Plenary, 18 Apr 2002

Meeting date: Thursday, April 18, 2002

Official Report 761KB pdf

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Question Time

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SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

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Return-to-learn Schemes

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to increase support to the return-to-learn schemes. (S1O-5015)

The Executive has given its support to a very successful return-to-learn scheme in the health service. The Minister for Education and Young People will have more to say about that scheme later this afternoon during the debate, which we have just been discussing, on the social care work force.

Will the minister join me in congratulating the trade unions on their role in encouraging people who are the most disaffected from learning to return to learning? Will she look seriously at how the trade unions' role can be consolidated and expanded?

We recently received a survey by the Workers Educational Association on the success of the return-to-learn scheme. It shows that 80 per cent of those who have benefited are women and that 91 per cent of those who have benefited left school at 16 or before with no formal qualifications. In the light of that impressive evidence on the success of encouraging people to return to learn, I would like to consider requests for pilot funding for further projects in the return-to-learn scheme.

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Tourism (Promotion)

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to promote tourism. (S1O-5022)

Our "Tourism Framework for Action 2002:2005" document, which I published on 11 March 2002, provides a clear sense of direction and a way forward for the Scottish tourism industry. It also suggests further steps that can be taken, particularly by businesses, which will be supported by the public sector.

The minister will know that the recent comparative figures for overseas visitors to Scotland and Ireland show a 14 per cent decrease for Scotland, but a 34 per cent increase for Ireland. The minister will also know of the crucial role of marketing in attracting visitors to Scotland. Can the minister tell us why the Irish marketing budget is larger than the entire VisitScotland budget? Can he tell us why VisitScotland faces a 23 per cent decrease in its budget next year, which will be a drop from £37 million to £28 million? In the face of the foot-and-mouth crisis, 11 September, and the global downturn, is this not an opportune moment to reinstate that £10 million per annum and to use some of the money that was freed up by yesterday's budget?

Given that he was nowhere to be seen when we debated the issue in the chamber three weeks ago, is interesting that Duncan Hamilton seems to have discovered tourism. Better late than never.

It is important to say that the money that is given to VisitScotland represents only part of the funding of tourism in Scotland; there are also contributions from Scottish Enterprise, local authorities, local enterprise companies and the national institutions, such as Historic Scotland. Spending on tourism must be seen in the round.

It is important to note that the money allocated to VisitScotland was considerably inflated last year because of the foot-and-mouth disease crisis and the events of 11 September. The money was allocated specifically to deal with the problems of that year and was spent mainly on marketing. I should point out that the amount of funding going to VisitScotland, quite apart from the money that comes from the other sources that I mentioned, has been on a continual upward trend.

The comparison with Ireland is a little false. There are a number of ways in which the Scottish tourism industry outperforms the Irish one. Simply saying that we should spend as much on marketing as the Irish do ignores the fact that there are significant differences between the two tourism sectors. The funding that we are giving to tourism is reflected in the effective start that the tourism industry has had this year. We will continue to monitor the situation to ensure that there is adequate funding to ensure that Scotland is sold effectively abroad.

Has any consideration been given to exploring the idea of state-run hotels, along the lines of the Spanish paradors? That would allow itineraries to include non-traditional tourist facilities such as the excellent Summerlee heritage park in Coatbridge where can be found, among other things, the only working trams in Scotland.

I am aware that the industrial museums and other visitor attractions that illustrate our industrial heritage are important to the way in which we sell Scotland and are popular with visitors from within and outwith Scotland.

I am not aware of the hotel model that Elaine Smith mentioned, but I would be happy to give serious consideration to suggestions from her.

When will the public-private partnership contract for e-tourism be signed? Will the minister assure the chamber and the industry that, prior to that date, the full criteria and charges to tourism businesses for access to the website will be published?

I expect the document to be signed in the near future—certainly within the next two weeks. I am keen that the website should come into being as soon as possible. If everything runs smoothly, it should be up and running by August 2002.

As many as possible of the complaints about the operation of the joint-venture project, which is basically about ensuring that more e-commerce is involved in Scottish tourism, have been dealt with through discussions with VisitScotland and the other partners in the project.

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Accountancy Firms (Executive Contracts)

To ask the Scottish Executive: how many accountancy firms have been employed to carry out work on its behalf; which firms have been so employed; how much has been paid to the firm which was employed most often; and how much has been paid in accountancy fees in total, all since May 1999. (S1O-5024)

The Executive does not keep a central record of the number and value of contracts placed by individual departments and agencies with particular suppliers. It is not, therefore, possible to provide details of all accountancy firms which have been employed.

Many firms involved in the provision of accountancy services also provide a range of other services to us, including financial advice and consultancy. While, as a matter of course, the Executive does not purchase accountancy services, it uses accountancy firms in other capacities. For example, since 1999, the Executive has contracted with each of the big five UK accounting firms. My answer of 14 February 2002 to question S1W-22582 provides details of that.

I would like to thank the minister for his answer but I thought it was pathetic, so I will not bother.

During this morning's discussion of the proposal to privatise Scotland's prisons, much store was laid in a report by PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers is based in Bermuda. It is based in Bermuda to allow it to avoid paying British taxes. New Labour members are obviously uncomfortable, as they are in bed with PricewaterhouseCoopers in their privatisation programme. If the minister cannot tell us how much public money we are giving to accountancy firms, will he at least assure the chamber that no public money will be given to accountancy firms, such as PricewaterhouseCoopers, that dodge legitimate tax payments in this country?

It is pathetic that Tommy Sheridan should ask me, on behalf of the Scottish taxpayer, to go into our database of more than 70,000 suppliers to seek an answer to enable him to make a cheap political point. That is not the best use of the Scottish public's resources.

Perhaps Tommy Sheridan could do with the services of an accountant himself, as he would put pensions up to £150 per week, introduce a £7 minimum wage, increase all benefits by £25 a week, restore income support and housing benefit for students, replace our hospital building programme without public-private partnerships, cut public transport fares to 5p a mile and cancel all public housing debt. Perhaps Tommy Sheridan needs the services of a magician instead. Of course, his 2001 manifesto also mentioned

"a top quality integrated transport network capable of carrying passengers to any destination in Scotland in less than one hour."

He needs a magic carpet for that.

The services that the Scottish Executive takes from all sectors are procured through open, competitive tenders that are based on the track record of the organisations involved and provide full value to the Scottish taxpayer.

Listening to the minister, I am sure that the people of Scotland regard him as good value for money. As the guardian of the people's finances, if he does not keep track of what has been spent in the name of the people of Scotland on which firms and where, what does he do for a living?

When I read my Sunday Mail, I do not consider Andrew Wilson good value, but that is another matter entirely. In an answer to Roseanna Cunningham dated 14 February 2002, I set out the money that we spent on the big five accountants, but that is not the question that Mr Sheridan asked.

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Smoking (Under-16s)

To ask the Scottish Executive what assistance is currently being provided to chronic smokers aged under 16 years. (S1O-5018)

The Scottish Executive is committed to tackling smoking, especially among our children and young people. Smoking cessation is a key priority for investment under the health improvement fund and a number of NHS boards have established smoking cessation services specifically targeted at young people. In addition, to inform practice in this key area, youth smoking cessation schemes are being piloted throughout Scotland by the Health Education Board for Scotland and Action on Smoking and Health (Scotland).

I welcome the initiatives that the minister has outlined. Is she aware that although many bus companies, including those that service schools, have adopted no-smoking policies, they do not enforce those policies? Does she agree that that sends out entirely the wrong message to young people and negates much of the good work that HEBS, local authorities and others are doing to educate young people about the dangers of smoking? Will she join me in a campaign to write to companies to ask them to put children's health before private profit and not just to adopt no-smoking policies, but to enforce them?

I believe strongly that edicts from the Scottish Executive health department or health boards are not the only way to tackle smoking among our young people. We all have a responsibility to set an example. I expect bus companies that carry school children to enforce their own regulations, but I also expect our educational establishments to get the message across.

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Teachers

To ask the Scottish Executive when it expects to meet the target for the provision of extra teachers in the classroom that is envisaged in the McCrone settlement. (S1O-5016)

The target date is August 2006.

It will be rather difficult for the minister to meet that target date, considering the cut in teacher training over which his Executive is presiding.

I quote the First Minister, from when he was Minister for Education, Europe and External Affairs. In a reply in the chamber, he said:

"We are dramatically increasing the number of primary teachers who will be in the system in the next few years. That increase will require an increase in the number of students who train to become primary teachers."—[Official Report, 4 October 2001; c 3141.]

Is it not true that 177 primary teaching places have been lost in the coming year? How will it be possible to meet the target that the minister is talking about?

It is important that we look at the figures and the trend over the past few years. The total number of teachers being trained in Scotland back in 1998-99 was 2,011; the following year the figure was 2,253; in 2000-01, the figure was 2,379; last year it went up dramatically, to 2,818. This year, following the reductions to which Mike Russell referred, it will be 2,291.

The number is still higher than those for 1998-99 and 1999-2000, and it is only just below that for 2000-01. We are still on track to recruit the additional teachers who will be required due to the reduction in class contact time—that relates particularly to primary schools—and due to the winding-down scheme that will be introduced into Scotland's schools later this year.

I declare an interest as a member of the court of the University of Strathclyde.

Is the minister confident that the higher education institutions that provide training can competently continue to do so given the Scottish Executive's complete lack of clarity about what the budgetary provision for those institutions is?

It is not true that there is a complete lack of clarity. The guidance that was issued was absolutely clear about the number of places that would be required. That led to some of the concerns that have been expressed. I repeat that we are still training a significant number of primary teachers.

Members should look at the figures for the postgraduate certificate in education, or PGCE. Back in 1998-99 and 1999-2000, we were training 210 and 265 people respectively. This year, following the reduction that I mentioned, we will be training 404. There is still a significant increase compared with the late 1990s and the early 2000s. It is important to have good communications and to get forewarning. I agree that there was not sufficiently early warning to the higher education institutions. We are meeting representatives of those institutions and others on 30 April to ensure that planning is more effective in the future.

I declare an interest: I am a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland.

I wish to ask a McCrone-related question: is the Executive monitoring the number of local authorities that have cut the teachers professional development programme, which is an integral part of the McCrone settlement? Will the Executive find out why that is happening and have the matter rectified as soon as possible?

I have not heard about that and would be interested to find out more from Maureen Macmillan. If that is happening, I will try to take action on it.

A key part of the McCrone agreement is the introduction of continuing professional development for every teacher in Scotland. We want to ensure that significant steps forward are taken in that regard and I would be very concerned if there has been any regression.

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HM Prison Kilmarnock (Inspector's Report)

To ask the Scottish Executive when the latest report by the chief inspector of prisons into HM Prison Kilmarnock is due to be published. (S1O-5013)

I can tell the minister that the answer is in fact that it was published on Tuesday of this week.

I have quite a full answer, in fact. The chief inspector's intermediate inspection report on HM Prison Kilmarnock was distributed to the Scottish Prison Service and to the governor of the establishment on 2 and 3 April 2002, and to the Justice 1 Committee on Monday this week.

Having read the report, does the minister realise that the privatised Kilmarnock prison is the most violent prison in Scotland? Is he aware that when I and the convener of the Justice 1 Committee visited the prison a month ago, there were 27 prisoners and only one warder in the metal workshop; that the closed-circuit television cameras do not see the whole of the workshops; and that a few days after our visit one prisoner nearly coshed another prisoner to death? CCTV cameras do not break up fights in prisons.

Is the minister also aware of—and what is he doing about—the fact that, as is shown in the chief inspector's report, the prison is understaffed by 13 officers? Officers at Kilmarnock are the lowest paid in Scotland and are looking after the highest-paid prisoners. Does not Clive Fairweather's report prove that privatisation of the prison service is a total disaster?

I do not accept the member's final statement. Alex Neil made a number of points. If I had not been aware of them before, I would be now, as he made them about four times during this morning's debate.

I do not accept that Kilmarnock is the most violent prison in the Scottish Prison Service. I refer the member to some of the key performance indicators that are measured at Kilmarnock as well as at prisons in the public sector—those relating to prisoner-on-prisoner assaults and prisoner-on-staff assaults. By any stretch of the imagination, such indicators are fair measures of the extent of violence in prison. In the year to 31 March 2002, there were fewer prisoner-on-prisoner key performance indicator—KPI—assaults in Kilmarnock than in Edinburgh, and the same number as in Aberdeen, Barlinnie and Glenochil. Kilmarnock had two KPI prisoner-on-staff assaults, which is the same figure as for Cornton Vale and Shotts; six other establishments had one. Those are the most reliable figures for comparative purposes, as they are classified independently of the establishment.

I am aware of what the inspector said about vacancies. It should be noted that at the time of the inspection a number of people had been recruited and were completing basic training to fill the vacancies that were identified by the chief inspector.

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Scottish Natural Heritage (Meetings)

To ask the Scottish Executive when the Minister for Environment and Rural Development last met the chief executive of Scottish Natural Heritage and what matters were discussed. (S1O-5023)

Ministers do not routinely meet chief executives of sponsored bodies, but it would be normal for the chief executive of Scottish Natural Heritage to be present when we discuss issues with SNH's chairman and board. Ross Finnie and I met the chairman and chief executive designate of SNH on 13 March.

I thank the minister for that slightly oblique answer. I believe that the minister never met the previous chief executive of SNH. I would be keen to know whether the minister intends to meet the new chief executive more frequently to progress action that would benefit Scotland's natural environment. Such action would include the decision on the trial reintroduction of the beaver to Scotland, which has been substantially delayed after years of development and consultation. It would also include the publication of a natural heritage bill, which last year the Executive promised would be introduced as soon as possible but which has yet to be laid before Parliament.

The member raises two very important issues that concentrate the mind of the Scottish Executive and about which we are in constant touch with Scottish Natural Heritage and its new chief executive, who came into post only on 1 April.

The beaver licence application is a complex and sensitive issue. As Robin Harper knows, it does not enjoy widespread support either locally or further afield. The decision that ministers take will have to balance the interests of landowners and land managers with the interests of those who propose the reintroduction of the European beaver.

I have often informed the chamber that we intend as soon as possible to introduce a nature conservation bill. We are involved in discussions with the relevant parties on that complex issue and I will publish proposals as soon as possible.

In his discussions with SNH, has the minister developed—or is he in the process of developing—plans for the creation of a marine national park in Scotland's coastal waters? If so, where would such a park be sited?

The House of Commons is currently debating a private member's bill on marine conservation. Here we consider marine conservation in the context of special areas of conservation. Development of a marine national park is not so well advanced that I can make announcements on it to members at this juncture. However, I am happy to engage in correspondence and/or dialogue with the member concerning our thinking on that issue.

I would not hold it against the minister if he did not want routinely to meet Scottish Natural Heritage. Does he understand the real concerns that exist about the consultation process that Scottish Natural Heritage follows for nature designations? Does he accept that where socio-economic factors are not taken into account, such consultations create real uncertainties and concerns in local communities? Does he envisage a mechanism that would allow the Scottish Executive to introduce proposals for ensuring that such factors are taken into account in future?

Mr Scott is aware of my view on this issue, as we met this week to discuss it in relation to the proposed Sullom Voe special area of conservation.

As members know, we are restricted by a European directive in respect of what constitutes consultation. In advance of the designation of a site, consultation is restricted to scientific considerations. I believe that that causes a problem. It causes frustration among the consultees, because they genuinely wish to discuss social or economic considerations as part of the consultation process. As members know, I am considering how we can best ameliorate those frustrations locally.

We in the UK engage in consultation, unlike some of our European partners who simply designate without any public consultation process.

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Imprisonment (110-day Rule)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to amend the provisions of the rule of Scots law preventing imprisonment before trial for more than 110 days. (S1O-5007)

We have no present plans to do so.

I find that answer reassuring. Is the Minister for Justice confident that the existing resources available to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service will preclude any change of mind in that position for the foreseeable future?

Mr Aitken is well aware that an announcement was made last month about the restructuring of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. It was indicated at that time that resources would be put into the service.

It is widely acknowledged that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service have been performing exceptionally well under difficult circumstances. It is only fair to say that some of the problems that have been faced are a legacy from the time when Mr Aitken's party grossly underfunded the prosecution service over many years.

Whatever the minister has to do to ensure efficiency in the prosecution service, will he rule out categorically any departure from strict time limits to ensure that Scotland never goes down the road of open-ended remand, which in some European countries extends to years rather than months?

I give Roseanna Cunningham that assurance. There has been provision in Scots law since 1701 to ensure that persons are not kept in custody awaiting trial or serviced indictment for more than a limited period. We support the need for time limits on the length of time for which the state can hold an accused person in custody before trial. Indeed, that kind of development is increasingly acknowledged in other European countries because of the European convention on human rights.

Does the minister consider that with the correct staffing levels in the Procurator Fiscal Service there would be less focus on the 110-day rule? In reality, the Crown has approximately 80 days to prepare the prosecution case to allow the indictment to be served. That is quite a short period and in general the Procurator Fiscal Service has done very well over the years to adhere to that deadline.

Further, does the minister agree that as crime becomes more complex and more forensic evidence may need to be available, we need constantly to review whether the Crown has the correct resources to meet the tight, but important, 110-day deadline?

The deployment of staff and decisions taken within the Crown Office are, quite properly, and independently, matters for the Lord Advocate. I have already told Bill Aitken that resources are being made available to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. As Pauline McNeill will know, I have asked Lord Bonomy to conduct a review of the efficiency of the High Court. He may make comments on time limits, but we await his report, which I think will be available some time in the summer, and will want to consider that. I make it clear that we would wish to have limits on the time for which persons can be remanded in custody awaiting trial.

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Autism Awareness Year

To ask the Scottish Executive what contribution it is making to autism awareness year 2002. (S1O-5026)

The Scottish Executive has taken action on a number of fronts relating to autism. We are contributing very significantly to the development of provision for children with autistic spectrum disorders through the innovation grants programme, and are taking forward improvements to services for people with autism through implementation of "The same as you?" Cathy Jamieson and I will be speaking at a conference on 21 May that will address recent developments in autism. The conference will also be used as a platform to launch the national service network, recommended by "The same as you?"

I thank the deputy minister very much for his reply. Does he agree that we have an opportunity in autism awareness year 2002 to create an integrated strategy in Scotland that would draw together health, education and social care provision? Does he agree that that opportunity should be taken at this time, so that we can create best practice that would be exported across Europe and the world? Does he agree that although we have many experts in this country, we miss the ability to give people a cradle-to-grave service and that we require to do so urgently?

In recent years, a number of improvements have been made to the delivery of services for people with autism, and it is clear that more improvements need to be made. I agree with Lloyd Quinan that there should be integration of health, education and other services. The Scottish Executive is doing that work, not just for people with autism but across every range of services. I will take the member's comments into account carefully. They will be fed into the discussions that Cathy Jamieson and I will hold in the coming months.

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Hospitals (Opportunities)

To ask the Scottish Executive what opportunities currently exist in Scottish hospitals for newly qualified junior house officers. (S1O-5028)

There are 800 posts available at the pre-registration house officer grade—previously known as junior house officer—which is the period of training that immediately follows graduation.

I thank the minister for his answer. Will he comment on a letter that I have received from a constituent whose daughter is completing her medical studies this year? She has been told that she cannot be allocated a position as a junior house officer specialising in general medicine anywhere in Scotland, as no placements are left, and that she will require to apply to a hospital in England. Will the minister give the chamber some indication of how many people might be in that position? Does he think that that situation is unsatisfactory, given the nation's need for more doctors and, in due course, consultants?

The reality is that there is a significantly higher number of medical graduates this year than there were last year. However, we have created 40 additional posts at pre-registration house officer level as part of the extra 475 general junior doctor posts that we are in the process of creating. I will look into the details of Robert Brown's constituent's situation, if the member so wishes, but, in general, I am told that 46 posts and 33 students are unallocated.

Given the fact that the working time directive is being implemented for junior doctors, will they still have access to the training and experience that is necessary for their future career development and for patient safety?

We must ensure that the training is available, and that issue had to be taken into account when we created the 40 extra posts. I am sure that Mary Scanlon welcomes not only the working time directive but the new deal for junior doctors. More progress has been made in reducing the hours of junior doctors in the past three years than in the previous 30 years. I am sure that we all agree that that is better for junior doctors, better for patients and better for the quality of care.

Will the minister ensure that the additional money that will be allocated to the national health service will be spent on employing more doctors and nurses in NHS hospitals, rather than on a private hospital in Clydebank that has already received millions of pounds of public money?

We already employ more doctors and nurses in NHS hospitals. I am sure that we all welcome the fact that, as a result of the biggest sustained increases in health spending in Scotland ever, over a period of time we will be able to employ more doctors and nurses over and above those employed already in NHS hospitals.

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Youth Disorder

To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken to tackle youth disorder issues. (S1O-5037)

The Scottish Executive is committed to reducing youth offending and building safer communities. In January of this year we launched the youth crime action programme, backed up by investment of £25.5 million over four years. That investment will improve the range, quality and availability of intensive community-based programmes for persistent young offenders.

I thank the minister for her response. I am grateful for her reassurance that the establishment of safer communities remains a priority for the Executive.

Will the minister confirm that a proper balance will be maintained between the need to deal sympathetically with young children with problems within the children's panel system and the requirement to continue to deal with those who are charged with serious offences through the adult court system?

I am happy to give the member that reassurance. I restate a point that I have made previously in the chamber. The proposals to set up pilot programmes for 16 and 17-year-olds within the children's hearing system are designed to meet the needs of particular individuals. Despite what some members have persisted in trying to suggest, they are certainly not designed for cases that, rightly, should and will be dealt with in the adult courts.