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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Wednesday, June 5, 2013


Contents


Portfolio Question Time


Justice and the Law Officers

In order to get in as many members as possible, I would prefer short and succinct questions and answers, please.


Police Scotland (Community Planning Partnerships)



1. To ask the Scottish Government what role Police Scotland plays in community planning partnerships. (S4O-02195)

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)

Police Scotland is a key partner in all 32 community planning partnerships. Local policing is the bedrock of the new service, and the chief constable has a statutory duty to participate in community planning. That function is delegated to local commanders who, working closely with local partners, are responsible for developing and delivering local policing plans, which contribute directly to the local outcomes that are identified through community planning.

Jean Urquhart

The public have rightly been outraged by the actions of the Metropolitan Police, which removed sleeping bags, food and other personal belongings from homeless people in London, and justified those acts by saying:

“The public rely on police to reduce the negative impact of rough sleepers.”

What assurances can the Scottish Government give that Scotland’s justice system will not follow the Metropolitan Police’s callous approach but, rather, will work with other public sector partners to address issues to do with homelessness constructively and humanely?

Kenny MacAskill

Yet again, we have a tale of two jurisdictions. As with police numbers, which are rising here while they are plummeting south of the border, such matters are dealt with differently. I can give the member an assurance that the values and the ethos to which she refers are not, have not been and will not be in the future the values or the ethos of Police Scotland. I say that on the basis of meetings that I have had with the chief constable earlier this week and a meeting that I had this morning with the police investigations and review commissioner. That view will no doubt be echoed when I meet George Graham, Her Majesty’s inspector of constabulary, and Calum Steele, the general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation. That is not how we treat rough sleepers or those who are homeless in Scotland, whether as a Government or as a police service.


Access to Justice (Rural Areas)



2. To ask the Scottish Government how it will safeguard local access to the justice system in rural areas. (S4O-02196)

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)

The recommendations in the Scottish Court Service consultation, “Shaping Scotland’s Court Services”, were drawn up in the light of the principles for provision of access to justice that were agreed among the Lord President, the Lord Justice Clerk and the sheriffs principal, which included the principle that the Scottish Court Service should ensure that most people will be able to travel to their local court by public transport so as to arrive at the start of the case in which they are concerned and be able to return home by public transport on the same day. That local court should, as a minimum, be able to hear and determine summary criminal cases and lower-value or more straightforward civil matters.

The recommendations on future court structures adhere to that principle, and local access to justice in rural areas will thus be safeguarded.

Jim Hume

The cabinet secretary has stated that

“the people in Peebles ... are entitled to a court on their doorstep”,

and that

“We need to recognise the importance to the community of retaining the sheriff court in Peebles.”—[Official Report, 27 June 2002; c 10277-8.]

Those are his words from 2002.

In my region, four courts are earmarked for closure: those at Haddington, Duns, Kirkcudbright and Peebles. The removal of those courts will present particular transport challenges for my constituents. Is it not time that the cabinet secretary admits that the Government has got it badly wrong, stands by his words of 2002, and pledges to protect our valuable local courts and to put the Scottish National Party members of the Justice Committee out of their misery?

Kenny MacAskill

Those were my words in 2002, but the world moves on. I must look at the volume of business at Peebles sheriff court in 2012, when the average number of trials per week was 0.1. In 2012, there were just seven trials at summary level in which evidence was led, and five proofs in which evidence was led.

There comes a time when, as we have seen south of the border—we have quotes about this from United Kingdom Government ministers who share the same party affiliation as Mr Hume—things have to be done. I have no doubt that he will make similar complaints about the closure of courts in Alnwick, Cockermouth and Penrith that his party is inflicting south of the border, where courts are being closed to a much greater extent than we are requiring to do here. Our closures are coming about because of the financial cuts that his colleagues down in London have imposed.

Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)

Rod Campbell MSP told The Courier:

“To people in North and East Fife, local justice means attending court in North and East Fife, not Dundee.”

Does the cabinet secretary agree with that remark, particularly as the movement of business from Cupar to Dundee will mean that it is moved from the Fife and Forth Valley community justice authority area into an entirely separate area, which has huge implications for managing offenders?

Kenny MacAskill

Rod Campbell is an outstanding constituency MSP. He has met me and, correctly, put forward the position as he sees it on behalf of his constituents. Equally, I have to take on board the view and position that have been put forward by the Lord President, who is our most senior judge, and his staff, led by the chief executive of the Scottish Court Service.

In many instances, people require to go back to their area having been dealt with in a court that is in a different CJA area. That happens routinely—members in Ms Baker’s party will confirm the situation in Glasgow, where people come in from Rutherglen and other places. It is perfectly possible to deal with such situations, not simply through the good offices of the Scottish Court Service but through local authorities and the Association of Directors of Social Work, who are charged with dealing with those aspects.

Will the cabinet secretary review the resources that are available in rural areas for tackling wildlife crime to ensure that species such as the freshwater pearl mussel are given far better protection than they have at present?

Kenny MacAskill

I am happy to say that tomorrow I will meet Deputy Chief Constable Rose Fitzpatrick, who is in charge of local policing in Scotland. I will be happy to raise that matter with her and get back to Mary Scanlon on it. I do not have the particular briefing to hand but, as I said, I will be happy to ensure that I feed back to Mary Scanlon on the matter.

I call Christine Grahame. Please be brief.

Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will be very brief.

Is the cabinet secretary aware that, in 2002, the Labour and Liberal Executive was hell-bent on closing Peebles sheriff court—and that was in the good times, before Danny Alexander got his hands on the purse strings?

Absolutely. As well as selective memories, people have myopia when they refuse to look at what is being done south of the border.


Scottish Court Service (Review)



3. To ask the Scottish Government what considerations informed the Scottish Court Service’s review of court services. (S4O-02197)

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)

The context of the Scottish Court Service’s consultation “Shaping Scotland’s Court Services” is that the network of courts that we have inherited reflects more the social and economic needs of the Victorian age. Many court houses date from those times and the facilities do not always fully meet the standards that are expected of a modern court.

Moreover, the Scottish Court Service is not immune to the financial constraints that the Westminster Government has imposed, and it is required to meet challenges as we move to providing a modern system within a reduced budget. Against the backdrop of unprecedented cuts to the Scottish budget from Westminster, the Scottish Court Service is seeking to save £4.5 million from its revenue budget and £6.4 million from its capital budget in the period 2011-12 to 2014-15. I fully understand and sympathise with the challenges that the Lord President is facing. They have been forced on us because we are not in charge of our own financial destiny.

Chic Brodie

As the cabinet secretary will know, an independent forensic accounting analysis was carried out by those who are against the closure of the Haddington court. That has caused some confusion about the reliability of the figures that have been produced by both sets of protagonists. Will the cabinet secretary request that both sides now sit down together to validate the details of their analyses so that the decision to close the court is substantiated on the basis of the facts?

Kenny MacAskill

The matter is fundamentally one for the Scottish Court Service. The Parliament unanimously passed the Judiciary and Courts (Scotland) Act 2008 and the Lord President is in charge of the Scottish Court Service, which is separate from Government.

However, I see no reason for such a meeting. As I mentioned yesterday at the Justice Committee, I do not believe that the headline figure that was put forward in the forensic report deals with matters appropriately. In Edinburgh, costs will remain the same and will not increase. I have full confidence in the position that has been taken by the Lord President and the Scottish Court Service.

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

What consideration did the cabinet secretary give to the safety of victims and witnesses, who should not have to travel to court with the accused? That was highlighted in particular by Ross-shire Women’s Aid, which is concerned about people who suffer from domestic abuse. What steps will he take to ensure their safety?

Kenny MacAskill

That matter is given the highest regard, not simply by the Government and the Scottish Court Service but particularly by the Crown, which is responsible for the citation of Crown witnesses, and Police Scotland. It has been raised with me both in committee and privately by John Finnie.

I am aware of the views and concerns of Ross-shire Women’s Aid. It is right and understandable for it to raise such matters. However, as with the position put forward by the Scottish Court Service, we can give an assurance that the Scottish police and indeed the Crown will take all such matters into account. Such circumstances and challenges are faced everywhere in Scotland, not always simply in rural areas but quite often in the peripheral housing schemes that exist in urban Scotland. They are treated most seriously, and victims and witnesses will be protected and provided for by the Crown and by Police Scotland.


Illegal Transportation of People (Scottish Airports)



4. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will use the criminal justice system to establish whether people have been transported illegally through Scottish airports and discourage it from happening again. (S4O-02198)

The Lord Advocate (Frank Mulholland)

The use of torture cannot be condoned. It is against international law and contrary to the common law of Scotland.

As the member will be aware, a police inquiry was conducted into allegations of extraordinary rendition at Scottish airports in 2007-08. Following the inquiry, the police concluded that there was insufficient credible and reliable information to enable them to commence a criminal investigation.

I am aware of the information that was provided by the rendition project involving researchers at the University of Kent and Kingston University. I consider that that information—and any other information that is additional to that considered by the police in 2007—should be the subject of police consideration. I will therefore ask Police Scotland to give consideration to that information.

Margo MacDonald

I thank the Lord Advocate for his full reply. It is a better quality of reply than we have had on the issue up until now. However, as he is aware of the recent research, he will realise that allegations persist that such flights came through Scotland. I ask him to not dilly-dally and wait for someone to tell him that there should be an inquiry, because the evidence is there in front of his eyes and the will is there too, I imagine, from this Government, because the present minister said—in, I think, 2007—

Briefly.

Margo MacDonald

—that it comes down to political will. Fundamentally, that is what is lacking from the Executive. The Government, as the Executive, must stand up for the values to which the people of Scotland adhere and maintain the laws that we have held dear for centuries. I appreciate that that is not in the Lord Advocate’s domain, but perhaps he could tell the minister that that is what we all believe.

The Lord Advocate

I thank Margo MacDonald for her supplementary question. It is very important that there should be no dilly-dallying on this matter. I am confident that the police will conduct a thorough inquiry, which is always important in such matters.

However, it should be recognised that in order for criminal proceedings to be raised, it must be proved that a crime that is known to the law of Scotland has been committed; that an identified individual or individuals have committed or aided and abetted that crime within this jurisdiction; and that the individuals have the necessary mens rea—that is, knowledge that their actions are furthering the commission of the crime, and intent. Importantly, speculation, conjecture, innuendo and belief are insufficient. What we need is hard evidence—sufficient evidence that meets the requisite high standard of proof is required. However, I am confident that the police will do their duty and will conduct a thorough inquiry in accordance with Police Scotland principles.


Fines and Penalties (Collection)



5. To ask the Scottish Government what measures it is taking to ensure that court fines and police antisocial behaviour penalties are collected. (S4O-02199)

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)

Since the Scottish Court Service took over responsibility in 2008, the overall collection of fines and penalties has improved considerably and is now at consistently high levels. In some cases, people who are finding it difficult to pay their fine can agree an alternative repayment plan with the fines enforcement officers.

For people who decide not to pay, enhanced tracing facilities are making it easier to track them down and apply the full range of enforcement actions, including deducting benefits, freezing bank accounts, arresting wages and seizing cars. Sheriff officers are also helping to target persistent defaulters who ignore payment demands. Ultimately, fine defaulters can be brought before the courts to explain why they have not paid and to receive an order of the court.

Alex Johnstone

I take this opportunity to heap lavish praise on the minister for his initiative in contacting the Department for Work and Pensions earlier in the year to ensure that there is a full and proper flow of information from the DWP to the Scottish justice department so that fines can be collected. Can he say exactly how effective that close working relationship with Iain Duncan Smith has been and how many fines have been collected as a direct result?

Kenny MacAskill

I am not able to give precise details, but we were communicating with Mr Duncan Smith and his predecessors for some time. I welcome the fact that the information and powers are now available, and these matters will be worked through by the DWP and the Scottish Court Service. Much of the work involves enabling the SCS to obtain access to certain information in order to find out where people are and to access their employment data and national insurance details to find out where they are working. Previously, the SCS was unable to access that information easily.

I am happy to brief Alex Johnstone—or to get a briefing for him from the SCS chief executive—on where we are right now. There is work in progress, and Mr Johnstone is right to give Iain Duncan Smith credit as we are grateful for his work with us. We are at the start of a journey, but the SCS welcomes that.

Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)

Does the minister agree that, to avoid fines and penalties, those who act aggressively in an antisocial manner towards innocent bystanders should apologise—preferably in person—reflect on their future behaviour and consider the impression that it gives to those who are caught up in the antisocial act?

Kenny MacAskill

I have a great deal of sympathy with and support for restorative justice, but it is not suitable for some vulnerable witnesses. It is best left to the police and the Crown to exercise their discretion. Neil Findlay makes a valid point, and where restorative justice is appropriate it can benefit both the perpetrator and the victim. However, we must ensure that we leave such matters to the authorities that are charged with that responsibility to discuss with the victim and the perpetrator.

Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)

The cabinet secretary will be aware that half the money that is collected in fines goes to the Treasury in London. In 2007, £113,000 went to the Treasury rather than being kept in Scotland. Does he agree that that money could go a long way in helping victims and bringing the perpetrators of crime to justice if it was kept here in Scotland?

Kenny MacAskill

Absolutely. I was gobsmacked yesterday to hear the Labour justice spokesman say that the difficulties and financial challenges that the Scottish Court Service is facing as a result of the cuts, which were ultimately caused by the actions of the coalition Government in Westminster, could all be dealt with through better enforcement of the payment of fines. If only that were the case. The overwhelming majority of fines income in fact goes directly to the Treasury that is imposing those self-same cuts. As with other aspects, people should take a long hard look at the facts and consider whether they have their information right.


People with Autism (Engagement with Legal System)



6. To ask the Scottish Government what support is available for people with autism when engaging with the legal system. (S4O-02200)

The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham)

The National Autistic Society maintains a list of law firms that have experience of advising and representing people with autism. People can search the database on the Law Society’s website for legal services in their area.

The Crown Office is committed to ensuring that the correct support is put in place for victims and witnesses and that it takes into account their individual needs. It has specific guidance on autism, including publications such as “Autism: a guide for criminal justice professionals”, which is produced by the National Autistic Society, and a guide entitled “People with Learning Disabilities and the Criminal Justice System”.

I am aware of the Law Society’s work in raising awareness of such conditions with its members. Can the minister comment on any further help that is available?

Roseanna Cunningham

The “People with Learning Disabilities and the Criminal Justice System” guide was produced by the Scottish Government in 2011 in collaboration with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, the Scottish Court Service, the Scottish Prison Service and NHS Scotland. It provides information on the Scottish criminal justice system to people with learning disabilities.

In addition, autism alert cards have been developed to improve outcomes from interactions with members of the emergency services and others. The cards can be carried by people with autism and used in difficult situations in which those people may find communication difficult. The card has been developed by the National Autistic Society and has been launched in the Highlands, Lothian and the Borders, Orkney, Shetland, the Western Isles, central Scotland and Strathclyde. The autism spectrum disorder reference group has discussed national implementation of the card, and it is considering how to roll out the scheme across Scotland. Recommendations will be made to my ministerial colleague Michael Matheson for consideration later in the year.


Police Control Rooms



7. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with the chief constable regarding the number and location of control rooms required by Police Scotland. (S4O-02201)

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)

That is an operational matter and no discussions have taken place with the chief constable. However, I am aware that Police Scotland is undertaking work to ensure that the contact, command and control division is as effective as possible in looking to provide the best service to communities.

There are 45 civilian staff and 12 police officers in the control room in Dumfries. Can the cabinet secretary impress on the chief constable the need to consult and communicate with those staff in advance of the final decision being made?

Kenny MacAskill

I will be happy to do that when I meet senior officers tomorrow. I can give the member the assurance that I discussed the matter with Unison earlier this week, when Gerry Crawley and other staff representatives came to see me. I am aware of the concerns, but there need to be changes to ensure that we get the appropriate protection for our communities. I think that it is accepted by all that having 10 control rooms is no longer suitable or appropriate, but what the final number will be and where they will be located will be for Police Scotland and union representatives.

Can the cabinet secretary tell us how the new Police Scotland will help in the policing of common riding events across southern Scotland? Can he confirm my understanding that there is no charge for policing such community events?

Kenny MacAskill

My understanding is that the police have participated greatly in those because they see the benefits to the community and many of them live in the communities in which they serve. I think that the member will find that Police Scotland will make no changes there. The police are there to serve and not to operate as a business. That is a matter that we have always made clear in Scotland.


Rural Affairs and the Environment

Question 1 has not been lodged and an explanation has been provided by Jenny Marra.


Regional Parks (Financial Model)



2. To ask the Scottish Government whether consideration has been given to using a financial model for regional parks based on that used for national parks. (S4O-02206)

The Minister for Environment and Climate Change (Paul Wheelhouse)

Especially in this year of natural Scotland, our three regional parks and two national parks have an important role to play in encouraging people to enjoy the outdoors.

Our regional parks are important areas of countryside in a regional context because they provide opportunities for outdoor recreation alongside farming and other land uses and they are easy to reach from Scotland’s urban areas. Our two national parks, on the other hand, have been designated by Parliament as areas of the highest national value for their landscape, wildlife and cultural heritage, and they are internationally recognised visitor destinations. The national park authorities are accountable to Scottish ministers, and the collective management of the national parks contributes directly to the achievement of Scottish Government outcomes.

The Government has no plans to use a financial model for regional parks based on that used for national parks. I refer Mr Keir to an answer that I provided on 30 January 2013, when I confirmed that the Government has no plans to redesignate regional parks as national parks.

Colin Keir

Given the financial pressures on local authorities to maintain and manage regional parks, will the Scottish Government consider investigating the possibility of a more sustainable form of management and financial governance, with a view to easing pressure on local authorities and park management teams?

Paul Wheelhouse

As I am sure the member will acknowledge, Scottish Government finances are also under pressure as a consequence of the United Kingdom Government’s spending decisions.

I sympathise with Colin Keir’s clear desire to support the regional parks, but in 2013-14 the Scottish Government is providing local government in Scotland with more than £10.3 billion of support. The vast majority of that funding, including the funding for regional parks, is provided by means of a block grant. Following the concordat, Scottish Natural Heritage funding that was previously provided to local authorities in respect of regional parks is now rolled into the block grant. Therefore, it is now the responsibility of each local authority to allocate the total financial resources available to it on the basis of local needs and priorities, having first fulfilled its statutory obligations and the jointly agreed set of national and local priorities, including the Scottish Government’s key strategic objectives.


Protected Sites



3. To ask the Scottish Government how many of the country’s protected sites are in favourable condition. (S4O-02207)

Some 78.1 per cent of protected features on Scotland’s designated nature sites are in favourable condition, as published on the Scotland performs website on 17 May.

Mike MacKenzie

I thank the cabinet secretary for that answer, which it is encouraging to note. Clearly, overgrazing and invasive species are the main challenges to conditions improving from unfavourable to favourable. Native and non-native invasive species can have a detrimental effect on important habitats and can ultimately change the ecology of the habitat. What action can the Scottish Government take to ensure that the proportion of natural features that are in favourable condition continues to rise?

Richard Lochhead

Mike MacKenzie is right that the most significant causes of unfavourable condition are overgrazing by sheep and deer, and invasive species such as various plant species. The member might be aware that, as part of the Scotland rural development programme, we have a number of instruments that provide funding to land managers to try to tackle some of those issues. The SRDP is certainly the major funding stream to support work to keep sites in favourable condition and to help with their management. Also, a range of legislation is in place with regard to non-native species and other matters. We keep a close eye on the issue but, as the member welcomed, the trend in the number of sites in favourable condition is going in the right direction, and we will continue to try to push it upwards.


Biodiversity



4. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on the “State of Nature” report and the challenges it contains to prevent further loss of biodiversity. (S4O-02208)

The Minister for Environment and Climate Change (Paul Wheelhouse)

As I stated when I spoke at the Edinburgh launch, we welcome the “State of Nature” report, which provides a valuable contribution to our understanding of the environment. It is clear from the report that we have success stories to tell, such as Scotland being home to almost 60 per cent of all known European species of mosses and liverworts, including the Scottish beard moss, a species that is found nowhere else on earth except the permanently wet rocks of the mountains of western Scotland.

The report also highlights warnings for us to heed, such as the decline in five out of 12 of our seabird species. Our biodiversity is under threat from climate change, loss of habitats and change in land management practices. We recognise the importance of protecting and enhancing our natural environment and we are committed to working with our partners, including environmental non-governmental organisations, to that end.

Kenneth Gibson

I have a unique species in my constituency—the Catacol whitebeam, on the Isle of Arran. According to the “State of Nature” report, the reasons for the decline of animal and plant species are “many and varied”. Clearly, we all have to play our part in stemming the decline in Scotland’s wildlife. What is the Scottish Government doing to encourage the public to take practical action to protect wildlife through conscientious gardening and land management?

Paul Wheelhouse

The Scottish Government is keen to support individuals and communities to garden in ways that benefit biodiversity. Last week, I visited the gardening Scotland show, which is Scotland’s biggest gardening show, with about 40,000 visitors. The Scottish Government supports a living garden area at the show, and the theme of this year’s garden was the year of natural Scotland. Thanks to the hard work of Sheila Filsell and some of the students from Elmwood College, which is part of SRUC—Scotland’s rural college—the area not only won a silver medal but was successful in attracting visitors into the area, where Scottish Natural Heritage and environmental charities had stalls and information ready to encourage them to undertake wildlife-friendly gardening. SNH also supports the garden for life forum, which provides a variety of information for gardeners. Information is available on its website at www.gardenforlife.org.uk.

The report highlights the decline in seabird species such as the Arctic skua nesting in Scotland. What specific action can ministers take on seabirds?

Paul Wheelhouse

As part of the marine protected areas network, we are considering covering areas that provide sand eels to seabird populations. As I am sure the member is aware, there are difficulties with trying to pinpoint areas that benefit specific species of seabirds. We are, for example, trying to look after black guillemots. We are also trying to protect habitats for sand eels, which are a key food source for our seabirds.


Land Reform Review Group



5. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the work of the land reform review group. (S4O-02209)

The Minister for Environment and Climate Change (Paul Wheelhouse)

The land reform review group’s interim report was given to ministers on 10 May and published on 20 May, which concluded phase 1 of the group’s work. A phase 2 planning meeting was held on 28 May, which identified a range of workstreams to take forward in phase 2. The review group is due to make its final report to ministers in April 2014, at the end of phase 3. The chair of the review group, Alison Elliot, will speak to the Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee on 26 June.

John Finnie

The day after the publication of the land reform review group’s interim report, the group’s chair, Dr Alison Elliot, addressed the annual general meeting of Scottish Land & Estates—the lairds. Professor Jim Hunter says that Scotland retains the

“most concentrated, most inequitable, most unreformed and most undemocratic land ownership system in the entire developed world”,

while Scottish Land & Estates tells us that it remains

“disappointed at the persisting view that the pattern of land ownership in Scotland is unfair and unjust”.

Question.

John Finnie

When tenant farmers still have no right to buy their farms and are reluctant to speak out for fear of repercussions from the very lairds to whom I referred, what can the Scottish Government do quickly to show the country that it has not abandoned its historical campaigning zeal on another important issue?

Paul Wheelhouse

I assure the member that, in the course of today’s debate, I will set out more clearly our intentions regarding the on-going work of the land reform review group and our continued ambition for bold and radical land reform.

The land reform review group has made a number of recommendations that aim to rectify some of the difficulties that we face in terms of existing community right-to-buy provisions, which, as I am sure that the member is aware, do not operate fully satisfactorily in many cases. Indeed, through the community empowerment and renewal bill, we will seek to extend the provisions in respect of urban right to buy.

I will, hopefully, provide the member with more detail later today.

Rob Gibson (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)

Can the minister assure me that my constituents in crofting communities, many of whom are frustrated hereditary tenant farmers, will see housing land, new-start farms and crofts benefiting from the work of the review group in the final phase, which comes around next spring? They want to see many more people being able to live on the land, and that seems to be the best route forward in that regard.

Paul Wheelhouse

I share the member’s concerns. We need to be able to demonstrate to communities that the land reform agenda will help to deliver their economic and social aspirations and will help to sustain some of the most fragile communities that we have in Scotland.

As I said, I hope this afternoon to be able to set out clearly our sense of the direction of travel in that regard.

Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)

Does the minister agree with Jim Hunter that the Government should be directly involved in the work of the review group? Will he consider increasing the number of members of the group from the current three in order to address the concern that the group has insufficient expertise to address some of the most complex issues?

Paul Wheelhouse

Phase 2 of the review will involve a lot of detailed work, and will take forward in greater depth work on the issues that have been covered in phase 1. We commit to resourcing the group to be able to provide the advice that we seek on these areas. Later this afternoon I will set out in more detail exactly what we are doing in response to the land reform review group’s major work programme. I hope that that will satisfy the member.

Question 6 has been withdrawn and an explanation has been provided.


Red Meat Levy



7. To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with the United Kingdom Government on repatriating red meat levy income. (S4O-02211)

The Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment (Richard Lochhead)

I most recently raised that issue with the UK Government’s Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs at a ministerial meeting on 20 May, when I once again set out the case for the repatriation of more than £1.4 million a year of red meat levy income.

Despite wide support from many sections of Scottish agriculture, the UK Government continues to ignore our well-reasoned case and instead protects the interests of its own red meat sector at Scotland’s expense. However, I will continue to press Scotland’s case and seek a resolution to this long-running injustice.

Nigel Don

I thank the cabinet secretary for his response, although not for its content.

Scotland can rightly claim to have the best red meat production in the world. However, the short-changing of this country by the UK Government plainly reduces the marketing opportunities for the final product. Does the cabinet secretary see any short-term resolution of this impasse?

Richard Lochhead

I guess that it depends on the definition of “short-term”. I recommend that all livestock producers vote yes in next year’s referendum. That will, perhaps, provide the quickest resolution to the issue, because it will guarantee that all the red meat levy that is raised in Scotland thereafter will stay in Scotland, which is the outcome that I believe all red meat producers in this country want.

In the meantime, I understand that UK ministers are attending the Royal Highland Show later this month. I urge them to bring with them some good news for Scotland’s livestock producers and to say that they recognise the very strong case that has been put by our livestock producers that the levy that is paid on an animal that is born and reared in this country should promote Scottish produce, and not produce from other parts of the UK. That would be the only fair and reasonable solution to the dispute. I hope that the ministers will, when they attend the show later this month, bring the good news that they acknowledge the case, and that the levy that is raised in Scotland will stay in Scotland.


Report on Proposals and Policies



8. To ask the Scottish Government when it will publish its final second report on proposals and policies. (S4O-02212)

The precise timetable for publication has not yet been confirmed, but it is our aim to lay the final report prior to the summer recess, if a suitable parliamentary slot can be found.

John Pentland

Industry, non-governmental organisations and the public would like to know whether the final version will move from the wishful thinking of proposals to a proper plan that is based on policies, adequate funding, appropriate timescales for action, and incentives to achieve the transformational change, particularly in housing and transport sectors, that was identified by the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee.

Paul Wheelhouse

I recognise the concern that has been expressed by stakeholders about the residential and transport sectors, as John Pentland said. We do not have specific sector targets in RPP2 as it is currently structured—as the member is no doubt aware—and there is no requirement in statute for us to have them.

However, we do try to address particular themes across RPP2. All sectors of the economy are expected to make a contribution. The Government is keen to ensure that, across areas such as sustainable travel and transport, we do as much as we can. I know that Keith Brown, my colleague and Minister for Transport and Veterans, has been having discussions with groups about cycling and other matters in order to take forward plans for low-carbon transport.

I hope that Mr Pentland will, when the document is published, be happy that we have improved its clarity, which I know was a concern that many people had, and that we have done as much as we can to indicate with a great deal of confidence that the trajectory that we are on is a good one.

To what extent will it be possible to identify streams of work that need to be done in research in order to implement policies for the future that are related to the challenges that we face from climate change?

Paul Wheelhouse

I certainly recognise that this is an important issue. At committee, we discussed some technical areas that are related specifically to land use and peatlands. We expect that the peatland plan will help to inform our understanding of exactly how far and how fast we can achieve what is currently a proposal in RPP2, which is to deliver 21,000 hectares of peatland per annum. That is just one example, but I take Claudia Beamish’s point, and we will see what we can do to give confidence on that.


Forestry Commission Scotland (Social Enterprises)



9. To ask the Scottish Government what mechanisms are available to the Forestry Commission Scotland for the support of social enterprises. (S4O-02213)

The Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment (Richard Lochhead)

In addition to providing advice on forestry-related matters, the Forestry Commission Scotland is able to support social enterprises that contribute to implementation of the Scottish forestry strategy through its forestry development programme, through the delivery of programmes on the national forest estate, and through the sale or lease of land to communities, under the national forest land scheme.

Fiona McLeod

I thank the minister for his answer; it was really interesting.

Will he give me more detailed information, perhaps in writing, so that I can help my constituents in Lennoxtown, led by the redoubtable Susan Murray, who are looking to develop Lennox forest, in particular to run an aparthotel as a social enterprise to go along with the cycling development that the group is considering?

Richard Lochhead

As I said, the Forestry Commission is always keen to help social enterprises that want to promote health, wellbeing and community benefits. If Fiona McLeod feels that the project in her constituency—which sounds very interesting, so I am keen to learn more about it—fits the bill, I am sure that we can send her details and set up a meeting between the Forestry Commission Scotland and representatives of the project to which she refers.


Greylag Geese (North and South Uist)



10. To ask the Scottish Government what action it plans to take to control the population of greylag geese in the Uists. (S4O-02214)

The Minister for Environment and Climate Change (Paul Wheelhouse)

The Scottish Government and Scottish Natural Heritage support crofters and farmers on the Uists in minimising the impact of greylag geese through a number of schemes and initiatives, as well as through direct practical assistance. That includes the introduction of a pilot project on the Uists to develop adaptive management methods for the control of resident greylag geese, supported by £37,000 of funding over three years. Scottish Natural Heritage is also examining ways in which it can use powers that are available to it to permit the limited sale under licence of wild goose carcases arising from the pilots. In those ways, we are seeking to achieve a balance between our conservation obligations and the needs of sustainable agriculture.

Rhoda Grant

The minister will be aware that the numbers of geese are extremely large and that if the shooting is to have any impact, it will have to be carried out professionally. Has he given consideration to any other means that might hamper breeding and control numbers?

Paul Wheelhouse

We are certainly trying, through the national goose management group, to identify ways in which we can be as effective as possible in managing pressure points where balances have to be struck between conservation and the needs of agriculture. I would certainly be interested to hear any ideas that Rhoda Grant has on measures that might, based on local knowledge, work in the Uists. We are trying to work with our stakeholders, including RSPB Scotland, to identify non-lethal methods to control the numbers where possible, but unfortunately some cases have had to involve adaptive management, which is the approach that we are taking in the Uists at this stage.