Asylum Seekers and Refugees
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2377, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on asylum seekers and refugee integration, and two amendments to that motion.
Just last month, we debated the issue of asylum seekers and refugees at Paul Martin's instigation. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this important and sensitive issue in more depth today. In light of current world affairs, it is clear that the refugee situation is not going to ease.
The UK—and Scotland as part of the UK—has a part to play in welcoming and supporting those who are fleeing oppression and persecution. It is worth remembering that some of that terror and persecution is beyond the scope of our experience and understanding. We have a long and proud tradition of welcoming asylum seekers to our country and I believe that everyone in the chamber wants that to continue.
It is clear, as I have seen at first hand, that a significant amount of good work is going on in communities. However, that does not mean that we can be complacent. The difficulties encountered in communities that are welcoming asylum seekers are complex and multifaceted. The challenges of integrating refugees and supporting asylum seekers require a co-ordinated range of responses. As a result, it is critical that we work together, in partnership with local authorities, voluntary organisations and the communities themselves to achieve that aim. We must draw upon the extensive good work already under way, share experiences and learn from our mistakes.
The tragic events at Sighthill have acted as a catalyst for reconsideration of the situation of asylum seekers and refugees within Scotland and indeed the UK. Since then, a dedicated unit has been set up in the Executive to develop our responsibilities for the devolved aspects of the issue. The unit will primarily have a co-ordination role to ensure that services such as health, education, police and social work are able to support new arrivals, as well as maintain their existing standard of service for the resident population. I will say more about each of those services later.
It is also essential that we have effective liaison with colleagues in Whitehall on reserved aspects of immigration and asylum policy. To that end, I have already had discussions with George Foulkes, the Minister of State at the Scotland Office, and Lord Rooker, who has ministerial responsibility for asylum seekers and refugees at the Home Office.
As members will be aware, David Blunkett made a statement in the House of Commons on Monday. That statement represents an important step in the development of UK policy on asylum seekers and sets out a comprehensive package. The proposals have a number of implications for Scotland, which we are clarifying and pursuing as we continue to work closely with our counterparts in Whitehall to influence the shape of the white paper.
I very much welcome the package of measures that the Home Secretary announced. We have all heard horror stories of the wrong people arriving off coaches in Glasgow with the wrong information to hand and, as a result, the necessary support services are not readily available. The establishment of induction centres to ensure that asylum seekers have a complete assessment of all their needs before being dispersed will ensure that such situations will not be repeated.
I note that the minister welcomes the package of measures that Mr Blunkett introduced. However, was the minister consulted on those measures, and if so, when?
If Kenny Gibson had been listening, he would know that I have had discussions with George Foulkes and Lord Rooker. If he will let me continue, he will find out how they have taken on some of the concerns that have been expressed, not just by the Executive, but by the Parliament.
Many people are concerned about the impact that the Home Secretary's statement will have on areas such as Glasgow, which has been at the forefront of welcoming asylum seekers to Scotland. Let me be quite clear: dispersal stays. For the national asylum support service, it is business as usual. Glasgow City Council's contract remains, and I encourage other local authorities to share the responsibility by welcoming asylum seekers to their areas.
I also welcome the progressive removal of the voucher system. Not only was the system stigmatising and degrading; the benefit was paid at a very low level. That has now been uprated, and I welcome the increase in cash from £10 to £14, which is what was previously paid. The smart cards will also provide for automated cash transactions. That will start to address the situations that we have heard about, in which no change was given to asylum seekers and they lost the benefit of their voucher. The card may also be used more imaginatively in future, as a way of accessing other support. We will feed in members' views to Whitehall.
Will the minister give way?
I will make further progress and then take an intervention.
We will also be interested to learn from the outcome of the pilot accommodation centres—a model that is used successfully throughout Europe. Three centres will be trialled, with a comprehensive range of services provided on site. That is clearly a much more robust and useful measure than simply abandoning asylum seekers, on their arrival, to substandard bed-and-breakfast accommodation, which is what is happening in the south-east of England.
I am especially delighted that the Home Secretary has responded positively to representations from the Scottish Executive and others that immigration appeals should be heard in Scotland. As the Home Secretary said:
"The system should be geared effectively towards ensuring that we take the service out; that is what we are doing in the appeals and support process in Scotland".—[Official Report, House of Commons, 29 October 2001; Vol 373, c 636.]
Overall, the Home Secretary has put together a robust package that strikes the right balance between treating asylum seekers with dignity and respect and speeding up the process.
In taking our work forward, I gave a commitment during the previous debate to adopt best practice and to develop an action plan. However, before doing so it is important for us to listen and learn. I have had the opportunity to meet a number of key people, from asylum seekers in Sighthill and throughout Glasgow to representatives of the statutory agencies, including Glasgow City Council and the Scottish Refugee Council. Those discussions are extremely valuable in helping us to build up a true picture of what is happening on the ground—where the strengths and weaknesses are—and how we can develop a sustainable strategy for the future.
Does the Home Secretary's statement about induction centres and accommodation centres apply only to future asylum seekers or to any of those in Scotland, such as those who are presently in Sighthill? It would be a great help if the minister could tell us what the position is.
I shall make a distinction between the two. Induction centres are for asylum seekers on arrival, so that we get the mix of services right before dispersal. The accommodation centres that the Government intends to trial will be part of the dispersal process: they will be the second stage, after induction. Clearly, there needs to be a long-term mix of facilities, and the Home Secretary has made it clear that he wants to learn from what works, in the interests of both a speedy process and the asylum seeker.
If we are to achieve the successful integration of refugees into our towns and cities, it is essential that there is broad ownership of the agenda. We will achieve that by working closely with the Scottish Refugee Council, local authorities and others to build dialogue with asylum seekers, refugees and their host communities.
In addition, I am pleased to announce the establishment of the Scottish refugee integration forum, which I will chair. Its remit will be to consider all matters required to assist refugees to integrate into life in Scotland; to feed into the national refugee integration forum, based on experience in Scotland, ways in which the UK Government strategy that is set out in the document "Full and equal citizens" might be developed and improved over time; to collect and disseminate good practice from around the country; to play a key role in promoting positive images of refugees as members of our society; and to make recommendations, in partnership with the Scottish Executive and in consultation with the wider public and voluntary sector interests, on the action necessary to enable the successful integration of refugees in Scotland and to provide more accessible, co-ordinated and good-quality services.
I endorse and welcome the moves towards greater integration. However, does the minister accept that the criticism that has been levelled by a couple of the agencies that are responsible for integration—Strathclyde police and Greater Glasgow Primary Care NHS Trust—is that they do not receive specific funding in relation to the increased responsibilities that they have as a result of the presence of asylum seekers? Does the minister agree that it is time to recognise that there should be increased specific funding in order that already strained budgets are not strained even further by those extra burdens?
I will come to the contribution of the police and the health service, which has been tremendous, later in my speech. I understand that applications for additional assistance from Strathclyde police and Greater Glasgow Primary Care NHS Trust have been received by the Executive and are in the process of being considered. Hopefully, there will be an outcome shortly.
To be members of the core group of the new Scottish refugee integration forum, we intend to invite Sally Daghlian, who is the chief executive of the Scottish Refugee Council; Professor David Walsh, who is the dean of the health faculty at Glasgow Caledonian University, chair of the National Refugee Forum and fellow trustee of the Scottish Refugee Council; and a representative from the Commission for Racial Equality. Additional members with expertise in issues relating to refugees will be invited to participate. Central to their work will be on-going dialogue with refugees themselves.
In addition, the Executive has already taken direct action aimed at helping communities under stress in Glasgow. When the First Minister and I visited Sighthill in Glasgow on 19 September, we announced a funding package of £700,000 to the city's social inclusion partnerships, channelled through the Glasgow alliance.
Will the minister assure the organisations and asylum seekers in my constituency, where many asylum seekers are housed in areas that could be described as areas of deprivation, but which do not make up part of a SIP, that they will not be neglected when funding and other support is given to asylum seekers in Glasgow?
I want to put on record my tribute to the work that is being done in Maryhill, where a number of the voluntary sector organisations in particular provide a warm welcome for asylum seekers. I can tell the member that Glasgow City Council has decided to provide additional funding—to the sum of £20,000, I believe—for non-SIP areas, which include Maryhill, Pollokshaws and Govanhill.
The extra resources will be used to increase provision for the community in child care, advice and support, language development, community integration and translation and interpretation services. They will be used to benefit the whole community as well as asylum seekers and refugees across the city.
I am sure that all those activities will lead to improvements in the quality of life in communities across Glasgow. We must find ways of bringing people together and of breaking down any barriers which might separate them. That process has already started in Glasgow—it was started by people in communities such as Sighthill, Pollok, Toryglen and Castlemilk.
Police forces across Scotland, particularly in Strathclyde, are working hard to provide reassurance and advice to our asylum seeker community in response to racist incidents and wider community tensions. Many established lines of communication have been enhanced and new partnerships have been forged and developed with local resident groups as well as with asylum seekers. I pay tribute to the work of Strathclyde police.
Racist attacks on individuals, organisations, premises or groups have no place in Scotland in the 21st century. We have made it clear that those attacks will not be tolerated The police will continue to monitor the situation and are fully prepared and ready to respond.
We must create an environment where racism does not exist. That is what we are seeking to do by introducing our forthcoming anti-racism campaign. In recent months we have carried out a wide-ranging consultation exercise with many different groups of people throughout Scotland to get their perceptions of and concerns about racism in Scotland. The results were startling and in some cases they were, frankly, shocking. They confirmed that there is a need to increase quickly our understanding and awareness of the issue. We are now considering the execution of the campaign and I will announce further details in due course.
At a time like this we should be stamping out racial abuse; we should be celebrating the diversity of cultures in Scotland. We must send out the clear message that racist abuse has no place in the new Scotland.
I turn now to two fundamental issues—health and education. Access to good quality health care is a key element of our strategy to support asylum seekers. Asylum seekers very often come with a backlog of health problems, having had little or no medical treatment earlier in their lives. Lack of medical records and history means that practice staff, general practitioners and dentists need to spend a huge amount of time with asylum seekers basically just working out what they need.
All that means that there is a need to plan services in a much more integrated way. I pay tribute again to the achievements of Greater Glasgow Health Board through its primary care trust. It has managed its resources to reflect highly localised needs and pressures. We must learn from the systematic and sensitive way in which it has responded to a new situation.
There is no doubt that everyone in the chamber knows that education is the gateway to opportunity and to achieving social justice. Schools are at the heart of preparing young people to live in a multicultural and inclusive society. Schools and education authorities therefore have a vital role in ensuring equality of opportunity for all of our pupils.
Our duty is to create a safe and inclusive learning environment and a society that understands, respects and values cultural richness and diversity.
I am interested in that subject. As the minister is talking about equality of support, I would like to find out what her reaction is to a briefing from Save the Children, which was passed to MSPs. It mentions the problem of
"insufficient money for school trips, bus fares for activities, entrance money for leisure centres."
The First Minister and I visited a school in Sighthill in which we saw exactly the opposite: considerable support was being provided to asylum seekers' children. There was a good integration package and language development needs as well as wider social and educational issues were being catered for effectively.
I will continue, as I am conscious that I am rapidly running out of time. Children of asylum seekers who are in pre-school education or child care are treated in the same way as other children who are resident in Scotland. At the moment, local authorities have the power to provide pre-school education for three and four-year-old children who live in their area. From April next year, they will have a duty to secure such education either at their own hand or in partnership with other providers.
We recognise that it is important for asylum seekers to be able to speak the language of the country. Many further education colleges have built up expertise in teaching people who do not have English as their first language, so it is natural that many asylum seekers find themselves looking in that direction.
We were pleased to respond to the recent upsurge in demand for language support. We did so just a few weeks ago, with new money to provide for that increased demand, which is helping colleges offer courses and extra support, on top of the record resources that we are already investing in further and higher education.
We recognise that we must take a flexible and broad-based approach, meeting need wherever it arises and not just through the colleges. We are also tackling the barriers that are making it difficult for asylum seekers to access basic language skills. For example, we are introducing further arrangements to provide, through the colleges, extra help with transport and books. We are enabling FE colleges, where they consider the circumstances to be appropriate, to accept asylum seekers on part-time vocational FE courses. For the asylum seekers who are given leave to remain, many of whom bring with them valuable skills and professional experience, the breaking down of those barriers allows them to make a more immediate contribution to Scotland's economy through those skills.
On legal services, there were problems in the past surrounding the so-called "substantive" interview with immigration officials, which has previously been held often in Croydon, but also in Liverpool. I am delighted that David Blunkett has agreed with us and that interviews will now take place in Scotland.
The Law Society of Scotland has taken action to alert the legal profession to a range of issues that must be borne in mind when it provides advice to asylum seekers. As members may recall, Scottish ministers recently agreed to commence part V of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1986, which allows the Scottish Legal Aid Board to embark on a pilot project through which solicitors can directly supply much needed legal services to asylum seekers in Castlemilk and Sighthill. I think that that shows the commitment of the Executive and other bodies to improving the legal services provided to asylum seekers in Scotland.
I conclude by reaffirming our commitment to working in partnership with the public sector, the private sector, the voluntary sector, the host communities and, most importantly, the asylum seekers and refugees themselves. Our joint aim is to build understanding, to improve dialogue and to provide more accessible, co-ordinated and good-quality services to welcome and support asylum seekers and to enable refugees to become full and equal citizens.
Scotland has a reputation as a fair, caring and tolerant nation, with a long tradition of welcoming asylum seekers. We will ensure that that reputation is upheld.
I move,
That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's commitment to work in partnership with the public, private and voluntary sectors to welcome and integrate asylum seekers and refugees to Scotland and further welcomes the Executive's commitment to build improved dialogue with asylum seekers and refugees and host communities and, through partnership working, enable the provision of more accessible, co-ordinated and good quality services, protection from the threat of racist attacks and harassment, and the sharing of good practice to assist the integration of refugees.
Several members whom I would expect to speak in the debate are not showing on my screen. If members wish to participate, they should press their request-to-speak buttons now.
As the Minister for Social Justice has just said, we have a tradition of welcoming to our country and into our communities people from around the world—indeed, I myself am a product of that tradition, as are many others in the chamber. We should not forget that, in the course of our country's history, although long ago, we have also suffered repression and forced emigration to other shores. We, from this country, were indeed asylum seekers. From time to time, it has been the unfortunate position that people who have come to live here have been fleeing repression or mistreatment in other nations. We have been a safe haven to which they have turned in their time of need.
We in Scotland have been very lucky, in that many of those who have come to our shores have chosen to remain here and have enriched our society and culture. We still have space. Scotland is not full up. We know that our population is falling and that we are heading for a skills shortage, which can in some way be met through continuing our tradition of welcoming new Scots who have the skills that our society requires.
A short time ago, an English Tory MP said that Britain was in danger of becoming a mongrel nation. There was uproar and calls for that MP's resignation; there was outrage that he should be saying such things. I also remember William McIlvanney telling a rally in Glasgow that Scotland was a mongrel nation. He was cheered for that, because the Scots in the audience were—and are—happy that we are indeed a mongrel nation, with the benefits to all of us that that brings.
We should strive to accept our fellow human beings into our midst and to treat all as we would want to be treated. Similar sentiments were expressed in this chamber at the official opening of the Parliament in 1999:
"That man to man, the world o'er
Shall brithers be for a' that."
That is a fine aspiration which we should be at the forefront of promoting.
For that reason, I want today to praise the work that the Executive and this Parliament have done recently. It is true that ministers were initially reluctant to act against the dictates of Westminster, but once they were on their way they went willingly enough. The work that has been done recently in Glasgow is a testament to the Scots attitude that I mentioned a few moments ago. One indication of that attitude was the appointment of Jackie Baillie as minister with special responsibility for asylum seekers, which indicated that this country was prepared to do whatever it can to aid and assist those who are forced to flee their countries. I congratulate the minister on her appointment and the First Minister on having the courage to insist that this post was needed in Scotland.
Because of Jackie Baillie's appointment, we have now begun to take steps to deliver at least a semblance of social justice to asylum seekers in Scotland. I welcome the funding for a law centre to help asylum seekers in Glasgow, the funding for language skills and services, the extra money that has been made available to social inclusion partnerships and today's announcement of the Scottish refugee integration forum. We all know that much of the work should have been done before the asylum seekers arrived in Scotland, but it is being done now. My SNP colleagues and I welcome the work that is being done to integrate asylum seekers into the host communities. It is not yet enough, but it has begun and it is a step in the right direction. I urge the minister and the Executive to continue thinking along those lines and to continue seeking ways in which to help asylum seekers and the communities of Scotland. I know that the minister will do that, because I have faith in her belief in social justice. I ask her to carry it forward with renewed vigour.
As we have heard today, too often this world slips into crisis. Too often we are faced with the sight of large numbers of people being repressed, tortured, bombed out of their workplaces and homes, or subjected to genocide. We must not fail to continue on the particularly Scottish path of social justice and egalitarianism. This country can and must play its part in ameliorating the suffering of asylum seekers and refugees. We can and must stand with the international community in seeking to find homes for asylum seekers. We can and must have an internationalist outlook, rather than the narrow, inward-looking politics of the fortress.
That is why our amendment to the minister's motion regrets the moves made on Monday by her London colleagues. The statement that David Blunkett made on Monday at Westminster suggested a shift into the shadows of insularity and isolationism—a step into the narrows. He made it clear that he wanted to send a signal to people throughout the world
"that the United Kingdom is not a soft touch."—[Official Report, House of Commons, 29 October 2001; Vol 373, c 627.]
That was language straight from the mouth of Ann Widdecombe. Not only was it the language of the dark, but the new policy of the new Labour Government echoes some of the worst fears of those of us who believe in social justice and humanity. No longer are we to be allowed to welcome asylum seekers into our communities. Instead, they will be locked up in camps. I have heard people make the defence that that is being done for their own safety. What an indictment of the so-called democratic society that new Labour is fond of talking about and of claiming to promote.
Does Linda Fabiani recognise that, in coming to the conclusions that he has reached, David Blunkett is acknowledging the pressure that is being put on him by other countries in Europe? France, in particular, has accused us of providing too many facilities to immigrants. I stress that I am talking about immigrants, not asylum seekers or refugees.
I suggest that David Blunkett has spent too much time listening to Tory policies and to the worst of the tabloid press.
Will the member take an intervention?
I welcome the Government's commitment to cease keeping asylum seekers in mainstream prisons. We should be ashamed that Greenock and Cornton Vale prisons have for years been used in that way. The commitment that has been made would be welcome if the Home Secretary were not setting up special prisons for asylum seekers. I know that he says that they are for reception and accommodation rather than detention, but if it looks like a prison, feels like a prison and acts like a prison, it is a prison, no matter what it is called and how much spin is put on it—a prison is a prison.
Where the Scottish people accept asylum seekers into our communities and the Scottish Government works to ensure full integration, the Westminster Government wants to introduce isolation. Where the Scottish Parliament wants to deliver social justice to asylum seekers, the Home Secretary wants to introduce social exclusion.
In the Home Secretary's statement, he did not introduce the stigmatisation of prison alone, as asylum seekers will also be required to carry identity cards, which no one else in Scotland will be expected to carry.
Will the member give way?
No, thank you.
Mr Blunkett wants to call those identity cards smart cards, but they will carry a photograph and the fingerprints of the asylum seeker. These so-called smart cards are supposedly for monitoring purposes, but asylum seekers are being asked to wear a badge to show that they are not part of our country. ID cards are a potent symbol of difference. Asylum seekers' movements are to be monitored and those who carry the cards will have to live in camps. We are in great danger of levering our country away from libertarian social democracy and moving sharply towards the right.
I am deeply concerned about issues of factual accuracy. I simply note that all MSPs carry ID cards.
Would Linda Fabiani care to comment on the fact that Denmark and Holland, both progressive European countries, are following a similar course to that of the UK? Indeed, they set the trail. Why does the SNP constantly need to be inward looking, seeing everything through a constitutional prism, rather than being outward looking? Will the member share with the chamber the SNP's immigration policy?
I will not dignify that prepared speech with any kind of response. I do not carry an identity card. The Executive expects asylum seekers to carry identity cards and to declare their difference and their non-integration to the rest of the country.
Where Scotland would extend the hand of friendship and our Minister for Social Justice has tried to ensure that some measure of human dignity remains with asylum seekers, London would have us treat them as potential or actual criminals for daring to flee persecution. If some poor unfortunate refuses to take their place in one of those camps, perhaps fearing a return to the circumstances from which they only recently escaped, Mr Blunkett knows exactly how to deal with them. He said:
"Those refusing to take up such a place would disqualify themselves from support."—[Official Report, House of Commons, 29 October 2001; Vol 373, c 628.]
Where is the understanding of different circumstances? Where is the instinct to protect human dignity? Where is the determination to fulfil our international obligations on human rights?
Even more than that, the Home Secretary wants to change the process through which asylum seekers can appeal. Grounds for appeal will be limited to a point of law—there will be no real right of appeal—and detention places will be doubled in the centres that have now been dubbed secure removal centres, but that are nothing more or less than deportation centres. I have been to Dungavel and I have seen the barbed wire.
When I first heard the Westminster statement, I felt that a few small rays of hope remained. I was glad to hear that the processing system will be bolstered and speeded up, which should help lessen the stress felt by asylum seekers as they await a ruling. However, that hope was slightly soiled by the cutting back of the appeals process. Some lightening of the heart was also to be gained from the proposal to speed up the integration of refugees after the authorities have ruled in their favour. However, that was destroyed by the move to keep asylum seekers away from communities and by the intention to remove them with the same speed and with a reduced appeal process.
At first, I also thought that the socially divisive and degrading voucher system was being abolished—a moment of true pleasure, but only a moment. David Blunkett, in his statement, suggested—only suggested—that vouchers were going. The man did not state categorically, as demanded by so many of his back benchers, "Vouchers are going." If members take the time to read the explanatory notes to the statement, they will see that matters are even less clear.
We are now 11 minutes and five seconds into Linda Fabiani's speech. Can she please tell us what the SNP's immigration policy is?
This debate is not about immigration policy. The Executive set the agenda. Its motion is about the integration into Scotland of asylum seekers and refugees. Labour members want to change that agenda because they do not like what they are hearing, which goes against the grain of what the Scottish Executive is trying to do. The Executive is stymied once again by Westminster.
The common public perception is that the smart card, which is just as socially divisive and degrading, will be a kind of bank card that can be used in a limited number of retail outlets—a kind of electronic voucher system. It is only in reading the explanatory notes that the reality hits home. Point 6 of the explanatory notes states:
"Consideration is being given to the potential for automated credit transfer and other mechanisms".
It is clear that the voucher system will be superseded by a more robust system, but surely we are entitled to know what is meant by a more robust system. What is proposed for asylum seekers who come to our country?
I know that there are Labour and Liberal Democrat members—even some Conservative members—who believe in social justice and that some of them have fought for the rights of asylum seekers and refugees for years. I know that there are members of the Labour party who want Scotland to play its full part in helping asylum seekers and refugees from around the world. I say to them that they should stand up for their principles and stand up for what they believe in. Some things should be beyond the cut and thrust of party politics: human dignity and human rights are among them. Support the SNP amendment. Demand that the powers of the Parliament enable us to send a message to the world that Scotland intends to fulfil its moral obligations—the obligations that we would face as an independent country.
I move amendment S1M-2377.2, to leave out from "and further welcomes" to end and insert:
"; congratulates the host communities and Scotland's civic society on the steps taken so far to enable integration; welcomes the appointment of a Scottish Minister with responsibilities in this area; notes that the statement by the Home Secretary in the Westminster Parliament on 29 October 2001 indicates a move by Her Majesty's Government contrary to the current direction of the Scottish Executive, particularly in the establishment of "accommodation centres" as opposed to sensitive dispersal and the imposition of "Smart Cards" as a form of electronic voucher for asylum seekers, and calls for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive to welcome asylum seekers and refugees into our communities and to have the power to provide appropriate services to promote true integration."
We must approach the subject of asylum seekers with compassion, humanity and respect for human dignity, especially for those who left their home with the threat of death hanging over them. Some elected representatives are descended from asylum seekers. In my case, one of my direct ancestors came to Scotland to avoid being executed by King Edward I. More recently, many members will be aware of the newsreel film of great columns of refugees being machine-gunned by the Luftwaffe, when the Third Reich was engaging in one blitzkrieg after another. Considerations of humanity played no part in the thinking of those responsible, but some of the worst perpetrators were later tried and executed for their crimes.
Today, we share life in a world in which communications are immediate and in which satellite photography and television have made it harder for outrages to be committed without the rest of the world knowing about them. It follows that those who are genuine refugees should be dealt with sympathetically, speedily and well. As it happens, when Sir Alec Douglas-Home was Foreign Secretary, he admitted from Uganda many thousands of Asian businessmen and their families, who were under threat of persecution from General Amin's army. On the other hand, those who wish to improve their standard of living, who fall into the category of economic migrants, should go through standard immigration procedures.
I will make some recommendations to deal with the imperfections that arise in the present system. Given that some cases are taking more than two years to resolve, that on average less than a third of applicants receive asylum, and that only 10 per cent of all applicants go back to their country of origin, there seems to be scope for much greater efficiency and speed in dealing with all applications.
Will the member give way?
I will give way in just a second.
If the system dealt with applications more speedily, there would be no excuse for thousands of lost files. Remember that justice delayed can be justice denied. I hope that the minister will impress on her colleagues in the United Kingdom Government the need to take a swifter and less leisurely approach. I believe that promises to that effect have been made.
Does Lord James accept that a significant number of refugees are refused permission to stay because of technical problems to do with the filling in of forms and so on? Such refusals are righted on appeal in due course.
That may be absolutely correct, but I am saying that such matters must be dealt with objectively and far more speedily than at present. I do not think that that is in dispute.
My second recommendation is that the voucher system for asylum seekers should go as soon as is practicable. Asylum seekers cannot obtain change for a voucher. At a time when we are trying, as is appropriate, to have integration, many asylum seekers regard vouchers as a form of discrimination that sets them apart from the rest of the community.
Nick Hardwick, who is the chief executive of the Refugee Council, has said that vouchers
"stigmatise and demean asylum seekers, and make one of society's most vulnerable groups even more exposed to potential hostility."
The assurances that have been given on this issue are encouraging. We look forward to speedy progress.
If it were possible for this Parliament to achieve abolition of the voucher system—by repeal or amendment of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968—would the Conservatives support a move by the Scottish Parliament to do so?
I appreciate the point that the member is making but what she suggests cannot be done. This is a reserved matter. It has to be dealt with by the UK Parliament.
However, there are issues that we are entitled to take up, and that leads me to my third point. The minister has already covered it to some extent. Sufficient resources should continue to be provided for the educational and social work needs of asylum seekers. I welcome the work that is being done and the minister's assertion that education is the gateway to opportunity. It is important that the UK Government acknowledges the extra resource pressures that that entails and assists by making appropriate provision when the size of the block grant is considered. I hope that the minister will confirm that that matter is, or will be, in hand.
I acknowledge—because there was a legitimate argument—that dispersal should not have taken place before there had been resolution of applications. Reception, accommodation or induction centre concepts should have been implemented at an earlier stage than they were. Nonetheless, the provision of relevant resources is a necessity.
My fourth point is this: I learn that more than 3,000 asylum seekers in Glasgow will be required, under the present system, to go to Croydon in London to have their applications processed. That is not good enough. The Home Office should have an office not just in Scotland but in Glasgow.
That has been changed. People no longer have to go to Croydon.
Thank you for that clarification. I am most grateful that they will not have to do that. I suggest that having an office in Scotland is not enough; it should be in Glasgow.
Years ago, I had a problem with a pop group. They needed a licence to play overseas and they had to go all the way down to London to get it. I appealed to Willie Ross and he got the system changed so that they could get the licence in Glasgow instead. If Willie Ross could do it for me, I do not see why the present Government cannot do it for the minister. Dispersing a few civil servants should be no great hardship for them. There would be plenty of volunteers for such a posting in Glasgow; and having such an office in Glasgow would enable successful applicants to become established more quickly in the community of their destination. Allowing applicants to go to a local office for processing is less austere and much more convenient and friendly.
Fifthly, it appears from the Chhokar reports that there were substantial failings in the provision of interpretation facilities in that case. Adequate facilities should be provided for speakers of the languages concerned. Obviously, there will be fewer problems with providing interpreters when large numbers of people speak the same ethnic language. However, we are in danger of having minorities within minorities where small handfuls of people speak different languages without immediate access to interpretation facilities. It would be useful to know how many ethnic community languages are used in Scotland as the first language of the people concerned, and to know whether interpreters of those languages are available at present. I would be glad if the minister could impress on her colleagues in the British Government that it will make sense not only for asylum seekers to have access to the necessary interpreters but for the existence of ready access to interpreters to be fully taken into account in the dispersal of asylum seekers.
I notice that the Home Secretary, in his wisdom, is suggesting citizenship classes. However, before he can put those in place satisfactorily, he will need to be certain that the necessary interpretation facilities are made available. I hope that he will consult on that issue in order to take account of all eventualities. If people settle in Britain as British citizens, they should have every opportunity to learn English, with a view to participating fully in our way of life.
Finally, I make reference to the proposed new law to ban religious as well as racial hatred. We want to know whether a specific offence of incitement to religious hatred will protect members of different faiths. We are aware of Martin Luther King's famous assertion that one cannot change people's hearts but one can prevent them from being heartless. The question arises as to whether current legislation is sufficient to deal with all known cases of incitement to religious violence. The onus of proof must be for the Administration to establish that reform would lead to an improvement in the situation. It is essential that, whatever Government is in power, Britain does not obtain a reputation as a soft touch for bogus asylum seekers.
Today, I make several recommendations, the most important of which are that applications need to be dealt with much more speedily, that vouchers be scrapped as soon as possible, that the necessary resources should be provided through local authorities for interpreters and that there should be a sufficiency of Home Office centres to deal with applications. In conclusion, the way in which we seek to proceed is by establishing a civilised, humane and effective system, the hallmark of which is fairness and justice for all concerned.
I move amendment S1M-2377.1, to leave out from first "welcomes" to end and insert:
"reaffirms the historic commitment of both Scotland and the United Kingdom as a whole to provide a safe haven for those who have been persecuted or are under threat of persecution by oppressive regimes overseas; notes, however, with concern that our ability to provide refuge for the genuinely oppressed is severely hampered by the problems associated with our asylum system, and welcomes the movement of Her Majesty's Government towards the policy of the Conservative Party, which will speed up the process of establishing which claims are well-founded and subsequently enable every possible step to be taken to welcome and integrate asylum seekers and refugees to Scotland and grant them the same rights of citizenship as enjoyed by the rest of the community."
I want to begin by echoing Lord James's concluding comments on the need for speed and efficiency in the process, which has been the bugbear for many years. There are problems in dealing with Croydon, such as administrative delays and difficulty in getting through on the telephone or in getting answers to letters. I did not hear much in the Home Secretary's statement to give me huge confidence that that aspect of the matter will change. Whatever view one takes on refugees, it must be fundamental that applications are processed quickly, that applicants' status is established and that we move on from there.
Today's debate takes place in the context of two things: the biggest movement of population around the world since the second world war and the heightened tensions that have been produced by the atrocities in America on 11 September. Both those factors are negative factors in providing a humane, tolerant and welcoming approach to refugees from appalling regimes throughout the world. However, we should also listen to warnings about taking a tabloid, black-and-white view of the many complexities in policy in relation to and management of asylum issues.
John Donne said:
"No man is an Island".
Of course, the United Kingdom is an island and not infrequently has an island mentality. However, every aspect of the issue has strands that connect our society in Scotland to issues abroad.
I recently had the pleasure of attending a multicultural evening in my constituency. It was attended by many people from different ethnic minority backgrounds who are citizens or settled residents. During the course of the evening we discussed many topics and it was immediately evident that the slant that is taken on the war and the allied bombings of Afghanistan is fundamentally different among those who have their origins, or who have friends or family in other countries, particularly Pakistan. My purpose in mentioning that is not to argue the relative merits or otherwise of the air war. I do so to make the point that that is something that could easily polarise opinion in this country, and that polarisation of opinion along ethnic or religious lines creates its own problems, particularly if Governments develop—in an atmosphere of war and fear—any form of intolerance to other views.
It is true that
"No man is an Island".
That means that we must welcome refugees who are washed up on our shores as a result of events in other countries. Some of those refugees might be economic migrants, have political agendas or have come into the UK illegally. However, at the end of the day, all that means is that there are men, women and children who have a desire to get on in the world—we all have that desire—and who want to hold a variety of political, religious and individual views, which is our right as individual human beings. One must be pretty desperate to come into the United Kingdom on the underside of a Eurostar train, in the hold of an aeroplane or in a sealed lorry container.
Liberal Democrats strongly welcome the Executive motion. It might not reach the high points of literary style, but it does set the proper objectives and—more important—the proper tone and image, because the key words in it are "welcome", "integrate", "partnership" and "good practice". I will return to those in a minute, but I would like to say a word about David Blunkett's announcements earlier this week. They are certainly an advance on the discredited asylum system that was operated by his predecessor Jack Straw or, for that matter, by the previous Conservative Government. However, in an echo of Linda Fabiani's comments, I must say that the tone in which he introduced the measures to the House of Commons was distinctly different to the tone and fairness that Jackie Baillie used when introducing the motion. In that context, I welcome Jackie Baillie's approach.
The ending of the voucher system is unqualified good news and is something that Liberal Democrats have called for since the system was introduced, but it remains to be seen whether the replacement smart card will be different. Most people do not pay for their bread, milk and daily newspapers with smart cards. Will there be access to cash machines? Will the cards be just a more modern stigmatising method of support for refugees? Crucially, vouchers are not being abolished—they are being phased out, which means that refugees will continue for some time yet to be stigmatised by them.
The proposed system of induction, accommodation and removal centres—pilot scheme though it might be—is as yet vague in detail. The Liberal Democrats have no strong objection to offering short-term accommodation in induction centres for a few weeks, but I do not share Jackie Baillie's confidence that the arrangements will eliminate the organisational mishaps that we have seen so often, such as people being put on the wrong bus. More significant is the fact that longer-term accommodation centres are a different ball game. They might be administratively convenient, but there are significant risks, which will depend on how the centres are dealt with. The most significant risk is that such centres will become the long-term solution. They might be better than the bed-and-breakfast accommodation that is offered to refugees in certain parts of south-east England, but they will probably not be better than the Sighthill-type provision in Glasgow, difficult though its origin was and bearing in mind the fact that it was a bit of an organisational mess when it was first available.
The real issue is delay—be it six months, 12 months, 18 months or even 24 months—which Lord James Douglas-Hamilton touched on. It is welcome that interviews will take place in Scotland. I am interested to know whether the Minister for Social Justice knows when those interviews will begin and when local offices will be provided. When and if that happens, it will make a significant difference to the set-up.
In order to be helpful, I understand that people are in the process of examining office space as we speak.
That is a welcome development.
It is appropriate, in turning to the role of the Parliament, to join the welcome that has been given to Jackie Baillie's appointment as the minister who has responsibility for asylum seekers. If there is anybody in the Parliament who characterises a welcoming attitude to refugees, it must be Jackie Baillie. Members would accept that sentiment.
One of the themes of the issue is integration. That does not mean tolerance, or talking about "them over there", it means people becoming part of our society in Scotland. A series of things could be done to help bring that about. For example, I heard a good suggestion from Citizens Advice Scotland, which I wish to share with members, who will be aware of my background in that sphere. CAS proposes that advantages could be gained if it was in a position to make use of suitably qualified asylum seekers—being able to speak English would obviously be helpful—and had some resources to back such people up. First, it would build confidence among asylum seekers, who would be doing something that is useful to mainstream Scottish society. Secondly, such people could make use of their particular skills and perspectives by being advisers to people from other countries and who have particular problems.
Thirdly, they would be noticed and be seen to be involved with local communities in Scotland through giving advice to people who are already here. As Linda Fabiani and Jackie Baillie said, many people who come from abroad have significant qualifications. Those people are assets to the country and use should be made of their skills. Citizens Advice Scotland's suggestion is therefore interesting. People who come through the citizens advice bureaux, with their well-established mechanisms for improving people's training and knowledge, will have considerably greater knowledge and more acquaintance with the situation in Scotland and the skills that they need to integrate into Scottish society.
I will touch on one or two matters in the time that remains to me. Issue has rightly been made of the liberating power of the English language, which allows people to play a full part in society. That is right and it must be given top priority. I am not so sure about citizenship classes; such classes have other overtones. However, that issue could be considered from another viewpoint. Citizens in our society who come from other ethnic backgrounds have a natural desire to keep in touch with their roots. In the same way as we have encouraged Gaelic-medium education in Scotland, we should make a case for Urdu-medium classes. That is particularly true if people from immigrant communities and ethnic minority communities are to be encouraged to regard the state education system as their education system.
I have a point about legal services. I have a little knowledge of that subject and have had meetings to discuss it with the Law Society of Scotland and other groups. I welcome the pilot schemes under part V of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1986, but technical obstacles to full use of the existing expertise remain. Use of such expertise is currently limited in Scotland because of the previous non-history of that kind of thing. We ought to make best use of the few non-legally qualified immigration advisers in Scotland and ensure that there are not in the legal aid system obstacles to encouraging those who have an interest and aptitude in this sphere to get involved. There are difficulties in that.
I return to the words of our time for reflection speaker, who spoke in moving and worthwhile terms that served as an introduction to the debate. She spoke about seeing
"walls being built, dividing communities",
and asked where that would end. We in the Parliament must, in partnership with institutions of Government and voluntary sector organisations, bend every sinew to build not walls, but bridges. We must not merely receive asylum seekers, but welcome and integrate them and ensure that they, like all other residents of this country, are treated as individuals rather than numbers, and that they are welcome to play their full part in contributing to the future of our society.
With those sentiments in mind, I beg to support the Executive motion.
We move now to open debate. If speeches are about four minutes long, all members who want to speak should be able to do so.
As the first speaker within the shortened time for speeches, I hope members will forgive me if I do not take the leisurely stroll around the issues that we have had so far. My speech will perhaps be something of a breathless canter and I apologise for that in advance.
This is a serious debate and we have a responsibility to all who are involved to ensure that we focus on how best to deliver proper services and opportunities for real integration in safe communities. I know that many members in the chamber, regardless of their party, want to do that. However, in response to Linda Fabiani, I contend that we do that not because of our Scottishness, but because of our humanity and compassion. It is dangerous to imply that we are motivated by our Scottishness, because we then exclude all those throughout the United Kingdom who are as committed as we are to making this a friendly and welcoming country.
It is also important in the context of our experience to avoid using Sighthill as a kind of shorthand for issues concerning asylum seekers and refugees. We must do that first because the people in Sighthill do not deserve to be characterised en masse as racist and hostile. That is especially so when we reflect on the work that has been done by many people in that community—and by local agencies and the local council—towards Sighthill becoming a welcoming community. I say again to Linda Fabiani that, no matter how much respect I have for Jackie Baillie, that work was done before Jackie Baillie took up her appointment. We do people a disservice if we imply that it was only when we became involved that things got moving. A lot of good local people have been doing a lot of work for a long time, which should be valued.
I make that point also because asylum seekers and refugees are settled throughout Glasgow, not least in my constituency of Pollok. I receive positive messages about an excellent initiative that the local authority, the voluntary sector, the churches and other agencies are taking. In my area, people are working together and are determined to ensure that proper support is provided, simply because they want their communities to be safe for the new Scots who join us, and not because there is anything in it for them.
Does the member accept that although that great work was done by all sorts of people long before the Parliament existed, such work must be backed up by resources? The Parliament and the Executive were a bit dilatory in working out what financial and other resources were required from the top down.
That was not the point that Linda Fabiani made in her speech. Resources are an issue, but understanding the problems would help with directing resources.
I welcome the Minister for Social Justice's agreement to visit my constituency to mark the significance of the work that I described.
We must ensure that our powers are used fully, to the benefit of local communities. We all have a responsibility to concentrate our minds on how we use the powers that we have.
The context has been changed by the announcement on UK policy. I will not rush to judgment on what has been said. It is worth noting that the Social Justice Committee took evidence on asylum seekers' experiences. I am sure that we all welcome the ending of the voucher scheme. Allowing people to work provides more positive opportunities for people in our communities.
Several options are being piloted. If local organisations, groups and people who are involved say that the pilots do not work, we must be open to change. We must have tests. Are decisions speedy? Are we enhancing possibilities for integration? Is support real and consistent? We cannot allow the debate to become entrenched so that when people need change, any change is considered to be a weakness.
I seek reassurance from the minister that the complexities of delivering services will be appraised sensitively in, for example, supporting adults into education, understanding the needs of pre-school children and providing child care. Demands in a secondary school class in which three or four children of asylum seekers are being taught become immeasurably different when each such child speaks a different language. It is essential that local authority funding from the Scottish Executive reflects those demands and is sufficiently finely tuned.
It is essential to build partnership locally with mutual respect. We should acknowledge not only the key role of Glasgow City Council, but the potential role of all councils that wish to share in the opportunity to build a fairer and more welcoming Scotland. We must have a partnership with local authorities, the voluntary sector and agencies, including the police and health services. The hard practical work must be done. Those who do that work must be respected for it if we are to ensure that our hopes of a safe and richly diverse community and society are to be realised.
As Robert Brown said, during time for reflection before the debate Mrs Ravinder Kaur Nijjar of the Scottish Inter-Faith Council made a heartfelt plea for us to "tear down … walls" and barriers between faiths. Although Mrs Nijjar was talking about an increase in inter-faith tension since 11 September, she could just as well have been talking about asylum seekers. How will barriers be broken down by the introduction of the modern equivalent of the yellow star—the smart card? How will barriers be lowered by the forcing of asylum seekers into detention—sorry, accommodation—centres? How will barriers be removed by the exclusion of asylum seekers from communities?
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will you consider asking Kenny Gibson to withdraw his disgraceful remark about the yellow star? We all know what that symbol stands for and the reference is inappropriate in the circumstances. I know Kenny well and I think that he might want to withdraw that shocking comment.
That is not a point of order. It is for the member to decide whether to withdraw a remark.
I will certainly not withdraw my remark. As we all know, the yellow star has been used throughout the centuries, not just during the second world war, to identify some ethnic minorities or people of different religions—as in Afghanistan now. Asylum seekers are being targeted because they will have to carry an identity card that is being imposed on no one else. I stand by my comment.
Is Kenny Gibson suggesting seriously that the issue that we are debating equates with Nazi genocide? Is he suggesting that it equates to identifying the Jewish community throughout central Europe in order to deny them basic human rights that should have been available to anybody in central Europe? Is he suggesting seriously that that is equivalent to what has been announced in the past few days by the Home Office?
The smart card is a way of identifying a group in society.
As I have already taken an intervention from Mr McAveety, I will continue.
Order. The member is not giving way.
Mr McAveety's sanctimoniousness is noted—he could have been a contender.
From the start, new Labour policy has been flawed. Johann Lamont wanted to praise Glasgow City Council, but it is clear that she has a short memory, because Glasgow City Council saw asylum seekers as a commodity—it saw them as a resource to seek money from the Westminster Government that it could use to refurbish some of its poorer accommodation. I had a meeting at the SNP party conference at which Shelter Scotland agreed with me that Glasgow City Council exploited cynically a vulnerable group of people.
Will the member take an intervention?
No. I have already taken interventions from members opposite.
No effort was made to prepare the host community. No effort was made to prepare the asylum seekers. No effort was made to prepare local services. Where were the translation facilities? Where were the trained social workers who would have been able to deal sensitively with issues? They were not there. It was only when difficulties emerged in recent months that Glasgow City Council started to change its tune. Mistakes were made and now, belatedly, effort has been made to rectify them.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton made an important point about clustering of asylum seekers. I spoke to one of the local housing managers in my constituency who said that 40 flats are available in Tarfside Oval for asylum seekers. I suggested that it would be helpful if those 40 families came from the same culture, faith or ethnic group. That would allow them to communicate with each other in their new environment. When the first 27 families arrived, they were found to speak 21 different languages. Clearly, those folk had been bundled on a bus and sent north without any care or interest having been taken in them. Imagine how we would feel if we were put somewhere in eastern Europe, Africa, the middle east or wherever and were unable to communicate with the people next door in a strange society. That issue must be addressed.
Asylum seekers need respect. They must be treated with dignity. The abolition of the voucher system must take place now. Why must we wait until August 2002 for the system to be abolished? The Executive has invested in language classes, education of locals and the integration of locals and asylum refugee groups. However, London Labour seeks to introduce accommodation centres to house asylum seekers away from society. It is also seeking to refuse support to those who do not attend what it calls its induction course.
The Scottish Executive is providing asylum seekers with legal facilities and a law centre. However, London Labour has no plans to introduce similar measures and is intent on continuing its detention policy. The Scottish Executive is also providing hundreds of thousands of pounds of funding to support communities in Glasgow, in particular communities that host refugees and asylum seekers. London Labour continues to see the solution to the asylum issue as being to hold asylum seekers in the aforementioned accommodation centres.
What should we do? We should compile a list of immigration specialists in Scotland who can provide legal advice to asylum seekers. We should ensure that a standard of Scottish legal advice is provided to asylum seekers that will allow help under legal aid in filling in forms and in representation at immigration and nationality directorate interviews. We should provide an independent interpretation service. We must call for the immigration and nationality directorate to set up a base in Scotland so that asylum seekers from Glasgow need not travel to Liverpool for interviews. We must call for a review of the system of detention.
Last, but not least, we should extend from 14 to 28 days the time that is available to successful asylum seekers for obtaining accommodation. Asylum seekers must be treated with respect, dignity and humanity.
I am rather sad to have to follow Kenny Gibson. His comments were totally over the top; they undermined the argument that all of us want to make.
I will be honest—I am not here today to gain popularity. Some of what I will say will cut across members' opinions. However, they are heartfelt feelings and they must be addressed.
Kenny Gibson's derogatory remarks about the way in which the United Kingdom and Scotland accept refugees and asylum seekers were also over the top, as the UK and Scotland already accept such people. His remarks undermine the comments that were made by the French Red Cross and French ministers about the over-the-top reception that Britain appears to give to immigrants. Kenny Gibson should perhaps reflect upon what he said.
Robert Brown talked about the worldwide movement of refugees. According to the Scottish Refugee Council, 13 per cent of refugees who entered the United Kingdom in the past year are from Afghanistan. People were leaving Afghanistan before the terrible events of 11 September and our involvement in that country. There is an old Scots saying: "East, west, hame's best." I am sure that many of those people from Afghanistan would rather live in a place they understand to be home and where they know the circumstances. That is something we should all reflect on after last week's debate.
David Blunkett referred to the 50th anniversary this year of the Geneva convention. The Conservatives identify with the convention and will always uphold it. We believe that we have a moral obligation to ensure that those who flee persecution should be able to find safe havens. That is our starting point and our baseline. At the same time, however, the Conservatives recognise that there must be some control over those who enter our country. We welcome David Blunkett's agreement with us that we must protect our national boundaries and integrity; that is logical in a civilised society. We regret that, to some extent over the past four years, Mr Blunkett's Government seems to have forgotten that ideal. However, we welcome the fact that there now seems to be a determined attempt to come to grips with that.
We have had assurances from the Labour party today, but I ask the SNP whether it accepts that we must have some form of immigration control. Would the SNP abandon such controls?
Will the member take an intervention?
I remind Shona Robison of a recent public meeting in Glasgow, at which she referred to Scotland as a mongrel nation and suggested that we should have an open-door approach to all who want to come to Scotland and the UK. Perhaps she will comment on that.
If Mr Gallie had been listening more thoroughly he would have noted that I said that each application should be decided on merit and not on which country a person comes from. I welcome moves towards a green card system that would separate the issues of asylum and immigration, which are too often mixed up during the debate. I hope that Mr Gallie does not go down that path.
My recollection of that meeting is that Shona Robison was not quite so explicit. I welcome her comments today and I am delighted that she seems to be confirming that the SNP believes that an immigration policy must be in place and that we cannot simply open our doors.
However, we must be realistic about trying to implement the policy to which Shona Robison has just agreed. Only 30 per cent of applications from individuals attempting to come into the UK are accepted. That means that 70 per cent of applicants who have been screened are—or should be—required to leave our shores; however, only 10 per cent leave.
Will Mr Gallie give way?
I am not getting through most of what I want to say.
We have some time in hand, so you could have another two or three minutes.
You are very generous, Presiding Officer. I will give way.
More thorough consideration of the facts might have told Mr Gallie that there is an 80 per cent success rate in Scotland in approvals of asylum applications. That figure might put the issue in a different context for him.
I have been considering the figures for individuals coming into the UK.
I want to come to the issues as they stand in Scotland. I emphasise that I can identify with the words of the Minister for Social Justice. There is a need to provide services when asylum seekers are here. [Interruption.] I can see that the minister is getting upset because I am agreeing with her. As a Conservative, I accept common sense. It makes a change for such common sense to come from the minister. It is necessary to consider the social services that are provided, education, the justice system and all the other services that people need in their everyday lives. That is one reason why I applaud the idea of reception centres. There is a need for people to be inducted into the country so that they can have our culture, benefits system and all other aspects of our society explained to them in appropriate surroundings. David Blunkett's proposals, which in the main go back to previous Conservative proposals, offer a way forward that will bring solace to those strangers who come into our land. We must recognise that and we must help them.
I identify with something that Kenny Gibson said. He said that a batch of 28 individuals who came in represented 21 different nationalities—that is not good enough. One of the benefits of reception centres is that we can bring together people of like minds and like languages.
I see that the Presiding Officer has lost his good will at this point. I thank him for the extension to my time and will now sit down.
It was an extraordinarily generous extension. Phil Gallie was given an additional three and a half minutes.
I am sure that I will be treated equally with Phil Gallie.
Kenny Gibson's remarks saddened me. He must reflect on the fact that he has been accused by Phil Gallie, of all people, of being an extremist. I do not mean to make light of Kenny Gibson's remarks: I will happily take them up after the debate.
It is unfortunate that we have descended into making this issue a political football, which I do not think it should be. It was the same with Linda Fabiani's rambling opening speech. She seemed to decry everything that is being done by the Government at a UK level or in Scotland, without paying any credit. My colleague Johann Lamont has already commented on Linda Fabiani's remark that virtually nothing happened in Glasgow until Jackie Baillie—fine woman and excellent minister though she is—took up her current post. That is a travesty of the truth. I am sure that Linda Fabiani's colleague Shona Robison, who has been working in the cross-party asylum seekers group, will be well aware of that and will no doubt put her colleague right in due course.
Linda Fabiani was making the point that we must be aware that many problems that have been faced by people in communities have been largely ignored. That is where the problem has lain for the past 18 months.
Linda Fabiani is ignoring the debate, as she has not been able to stay in the chamber throughout it.
No one has suggested that everything has been exactly as it should have been. I am especially concerned that the brunt of criticism has fallen on Glasgow. It is unfair for criticism to be aimed at Glasgow City Council. It is especially unfair to impugn its motives for accepting so many asylum seekers and refugees. Where are the other local authorities in Scotland that are trying to share the load? We have heard about the City of Edinburgh Council, West Dunbartonshire Council and Fife Council. I have not heard of other local authorities standing up to say, "Yes, there is a problem here. There is a duty on Scotland to spread this load and we will do our bit."
Mike Watson raises an important point. We all want to see an enhanced dispersal system that is sensitive and offers choice. The concern is that David Blunkett's proposals will not provide that. I was particularly concerned to read in the Edinburgh Evening News this week that the City of Edinburgh Council is set to drop the asylum seeker plan because of David Blunkett's proposals.
I hope that that is not the case. I freely admit that I am not a regular reader of the Edinburgh Evening News, but if it stated that, I hope that it is misinformed. I understand that the UK Government remains committed to dispersing asylum seeker families and that that system will not come to an end. I think that that is a very good thing. It is wrong for everyone to be concentrated in London and the south-east. The dispersal programme has many benefits, and I repeat the point that it is time that other Scottish local authorities faced up to their responsibilities.
I do not want to lose the main thread of my speech, which is the crucial issue of integration. The serious and—in one obvious case—very sad events in the north of Glasgow during the summer highlighted real problems relating to integration with local communities and to communities understanding why asylum seekers were here, what was meant by refugee status and the sort of conditions that had driven those people to this country. However, there is no point in raking over the past. In the months that have followed those events, there have been moves to make it certain that such holes in the net or blanks are filled. I know that much of that work is in progress.
I very much welcome the four separate initiatives that have been introduced to improve integration. The issue is not just about helping asylum seekers themselves; one of the ways in which we help those people is by linking them in with our local communities. That can be done by making it easier to access legal help and by funding English language courses for newcomers to Scotland. When they visited Glasgow in September, the First Minister and the Minister for Social Justice announced very important financial aid amounting to £700,000 over two years not just for the north of the city but for other parts. However, I was a little concerned to hear the minister say in an answer to a question from my colleague Patricia Ferguson that areas in Glasgow that are not social inclusion partnership areas will receive funding from Glasgow City Council. I had not heard that before today. I hope that that money is additional and that Glasgow City Council will not be asked to find it from its existing resources. I am very pleased to see the minister nodding; that deals with that issue.
The final piece in the integration jigsaw is the introduction of the Scottish refugee integration forum, which has been announced today and will be a very important means of tying everything together. As members have mentioned, particularly with reference to Glasgow, about eight out of 10 of those applying for asylum seeker status have their claims upheld and are allowed to stay. As a result, there must be a forward commitment on housing and the various support services that are required after the right to remain has been granted. The work that we carry out now to build all aspects of support networks will be very important in the years ahead. As everyone knows, Scotland is a multicultural society. As Glasgow is the most multicultural part of the country, it is important that the networks that were introduced for previous generations of incomers from various cultures exist for the current waves of refugees and asylum seekers.
I am very encouraged by the moves on integration in the past few months. I am sure that they will result in a much improved service that will broaden the base by involving asylum seekers, refugees and local communities.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's opening remarks reminded me that, after being born in Scotland and then spending some time in London towards the end of the 1939-45 war, I returned to Scotland as a refugee from the bombing of London. I very clearly recall living in an atmosphere of terror and fear. My brother and I were issued with gas masks and had to sleep in cellars in different houses. I imagine that people in Kabul at this time are taking similar precautions with their families.
I pay tribute to Shona Robison and her work in the cross-party group on refugees and asylum seekers. My attendance at the group's meetings reflects not my degree of interest, but my degree of involvement in many other issues that pursue me in my daily work.
One of the big issues that has been discussed this afternoon is the introduction of a smart card. I am in two minds about the measure. Although I understand the human rights objections if the card is described as an identity card, I also see its clear advantages in allowing asylum seekers to access benefits in an easy, quick, efficient and largely confidential way. I am prepared to accept those arguments.
Another matter that has been raised in the debate is the way in which refugees are dispersed. According to the Government's fact sheet, it will be undertaken
"taking into account language clustering and individual needs."
The phrase "individual needs" is the important part of that; language clustering is not enough on its own. Many refugees will follow one another from the same village, and it would be a great shame if refugees were simply language clustered and people from the same village found themselves in different parts of the UK or Scotland. Close attention should be paid to that. Most people in Edinburgh's Italian community, for example, come from the same region, the Abruzzi.
I am concerned by the appeals figures that are cited at the end of the Government's document. It states:
"The then Home Secretary agreed to review the fee level and in January the level was reduced to £50/£125. It was agreed that a team of officials should review the scheme".
It goes on to say:
"The numbers of appeals remain well below the estimated figure. The figure was revised in December from 19,500 to 9,750. The actual number of appeals to date is 3,500."
That may be a matter of concern. If the number of appeals is 3,500 because people are being given excellent legal advice and are therefore not appealing when they can see that there would be no point in doing so, that would be fine. However, if the figure of £50 to £125 is still a disincentive for people who have clear rights to stay here under the international asylum agreements, that figure should be revised.
I want to reflect on why we are here and on UK policy over the past 10 years. It is indicative that this will be the fourth change and the fourth piece of legislation in 10 years. That tells us that UK policy has been unsatisfactory in the past and the extension of where we are now perhaps reflects an ill-thought-out process in the past. The SNP has been consistent. When the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 was before the Westminster Parliament, we voted against it because we thought that elements of it, including the voucher system, would be divisive. That is something to reflect on.
We should also think about where we have come from as a Parliament.
Will the member give way?
I would like to move on.
It is important that we make a distinction between asylum and immigration. The Home Secretary's statement was entitled "Asylum, Migration and Citizenship", and it is a positive step that we are making such distinctions. Nonetheless, we should think about where we are as a Parliament. It was a tribute to the Social Justice Committee that it responded to a petition from the Actions of Churches Together in Scotland, the Scottish Refugee Council and others.
Does Fiona Hyslop agree that when the Social Justice Committee investigated what the petition to which she refers was calling for, we congratulated Glasgow City Council on the work that it was undertaking locally to support people who were moving into the area and that we recognised that the key difficulties related to vouchers and work, which are now being addressed by the Home Secretary?
I support Johann Lamont's point. One of the recommendations in the committee's report was that Glasgow City Council's powers should be reconsidered. We wanted a pilot exercise whereby the council might be given complete control over the dispersal of asylum seekers in Glasgow, which should be welcomed.
I am not sure where we are with the policy of having accommodation centres—centralised initial points—and then dispersal. I would like to know whether, if it were possible through the new system to restore to Glasgow City Council the power to determine dispersal within the city, the minister would welcome that and whether the idea could be lodged as an amendment to the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987. We had the opportunity to do that in June, but that course of action was rejected and the SNP was vilified for somehow creating constitutional mayhem. Some very derogatory remarks were made at that time. Nevertheless, we must think carefully about our responsibility and about what we can do.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton made an important point about abolishing the voucher system. The statements from the Government tell us clearly that vouchers are not being abolished but are being superseded, which is an important distinction. Save the Children believes that the voucher system should end immediately rather than being phased out. When the Social Justice Committee went to Glasgow in December, we said that there had to be an urgent review of the voucher system. However, the minister's statement makes it clear that change may not take place until autumn next year, which is two years after the recommendation was made. If the Parliament had any ambition, we could come up with a bill—whether it be a member's bill, a committee bill or an Executive bill—to amend the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 to restore powers to councils to provide cash. There is a debate around whether cash is what is required. I know that the minister believes that the electronic voucher system would be sufficient, but I am sure that someone who went into a small corner shop to buy a loaf of bread with their electronic voucher card would be seen as being different from other people. The problem would be the same as that which was created by the voucher system.
There is a problem with the delivery mechanism for vouchers. One of the complaints of local councils who, as Mike Watson said, want to embrace this process, is that the vouchers arrive too late and are often sent to the wrong addresses. Such problems would still exist with the electronic voucher system. We should listen to the concerns that we are hearing about whether NASS will provide pre-school support for children.
I am concerned about accommodation centres. When is a detention centre not a detention centre? When it is an accommodation centre. Do we want families with young children to live in such places? When asylum seekers come to this country, quite often they go to where they have connections and contacts. Are they going to be shipped down to an accommodation centre in the south of England instead? There are practical reasons why, although we welcome the movement on the part of the Executive, we are convinced that the system has not been changed to the degree that the Executive was moving towards and that the Scottish Parliament wanted.
Kenny Gibson, a member for whom I have respect despite his affiliation to the SNP, said that Glasgow City Council viewed the asylum seeker programme as a commodity. I have asked this before and I will ask it again: if that were the case, why were the other local authorities not forming an orderly queue at the door of the Scottish Executive's offices?
Will the member give way?
I will let Kenny Gibson answer that point in a moment. I suggest that he should get his facts right, however. It is true to say that Glasgow City Council needs every penny that it can get, but we should be clear about the fact that there is no profit to be had from the asylum seeker programme. If Mr Gibson met Jimmy Andrews, the chief executive of Glasgow City Council, that is what he would be told. I am happy to share with Mr Gibson correspondence that I have on that issue.
I genuinely believe the point that I made, as does Shelter Scotland. As Paul Martin knows full well, the reason why there was no orderly queue of other local authorities is that Glasgow has more empty housing units than anywhere else in Scotland. Glasgow participated in the scheme because, although it would not make a direct profit, the cost of having its houses refurbished would in effect be paid for by the Home Office. I genuinely believe that it was a cynical manoeuvre by Glasgow City Council to get those houses refurbished and that there was no further thought for the community or the asylum seekers.
There is no evidence to back up that claim, but there is comprehensive evidence that that was not the case. I will share with Mr Gibson my correspondence on the issue and perhaps raise the matter again in the chamber. Mr Gibson has made a serious allegation about Glasgow City Council's participation in the scheme. I believe that councillors who were involved, such as Archie Graham, respected the ethos of the programme.
I move on to comment on the Home Office statement. The first point, which is important, is that we asked for a top-to-bottom review of the asylum seekers programme and that is what was delivered. No part of the previous programme was not reviewed from top to bottom. We must address many aspects of that.
We asked for the voucher scheme to be scrapped and, despite Fiona Hyslop's difference of opinion about when that will happen, it will be scrapped. That is the important point that was raised during our consultation with many groups throughout the UK.
We also called for the skills and qualifications of asylum seekers to be taken into consideration and fully utilised. That has been delivered. The Home Office will make a further statement about that in November. The highly skilled migrant entry scheme will give consideration to the skills that are available to us. In Sighthill, architects, highly skilled medical professionals and teachers are able to provide skills to the local community. They should be given the opportunity to do that. The Home Office has ensured that that will be considered.
I take a great deal of interest in this issue—as do other members of Paul Martin's family.
Does the member think that there is a case for scrapping the voucher system straight away rather than delaying for another 12 months?
I do not think that there is any evidence to suggest that we could scrap the voucher scheme overnight. We should further explore the possibilities of doing that, but I cannot see any evidence that would allow us to scrap the scheme overnight, despite the fact that many of us want that to happen.
On the dispersal scheme, I agree with some of what Kenny Gibson said about the large number of houses that are available in Glasgow. The dispersal scheme has been scrapped because of many of the problems that we experienced in Sighthill. Dispersing 500 families to Sighthill because there are 500 empty homes in that area is not a comprehensive or strategic way of dispersing families. I welcome the Home Office statement and its commitment to no longer consider the programme as being an effective way of dispersing families.
Will the member give way?
I must move on as I do not have much time.
Yes, you are in your last minute.
I welcome the review. A number of members have raised concerns about smart ID cards, but I believe that they give us an opportunity to support asylum seekers. Many asylum seekers for whom we have no details of nationality, age or medical history arrive in areas such as Sighthill. Properly developed smart ID cards would give us an opportunity to store that kind of information in the card's chip. Members should welcome that development.
I would like to discuss a number of other issues, but I appreciate that we are short of time.
In view of your constituency, you can have another minute.
I want to update members on the latest position on integration in Sighthill. I thank the media and SNP members—despite Kenny Gibson's comments—for their support and assistance during a difficult period in Sighthill. I welcome the visit by Prince William and Prince Charles. Since that visit, media coverage has given us an opportunity to improve matters in Sighthill. We continue to work on many projects in the Sighthill community, particularly on supporting asylum seekers in the local community.
I ask the minister to provide for professionals to assist local groups in drawing up applications. I have said before in the chamber that a number of groups are severely affected by not having professional assistance with completing, for instance, applications for lottery grants and other funding packages. Will the minister say how the Executive will provide groups with the professional assistance that they require?
The issue is complex and requires not only funding, but commitment from a number of authorities. I hope that areas such as Sighthill can look forward to that as a result of the recent review by the Home Office and the minister's comments.
I intend to make a short speech in support of our amendment. My colleague Lord James Douglas-Hamilton has already made quite clear our position that those in genuine fear and with a well-founded claim should find sanctuary here in the United Kingdom. To believe anything else would be to turn our back on our traditions as a hospitable nation and to ignore our long-standing international commitments under the Geneva convention. My Westminster colleague Oliver Letwin said:
"the provision of a safe haven for the innocent victims of persecution"
is
"one of the highest duties of the British state".—[Official Report, House of Commons, 29 October 2001; Vol 373, c 630.]
Scotland has a distinguished list of people who have come to this country to make their fortune. Their success has made them household names. I refer to the late Sir Reo Stakis, of hotel, restaurant and casino fame, and to Yaqub Ali, with his cash-and-carry empire. There are many more.
Our current difficulties arise partly because of the large number of people who apply for asylum and whose cases are decided by the Home Office.
Lyndsay McIntosh said that the people whom she mentioned came to Scotland to make their fortune. Would she not classify them as economic migrants?
That is precisely the point of my speech.
After their cases have been determined, the applicants may become refugees, but fewer than a third of all applicants are granted refugee status. The process can take a considerable time before a final decision is made and the applicant is given leave to remain. There are accommodation, logistical, financial, health, social and educational considerations that make it in everyone's best interest for decisions to be taken as quickly as possible, so that successful applicants can be resettled swiftly, which will enable them to get on with the rest of their lives. I would be surprised if anybody disagreed with that, with the possible exception, of course, of Mike Rumbles.
Huge complications surround the number of people who wish to settle here and the manner in which they arrive. They do not all come by the same route: some metamorphose through some sort of immigration Scotch mist and settle here without ever coming into contact with any authority figure.
Lord James mentioned the position of economic migrants—those who wish to come to this country to create a better life for themselves. There is no crime in wanting to make the best of every opportunity that comes one's way. I have no hesitation in saying that such a desire is no more than human nature and is as basic as that of any parent who wants a better life for their child. However, that should not confer an automatic entitlement.
One aspect of the dilemma of people seeking asylum who are in truth economic migrants is the chaos and disarray in the system that is suffered by those who have followed the rules, made the correct application and waited their turn. It is simply not fair to those people that the system becomes clogged up by those who claim refugee status without foundation. That demeans the position of people in genuine fear of persecution, who have lived through horrors that we can only imagine.
There is a remarkable comparison between the current position of the Home Secretary and that which we have advocated in the past. Some of the points that we made previously now seem to be finding favour with the Government.
I wish to support the Speaker of the House of Commons, a man of course not unknown to the person who spoke before me. He took the unusual step of commending the Home Secretary for consigning the detested vouchers to a place in history. Superseded, abolished, scrapped—whatever way it is termed, I will be glad to see the back of them.
We support moves closer to our party's position. The system needs radical overhaul to best meet the needs of genuine applicants and to protect our national boundaries and integrity.
I welcome what the Minister for Social Justice said about having meetings with Westminster ministers on the subject of asylum seekers and refugees. I would have preferred the Executive motion to have made some reference to that. Rather than containing just a
"commitment to work in partnership"
with various groups and communities, the motion should also have contained a commitment to work in partnership with Westminster and the national asylum support service. I will return to that point.
I begin by thanking the many groups and ordinary citizens who have worked tirelessly in Sighthill and other areas of Glasgow to integrate the refugees into their community. If they had not highlighted publicly the injustices and unfairness of Westminster's dispersal system, we would not be here discussing once again the plight of asylum seekers. I thank those people, many of whom are voluntary workers, for all that they do.
I will concentrate on two issues: dispersal and the effects of dispersal. I will focus on the situation in Glasgow, because I am a Glasgow MSP and know the Glasgow area better than anywhere else. Glasgow has also taken in most of the refugees who have come to Scotland. The areas to which refugees have been dispersed in Glasgow—Sighthill, Castlemilk, the Gorbals, Maryhill and Scotstoun—have one thing in common: they are all areas of severe deprivation. As has been mentioned, no packages were put in place and there was no communication with communities. Glasgow City Council, to which several members have referred, was given little notice. I congratulate Brian O'Hara of the Asylum Support Project, based in Kelvinhaugh Street in Glasgow, on the hard work that his team does.
Like Paul Martin, I have received correspondence from various agencies and committees of Glasgow City Council. I will quote from a letter that I received from the Asylum Support Project, which will indicate why I think it essential that we contact NASS and Westminster. The letter tells us that the Home Office phoned the council and pleaded that there was a crisis. It said that every bit of accommodation in the United Kingdom was full up and asked whether Glasgow could take some refugees. The letter states:
"We were asked to take one full coach"—
which later became two full coaches—
"a day starting from 15th December. We advised NASS that, in our opinion, the timing for this was not ideal, given the run up to Christmas, but we ultimately agreed to their request."
The letter continues:
"In the main, NASS had not thought their process through and Asylum Seekers were sent to Glasgow without proper documentation and there were indeed initial problems with vouchers."
The letter indicates that Glasgow City Council has had problems with NASS.
My second point concerns the effects of dispersal. We have all heard about hundreds of people—people who are already frightened—arriving during the night, particularly in the Sighthill area. If we are to believe one tabloid newspaper, which I will not name, they were arriving in an area that was very hostile. It is to the credit of the people living in that area that they thought differently. They welcomed the refugees. The tabloid newspaper to which I refer should be ashamed of itself, as it did a lot of scaremongering and bad work. Members have already mentioned the media. Some of the remarks that have been made in the media are not welcome.
I want to be honest about this issue. If we are honest, we must admit that people have been dumped on communities. There was no consultation. No amenities were made available to the refugees and, more important, to the local people. There are empty halls in the areas that we are discussing. I have pleaded that those be opened up instead of being closed down. Community centres should be opened so that local people can use them.
The problem is that we need better consultation—not just with this Parliament and the local communities, but with Westminster and NASS. We must get them to work with us. If they do not, the situation will not be resolved.
I want to clarify something that Kenny Gibson said. He accused Glasgow City Council of being in this for the money. I was convener of the policy and resources committee of Glasgow City Council, of which Kenny Gibson was a member. He knows full well that, whenever Glasgow received refugees, every line of every invoice that the committee sent to the Home Office was challenged. Glasgow City Council had a deficit line in its budget year in, year out because of that. It did not offer to take refugees in order to make money. Kenny Gibson sat on the council's policy and resources committee with me—Shelter did not. That is the truth of the matter.
I welcome the motion, which sets out more humane and civilised proposals for dealing with problems that asylum seekers and refugees experience. As it states, all the policies that we promote from now on must
"assist the integration of refugees".
For me, the first step was to get rid of the voucher scheme. Those who introduced that scheme had a regrettable lack of sensitivity, but I am delighted that steps have now been taken to get rid of the stigma that was attached to it.
We must ask ourselves who the asylum seekers and refugees are, as they include a wide range of people, such as joiners, plumbers, teachers and doctors—professionals of all sorts, as well as those who have few or no skills. The Scottish enterprise companies and the trade union movement—including the Scottish Trades Union Congress—have a role to play in considering how we can retrain people and encourage non-skilled persons to gain skills. We should work with those organisations on those issues. Professional bodies and associations must look at their qualifications systems and agree to accept qualifications from other countries. Surely it is better to integrate refugees into the labour market than into the benefits system.
I want to address what the minister called the second stage and ask her to be proactive about the accommodation centres in Scotland. We are assured that they will be open and that they will not be detention centres. However, I am concerned that the centres were described as being slightly removed from communities, as I am not absolutely sure what that means. If children are bussed from point A to point B and back again, I must question whether that is integration. If English is to be taught, will classes be delivered in the accommodation centres? Again, is that integration? Will women be able to take their children to school, visit the general practitioner if necessary or go to the local shops? I hope that the minister will consider those issues constructively and proactively. Any accommodation centres in Scotland should be used for the purposes of integration, not to set people apart in isolation.
The minister will also be aware that other changes are required. People who work with refugees, including those with whom I worked four years ago when I was chair of the west of Scotland refugee forum, are still concerned about how speedily they must act to find interpreters and solicitors. That issue must be addressed and constantly monitored, as must the lack of speed that is taken when final decisions are reached on whether a person is able to stay in this country. In the meantime, as we are stuck with the clumsy dispersal system, we must genuinely address issues of integration. I believe that the motion does that.
I ask the minister a question. The Scottish Executive employs many people. Do we have any jobs for refugees? Should not we lead by example?
I am the granddaughter of an Irish immigrant. It will be a measure of our success if, at some time in the future, the granddaughter or grandson of a refugee can stand up and say, "My grandparents came here as refugees at the turn of the century. Here I am—a member of the Scottish Parliament." That is integration.
That was a brilliant finish, Trish.
I consider myself immensely privileged to have reached my age without having gone to war, been a victim of famine or suffered for my political stance, other than at the ballot box. The stability of my home, society and family are integral to my well-being. I cannot imagine what disruption to any of those would do to my psyche, my self-esteem or my sense of security and I cannot imagine how I would feel were I transported to live in an unfamiliar culture. Asylum seekers have experienced some or all of those feelings and must attempt to maintain the normality of life despite the circumstances that forced them to flee.
Both the Executive's motion and the SNP's amendment refer to the availability of appropriate services. I will concentrate on health care. I regard the availability of free, efficient and prompt health care as a right for myself and for every citizen and guest, irrespective of whether the guest is a tourist or an asylum seeker. The British Medical Association made it clear that, in the current situation, many slip through the medical net, although I appreciate that the situation is changing. The BMA said:
"Asylum seekers are among the most vulnerable people in Britain. Displaced from their homes, in flight from persecution, often subject to mental and physical violence, they seek sanctuary in countries with more liberal, compassionate reputations. Yet on arrival in the UK their health, already precarious, often deteriorates. And for good reason. The Government's system for the handling of asylum-seekers is not focused on helping but on deterring them. Present procedures are not compassionate but punitive.
Health care for asylum seekers in Britain is patchy, belated and often inappropriate"—
I give way to Phil Gallie.
I come back to the point that I made earlier. Why do those such as the French Red Cross and French ministers accuse us of being far too generous in the way that we accept such individuals?
I am sure that Phil Gallie does not expect me to speak for the French Red Cross, which might resent my doing so. The French Red Cross is entitled to its opinion. When we are dealing with people who are in sad economic and political conditions, I would rather err on the side of generosity than on the side of stinginess. As someone said, we should remember that, at other times in history, many Scots went as economic emigrants from Scotland to other places in the world.
Let me continue with my quote:
"Health care for asylum seekers in Britain is patchy, belated and often inappropriate. The entitlements are there and certainly there are some excellent initiatives. But entitlement is not the same as access in practice ... The UK signed the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees in 1951 ... but it is failing."
I know that Jackie Baillie's intent is good and honourable, but that is the BMA's opinion.
Without commenting on whether my intent is good and honourable, I put it to Colin Campbell that the important point is that the induction centre approach, which allows for an holistic assessment of people's needs, means that there will now be an early identification of people's health needs. I hope that Colin Campbell will join me in welcoming that.
I appreciate that the system is being changed. I seek the minister's assurance—and I know that I shall get it—that better and universal high-quality health care will be available to asylum seekers under the new arrangements. To provide such things is, as Mrs Ravinder Kaur Nijjar said, to recognise
"the whole human race as one",
or, in my tradition, to
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
We now move to the wind-up speeches.
In speaking in support of the motion, I am not sure whether I must declare an interest. In 1468, I think, the Gorries were a minor branch of the large MacDonald empire, living happily in North Uist at a place called Vallay, when they very incompetently got massacred by the MacMhuirichs. I presume that my ancestor could run faster than most of them and so escaped. All of that was confirmed about 30 or 40 years ago, when an archaeological expedition from the University of Edinburgh duly uncovered, in a big sand-dune in North Uist, a nice wee castle with a whole lot of unburied guys lying around who had clearly been massacred. Because the local MacDonald big-wig had an interest in a monastery in Perthshire, we seem to have emigrated and reappeared in that area. I also have an economic migrant great-grandfather, who came up from England to better himself. I personally have examples of why people come to these countries.
It is important that we seek out Scottish solutions for Scottish problems. We do not need slavishly to follow what is happening at Westminster, although Westminster obviously controls some aspects of the whole asylum seekers business. It is reasonable to criticise what successive Governments at Westminster have done or failed to do. It is fair enough to point out some of the national and local failures to deal with asylum seekers properly. We have all made mistakes. It is fair enough to criticise vigorously any of Mr Blunkett's proposals that people do not like, such as cards. However, the hyperbole that we have heard from some speakers does not help. If a member has a good case and grossly overstates it, he or she demolishes that case. I may be teaching grannies to suck eggs, but we really had some prime examples today.
We should seek Scottish solutions to the problems of asylum seekers in Scotland. Various people have said that we must aim for integration. One of the best ways of doing that is to find, as soon as possible, paid jobs for asylum seekers who have qualifications. Voluntary activities should be found for others. Robert Brown made a good suggestion about involving people in citizens advice bureaux; there must be a lot of other organisations that would welcome more volunteers. Some voluntary bodies would benefit from manual help—help to carry things around and so on—so even asylum seekers whose English is not so hot could get involved in a local group and do something worth while. That kind of thing helps people to integrate.
I do not see why an asylum seeker who is a doctor cannot get a temporary job if his qualifications are of a sufficiently high standard. In due course, his appeal may fail and he may be sent away, but I do not see why that should prevent him from being given a temporary job. That idea seems common sense to me and I do not see why there is such resistance to it at UK level. I hope that it may be possible to wangle the rules a bit so that Scotland can deal with things differently, especially, as Robert Brown suggested, in the voluntary sector, where we must be able to do things in our own way. I hope that we can also do things to do with paid employment in our own way.
We must change people's attitudes towards asylum seekers—and perhaps also change some asylum seekers' attitudes. In view of one of my current interests, it may be a good idea, especially in Glasgow, to explain to asylum seekers who are not Christians that they must decide whether they are Protestant Muslims or Catholic Muslims. They would then be able to integrate into society accordingly.
Does Mr Gorrie accept that there are other teams in Glasgow, including Partick Thistle? People should be able to define themselves as Jags supporters as well.
It would indeed be much more sensible if they supported other teams. My example was frivolous, but I wanted to show that there are ways of helping asylum seekers to identify with us and us with them.
I hope that, in a harmonious spirit, we can all support the Executive motion.
A number of interesting speeches have been made this afternoon and I start by saying that I welcome the minister's constructive and helpful speech—I have no doubt that it was sincere. I was touched by her reference to Partick Thistle and her exhortation to people to join us—we are, of course, building a new stand at the moment for that very purpose.
For somewhat different reasons, the Conservatives also welcome the contribution that the Home Secretary made earlier in the week. Somewhat belatedly, he is acknowledging that the Government's asylum policy is a total and abject failure. Who is responsible for the shambles? The shambles in Glasgow is not, as some members have said, the fault of Glasgow City Council, which has made a sincere effort to give assistance. It certainly made some wrong decisions, but in no respect should it carry the overall responsibility. The shambles is also not the fault of the asylum seekers. For once, it is not even the fault of Jackie Baillie and Margaret Curran. It is the fault of the Home Secretary and his predecessor, who failed to recognise the gravity of the situation.
If I were to say that an asylum policy should, in essence, be firm, fair, speedy and sensitive, I think that most people would agree. The policy should be geared towards achieving a quick determination. Those whose applications fail should be required to go home as quickly as possible. Those who stay must be assisted in every way possible to integrate into, to benefit from and to contribute to our society. I think that everyone would agree with that.
What do we have, however? We have a situation in which the dispersal policy has failed and vouchers are discredited. Indeed, there is a general recognition that the Government's asylum policy has failed all round.
The more I watch the situation changing, the more I see the accommodation and reception centre concept being embraced by the Government. The ending of the voucher scheme and the fact that NASS is becoming itinerant seem to be a total vindication of Conservative policy. I know that that would be a step too far for the Government and I do not ask the Executive to accept what the Conservatives say, but perhaps it could accept what the Social Justice Committee said earlier this year. Those of us who were members of the committee at the time recognised that the voucher system was discriminatory, unwieldy and had an adverse effect on the people whom it was supposed to help—the asylum seekers. We recognised that making people go on a bus down to NASS in Croydon to have their applications determined was quite wrong. It is good that, as the minister said, that is to change. However, why has it taken so long? Are those coming from Croydon likely to get a nosebleed when they pass the Watford gap? I do not know. It is urgent that the change be implemented.
It will take some time to change the ill-thought-out dispersal policy. Why were people allocated to go to various places when no thought was given to the language that they spoke? Would it not have been common sense to think that those who spoke Farsi, for example, should be sent to the same place and that those who spoke Arabic or Urdu should be sent to the same places? That is not rocket science; it is common sense.
As we go further down that road, we must recognise that, much as we might like to, there is no way that we can accommodate all those who seek asylum on our shores. At the moment, the world is a particularly unhappy place. Many people face oppression or the threat of death in their own countries. However, many applicants—something like 70 per cent—are seeking asylum in our country simply because they wish to better themselves. As Lyndsay McIntosh identified, that is a very human instinct. However, when the system is as cluttered as it is at present, it is inevitable that we will be unable to help all those who are so desperately in need of help.
For far too long, the Government has sent out the wrong message—that we are a soft touch on asylum. The Government should have been much more forceful with the French, who set up the Sangatte reception centre on the outskirts of the channel tunnel terminal. It was inevitable that that would cause problems.
We are improving matters and this afternoon's debate has referred to the constructive steps that have been taken. However, the odium of the problem rests firmly and fairly with the Westminster Government.
I welcome the debate, but I want to ask why it has taken two and a half years to get round to it and to begin talking about a strategy for integration. I would put Labour's question back to the Labour party, and ask why it is so obsessed with the constitution and what constitutes a reserved matter. It has delayed this debate for two and a half years for precisely that reason. Members of all parties have asked important questions about asylum issues, only to receive the stock reply, "That is a reserved matter." I am happy that we have moved beyond that; I am just sorry that it has taken so long.
When Fiona Hyslop made a practical proposal to improve the dispersal system by giving local authorities more powers in that respect, it was dismissed out of hand as a constitutional ploy. That says more about the mindset of the Labour party than it does about the SNP.
Let us be clear. Our complaints about the lack of action over the past few years are not directed at those who have worked extremely hard in communities throughout Scotland to welcome and support asylum seekers—many of those people provide crucial support. What I am talking about is the lack of action from Government, which has refused to take responsibility for asylum seekers and which allowed tensions to grow in Scottish communities. I find it slightly worrying that the Executive has not accepted those facts. I thought that lessons had been learned, but the complacent tone that some people have taken in the debate is a cause for concern, because complacency is something that we cannot afford.
The recent Evening Times poll, which was depressing, showed that 93 per cent of the people who were asked do not want asylum seekers living in their communities. Clearly, we have a long way to go. I welcome the anti-racism campaign announced by Jackie Baillie, because it is important to send a clear message that racism will not be tolerated in our society.
I take this opportunity to back the call from Mrs Ravinder Kaur Nijjar for an interfaith centre, which is a good proposal. It could provide a place for people to overcome any prejudices and differences that they have. I hope that the Minister for Social Justice will respond positively to that suggestion.
I will deal with some of the issues that have been raised in the debate. Jackie Baillie made much of David Blunkett's announcement of his intention to increase the value of vouchers to the level of income support. While that is welcome, she made no mention of the fact that her Government has left people to survive on 70 per cent of what is regarded as the minimum amount that it is possible to survive on for 18 months. It would have been good to receive an acknowledgement of the failure of the system.
Labour members talked about vouchers being scrapped, but they are being superseded by a smart-card system. The question remains: why is one system that stigmatises asylum seekers being replaced with one that, if it does not stigmatise them, at least does not normalise the lives of asylum seekers? As Robert Brown said, one cannot buy bread and milk with a smart card. Why has there been such reluctance to return to a more cost-effective cash-based approach? I can only assume that the message is that asylum seekers cannot be trusted with money. Why else would the Government implement a system that costs more than a more efficient cash-based system? That is the only conclusion that I can draw. I hope that the Minister for Social Justice will give an alternative reason.
While she is doing that, perhaps she can tell us what proposals she provided in her consultation with Westminster. I presume that she called for the voucher scheme to be scrapped. Did she advocate as a replacement a cash-based scheme, which has been advocated by every refugee organisation in Scotland? I hope that the minister represented their views when she proposed a system to replace vouchers.
Will Shona Robison acknowledge the comments that have been made in the chamber about the positive benefits of smart cards and separate herself from the comments of her colleague, which attempted to associate smart cards with what happened in middle Europe in the 1930s and 1940s?
I first heard that analogy from an Afghan asylum seeker. I agree that we should all be careful with the use of language. That applies also to Government ministers, who year after year talked about bogus asylum seekers, which did little to help the integration of asylum seekers.
I say to the minister that the smart card that will be given to asylum seekers, which will not normalise their lives, can in no way be compared to the card that MSPs carry and are well rewarded for carrying.
I will address dispersal, because it seems that there is some confusion. I hope that Jackie Baillie will clear up that confusion this afternoon. The minister stated that dispersal stays. A few minutes later, one of her colleagues said that he is pleased that the dispersal system has gone. The minister must clear up what is happening to dispersal under David Blunkett's proposals. If the Edinburgh Evening News report on Edinburgh City Council's response is to be believed, local authorities are also under the impression that the dispersal system has gone. Urgent clarification is required.
I welcome the Scottish Executive's belated response to the issue of asylum, but I have severe reservations about the different tone and content of David Blunkett's proposals, and those reservations are shared by Labour members.
I am happy to support the amendment in Linda Fabiani's name.
Like everyone who has spoken, we welcome the debate. It is recognition of the importance that the Executive and the Parliament accord to the issue. That is reflected throughout Scottish society and by local authorities—I had written that down before the debate—most notably Glasgow City Council. The importance of the issue is also recognised by other key organisations and individuals.
It is important that we assess our approach to asylum seekers, particularly this week. The Scottish Executive is clearly aware of the need to have a reasoned debate so that we can match the ability to make proper provision with the aspiration to ensure equity, tolerance and accessibility. It is critical to establish from the outset the significance of the positive work that has been and is being done. It does not make the headlines, but effective work is being done by local communities, local agencies and the Scottish Executive.
I echo Johann Lamont's sentiments about the need for rigorous appraisal of the impact of policies and the need to think about the work that we are doing. I would be happy to discuss with Paul Martin the means whereby we are supporting local organisations through the KickStart programme and social inclusion partnerships. That should give him the reassurance that he seeks.
We will work hard to develop an approach that fosters good practice and shares experience. That can be achieved only through partnership working. Let us hope that today's debate has shown that we are aware of the circumstances faced by asylum seekers. We are sympathetic to the issues and, wherever we can be, we are committed to working towards making Scotland a welcoming and tolerant society.
It is right to seek to identify the areas and ways in which we can do more. After all, it is in everyone's interests—not just the interests of asylum seekers or refugees, but the interests of the whole of Scotland—that we live in a welcoming, tolerant society.
Earlier this week, the Home Secretary announced a substantial package that sets out the principles for the UK Government's approach to asylum, migration and citizenship. We will keep in close contact with the Home Office as it develops its detailed proposals and operational arrangements. Meanwhile, our focus remains on ensuring that asylum seekers and refugees in Scotland—and those yet to arrive—have access to services and support and are free of racist attacks and harassment.
I turn now to some of this afternoon's contributions. I am disappointed that I must strike a negative note, because I did not intend to do so, but I must, because some statements were misleading and confusing. Unfortunately, I must say to the SNP that if it presents itself as an Opposition party, it is not good enough—
Hear, hear.
Thank you.
It is not good enough for the SNP to cast aside questions about its policies. It is incumbent upon the SNP to explain its policies in the debate.
We were asked about our immigration policy, but the Executive has admitted that it thought that it was extremely important that immigration policy be separated from asylum policy in discussion of the asylum issue. That is what I said.
Nonetheless, we still wait to hear what the SNP's immigration policy is, because we can deliver a progressive, sensitive approach to asylum only if we also deliver a realistic approach to immigration. It is time for the SNP to understand that it must come clean about its approach to immigration and give us a consistent analysis of its position.
The Executive is not complacent and it was wrong of Shona Robison to suggest that it is. We recognise the need to evaluate policy. We are willing to listen to those beyond our party boundaries, but the SNP insulted the debate and the Parliament when it indulged yet again in absurd reductionism. We hear that every problem that we face can be tackled only by constitutional rearrangement. Shona Robison says that that is our obsession, but if that is so, why did every single SNP speaker—or if not every speaker, at least 70 per cent of them—talk about the Parliament's powers, without for one minute saying what the SNP would do if it had those powers? The SNP cannot even manage to be a proper party of Opposition, let alone a proper party of Government.
I will address some of the issues that Linda Fabiani raised in detail. Induction centres are intended to help people. Their purpose is not only to assess people, but to support them. Many people have welcomed the centres. Three accommodation centres will be piloted and will tackle 3,000 out of 47,000 people. Dispersal stays. Mr Blunkett has said that the accommodation centres are being trialled and will be assessed. That is a proper approach. Accommodation centres have been established in Denmark and the Netherlands. The SNP is keen to bring European countries to our attention, so I hope that it will pay attention to our approach. I do not believe that Linda Fabiani is happy to condemn people to substandard bed-and-breakfast accommodation. It is incumbent on us to attempt new approaches.
Kenny Gibson outshone Linda Fabiani. He shamed himself and the Parliament with his speech. His remarks were ill judged and intemperate and will return to haunt him, John Swinney and the SNP. Kenny Gibson said that Glasgow City Council used asylum seekers as a commodity—I will check the record, but I think that he used that word. That is an insult not only to the political leadership of Glasgow City Council, but to the council's staff. The SNP said that we were right to link anti-racism campaigns to the work that we are discussing. It should also pay tribute to Glasgow City Council for its work on anti-racism campaigns over many years. Mr Gibson's remarks were inappropriate.
Mr Gibson went further. I will quote David Blunkett's comments about smart cards, because we were on the margins of proper debate on the issue. Robin Harper's comments are worth great consideration. David Blunkett said:
"our proposed card will have a strip to entitle people to the support that they seek and the cash that they get."—[Official Report, House of Commons, 29 October 2001; Vol 373, c 642.]
In a society where cards, with or without photographs, are in everyday use, they will not lead to stigmatisation and could increase access to important services. For Mr Gibson to leap to identify those cards as yellow stars is shocking; it shames his party. I ask him to withdraw what he said—I wonder why he is not present. It is one thing to preach tolerance, but another to practise it.
The Scottish Parliament must rise above that debate. The Scottish Executive has a wider responsibility to engage with groups throughout Scottish society, to continue to work with our colleagues in Whitehall and in Scotland and to work with the private and voluntary sector for the provision of more accessible, co-ordinated and good-quality services.
It is proper that our treatment of asylum seekers is at the top of the political agenda. We want to ensure that Scotland plays its part in welcoming and supporting those who flee persecution, war and famine. We value them and support them in coming to Scotland. We value and will assist the host communities, which have contributed much. There is much work to do and a determined effort to get on with it.