world? We have a great asset that we can sell.

I am happy to give the assurance that the member seeks. Scotland's water quality, air quality and general environment offer great tourism potential.


Recycling (Cars)

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking in order to increase the number of unroadworthy cars that are dismantled and recycled. (S1O-4804)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):

Matters relating to roadworthiness are reserved. It is an owner's responsibility to dispose of a car properly if it is not of a standard to pass an MOT test. However, we have recently consulted on proposals to reduce the period of notice that local authorities have to give before removing abandoned vehicles. That should help to reduce their impact and the risk of their becoming a hazard. In addition, we are considering ways to ensure that a higher proportion of scrapped vehicles is recycled.

Nora Radcliffe:

My initial question was not unrelated to the end-of-life vehicles directive and the measures that will be required to implement that directive in due course. Bearing in mind our experience with fridges, will the minister assure me that the Scottish Executive is pressing the UK Government on what it needs to do—ideally, starting now—to ensure that facilities will be up and running in time? Will he also assure me that we in Scotland are doing what we need to do to ensure that we have the facilities that will be required to implement the end-of-life vehicles directive?

Ross Finnie:

I assure Nora Radcliffe that we are cognisant of the impact that the end-of-life vehicles directive will have. We are consulting the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department of Trade and Industry, and the other devolved Administrations, on a common recovery and recycling scheme for the UK. We consulted the industry last autumn on a range of implementation options and will follow that up with more detailed proposals this spring. In addition, SEPA is on a working group with the car and dismantling industries and is considering how best to meet the technical requirements of the directive. That will be set down in a code of practice.

Mr John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab):

Does the minister share my concern about the increasing number of unroadworthy vehicles that are being abandoned on public roads and streets? Does he accept that the existing system, which puts the onus on the police to find the owner and requires local authorities to meet the cost of removing the car, is no longer acceptable? Will the Executive give local authorities the power to ensure that vehicle owners take responsibility for the cost of disposing of their scrapped cars?

Ross Finnie:

John Home Robertson's question is timely. The issue to which he refers fits in with the question of how we respond to the end-of-life vehicles directive. The directive will shift the onus on to the manufacturer. However, that process will also involve the question of who should pay for the disposal of scrapped cars. We must take that issue into account when we formulate the regulations. The issue is not simply about implementing the EU directive, as that will apply only after one has arranged for a car's disposal. That matter has not been dealt with, but we have it in mind.


Wildlife Protection

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking in order to protect wildlife. (S1O-4827)

The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):

The Executive policy statement "The Nature of Scotland", which was published in March 2001, set out proposals to improve the management of sites of scientific interest and to provide more effective measures against wildlife crime. Consultation on the proposals is continuing and a draft bill will be published as soon as possible.

Last week, I attended the first Scottish biodiversity forum. I asked the forum to work on a biodiversity strategy for Scotland that would set a framework for action to support Scotland's special habitats and species.

Rhona Brankin:

Will the minister prioritise that bill, bearing in mind the need to catch up with legislation in England and Wales, to prevent wildlife criminals from coming north of the border, and the need to comply with European environmental law? We have a firm Executive commitment to introduce a draft nature conservation bill during the current parliamentary session. When will that draft bill be published?

Allan Wilson:

The draft bill will be published as soon as possible. Measures are in force to combat wildlife crime. When I spoke to police about the matter, I was anxious to impress on them that combating such crime should be part of their core activity because the criminal element that is involved in wildlife crime is often involved in drug smuggling and other crimes.

Many of the proposed changes are complex. There is no quick fix for the problem. When we are satisfied that we have made the right changes, we will publish the draft bill.

Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):

Does the minister recall that, during a debate on natural heritage last November, Ross Finnie said:

"I have accelerated the timetable for the production of the bill. Let there be no question about that."—[Official Report, 15 November 2001; c 3905.]

Will the minister therefore give us a date for the introduction of the bill? The matter is taking far too long. Is this an example of doing less better, or of doing nothing brilliantly?

Allan Wilson:

I suppose that we should expect the Scottish National Party to raise debate to the lowest common denominator.

As I said, the matters are complex. Just as I cannot make the sun shine, I cannot conjure bills out of thin air. The matter is not as simplistic as Mr Lochhead would have had us believe when he compared it with the parliamentary time that was devoted to the Fur Farming (Prohibition) (Scotland) Bill. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the complexities that are involved would understand that we will need to devote much more parliamentary time and resources to the draft bill than Mr Lochhead suggested.

Will the minister ensure that he protects all wildlife, especially songbirds, and not just the raptor and predator sector?

Allan Wilson:

I am anxious to ensure that our songbird population is protected. As Jamie McGrigor will know, because the previous Tory Government signed up for the measures, we have designated special areas of protection for birds. We have a legislative requirement to look after raptors as well, however, and there is a balance to be struck in those conservation measures.


Manufacturing and Food Processing<br />(North-East Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are being taken in order to support the manufacturing and food processing sectors in the north-east of Scotland. (S1O-4782)

Scottish Enterprise Grampian works closely with companies in manufacturing and food processing, and is currently preparing reports on the north-east economy in general and the manufacturing sector in particular.

Richard Lochhead:

The minister will be aware that the manufacturing and food processing sectors in Tayside and Grampian have taken a hammering in the past year. Does the minister understand the frustration that is felt by many workers when, time and time again, the enterprise department publishes meaningless glossy documents such as the one that I am holding, which cost a lot of money and talk about long-term strategies, when livelihoods are on the line here and now? Will the minister introduce some action points to help the food processing industry and the manufacturing sector, which are up against difficulties in the short term rather than the long term? They need action to be taken now.

Lewis Macdonald:

Mr Lochhead knows that I am aware of the difficulties that he is talking about. The Richards of Aberdeen manufacturing facility, which is one of the companies that is in difficulty, is in my constituency. It is the policy of the Executive and the enterprise network to work with those companies to try to reduce the risks that they run in the wider economy.

We are aware of the need for diversification in the economy of the north-east. We are continuing to support the enterprise network's efforts in that regard.

It is important to say that Scottish Enterprise Grampian and the local authority take seriously their responsibility to work with industry. The same situation pertains in Tayside. Workers in those industries are looking not for debates for and against the production of glossy documents, but for market opportunities that will allow those companies to thrive. That is what we are committed to achieving as well.

Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con):

I welcome the minister's announcement of the assessment that is to be carried out by Scottish Enterprise Grampian.

It has been well over two years since I first raised the issue of the problems that face this sector in the north-east. Should Scottish Enterprise Grampian's report result in a requirement for immediate action that will need to be resourced by the Executive, what resources will the minister make available?

Lewis Macdonald:

We have asked Scottish Enterprise Grampian to examine the position as it affects the companies that are involved. McIntosh of Dyce is the other company that is in receivership, and the MSP in whose constituency that company is, Elaine Thomson, has raised that matter with us. We have asked Scottish Enterprise Grampian to report back to us, but we have not made any prejudgments on what it will discover.

Mr Davidson will know that the enterprise company's manufacturing strategy has been successful, in that employment in manufacturing is higher in the north-east than it is in the country as a whole. However, there are clearly points in that strategy that need to be revisited and that is what we have asked the enterprise company to do.


Schools (Buildings)

To ask the Scottish Executive what funding it provides for repairs to school buildings. (S1O-4800)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):

In addition to the resources that are available to local authorities in their general revenue budgets, the Scottish Executive makes funding for improvements to the fabric of the school estate available through capital allocations, the new deal for schools, the school buildings improvement fund, and revenue support for public-private partnership projects.

Mr Paterson:

Is the minister aware of an article in a Sunday newspaper that described a Lanarkshire school as our worst school? I do not think that that is an unusual story to hear about Lanarkshire, but the story states that it is too dangerous to turn on the lights, water pours through the roof and the staffroom ceiling has fallen in on the teachers.

Does the minister agree that there has been serious neglect in Scottish schools for decades and that it is the responsibility of the Scottish Executive to take action now? I understand that the Executive has provided £12 million for emergency repairs to schools in Scotland. That is a pittance—it would not be enough to address the situation in one school in Lanarkshire, never mind the rest of the country.

Cathy Jamieson:

I am aware of concerns about the fabric of the school that the member mentions and I have had discussions with the local MSP, Elaine Smith, about the situation. She has indicated that she will pursue the matter.

I am also aware that the school board is taking up the issue with the council. I make it clear that maintenance of school buildings is the responsibility of the local authority. I am assured that North Lanarkshire Council intends to deal with the matter and will take health and safety issues into account in that process.

George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):

Is the minister aware of the bid by Argyll and Bute Council to the public-private partnership fund for some £90 million to overhaul and bring up to a high standard all the schools in Argyll and Bute? The proposal is rather novel, in that it is on a not-for-profit basis. Will the minister tell me when a decision is likely to be reached and whether she is giving priority to that unique proposal from Argyll and Bute Council?

Cathy Jamieson:

I assure the member that I am aware of all the novel and innovative proposals that have been made by all the local authorities throughout Scotland that are seeking to upgrade their school facilities with the best interests of children and young people at heart. We are giving full consideration to those proposals. I want to ensure that we use the opportunity to have buildings that are fit for the 21st century in which to educate our pupils. That is my priority.

David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):

I welcome the minister's commitment to having school facilities that are fit for the 21st century, but does she agree that it is not acceptable that those facilities should be made available in a number of schools at the cost of the closure of small rural schools?

Cathy Jamieson:

I have answered that question from the same member on a previous occasion, when I made it perfectly clear that any proposals to close schools must be made within the appropriate regulations and statutory requirements and that we expect all local authorities to consult the people who are involved in the schools—parents, teachers, pupils and others. I expect that Dumfries and Galloway Council, to which I assume that Mr Mundell is referring, will engage fully in that process.


Sleep Apnoea

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will prioritise the purchase of more sleep apnoea machines in view of waiting times for sleep apnoea treatment. (S1O-4787)

The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):

The treatment needs of sleep apnoea sufferers, along with many other clinical needs, will be reflected in national health service boards' spending plans for 2002-03, when an average of 7.2 per cent more funding will be available from the Scottish Executive than is available in the current year. As well as meeting national waiting targets, NHS boards should ensure that they target any particularly long waiting times in their areas.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:

Is the minister aware that up to 1,000 patients of Edinburgh royal infirmary's sleep clinic are waiting two and a half years for a sleep apnoea machine, which costs a mere £300? Does the minister agree that that lengthy wait for treatment is unnecessary and causes patients and their families discomfort and stress? Does he also agree that, as a result of that astonishing lack of treatment, patients with driving licences are conceivably a hazard to themselves and the general public?

Malcolm Chisholm:

Like Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, I am concerned about the long wait for treatment for sleep apnoea. As Minister of State with responsibility for health, Lord James stopped the service being treated as a national service in 1996. The problems have, to some extent, resulted from that. Funding is now increasing, but so is demand, as diagnosis and awareness of this most distressing condition increase. I look forward to further progress this year, as well as to the publication of a Scottish intercollegiate guidelines network guideline on sleep apnoea in the summer.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I stopped that sleep clinic being closed.

Order. That is not a point of order. You can ask another question.

Does the minister acknowledge that the sleep clinic would have closed had it not been for my intervention?

Malcolm Chisholm:

I believe what Lord James tells me on that point. I referred to the fact that the service was no longer treated as a national service. A lot of the problems have arisen because the funding no longer came from the national service but came from individual health boards. Of course, I accept the point that Lord James has just made.

Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):

Is the minister aware that the Public Petitions Committee received a petition on waiting times for the sleep clinic in Edinburgh and was told that the issue would be addressed in the Lothian health plan? Is he aware that I have since learned from the petitioners that there is no reference to sleep apnoea in the draft plan that Lothian NHS Board has published?

Given the fact that the clinic serves not only Edinburgh and Lothian but the whole of east Scotland, will the minister intervene to ensure that the clinic is included in Lothian's final plan? Will he also ensure that the disgraceful two-and-a-half-year waiting time is brought down in the near future?

Malcolm Chisholm:

John McAllion is quite right that several boards are involved. Although all the boards have increased their funding for the clinic, more funding is clearly required. The traditional stance of the Executive and the former Scottish Office was to say that waiting times were a matter for boards. We are saying that boards must tackle waiting times, especially those that are particularly long. I expect Lothian NHS Board and the other boards to deal with the waiting times for what is a most distressing condition, which can—as Lord James Douglas-Hamilton pointed out—be highly dangerous.

Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

Is the minister aware that Professor Neil Douglas, who is conducting a three-year research project into sleep apnoea at the University of Edinburgh, has stated that at least 20 per cent of major road accidents are caused by people falling asleep at the wheel, which means that sleep apnoea has now overtaken excessive alcohol consumption as a major cause of such accidents? Is not the minister concerned that up to 4,000 people in Tayside alone are affected by the condition? Will he take steps to ensure that sleep apnoea services are given a much greater funding priority to ensure that the waiting lists are dealt with?

Malcolm Chisholm:

As I said, I am concerned about the waiting times. Having spoken to Professor Douglas, I know that he is keen to have more funding and to develop the services. He has talked about developing a managed clinical network. The SIGN guideline might also point in that direction.

The position is that funding decisions are for boards, but I have probably gone further than any previous Scottish Executive or Scottish Office minister in saying that we expect boards to address their long waiting times. Sleep apnoea is clearly a serious and distressing condition and I certainly expect more action to be taken to deal with the waiting times.


Social Workers

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking in order to promote social work as a career. (S1O-4829)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):

In the coming months, the Scottish Executive will continue to work closely with the newly created Scottish Social Services Council and other organisations to ensure that, locally and nationally, we work together to put in place effective new strategies for this vital work force. We have made clear our commitment to substantial and sustainable reforms by establishing the new body and by making available significant new funds. We are consulting employers and educationists on the next steps.

Karen Whitefield:

I thank the minister for her detailed response. Does she agree that, if we are to attract more people into careers in social work, we need to improve the public perception of social workers and of the services that they provide? Will she also explain what plans the Scottish Executive has to improve and upgrade social work training in Scotland?

Cathy Jamieson:

As a former social worker, I am happy to indicate that I very much value the work that social workers do. In response to the chuckles that have come from the SNP benches, I suggest that, instead of making cheap political points, some of those members should spend time going out to see what social workers have to deal with at the front line.

I stress that the Executive is committed to ensuring that we have a good-quality, highly trained social work work force. Only this week, I met representatives of the Association of Directors of Social Work and the Association of Directors of Education to consider how we might jointly develop plans to revise and reform social work training so that we have a social work profession for the 21st century.

Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP):

I declare an interest: I certainly would not chuckle, as my wife is a social worker. Will the minister say whether she is satisfied with the size of the case loads of many social workers, especially those who work with children and families? Will the minister answer the point that Karen Whitefield made by saying what practical steps she will take to raise the esteem in which social workers are held by the public? The lack of esteem is a significant factor in recruitment.

Cathy Jamieson:

I thank the member for his helpful comments. If his wife is a social worker, I am sure that he is well aware of the long hours and heavy case loads that are borne by those who are involved in child protection and children's services.

We must recognise that there is no quick-fix solution to the problem. We need a change in the way in which social workers are trained. However, some things can be done at the moment. We are considering how we can learn from the work that has already been done to recruit and retain social work staff.

When we talk about social work as a profession, we must also remember to highlight the very good work that happens across Scotland. Unfortunately, all too often, the problem areas are highlighted. We can learn from good practice and the Executive intends to do that. We are examining how we can organise recruitment and retention campaigns. We are also examining how we can best support front-line staff in the process.

Does the minister agree that social work entrants should be made aware that social work is not only a career but a calling that requires dedication and patience?

Cathy Jamieson:

I can safely say that the majority of entrants into the social work profession are very aware of the demands that will be made on their time. Throughout their social work training, they are left in no doubt about that. I want to see opportunities for people to get involved in the process. I encourage people who are contemplating entry to the profession to go and talk to the people who are doing the best work in the front line at the moment.

Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):

Does the minister agree that, in addition to addressing wages, which is an issue that relates to problems with retention, the Executive must address immediately the problem of student placements? A number of students from the University of Glasgow have contacted me to complain that, despite promises, local authorities are unable to offer student placements on social work courses, which deters students from pursuing a career in social work. Does she agree that that area requires urgent attention?

Cathy Jamieson:

I am aware of that issue and of the fact that the member has made representations on the matter, as have other members from the Glasgow area. I am concerned about the matter. We will have to consider it in the context of examining social work training overall. The matter has been taken up and meetings have taken place between representatives of Glasgow City Council and the social work services inspectorate to try to resolve some of the issues. The matter will continue to have my attention.

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):

I want to return to the front-line crisis that exists in Glasgow social work. The minister was saved from confirming whether she is aware of the full extent of the crisis. There is a particular problem in Glasgow, where there are areas of great need. Does the minister accept that that damages the ability of the Executive and Glasgow City Council to help young people in trouble? Does she also accept that the issue is fraught and has long-term consequences? Will the minister reassure the chamber about the steps that can be taken, for example to encourage the return of experienced older people to social work? The immediate problems will get worse unless they are tackled now.

Cathy Jamieson:

I am happy to respond to the member and I am happy to note the level of interest that this question has generated. It is high time that people took an interest in the issue.

As I indicated, a number of discussions have already taken place. We want to consider creatively how we can encourage people to return to the profession. We must also recognise that there are a number of areas within social work in which people who have skills in working with young people but who may not yet be qualified social workers may be able to do some of the work and achieve their professional qualifications while they are doing so. Those are the kind of initiatives that we ought to consider and we will continue to pursue them.


Education (Pay and Conditions)

10. Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will take any action to ensure that fair packages for pay and conditions are negotiated with education advisers, educational psychologists and musical instrument instructors and that all those affected have a chance to vote on their package. (S1O-4816)

The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):

I apologise to the Presiding Officer for the delay in replying. There was a last-minute switch in the minister who was to answer the question.

In a recent ballot, musical instrument instructors voted to accept a pay and conditions offer. At the meeting of the Scottish negotiating committee for teachers on 28 February, the local authority employers tabled an offer for education advisers and psychologists. The teacher organisations will now consult their adviser and educational psychologist members and a formal response is expected at the next meeting of the SNCT on 25 March 2002. Responsibility for all ballot arrangements rests with the teacher organisations.

Donald Gorrie:

Does the minister accept that the three groups of people that I mentioned are vital members of the educational team? Does she accept that because those people are not very numerous and because they are represented by different unions and some of them do not belong to a union, she has a duty to ensure that they have a fair offer and a chance to vote on it?

Cathy Jamieson:

The offer that was made to those groups of people was reached through consultation and negotiation with the relevant trade unions. It is not appropriate for a member of the Executive to interfere in that process. The appropriate trade unions are fully involved in the negotiations and the balloting process.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

Four education advisers and musical instrument instructors are to lose their jobs because of the £5.5 million cuts by Scottish Borders Council. Does the minister agree that such people are essential to deliver a rounded education programme? If so, what action is she taking to save those jobs?

As I have said before, responsibility for the matter rests with Scottish Borders Council, which is responsible for managing its budgets. It would be inappropriate of me to intervene in the process.

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):

The minister referred to a ballot of musical instrument instructors. Is she aware that that ballot took place only among musical instrument instructors who are members of the Educational Institute of Scotland and that a substantial proportion of instrument instructors are not EIS members? Is she concerned that their views have not been properly taken into account?

Cathy Jamieson:

I am aware that a number of musical instrument instructors are members of the Musicians Union and that there is a long-standing agreement between the EIS and the Musicians Union about which organisation takes the lead in negotiations. It is not for me to interfere in that matter; it is for the two representative organisations to resolve.


Scottish Transport Group Pension Schemes

To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with the trustees of the Scottish Transport Group pension funds about the winding up of the pension schemes. (S1O-4821)

I met trustees of the Scottish Transport Group pension schemes yesterday and I am delighted to confirm that they have now begun the formal procedures required to complete the wind-up of the pension schemes.

Dennis Canavan:

Begun? It is about time that they finished. Will the Executive face up to its responsibilities? The Executive foolishly gave the trustees indemnity without giving them a deadline for handing over the money. After tax, the surplus has grown to about £175 million, which is much more than the £118 million that is on offer to the pensioners. Given that, will the Executive increase the offer and give the trustees a firm deadline for handing over the money so that the payments can be made to the pensioners, who have waited for nearly 10 years for justice to be done?

Lewis Macdonald:

If we had followed the policy line that Mr Canavan suggested and not issued indemnities to the trustees in the middle of last year, the pensioners would have had to wait a good deal longer than I hope will be the case. By issuing the indemnities, we made it possible for the trustees to proceed with the wind-up. They have begun that process, which is an important step, for which pensioners and members have long waited. We should welcome that step and encourage the trustees to proceed with all possible speed. Rather than seeking to apportion blame for past delays, we should try to ensure that future delays are kept as short as possible.

Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):

I have received a letter from the minister that addresses some of the questions that MSPs and the campaign group raised at the meeting at New St Andrew's House before Christmas. Will the minister respond to one unanswered question, which is whether he will pursue the reason why the ex gratia payments are taxed, which is a double taxing of the surplus fund? Advice that was given to the campaign group suggested a £30,000 threshold for the tax; the Transport and General Workers Union said that no tax should be paid. What is the situation?

Lewis Macdonald:

I thank Sylvia Jackson for her interest in the issue and for pursuing that important point. The letter that she received should have answered the other questions that were raised at the meeting. The issue of tax is still outstanding with the Inland Revenue.

We have put to the Inland Revenue the arguments that have been put to us and we have asked it to consider the matter. Last year, its advice was that the ex gratia payments were liable to income tax in the usual way. The figure of £30,000 that Sylvia Jackson mentioned and that the T and G brought to our attention was a figure relating specifically to redundancy payments and not to ex gratia payments. However, we have taken that point on board and we have asked the Inland Revenue to consult its lawyers formally. We will report back on the matter as soon as possible.