Plenary, 18 Nov 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, November 18, 2004

Official Report 734KB pdf

---

Question Time

---

SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

---

Environment and Rural Development

---

White-fish Vessels

To ask the Scottish Executive how many dedicated white-fish vessels there are in the Scottish fleet. (S2O-4118)

There is no official definition of a dedicated white-fish vessel. Currently, there are 142 Scottish-based fishing vessels of more than 10m in overall length that fish exclusively with demersal trawl gears or seines with mesh sizes that are generally associated with white-fish activity.

Does the minister accept the view of the Scottish White Fish Producers Association that only 120 vessels are prosecuting a mixed white fishery, which is approximately one third as many as there were five years ago? Does he stand by his claim earlier this week that he is not in the game of accepting further reductions in the current 17 days at sea a month in the forthcoming Brussels negotiations? Does he accept that 17 days is simply not enough if we are to keep the fleet even at its existing reduced size? Furthermore, does he accept that haddock and prawn stocks are in excellent heart and that the fishermen have proved to the scientists that they can avoid targeting threatened cod stocks? In that case, should he not be thumping the table at Brussels for more days at sea, rather than simply fighting to retain the status quo?

I will weave my way through the six or seven supplementary questions.

At least they were questions.

I am obliged.

I do not accept Ted Brocklebank's first point. The answer that I gave in good faith is based on the number of vessels that have notified the fisheries department of their exclusive use of category 4(a) gears under the terms of the annex V effort management regime. There is little merit in getting into a great debate about this but, in good faith, those vessels have notified us that they are using that gear exclusively, so it is not unreasonable for us, in good faith, to say to Ted Brocklebank that there are 142 vessels.

On the number of days, I was asked the question to which I responded in the context of whether there should be further cuts. My position on the December negotiations is that I accept the proposition that the science on nephrops and haddock is generally good, and therefore we must be able to improve on last year's situation, when we managed to separate out the previously held view that there was a one-to-one relationship between cod and haddock fisheries. Having effectively established that principle, we must build on it, and therefore we must seek to strike a balance between accepting the need to conserve cod—which clearly remains in a difficult condition—and allowing our fishermen to prosecute the fishery in a way that will give them a viable living.

The minister will be aware that the scientific advice on the white-fish stocks that are caught by the fleet, which was mentioned by Ted Brocklebank, states that the mortality of cod stocks has increased while the mortality of haddock stocks in the same waters has decreased. What conclusion has the minister reached on that advice? Do not the figures show that other factors and fleets other than the Scots fleet are influencing the state of cod stocks, and therefore that the Scots fleet should not bear any more of the pain?

The member refers, properly, to the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea advice, which is supported by the raw data. He will be aware that—as is the case every year—the Commission's Scientific and Technical Committee reviews those raw data to arrive at recommendations to the Commission for the purpose of the Commission coming forward with positive proposals. I am always reluctant to draw conclusions before we have been through at least the second process and have had the benefit of the Scientific and Technical Committee's appraisal of those raw data. I am therefore not in a position to draw a conclusion. However, I understand that, in the next day or two, the review of the data will be available to us all, and that is the point at which we will start to formulate a view on how to proceed.

On whether other issues are in play, Fisheries Research Services in Aberdeen is aware that that is the case and that those factors must be taken into account. It is not a question of singling out Scottish fishermen, and I will be anxious to ensure that there are no moves in that direction in the December council.

Does the minister agree that the total number of boats in the fleet is scarcely relevant and that what is relevant is the fleet's total catching capacity? Does he have a way of calculating that capacity and, if he does, can he give me a figure for it?

There are one or two complicated calculations with which the scientific community calculates the fishing mortality factors in relation to the data. I think that Mr Harper is aware of those calculations, and I would be happy to have my department write to him setting out the bases of them.

Mr Brocklebank's question about the number of vessels was legitimate, but the December council is about achieving a level of effort reduction. At the December council two years ago, it was agreed to seek an overall reduction of 65 per cent in fishing mortality in relation to cod stocks. The reason why we in Scotland are arguing that we have already achieved 35 per cent of that relates to the number of vessels that have been decommissioned multiplied by the formula to which I have just referred, which talks not about vessels, but about fishing effort. I agree that, at its heart, the debate is about fishing effort.

---

Flood Prevention

To ask the Scottish Executive whether the necessary environmental protection has been put in place to prevent flooding and whether it will issue up-to-date guidance to local authorities on the matter. (S2O-4029)

The Water Environment and Water Services (Scotland) Act 2003 requires ministers and others to promote sustainable flood management, both to reduce flooding risk and to protect the environment. We are preparing guidance on flooding issues with the assistance of a national technical advisory group, and that guidance will be issued next year.

Is the minister aware that the Executive is delivering the Scottish Environment Protection Agency a resource cut of £20 million over four years? Will he—or can he—guarantee that that will not have an adverse effect on the implementation and monitoring of the water framework directive, which is of substantial concern to the RSPB?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's concern in those areas is well known, as is that of the RSPB. I assure him that the Scottish Environment Protection Agency will be funded and resourced in such a way as to allow it to meet its requirements. It will, of course, have to set priorities for how it does that, identify the areas in which there is the greatest risk and deal with those areas first with a view to full implementation of the water framework directive in due time.

I draw to the minister's attention the fact that the City of Edinburgh Council is seeking to progress two essential flood prevention schemes on the Water of Leith and the Braid burn. Will the minister assure me that sufficient funding will be in place to fund all the flood prevention schemes that have been identified and will he confirm that local authorities will be able to fund their proportion of the costs through the prudential framework?

Sarah Boyack will be aware that the funding that has been made available to local authorities for that purpose has been significantly increased and now runs at the rate of £89 million over the funding review period to 2008, and that the grant rate has been increased to 80 per cent. At this juncture, it would not be appropriate for me to give a guarantee on any specific scheme, because each scheme that is proposed is the responsibility of the relevant local authority and must meet the criteria that have been set. However, we expect that the available funding will allow local authorities to do a significant amount of work on flood prevention.

I refer the minister to a severe flooding incident that took place just over a year ago in the Borders, in the Bannerfield area of Selkirk. Many houses, which had been transferred from the local authority to a housing association, were severely damaged. As the minister is aware, the Bellwin scheme, which provides local authorities with finances to help with repairs under those circumstances, is not available to housing associations. Given the stock transfers that have taken place, will the minister consider extending the Bellwin scheme to housing associations, so that they, too, can access its funds?

I do not think that that is particularly a matter for me, although it is clearly a matter for the Executive to consider generally. The Bellwin scheme is designed for a purpose. The rules exist to ensure that those schemes that meet the criteria for support under the scheme are the ones that are supported. That is the proper way to go forward.

---

Derelict Land and Property

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to address any negative impact on the environment of derelict land and property. (S2O-4073)

Scottish planning policy gives priority to the reuse not only of derelict land, but of vacant and underused land and buildings, which are sometimes referred to as brownfield land. The Executive has a number of funding streams, such as the £20 million vacant and derelict land fund, which aim to tackle the negative environmental impact of such sites.

I was particularly concerned about the impact of such areas on visitors to Scotland and on their perception of our cities. I refer in particular to the entry into Aberdeen from the airport and the north. Has the minister had any discussions with BEAR Scotland about the state of the roads in that area; with Aberdeen City Council about the actions that it can take on the roads that are under its control; and with the private sector about the state of derelict property and land, particularly along the A96?

I am sure that Brian Adam was not referring to the road as derelict land.

Two funds are available. The one to which I referred is the vacant and derelict land fund; there is also the more specialist contaminated land fund. Both funds are of the order of £20 million. In essence, the representations that we receive when we assess the priority for funding allocations come from local authorities; in Brian Adam's case, those representations would come from Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council. I am not aware of any specific such requests, but I would be happy to look into the site to which the member has referred.

The minister is perhaps aware that there are similar concerns in relation to West Dunbartonshire, which has an extensive run of vacant and derelict land along the Clyde. In the context of the regeneration of the Clyde and of the whole regeneration process in Clydebank, I would hope that, when vacant and derelict land is being considered this time, West Dunbartonshire will qualify, along with Glasgow and North Lanarkshire, which benefited from the fund on the previous occasion.

I am sure that, when we assess the distribution of the funds, we will have to set priorities. There is not an unlimited amount of money; as I said, there is £20 million in each of the two funds that I mentioned. I have no doubt that the points that Des McNulty makes on the connection between Clydebank and the regeneration scheme in Glasgow will be taken into account in assessing those priorities.

---

Dairy Farmers (Meetings)

To ask the Scottish Executive what recent meetings it has had with representatives of dairy farmers. (S2O-4106)

I met members of the NFU Scotland milk committee in October, and Allan Wilson met representatives of the industry on two occasions in April. Officials meet representatives of the sector particularly regularly, normally through the Scottish milk forum.

In view of that answer, the minister will be well aware of the recurring problem whereby dairy farmers have to sell their product at less than cost—at around 17p to 19p a litre—while other people in the industry make money and the shopper ends up paying around 45p to 50p a litre for the product. Leaving aside the fact that the whole problem stems from the actions of the Tory Government in the mid-1990s, will the minister say what he is doing—either personally or through talking to the Department of Trade and Industry or the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—to secure some sort of permanent solution to the problem, which keeps coming back?

There are two connected points there, the first of which is the voluntary code that was agreed to by the supermarkets and the industry but which has no statutory underpinning. As the member rightly points out, the code was negotiated by the DTI with input from the Office of Fair Trading. There is no doubt that there is an enormous sense of disappointment that the code is not being operated properly. The Scottish Executive is taking up the matter to see whether there is another way of working that in conjunction with the industry.

The second point is permanent solutions. We have a fundamental difficulty with the milk industry in Scotland, in that far too much of it depends on the raw milk price; that would be true even if the 17p to 19p per litre price that was postulated by the member rose by another 2p per litre and got nearer to the Scottish industry's break-even point. That is what we are discussing with the industry.

I do not know how the Government can do it, but moves must be made towards creating more vertical integration so that we are less dependent on the raw milk price. We have said to NFUS and the milk committee that we will do everything we can to encourage those discussions, but the member will appreciate that it is not wholly within my powers to make that happen. The two key issues are the relationship or the chain between the supermarkets and the raw milk producers, and the dependency of those producers on the raw milk price.

The minister will be aware of the comparatively benign conditions that exist in my constituency for dairy farmers. I am sure that he will therefore share my concern that, in recent weeks, a 200-cow herd and a 300-cow herd have ceased milk production. Those are efficient and modern units that are unable to make ends meet even in the most favourable conditions for dairy farming. Does the minister understand the anger that dairy farmers feel about the introduction of the national beef envelope because they will be contributing towards it but receiving no benefit from it? Will he consider reviewing the criteria so that beef calves from the dairy herd will qualify for support under the envelope?

I understand fully the deep frustration of milk farmers who find themselves going out of business in the present conditions. However, I am bound to say that a 1p change in the price and in profit would have a much more material effect on those businesses than the national beef envelope will. I understand the argument and I am not dismissing it, but the real issue for milk producers is the fact that at the 17p to 19p figure that was quoted by Alasdair Morgan, the majority of our herds are not making money. It is essential for those businesses to bridge the 2p gap either by moving up the supply chain or, in the long term, by changing the relationship or the percentage by which they depend on the raw milk price.

In the light of some of the answers that the minister has given, I would like to pursue the issue of the code of practice. Could the Government legislate in that area, or does that have to be ruled out because doing so would take the Executive into competition policy? Has the minister discussed the matter with DEFRA and will he clarify whether the statutory underpinning of the code of practice that the farmers sought when they lobbied Parliament is practical? Is it under discussion?

The member is correct to say that the issue would take us into the territory of competition law. That is why the DTI was the sponsoring department for the initial agreement, which was overseen by the competition policy directorate.

The discussions that we are having with the industry and DEFRA indicate that it would not be productive for us to get into the area of competition law. Although what we believed to be an agreement was secured, that agreement does not appear to be being acted upon by the supermarket companies. The current discussions are aimed at trying to make that agreement effective.

---

Health and Community Care

---

Obesity

To ask the Scottish Executive what targets it has set for reducing levels of obesity. (S2O-4080)

Obesity is a pressing concern for the Scottish Executive, with an estimated 21 per cent of adults and 18 per cent of 12-year-olds in Scotland classified as obese. The associated serious health risks—such as cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, stroke and hypertension—identify obesity as a key risk factor for focused action. Experts acknowledge the need for emphasis on prevention and on the relationship between diet, physical activity and obesity.

Our health improvement programme focuses strongly on improving diet and raising physical activity levels. Findings from the recent health education population survey suggest an increased awareness that lifestyle changes are needed to improve health and encouraging signs that more people are achieving the recommended levels of physical activity and eating more healthy foods. However, there is much work still to be done in integrating prevention measures effectively with the management and treatment of overweight and obesity.

Does the minister agree that it is strange that the Executive has no specific target for reducing levels of obesity, given that one in five 12-year-old children is classed as clinically obese? Given the money that the Executive is rightly investing in improving diet and levels of physical exercise, surely there must be a target on the back of that to measure that improvement. Will the minister commit to setting a clear target for reducing obesity among children and adults?

The Executive's strategy is about health improvement and prevention, not cure. No less a body than the World Health Organisation has endorsed our approach as a benchmark for others to follow. The Executive has enough targets, strategies and plans, which include the diet action plan, the physical activity strategy, the healthy living campaign, the work that goes on in our schools and the work that is done all round Scotland by our health service and by our partners who deliver our health improvement strategy. We are focusing on challenging the issue and dealing with the problem. As I said, those messages are now getting through and people are making different lifestyle choices on exercise and diet.

There are targets for individual aspects of our strategy but, collectively, they relate to the improvement in the health of the people of Scotland. As a Government, we try to do our best on those matters, but individuals also have a choice to make. In our debate later today, it will be clear that the health benefits of breastfeeding can contribute significantly to a reduction in obesity levels. The Executive's health improvement strategy contributes significantly to all sorts of targets, including on the issue of obesity. The connected activity in our overall strategy is working well, as per our reports from the World Health Organisation.

Before I proceed to the next question, let me place on record an observation. Members who enter or leave the chamber should not do so by way of the well of the chamber. When members move around the chamber, they should attempt never to pass between a questioner and a minister who is giving an answer. I will convey that message specifically to the member who has just left.

---

NHS 24

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is satisfied with the performance of NHS 24. (S2O-4078)

NHS 24, which is now available across Scotland, provides round-the-clock access to advice on symptoms from a trained nurse and, where appropriate, direct access to care in one phone call. NHS 24 is providing speedier, consistent and prioritised access to appropriate health care and health information. It plays a central role in local out-of-hours care management arrangements and, in most cases, it is the first point of contact for people who need urgent health care assessment. NHS 24 supports front-line services by providing self-care advice to patients who do not require immediate care from the national health service and it frees up accident and emergency and primary care staff to deal more quickly with those who are in greater need of their professional skills. Patient feedback shows that those who have used the service rate it highly. They value the direct access that it provides to advice and reassurance.

I thank the minister for that fulsome response.

Despite that feedback, the minister should be aware of the widespread concern among my constituents about NHS 24's performance. In particular, there are concerns about the time that it can take to get a call-back response in a difficult medical situation. Those concerns were echoed by one A and E doctor at Ninewells hospital in Dundee, whom The Courier of 8 November quoted as saying:

"things have changed and they have not changed for the better at the moment".

Given that the demands on NHS 24 are bound to increase when general practitioner out-of-hours services are withdrawn in six weeks' time, can the minister assure us that NHS 24 will be able to cope?

Again, we need to put such matters in the context of our health service here in Scotland. NHS 24 has a 95 per cent satisfaction rate from those who use it. The independent evaluation that was carried out by The University of Edinburgh, if I recollect correctly, indicated increasing satisfaction with the service. If an organisation that deals with more than 1 million calls gets 88 complaints, I would suggest that, although there are individual cases that, quite rightly, cause us some concern, overall service delivery is good. For an organisation that deals with 100,000 calls a month, and 7,000 calls on a Saturday and Sunday, 88 complaints ain't bad.

However, I fully take on board the issue that Murdo Fraser raises with regard to call-back. It is about safety and managing demand. On the clinical assessment of those cases in which call-back was used, the clinical review found that most of the call-backs involved relatively minor considerations and conditions. NHS 24 is quite a sophisticated structure, and it is happy to review those situations. Call-back is constantly kept under review and the calls that are made in the call-back system are constantly being analysed.

With regard to peak demand and the change in the new general medical services contract, the information technology and telephony have recently undergone an MOT to ensure that they are working appropriately. New servers are up and running, more staff are being recruited for weekend working and more staff overall are being recruited to the service, to ensure that the service can be confident in planning how it will deal not only with the additional pressures of providing an out-of-hours service, but with winter peak demand.

I reassure members that the service is working extremely well, and the facts and figures are there to back that up. There are individual cases that are quite clearly unacceptable, but I have to say that—uniquely in the public services—NHS 24 allows the individual access to the telephone conversation, because calls are recorded. That means that people can break down the discussion between the client and the nurse and talk things through with the service user. On the whole, service users are satisfied with the response that they get from the service after raising their complaints.

---

Delayed Discharges

To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it will have with national health service boards and local authorities in respect of what further action is required to reduce the number of delayed discharges. (S2O-4042)

Tackling delayed discharge is a big priority for the Executive. Clearly, no one should have to remain in a hospital bed for longer than they need to if more appropriate care is available in the community. That is why we launched our delayed discharge action plan in March 2002, which set out a range of measures to tackle the issue. The plan is now backed with additional resources to the tune of £30 million per annum to help local authorities and their national health service partners to reduce the number of patients who are inappropriately delayed in our hospitals.

Ministers and officials have on-going discussions with NHS boards and local authorities on a range of subjects, including delayed discharge. Since the launch of our action plan, the number of patients delayed in Scotland has reduced by 1,184 and the number of patients delayed for more than six weeks has almost halved. In Forth valley, the total number delayed has reduced over the same period from 166 to 118, and the number delayed for more than six weeks has reduced from 135 to 80.

Is the minister aware that the most recent figures for Forth valley show that six out of the seven targets were not achieved and that about two thirds of the delayed discharges are in the Falkirk area? If the minister is telling us that the Scottish Executive is providing sufficient funds to deal with the problem, will he tell NHS Forth Valley and Falkirk Council to take more urgent action to reduce the number of delayed discharges, which cause a situation whereby many people, especially elderly people, are not getting the care that they deserve, while other patients have to wait far too long for a hospital bed?

I sympathise with the direction of travel that Dennis Canavan raises, and I am more than happy to engage with the authorities involved. He is absolutely correct to say that we have people in inappropriate care settings, and we must seek to resolve that. NHS Forth Valley has taken a number of steps to support effective discharge. Those measures include the provision of 24/7 cover; the purchase of additional care home places; increased packages of enhanced home care to allow people to remain at home; additional occupational therapy; A and E treatment options; hospital discharge facilities; co-ordination of the work of our public services; and enhanced rehabilitation services. That package of measures is about not just money, but the way in which different public sector organisations work. I want them to work better, more closely together and in a more timely fashion. I am not satisfied with the numbers and I am more than happy to engage with the relevant authorities to ensure that we meet targets, because the resources are there and they should be used properly.

Is the minister aware that, according to figures supplied by Scottish Care, funding per person per week for residential care is £35 short and that for nursing care is £61 short of the costs of provision? That is largely why there are insufficient care homes to satisfy demand, which results in blocked hospital beds. Is the minister further aware that the problem could be resolved quickly if he agreed to pay care homes for the real costs of care?

With all due respect, we have put a huge amount of public money into Scottish care homes to ensure that places are available. If I recollect correctly, we have provided over £140 million in the past three years to deal with the issue of providing care home places in our communities. The negotiations on such matters are tough. It is right for the Executive to ensure that we get value for money from care home providers. As a local MSP, I have probably opened five care homes in the past year, so I suggest that the market is not as dead and buried as Nanette Milne suggests.

I look forward to discussing matters with care home providers on Friday in Glasgow at their conference. I am sure that the Executive is putting its money where its mouth is with regard to the care of our elderly. I am glad to say that Scottish care home providers are with us in that task.

---

Health Authorities (Financial Deficits)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether any health authorities are projecting financial deficits for the current year and, if so, which authorities and what the projected deficits are. (S2O-4074)

Excluding the special boards, which do not project any deficits, four of the 15 health boards are forecasting to over-commit. The figures are £60.8 million for Argyll and Clyde NHS Board, which is 11 per cent of its budget; £13.6 million for Grampian NHS Board, which is 2 per cent of its budget; £4.6 million for Greater Glasgow NHS Board, which is 0.3 per cent of its budget; and £20.4 million for Lanarkshire NHS Board, which is 3 per cent of its budget.

My position is clear: I put the interests of patients first. Public organisations must manage their finances and NHS health boards are no different from any other public organisations in that respect—it is unacceptable for health boards to overspend against their budgets. From that fundamental position, Executive officials are working closely with the health boards concerned to ensure that they return to financial balance.

I share the minister's concern to put patients first. Does he consider that, by freezing two additional posts for infection-control nurses, Grampian NHS Board is delivering for patients, particularly given the clinical impact of that action, or does he think that that is acceptable in order to balance the books?

The member raises an interesting point about balancing the books. Budgets in the NHS in Scotland for the year 2002-03 went up by 7.2 per cent; the following year they went up by 7.8 per cent; and this year they have gone up by 7.25 per cent. The budget will rise from £8.8 billion in 2005-06 to £10.3 billion.

I will not second-guess the decisions of individual boards. Currently, however, 1 per cent of the overall NHS budget is an overspend. I expect as many of our health boards as possible to come into line. Grampian NHS Board is performing to the recovery plan that it published with us and it expects to be in balance by 2006-07.

Given the opportunities that are provided by the new work-force contracts, the redesign and reconfiguration of services and increased regional planning, I expect our health boards to manage their resources effectively. The Executive has provided the resources for our health services to run effectively and we have covered many of the pressures for our health boards. I expect the boards to make their own decisions, but I also expect them to manage their resources effectively in the interests of patients.

I am in favour of the agenda for change proposals, so the minister will understand that I was concerned at the weekend to hear it said that he and the Executive are "clueless" as to how much the proposals will cost. What is he doing to ensure that health boards have the resources to fund fully the agenda for change?

Agenda for change is one of those pressures in the health service for which the Executive seeks to reassure health boards that the money and resources are available to cover the demand. The report to which the member referred was misleading and inaccurate. The new agenda for change system is probably one of the most radical overhauls of the payment systems in the NHS since 1948; it represents a huge undertaking, which has been negotiated over a number of years with several partners, including the four United Kingdom health departments.

It would be better if people reported matters more accurately, based on the information that is given to them. Far from being clueless, we have carried out detailed cost modelling based on a pilot site in West Lothian, in which the member will be interested. That was mapped across more than 25,000 workers in NHS Scotland and was then developed to give an all-Scotland model of the resources required for agenda for change. We gave details of that in response to the reporter's inquiry, but of course he chose not to mention it.

I reassure members that the Executive is absolutely clear about the impacts of agenda for change in Scotland. We continue to map those impacts and we are working with our health boards at a local level. Agenda for change will bring significant benefits to patients and those who work in the organisation. We are not clueless. In fact, I would argue that, if any public or private sector organisation had the degree of management information that we have in this area, they would be very jealous indeed.

I am quite taken aback by the staggering defence of the indefensible. When the Minister for Health and Community Care came to the Health Committee recently and talked about his budget—in which he had some interest in his former role as Minister for Finance and Public Services—he said clearly that he would support and help to bail out Argyll and Clyde NHS Board as part of the package, whereas it seems that the other health boards that are in difficulty will just have to manage their books. Will the minister care to cast his eye once again over the Arbuthnott formula, which disadvantages Grampian immensely, to the point that services are at risk of being cut? Only today I heard about a delay in getting access to breast screening, which was unacceptable to the individual concerned. Those are the strains that Grampian feels. What will the minister do about it?

As usual, the member grossly misrepresents the position. I made it clear that no patient would be put in jeopardy in the Argyll and Clyde NHS Board area and that payments would be made in relation to the revenue costs of that health board, but I have not underwritten the on-going deficit that that board has developed over a number of years. I want to ensure that the board can account for that deficit and that it takes proactive, preventive measures to ensure that it does not happen again.

Far from saying that I will underwrite or bail out anybody, I am saying that patients need not worry in that health board area because the bills will be paid and the staff will be there to provide the service. It is appropriate that the Executive should ensure that that happens. The challenge for the health board is to deal with the financial and organisational mismanagement of past years that has caused the current problem. Not until I am satisfied that that matter is resolved will I sign off any financial relationship with Argyll and Clyde NHS Board.

Let us not misrepresent the situation. I have assured patients that the services are available to them and that the nurses and doctors will be there for them when they are needed. However, the health board's challenge is to provide me with a plan that gives me the confidence on behalf of the taxpayer and the patient that the board can deliver in the long term.

I welcome the minister's commitment to protect patients' interests in NHS Argyll and Clyde. However, does he agree that, despite efforts to reduce financial deficits, the projected deficit for NHS Argyll and Clyde for 2007 is £100 million? Does he agree that that perhaps points to an underlying structural problem, which could be resolved in part by the break-up of NHS Argyll and Clyde?

I am considering those matters just now and I have met the chair and chief executive of that organisation. As members know, in replacing the health board management team in late 2002, the Executive set the health board a difficult task and we should not expect the board to deal with all the problems overnight. However, as I have said on the record previously, if there is a structural problem that suggests to me that the health board cannot meet its service delivery and resource requirements in the future, I need to look at all the options. I do not want to make that decision until all the factual information is available to me and I have had further discussions with those concerned at a local level. The options remain open to me, but it is too early to say which one I will take.

---

Bedblocking

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to reduce bedblocking. (S2O-4128)

As I said to Dennis Canavan, tackling delayed discharge is one of our biggest priorities. No one should have to remain in a hospital bed when they can be more appropriately cared for in the community. Since we published our action plan, the number of patients delayed in Scotland has reduced by 1,184 and the number of patients delayed for more than six weeks has almost halved. In the Greater Glasgow NHS Board area, the number of delayed discharges has reduced over the same period from 464 to 264 and the number of patients delayed for more than six weeks has reduced from 295 to 144.

I welcome those figures. Will the minister outline to Parliament the specific steps that have been taken and the measures that the Executive intends to promote to enable Greater Glasgow NHS Board more effectively to deal with the problem and further to reduce the figures?

Our objective is to ensure that local authorities, care home providers and health boards work collectively to solve a difficult problem. The Executive has been putting in work and resources to ensure that that happens. There have been considerable reductions in a number of the blockages in the system.

Health boards and local authorities are being much more proactive about the management of the issue. The acute outreach and rapid response teams that have been developed in the greater Glasgow area are helping, as are the purchase of additional care home places, enhanced home care and equipment adaptations—all those factors are reducing the problem. I am still not satisfied, however, and we need to maintain pressure on boards and local authorities to ensure that the matter is addressed. I look forward to continuing that work. We know that there is a problem, but the numbers are falling and we will continue to focus on the matter.

---

General Questions

---

Small Businesses

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to support small businesses. (S2O-4102)

Small businesses are a crucial component of the Scottish economy. The Scottish Executive and its economic development agencies, Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, are committed to improving the support available to new starts and established small businesses. Our strategic priorities are set out in our refreshed smart, successful Scotland enterprise strategy, which I launched on 11 November.

I am a fairly regular visitor to the Federation of Small Businesses and I know that local businesses are particularly concerned about disproportionate water charges and training. What progress has the minister made on those two issues? How many meetings has he held with interested groups such as the FSB to consider the issues? A business that employs only one or two people finds it difficult to release staff for a day's training.

It is important that we continue to work in partnership and to engage with businesses throughout the Scottish economy and specifically the small-business sector. In addition to the informal contacts that the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, Allan Wilson, and I have, I have met the FSB on formal occasions during the year.

On water, Ross Finnie and I joined the FSB in a forum in Aberdeen at the end of September. We and the FSB instigated the forum specifically to discuss issues arising from the consultation on the future of water charges and the investment programme beyond 2006.

On training, I accept and emphasise the importance of training and skills development in general in our economy and I recognise the difficulties that small businesses can have in engaging in training if, for example, only one or two people run the business. Members know that the Scottish skills fund was established, following the move towards sector skills councils to replace the national training organisations, to maintain and improve the demand for high-quality in-work training. I am considering how the fund might be adapted to find ways of engaging more with employees in small and medium-sized enterprises and microbusinesses. I accept that there is a particular issue for such employees and I want to think imaginatively about how that issue might be addressed.

---

Golden Goodbye Payments

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is considering golden goodbye payments to encourage councillors to stand down at the next election. (S2O-4079)

The Local Governance (Scotland) Act 2004, which was passed by the Parliament in June, includes a number of measures aimed at widening access to council membership, including the introduction of a severance scheme for councillors who choose to stand down at the next election.

Is the minister aware of the public anger at the suggestion that there will be pay-offs of up to £30,000 for retiring councillors? Is not the proposal a bribe of taxpayers' money for superannuated Labour councillors, to buy off their opposition to the introduction of the single transferable vote?

The first thing to stress is that the Parliament has accepted the principle of one-off severance arrangements for councillors as we enter a radically different era for local government. There is a direct link between the principle of one-off severance payments and that of widening access to local government. That is why, early in the new year, we will publish the councillors remuneration progress group's report along with the widening access progress group's report.

It is not for me to comment on any of the exaggerated media reports or even to respond to the exaggerated rhetoric that Mr Fraser chooses to indulge in. I can understand why he would want to indulge in that language here; I seem to recall very similar words in some recent exaggerated media reports, but that is probably because Mr Fraser and his colleagues were at least in part responsible for them.

A principle is involved. If the Conservatives are so concerned about one-off severance payments, I look forward to hearing an assurance that no Conservative councillor in Scotland will accept any payment.

Question 3 has been withdrawn.

---

Public Appointments System

To ask the Scottish Executive what additional measures it intends to take to make the public appointments system fairer and more transparent. (S2O-4034)

The Executive has introduced a range of measures to make public appointments in Scotland fairer and more transparent. The arrangements are kept under regular review and improvements will be made to the system whenever appropriate.

Does the minister recognise that, of those appointees declaring a political affiliation, two thirds declared an affiliation to the Labour Party? That is exactly the same percentage as before the Executive's measures were introduced. Will the minister now activate the promise made by Peter Peacock when he was the minister responsible and propose to the Parliament the establishment of a public appointments committee to oversee the entire process before it is brought further into disrepute?

I am tempted to suggest that, on two grounds, Mr Neil is attempting to mislead. He forgets to point out to people that the Parliament has an excellent record on public appointments. We passed the Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Act 2003 and, as of June this year, we have a new commissioner. Our record is first class and we are ahead of many parts of the world.

In Mr Neil's portrayal of the number of people on public bodies in Scotland who have declared a political affinity, there is again distortion. Of the people who sit on public bodies in Scotland, 83 per cent have declared no political activity in the five years prior to their appointment. Of course, the majority of the remaining 17 per cent have declared an affiliation to Labour. That is hardly surprising. Election after election, people in Scotland endorse the Labour Party. They reject the Scottish National Party time after time. It is therefore hardly surprising, since we command the majority of the support in Scotland, that the majority of the small number of people who declare an affiliation will declare an affiliation to Labour. The reality that Mr Neil and his colleagues absolutely refuse to accept is that the SNP is a tiny political party in Scotland and so will have a tiny proportion of representatives on those bodies.

---

Prisoner Programme Requests

To ask the Scottish Executive what proportion of prisoner programme requests cannot be met due to resource constraints. (S2O-4049)

All prisoner programme requests require to be assessed for suitability on criteria such as level of need, motivation and whether an appropriate point in sentence has been reached. The Scottish Prison Service has advised me that no prisoner programme requests are currently being turned down due to resource constraints and, indeed, that there was a significant increase in sex offender programme places in 2003-04.

I welcome the implicit news that programmes are increasing in number. However, during a visit to Glenochil prison last week, I received very different information. Only the people with the greatest need and the people who could derive the greatest benefit were able to go on programmes. The majority of prisoners who applied were not able to do so. Will the minister investigate the difference between the information that I have and the answer that she has given and revert to me when she has done so?

I am always happy to provide further information to members. It is important to recognise that there may well be instances in which prisoners make requests to attend programmes but an assessment is made that the programme is not the correct one to meet their needs or that the timing, at that point in the sentence, is not the best for the prisoner.

The Executive has made available two new prisoner programmes. As I indicated, one programme deals with sex offenders—in particular, adult male prisoners whose sentences are of less than four years. That is a new programme, which was originally developed by Canadian psychologists. Earlier this year, the Scottish Prison Service introduced it into Peterhead, Edinburgh and Barlinnie prisons.

The Executive is also piloting a new violence-prevention programme of some 200 hours in length. The programme is designed for male prisoners for whom there is a high risk of violent reoffending. Again, it was developed by the Correctional Service of Canada and we have introduced it into the SPS.

Those two new programmes show the Executive's commitment to ensuring that the correct types of programme are in place to deal with serious and violent offenders. We will evaluate what works and ensure that that type of programme is rolled out in our prisons.

---

Rural Primary Schools (Closure Guidance)

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has for the implementation of its recently published guidance on the closure of rural primary schools. (S2O-4047)

The document "Additional Guidance on Local Authority Proposals for the School Estate, Including School Closures" was published on 30 September. All local authorities have to consider proposals for their school estate, including school closures, having regard to the guidance.

Is the minister aware of evidence from the deep south of Scotland where a council is taking unreasonable and inconsistent decisions to close village schools? It is doing so in spite of educational and social factors, regardless of opportunities for shared community facilities, in the face of overwhelming opposition from parents and the wider community and in flat contradiction to assurances that David Mundell made in the Parliament on behalf of his Conservative colleagues on Scottish Borders Council? Taking into account all those circumstances, will the minister give serious consideration to his power to review Scottish Borders Council's decision to close Hutton Primary School? In doing so, will he pay careful attention to representations from the member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, who is sitting beside him?

Mr Home Robertson cleverly did not, I think, mention the school of which he was thinking. However, I am aware of the situation in the Borders to which he refers and of the recent decisions that were made. He will know that such decisions have to be taken by local authorities. However, authorities require to justify their decisions to their local population, to whom they are accountable.

None of the recent decisions taken by Scottish Borders Council has yet been referred to me, so I cannot prejudge what the particular issues will be. However, I make it clear that the guidance that I mentioned sets out the tests that I will apply in considering how a council has handled a particular proposal, as and when that is referred to me. I will look at issues such as whether the educational case was fully tested, the distance of travel between the new school and the school that the council proposes to close, the pupil projections and whether new housing developments are planned for the area.

In the context of Mr Home Robertson's question, the issue is how the decision fits into the wider rural development policies for the area as a whole. The council cannot base its decision on whether to close a school on financial grounds alone. I assure Mr Home Robertson that I will listen to all the representations that are made to me about the case. When I come to look at it, I will pay particular attention to the council's handling of the matter.

As many of us know, we are talking about Burnmouth. When the request from Scottish Borders Council to close the school—in the face of fierce opposition from the entire community—arrives on his desk, will the minister take note of his own objective, which is to put schools

"at the heart of the community – meeting the needs of communities"?

How on earth can the needs of the community be met if the school is closed?

As I indicated, one of the requirements in the guidance is for local authorities to be up front and open with their local populations about what they regard as the justifications for their proposals. One of the factors that must be taken into account is rural development: councils need to consider how schools fit into the pattern of their proposals to develop rural Scotland.

Ultimately, the matter is for the local authority. Although Christine Grahame mentioned only one school, I understand that two schools have recently been the subject of a similar decision. I rather suspect that Mr Home Robertson was referring to a different school. As I said, I cannot prejudge those cases because they have not yet come on to my desk.

---

Schools (Drugs and Alcohol Awareness)

To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken in schools to raise awareness of the dangers of abuse of drugs and alcohol and to promote health and welfare. (S2O-4030)

Education authorities are encouraged to address all aspects of health education within a comprehensive programme of personal and social education, including awareness of drugs and alcohol and the promotion of health and welfare. The Executive has provided £3 million over three years for work on drugs education and awareness in schools. Since 2002, the Executive has funded the work of the Scottish health promoting schools unit, which aims to support all schools to become health promoting by 2007.

I am grateful for that comprehensive response. Two recent events in Glenrothes—B in the park and gigging 4 it—were organised by young people, with the help of community and educational services. The events use music from local groups to highlight the dangers of the abuse of drugs and alcohol and to promote healthy alternatives. Those young people hope to take elements of that approach into schools throughout Scotland, using a local band called Draw. I invite the minister or the deputy minister, if their diaries permit, to come and meet some of the young people to hear about their approach. Will the deputy minister confirm that the Executive supports that approach?

I am delighted to say that we support that approach and that we are keen to spread best practice throughout Scotland. When good ideas such as the ventures in Fife that the member mentioned are developed anywhere, we want to tell other authorities about their success. The member will be interested to know that the annual survey on drugs education, which reported in September 2003, showed that 99 per cent of schools in Scotland provide drugs education. That is an important statistic. Diaries permitting, either Peter Peacock or I would be pleased to visit Christine May's constituency—I have been there twice recently—to see at first hand the development that she mentioned.

---

Police Response Times (Lothian and Borders)

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to assist Lothian and Borders police to improve their response times. (S2O-4103)

As the member is aware, decisions on operational policing are a matter for the chief constable. However, we are providing record funding to Lothian and Borders police and have made clear the importance that we attach to the use of those resources to improve service delivery.

I thank the minister for her response and for the extra funding for Lothian and Borders police, although the impact of the grant-aided expenditure changes on that force may be less positive than they will be elsewhere. She will be aware that operation capital, changes in call-centre provision and the priority gradings have, anecdotally, had a negative impact on policing in Edinburgh. Only last week, a young pregnant woman was physically assaulted outside my constituency office; when she was brought into the office, my staff telephoned the police three times before they arrived, which was well over an hour later. I receive reports of similar events all the time from my constituents, as I am sure other members do. What is the Executive doing to assist Lothian and Borders police with the monitoring of their grading system and the delivery of quicker response times, bearing in mind that the target for 999 responses in urban areas is 10 minutes?

I hope that Margaret Smith will take up the incident that she described directly with Lothian and Borders police. I am sure that she already has that action in hand. Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary for Scotland is carrying out an inspection review in relation to Lothian and Borders police. The report of last year's primary inspection of the force stated that a number of issues would be covered in the review, including the impact of operation capital, the operation of the force communication centre and the impact of the force's review of its shift and call-grading systems. The force has undertaken an internal review of a number of issues and is planning changes as a result. I understand that the inspectorate's review-inspection report will probably be published towards the end of this year or at the beginning of next year.

As Margaret Smith mentioned, Lothian and Borders police have received an increase in the GAE figures, although it may not be as big an increase as other forces have received. However, Lothian and Borders police receive an extra £740,000 per annum in addition to the GAE money, in recognition of the capital-city pressures.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wonder whether you would be good enough to review the management of question time. In the first section we reached only question 4 and in the second section we reached only question 5. I hesitate to advise the Presiding Officers, but some of the ministers' answers are very long-winded and eat into time. That is reflected in the fact that many members are not attending the chamber for question time and are not even bothering to submit questions. I ask the Presiding Officers, with respect, whether the management of question time could be reviewed.

I commend the member for deciding that she would not presume to advise the chair on how to conduct its business. One of the additional factors is that, in the first section of questions, I was able to accept seven supplementary questions, which added to the time. In the second section, I accepted four supplementary questions, which also added to the time. In the third section, I accepted one supplementary question, which allowed us to get as far as question 8. Members must appreciate that all those variables are factors.

It is fair to say that we observe different lengths in ministerial answers. There are points in that for ministers. However, those are not points for me to enforce from the chair; they are matters that concern us all in how we handle this affair. I understand that the Procedures Committee is looking at aspects of the procedure, so the member may well wish to make some representations to that committee.