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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 16 Sep 1999

Meeting date: Thursday, September 16, 1999


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE


Stracathro Hospital

1. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive which services and staff posts have been withdrawn from or reduced in Stracathro hospital over the past five years and what steps are being taken to ensure the future of Stracathro hospital and the services it provides. (S1O-297) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Details of individual staff changes and their impact on services are available only from Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust, which employs the staff concerned. I have asked the trust to write directly to Mr Welsh with those details. As Mr Welsh will be aware, Tayside Health Board is currently conducting a review of acute services across Tayside, which is due to be completed later this year. The services provided at Stracathro hospital are part of that review.

Mr Welsh:

Is the minister aware of the enormous public concern over the future of Stracathro hospital? Can she explain why mixed orthopaedic and general surgical wards have been created against professional advice and why administrative delays have prevented the return of a consultant at a time of staff shortages? Why are wards threatened with closure, pre-empting the acute services review? Will she take a personal interest in this situation to ensure that information is made available to the public and that a fair and just solution is introduced to safeguard Stracathro hospital?

Susan Deacon:

I am aware of local concern and of the specific issues regarding local decisions that Mr Welsh raises. I am concerned that there is a great deal of confusion around the issue of Stracathro hospital and that prolonged speculation is causing concern among staff and patients in the Angus area. I have met Mr Welsh and Mr Swinney to discuss the issue. I stress that I am as keen as anyone to ensure that that uncertainty does not continue. I have asked health department officials to discuss with Tayside Health Board its plans for acute services locally and to make plain the need for a clear timetable and proper public consultation throughout that process.


Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee

To ask the Scottish Executive, if it decides to abolish the Scottish joint negotiating committee, what mechanism it intends to use to achieve the abolition. (S1O-306)

Abolition of the Scottish joint negotiating committee would require repeal of the relevant sections of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 as amended.

Ms White:

I fully understand about the legislation, but does the minister agree that abolition of the SJNC, which the SNP opposes, will not solve the current crisis in the negotiations over teachers' pay and conditions? It would take several months to get the necessary legislation through Parliament, as the minister said, but in the meantime there would be chaos in our schools. Is the minister happy to preside over that, or will he instead outline to the Parliament a more constructive approach to settling the dispute, such as making more money available to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities in order to allow COSLA to return to the negotiating table?

I hear the points that the lady raises. I made it clear from the earliest days that I wished those negotiations to deliver a settlement. If that does not happen, the future of the SJNC will be in some doubt. That position remains.


Finance

3. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):

I ask the Scottish Executive to join me in welcoming the leader of Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Wigley, who is with us today. [Applause.] To ask the Scottish Executivewhether it intends making representations to Her Majesty's Government requesting an increase in the Scottish block. (S1O-302)

The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell):

I have a choice of answers: I could say yes to the first question and ignore the second one. I welcome our colleague from Wales.

The present system for funding Scotland's budget has produced a fair settlement over a number of years. The arrangements for agreeing that settlement are set out in the statement on funding policy that was published by Her Majesty's Treasury on 31 March 1999. The Executive will make representations from time to time for increases in the Scottish budget in line with the circumstances that are set out in that document.

Alex Neil:

Is the minister aware of the independent report that was prepared by the London-based Centre for Economics and Business Research and published a couple of weeks ago, which shows that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK Treasury? We are paying more taxes in than we are getting money back out. Does he not agree that, rather than subsidising the UK Treasury, it would be far better for Scotland to get its own money back in order to use it to settle the teachers' dispute and to abolish tuition fees without robbing any other budget in Scotland?

Mr McConnell:

I am tempted to say no this time. However, I have two points that I want to make. First, as I have said, Scotland does very well out of our national agreement with the UK Treasury. The comprehensive spending review last year produced £800 million—sorry, produced £800 of extra public expenditure over the next three years for every man, woman and child in Scotland. It will produce an extra £1.8 billion for health and £1.3 billion for education.

Another London-based report that was published yesterday was welcomed this morning by Mr Wilson on behalf of the Scottish National party. However, last December he described the same organisation as talking economic gibberish when it accurately reported that Scotland would be a very large debtor of public expenditure if it went down the route that Mr Neil wants to follow, even if some of his front-bench colleagues now have reservations about independence.


Student Awards Agency

4. Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive how many miscalculations have occurred in awards made by the Student Awards Agency for Scotland in each of the last four academic sessions. (S1O-339) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): Many awards need to be recalculated every year—for example, because of changes in students' or parents' circumstances or because of errors made on application forms. Recalculations may also be required on occasion because of miscalculations—otherwise known as errors—that may have been made by agency staff. Quality assurance checks are in place to keep those to a minimum. The agency systems do not, however, separately identify the reasons for which recalculations are made.

Does the minister agree that, in circumstances where an error has been made through no fault of the recipient, maximum discretion should be exercised by the awards agency in trying to recover the excess grant?

Nicol Stephen:

It is important that there should be flexibility and that individual circumstances should be considered, and that approach is taken. For example, where repayment of a debt would have an adverse effect on a student's studies, the flexibility exists for the student to defer repayment until after graduation.


Domestic Violence

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to double the number of refuge places for women and their children fleeing domestic violence in Scotland. (S1O-310)

Refuge spaces for women and their children fleeing domestic violence are provided by local Women's Aid refuges, which are funded by local authorities.

Fiona Hyslop:

Is the minister aware that 8,000 women and children had to be turned away from women's refuges? In Hamilton, she will be interested to know, 300 women and children were turned away. Will she make every possible effort to negotiate with her Minister for Finance to ensure that refuge places—which were the subject of an excellent debate in the chamber last week— will be doubled?

Jackie Baillie:

As the person who replied to that debate, I can assure Ms Hyslop that the Scottish partnership on domestic violence, which is currently charged with devising a work plan and a long-term strategy, will report on the consistency and quality of provision across Scotland.


Scottish University for Industry

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will be possible to launch the Scottish university for industry in autumn 2000 as planned, given that no company has yet been set up and no chief executive or directors have been appointed. (S1O329)

Scottish UfI Ltd will be established next month. The chief executive and directors will be appointed by the end of the year, and the Scottish UfI will be launched in autumn 2000, as planned.

Trish Godman:

I thank the minister for his answer. Will this university for industry be distinctive from the universities for industry in England, Wales and Northern Ireland? If so, will it be possible to have a common service throughout the United Kingdom?

Henry McLeish:

It will be distinctive. We are keen that the UfI in Scotland should reflect the considerations and the aspirations of the Scottish higher and further education community. We also want to ensure—because we are talking about lifelong learning and distance learning—that we have UK coverage and interchangeability. That said, this is a marvellous concept that is being developed. We will get it on target for the autumn of 2000. It will provide a brokerage system through which people and businesses that need training can be linked with those who provide it. It is breaking new ground, and I assure Trish Godman that we intend to stick to the timetable and ensure that the project is on target. It will be of enormous benefit to the rest of Scotland.


Ministerial Meetings

To ask the Scottish Executive which ministers have so far met their counterparts from the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales. (S1O-305) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I have a long list here, Presiding Officer.

Oh dear, can you make it short?

I never cut off any of my colleagues. Sam Galbraith, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Ross Finnie and Colin Boyd have all met Cabinet members in the Welsh Assembly since 1 July. I talk frequently to Mr Alun Michael on the telephone.

That was not very long after all.

Mr Raffan:

Would the First Minister agree that the more contact we have with members of the Welsh Assembly the better, and does he further welcome the initial steps that have been taken today by Dafydd Wigley and me towards the formation of an all-party Scottish Parliament- Welsh Assembly group?

The First Minister:

The list of names that I gave shows our anxiety to keep in touch, and I think that exchange of information and ideas is always useful. The formation of an all-party group is a matter for members in this Parliament. I am interested to know where that group might meet, although I note that Mr Keith Raffan has had no difficulty in making the journey from Wales to Scotland.


Inverness College

10. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to assist Inverness College, which faces a deficit of £4 million, in providing high-quality further and higher education. (S1O-331) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): Responsibility for the financial health and funding of all Scotland's further education colleges has, since 1 July, been a matter for the Scottish Further Education Funding Council.

Earlier this month that college informed the council about the scale of the financial position that it faces. It is engaging with the college to consider as a matter of priority what action is required by the college's board of management to address the situation.

Mary Scanlon:

Does the minister agree that considering redundancies to reduce costs—as the principal of the college must do—will reduce the number of courses on offer, reduce the number of students and reduce potential income, and will lead to greater deficits in the future?

Henry McLeish:

The college must obviously address the serious financial issues that it faces. It is working with the funding council to ensure that that is done, through consolidation of finances in the short term, to ensure that the £4 million deficit will not be repeated.

It is up to the management of the college to think through all that that involves, and I sincerely hope that the management will take a positive view to ensure that the coverage of courses, access to courses and the quality of the further education that the college provides will not be undermined.

It is important to emphasise that extra money has been given to the Scottish Further Education Funding Council to ensure that we consolidate college finances and improve the quality of management, a review of which is taking place.

I hope that, with good will, those outstanding issues and difficulties can be resolved and that the college can move forward more positively.


Deer Farming

11. Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will consider giving hill livestock compensatory allowance payments to deer farmers. (S1O-327) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Yes. The consultation paper that I launched recently on the replacement for hill livestock compensatory allowances proposes the inclusion of deer farmers.

Mr Munro:

I thank the minister for that response. Will the minister assure members that his department will conduct a thorough review of the integrated administration and control system, of which the hill livestock compensatory allowances form a part? I ask this especially regarding the penalties imposed by over-zealous Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food inspectors.

If, in responding to my colleague who is seated at the back of the chamber, I turn my back on you—and I think that I am using that phrase in its correct context—I hope that you will forgive me.

No, I do not think that I will. You cannot be heard if you turn round. [Laughter.] Some members may think that that is an important point.

Ross Finnie:

I am encouraged by the fact that the Scottish National party is not interested in answers to such important questions.

The consultation paper that deals with the review of HLCAs is intended to do exactly what Mr Munro seeks, which is to examine how a new form of less favoured areas subsidy will be directed more precisely towards the kind of situation with which John Farquhar Munro is concerned.


Rail Services

12. David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it will make to the Strategic Rail Authority regarding the issuing of directions and guidance by it in respect of rail services to or from stations in Scotland, including Lockerbie and Dumfries, where no services to such stations both begin and end in Scotland. (S1O-315)

The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack):

Under the devolution settlement for railways, Scottish ministers will be able to give guidance to the authority on cross-border services. The Executive will be discussing with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the franchising director the detailed arrangements for exercising that function.

David Mundell:

Will the Scottish Executive give an assurance that it will give equal weight to the requirements of passengers using Lockerbie station, stations on the Nith valley line and other affected stations and the requirements of passengers travelling from other stations in Scotland in response to calls from users for better services, particularly to and from Glasgow and Edinburgh?

We are exploring with the DETR and the shadow strategic rail authority how guidance issued by the Executive will be taken on board. We will also hold discussions with ScotRail.


Health Care

13. Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken to improve services for those who suffer from terminal illness. (S1O-300) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The Scottish Executive aims to provide services that respond to patients' needs. Health boards are responsible for meeting the health care needs of their regional populations, including, of course, those who are terminally ill. Where there is an element of social care, the aim is to provide services that are as responsive and seamless as possible. We and the services concerned are always willing to consider ways to improve responsiveness.

Michael Matheson:

Does the minister recognise that there is considerable confusion among health boards, local authorities and health trusts about whose responsibility it is to provide palliative care, often leaving someone who has been diagnosed as having a terminal illness in an extremely vulnerable position? Does he recognise that very few hospitals or NHS trusts have a discharge protocol for arranging services with local authorities when individuals are discharged from hospital? Does the minister agree that it is inappropriate that, when someone is in the final stages of life, they should be financially assessed for social services and the care that they may require to remain at home during that final stage?

Iain Gray:

Palliative care is an area in which I have a particular interest. There are two hospices in my constituency, and I will make an address tomorrow for Marie Curie Cancer Care at its annual review.

The situation is clear: where diagnosis reveals that a person is terminally ill and requires specialist palliative care, it falls to the NHS to provide that care and meet its costs. Guidance on further care packages asks local authorities to treat terminally ill people with sensitivity and, where possible, to exempt the clients from any charge.


Tourism

14. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether the Tourism Strategy to be published in January 2000 will address the problem of high transport costs faced by the tourism industry in island areas. (S1O-308) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): An important objective of the new strategy will be to make the remoter parts of Scotland more attractive to tourists.

Tavish Scott:

Can the minister confirm that the tendering requirements for the new vessels of the northern isles ferry service, a vital service for tourists coming to Shetland, will specify that two passenger vessels must be provided to maintain a regular overnight service between Lerwick and Aberdeen?

I am aware of the importance of this issue. Details are being finalised, and my colleagues will soon be consulting on the terms of the draft service specification.


Education Service

To ask the Scottish Executive whether all pupils in Scotland with records of needs are receiving appropriate educational provision. (S1O-322)

The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock):

The Scottish Executive actively supports local authorities in meeting their statutory responsibility to provide appropriate education for all pupils with special educational needs. Resources allocated to special educational needs have been increased by £11.3 million this year.

Colin Campbell:

Would the minister agree that he has not quite answered the question? His response has destroyed my supplementary in some ways.

I want to ask—I will ad lib—whether he is convinced that all children requiring records of needs are not being deprived of them in some areas because of budgetary considerations.

Peter Peacock:

I have never before been accused of not answering a question: that is a novelty.

We are on a journey of trying constantly to improve provision for children with special educational needs. We have started that journey, but it is not yet complete. There is a lot more to be done. We are providing substantial additional resources this year, including an advice line for parents with children who have special educational needs. We have just established a forum to examine a vehicle for continuing dialogue on policy development for children with special educational needs. Although we will always look to improve provision, I think that we have made a positive start on that journey.


St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane

16. Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executivewhether any ministers have plans to visit St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane, before the end of the year. (S1O-334) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): There are no such plans.

Mr Monteith:

I am disappointed that the minister has no plans to visit St Mary's. As that school provides education at a cost of £900 per pupil less than equivalent primary schools, will he consider giving St Mary's grant-aided status, which is enjoyed by that other excellent school, Jordanhill?

Peter Peacock:

I never like to disappoint Mr Monteith, but I may have to. His question reveals the paucity of thinking about education in Conservative circles, because everything seems to be reduced to money. This is not about money. The legislative reform that we seek is to get rid of a rather nasty, divisive piece of legislation that sought to create a two-tier system of education.

We want to signal clearly to every Scottish

parent that they can expect an excellent education service from their local authorities and that they need never opt out to get it.

The minister will have noticed that I said excellent education, not just any old education, that is £900 cheaper. The bill talks about improving—

Ask a question, Mr Monteith.

I reiterate my question: will the minister offer St Mary's the opportunity to be grant-aided, as Jordanhill is, thus preserving the two-tier status that he will preserve in any case?

There are no plans to offer St Mary's that status.


Fisheries

17. Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has made representations to Her Majesty's Government requesting that the Scottish Executive lead European and international fisheries negotiations on behalf of the United Kingdom. (S1O-317) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): I have had discussions with the fisheries minister at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I intend to play a full part in the UK team and expect to take a lead role in the appropriate circumstances.

Richard Lochhead:

I was hoping for a straight yes. Is the minister aware that the fishing industry is 10 times more important to Scotland than it is to the UK, and that 70 per cent of UK fish catches are landed at Scottish ports?

The fishing industry expects the Scottish fisheries minister to go over to Europe, not to carry the UK minister's bags, but to bring back the best possible deal for Scotland's fishing industry. Has the minister made representations directly to the UK Government for the Scottish fisheries department to lead all negotiations, given their overriding importance to the Scottish economy?

Mr Home Robertson:

I recognise a bag carrier when I see one. Richard Lochhead is quite right in saying that Scotland has the lion's share of Britain's fishing interests. We have most of the fishing grounds, most of the catching capacity and the lion's share of the value of the landings. Mercifully, the people of Scotland wisely rejected the idea of nationalism, and that means that we now have the advantage of having the United Kingdom's 10 votes in the European Council. I intend to use those votes in the interests of Scotland's fishing communities.

Does the minister accept that the best deal for Scotland's fishermen will not be achieved if a representative from another Government conducts the negotiations on behalf of the Scottish industry?

Mr Home Robertson:

We will act on behalf of the United Kingdom, which has 10 votes in the European Council. As Mr Lochhead has already acknowledged, Scotland has the lion's share of fishing interests and we intend to use our influence appropriately and effectively.


Stracathro Hospital

18. Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what assurance can be given that the proposed closure of wards 15 and 6 at Stracathro hospital, Brechin, will not prejudice the outcome of the acute services review currently being undertaken by Tayside Health Board. (S1O-309) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust has assured me that its proposals will improve service delivery while maintaining appropriate ward occupancy levels. Those changes will not result in a reduction of the services that are currently provided at Stracathro hospital.

Will the minister undertake, as a matter of urgency, to investigate and facilitate the reinstatement to full-time use of the mobile magnetic resonance imaging scanner that was removed from Stracathro in March?

Susan Deacon:

As I said in my earlier response to a question on the same subject, such issues are matters for local resolution. I am keen to ensure that they are discussed and resolved effectively at local level. I refer Irene McGugan to my earlier answer to Mr Welsh.


“Making it work together”

19. Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executivewhether it will provide a breakdown of the total cost of the launch of "Making it work together: A programme for government" on 6 September 1999. (S1O-314) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The total cost of the launch of "Making it work together" is estimated at around £4,300.

Phil Gallie:

I thank the minister for his answer. Given the perception that the Parliament should be visible around the country, what provisions have been made for the Parliament's committees to hold meetings, as required, in every town and village throughout Scotland?

I do not think that that is

a matter for the minister. Do you want to comment, Mr McConnell?

No. To be fair to my colleagues, a member has to ask a supplementary that is relevant to the initial question.

That is right.


Local Government Finance

20. Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP):

As well as welcoming Dafydd Wigley to the chamber, we should welcome back the sadly missed Keith Raffan. To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to ensure that Scottish local authorities are fully cognisant with the terms of the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998. (S1O-332)

The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell):

It is essentially a matter for the local authorities themselves to ensure that they are fully aware of the terms of the act, but I have spoken to Councillor Norman Murray, the president of COSLA, who confirmed that COSLA is writing to councils to draw their attention to the importance of this matter.

Mr Gibson:

I thank the minister for his answer, but I am concerned that the Scottish Executive is complacent. Is the minister aware of the survey by the Forum of Private Business in Scotland, which was released on 12 July, which named and shamed Scottish local authorities that are consistently late payers? Does he know that the survey named and shamed 10 local authorities that pay more than 35 per cent of their external invoices after 30 days? Is he aware that those local authorities are thus open to surcharge under the act, which could, in turn, affect council tax levels, reserves and services? With no central record kept of aggregate external invoicing, is he satisfied that he is in a position to act when necessary?

Mr McConnell:

Mr McLeish and I are well aware of the seriousness of the matter and we have had a number of recent meetings about it. I hope that, as he realises the importance of the matter, Mr Gibson will address some of his remarks to Mr Bruce Crawford, who used to run—and is, I believe, still a member of—one of those 10 councils.


Health Care

21. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the action it is taking to prevent heart disease in Scotland. (S1O-323) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): In recent years, the Scottish rates of premature death and illness from the disease have been improving but they remain unacceptably high. Prevention remains a priority for the Executive, as our heart of Scotland demonstration project makes clear.

Karen Whitefield:

Is the minister aware that Lanarkshire has one of the highest levels of heart disease in Scotland? Does she agree that preventive action must begin with children? If so, how will she ensure that children and young adults value healthy eating and exercise?

Susan Deacon:

I am aware of the high rate of heart disease throughout Scotland, which is why I am determined to take action to tackle it along with our other two big killer diseases, strokes and cancer. As I said fairly fully in the recent debate on public health, a number of actions should be taken, including ensuring that people are informed about how diet and lifestyle changes can make a difference. The action that we are taking on smoking will make a difference. We will continue to work with the Health Education Board Scotland, local health boards and schools to raise young people's awareness of what a healthy lifestyle is.


People's Juries

22. Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive why £1 million has been earmarked to support people's juries rather than the existing network of local community and voluntary groups and whether it has any plans to increase funding for such groups. (S1O-333) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): We have allocated £1 million to fund both people's panels and people's juries and a further £2 million to support a national skills development programme for community representatives in social inclusion partnerships and the agencies that work with them.

The Scottish Executive is therefore supporting a variety of mechanisms to ensure that communities are equipped to influence decision making in their areas.

Is the minister really saying that the vast network of community and voluntary groups with years of experience is unable to tell her what the local priorities of an area are?

Ms Alexander:

Far from it. My answer has just revealed that we are providing four times as much money to community representatives and social inclusion partnerships than we are providing to citizens' juries. I hope, therefore, that Shona Robison is happy with how we are proceeding.