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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 07 Feb 2008

Meeting date: Thursday, February 7, 2008


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-492)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

Later today, I will have meetings to take forward the Government's programme for Scotland, and there will be an announcement on the new chair of the Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth games organising committee. That is one of the steps that must be taken to ensure that those games are a resounding success for the whole of Scotland.

I am sure that we are all looking forward to that important appointment.

How many schools does the Scottish National Party Government plan to build during this parliamentary session?

The First Minister:

As Wendy Alexander well knows, we have promised to match Labour's school building programme brick for brick, and that is exactly what we intend to do. Far from being able to forecast the future, Wendy Alexander has had difficulties in telling us what has happened with the schools programme in the past. At First Minister's question time on 4 October last year, she said:

"Let me come armed with the facts and figures, which are that the previous Government built in excess of 300 new schools."—[Official Report, 4 October 2007; c 2466.]

Actually, it built 173 schools. Wendy Alexander is not for the first time having difficulty with facts, figures and calculations.

We have all learned that defence is usually the First Minister's best form of attack. [Interruption.]

Order.

Ms Alexander:

I return to the issue. Labour delivered the largest-ever school building programme in this country's history. We built or refurbished 328 schools and promised to build 250 more, 45 of which were already in the pipeline at the election. Last week, the Minister for Schools and Skills tried to claim credit for those 45 schools to mask the fact that the SNP Government has no school building programme. The First Minister has been in government for nine months. When will he commission his first school?

The First Minister:

The budget, which Wendy Alexander did not support yesterday, includes substantial capital uplift for local councils throughout Scotland. I noticed that the word "refurbished" crept in when Wendy Alexander was giving statistics, and I think that the phrase is "Attack is the best form of defence."

Ms Alexander:

Let me attack. The First Minister has talked money, but he has not promised 250 new or refurbished schools. In October, he pledged in the chamber, as he has done again today, that he would match Labour's school building programme brick for brick. Why then have Dumbarton academy and Elgin high school been cancelled, and Portobello high school and Dunfermline high school been put on hold? If building new schools was an issue for the First Minister in October and he has repeated the brick-for-brick pledge today, why will he not name 250 new schools as his target and bring forward the programme?

The First Minister:

Let us start with the 45 schools, details of which we have announced since we came to office, but let us remember the additional capital expenditure that has been announced for this year's financial programme, as well as the additional capital uplift. [Interruption.]

Order, please.

The First Minister:

Let us also remember the consultation on new and better ways of funding our public services, which will finish on 14 March. This is a starter for 10—the not-for-profit distribution method has substantial advantages over the conventional public-private partnership method, the biggest of which is the fact that the profits go back to the community rather than elsewhere, into private hands.

Ms Alexander:

The pupils and parents of Scotland want new schools, not lectures on public finance. When it comes to new school programmes, even though the Scottish National Party has done nothing more than complete the programmes that Labour put into development and claim credit for them, the First Minister continues to claim that his party will match brick for brick Labour's pledge to build 250 new schools. Perhaps he would like to explain to the Parliament why, as the Scottish Parliament information centre told me yesterday, no new Government-funded PPP projects have started development since the election.

The First Minister:

Forty-five have already been announced and completed since the election.

I say to Wendy Alexander, as gently as possible, that she is not in a fantastic position to lecture anyone on public or, indeed, private finance. If she had wanted to remove me from office, she had a perfect opportunity to do so yesterday. I can only suppose—from the Labour Party's almost unanimous abstention on the budget—that she wants me to continue in office. In the new mood of consensus, let me say that I want Wendy Alexander to continue in office.


Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S3F-493)

I expect to meet the Prime Minister at the British-Irish Council in Dublin in the very near future. Perhaps I should take Annabel Goldie with me, as she seems to be pretty good at reaching agreements.

Annabel Goldie:

There are some offers a girl can refuse. [Laughter.]

In 2004, the then First Minister, Jack McConnell, made a statement to the Parliament about the abhorrent abuse that had taken place in residential care in Scotland over a period of decades. The current First Minister addressed the issue in June of last year, when he made particular reference to the report on Kerelaw. This morning, the Minister for Children and Early Years responded to that review, and the Scottish Government now proposes to set up a Scottish truth and reconciliation forum.

Everyone views with revulsion the abuse of children. As I said in 2004,

"when its perpetrators are those who have been entrusted with the care of children, and in whom those children have placed their fragile trust, it is a particularly vile and odious betrayal."—[Official Report, 1 December 2004; c 12392.]

Anything that helps to shine a light through that period of blackness in Scotland's history is to be welcomed.

However well intended the truth and reconciliation forum is, is the First Minister satisfied that the culture of silence that prevailed and which countenanced the continuance of this depraved and awful activity is being addressed effectively? Will the proposed initiative encourage and support people in coming forward and reporting abuse and fears of potential abuse?

The First Minister:

I thank Annabel Goldie for the way in which she introduced her question on an enormously serious subject. I stand by the statement that the Minister for Children and Early Years made to the Parliament this morning, which outlined a well-balanced approach.

I hope and believe that the answer to Annabel Goldie's specific question is yes. The proposals that Adam Ingram announced will help with the atmosphere of openness and disclosure that is necessary if we are to protect our children, particularly those who are most vulnerable.

Annabel Goldie:

Although we all agree that the first obligation is to support victims who have suffered the nightmare of abuse, equally we must be sure that in providing that support we do not inadvertently prejudice or jeopardise any criminal proceedings, because, for victims, justice is as important as truth and reconciliation. Can the First Minister assure the Parliament that he has sought and received advice from the Lord Advocate that that laudable forum will not compromise such criminal proceedings?

The First Minister:

As Annabel Goldie knows, under long-standing convention I am not meant to say whether I am seeking advice, never mind to disclose specific advice. The statement that the Minister for Children and Early Years made carries the support of the whole Government—it is a well-judged statement. The position in the statement is to address the crimes and the behaviour of the past; that does not preclude criminal action, if criminal action is found to be necessary when the matter goes before the normal judicial processes. However, the minister's statement was also designed to address what we must do in the future to prevent such things from ever happening again and staining Scottish society.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-494)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Nicol Stephen:

A Government press release that was issued this week said:

"a new dental school in Aberdeen is a major priority for the Scottish Government."

The Aberdeen Evening Express said yesterday that the First Minister's plan

"looks like it's been drawn up on the back of a fag packet."

Who is right? Importantly, will the First Minister tell the chamber whether any students at the Aberdeen dental school will have to pay tuition fees?

The First Minister:

The commitment to the dental school is comprehensive, and it has been long awaited in the north-east of Scotland. I am surprised about two things: first, that when Nicol Stephen was in office he never gave such a commitment; and secondly, that he has not found it within himself to welcome the fact that the first students will start at the Aberdeen dental school later this year.

Nicol Stephen:

The dental school is urgently needed—so are more dentists—in the north-east of Scotland, but there is confusion. People cannot apply through the normal university process; the staffing and accommodation are uncertain; and lecturers in dentistry were told that they could be forced to use videolinks to teach their classes from Dundee. However, for all those problems, does the First Minister agree that the biggest issue he needs to tackle concerns the students? Students in Aberdeen will not be allowed to be undergraduates—they must have a first degree already. That means that the student body will be restricted to people who are prepared to undertake eight years of study instead of the normal five, with all the extra costs and extra debt that that involves.

I have spoken today to the university admissions office, which is unable to guarantee that students will avoid tuition fees. The Student Awards Agency for Scotland has said that it will not pay the tuition fees, as the course is a second degree. Will the First Minister take urgent action to get the advice and support for students changed to ensure that they will not pay tuition fees? Will he ensure that those Aberdeen dental students are not disadvantaged?

The First Minister:

I remind Nicol Stephen that this Government is abolishing tuition fees in Scotland. With regard to his detailed questions, Nicol Stephen seems to confuse the transitional arrangements with the long-term position. I would not say that he would do that deliberately, but it is always a suspicion that I have in my mind. He should congratulate the Government on the fact that we will have a dental school in Aberdeen, as opposed to the long years of nothing happening under the Labour-Liberal Executive in which he played a part.

I hope that I can perhaps tempt Annabel Goldie out of the right-wing alliance with the Liberals and the Labour Party on the constitution, and to join me in giving the people of Scotland the right to determine our own future—Nicol Stephen once supported that, but he has reneged on that, too.

I have received a number of requests from members who wish to ask supplementary questions.

Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):

The First Minister is aware that the Ministry of Defence this week gave the green light to the sale of both the Defence Aviation Repair Agency at Almondbank—which employs 350 people in my constituency—and DARA Fleetlands to the small Canadian company Vector Aerospace for only £17 million. Is the First Minister aware that, less than five years ago, £5 million was invested in Almondbank alone, making the £17 million purchase price look like a bargain-basement price? Will he and his Government join me in supporting the joint trade unions in their continued efforts to ensure the future security of their members' jobs? What can he do to help in those efforts?

The First Minister:

As the constituency member knows, the Government has already been involved in seeking to defend the jobs in her constituency. I welcomed, as did John Swinney, the arrival on site of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Ministry of Defence to consider the issue. After the visit, we made further representations. I was disappointed that a decision was taken so quickly after the meeting, because I did not see how the parliamentary under-secretary could have properly assimilated all the information that she received on the visit.

I am extremely concerned about a number of aspects, but the underlying concern is obviously job security in Perthshire. I join the constituency member in expressing that concern. The normal provisions and support of the Scottish Government will be in place as we seek to co-operate with the trade unions and the workers to advance and protect their position.

Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

Is the First Minister aware that the community on the island of Luing in Argyll currently has no lifeline ferry service because of the industrial action affecting Argyll and Bute Council? Does he acknowledge the distress that is being caused to people on Luing, whose children cannot go to school in Oban, and who have no way of getting off the island? What will the Scottish Government do about that serious situation? What back-up exists for such crucial lifeline ferry services?

The First Minister:

As the member knows, a fixed-link ferry project is being appraised. That will be a matter for the local council in the first instance, but I shall consider the matter from a Government point of view and write to the member about his constituency interest.

Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):

The First Minister is aware of just how important the private landlord registration scheme is in protecting constituents such as mine from antisocial behaviour and from rogue landlords who operate, at best, on the margins of organised crime. In the interests of brevity, can we take as read the First Minister's usual defence that the current situation is not his fault? Will he focus on how his Administration will progress private landlord registration?

I want to ask two specific questions. Will private landlord registration be a guaranteed part of single outcome agreements with local authorities? What is the First Minister's specific target for the level of registration to be reached by this time next year to reassure my constituents that the issue is a continuing priority for the Executive?

The First Minister:

Let us consider what has happened over the past year. As I understand it, this Government started with 15 per cent registration, inherited from Johann Lamont's party. The figure is now 55 per cent. That seems to me to be accelerated progress over the past nine months of this Government.

The issue will be part of discussions with local authorities on single outcome agreements. I am reminded of the words of the unnamed councillor in Glasgow who was looking at the general process of the Scottish Government. What did that Labour councillor say? "God bless the SNP Government."

What actions will the First Minister's Government take in relation to the forecast unemployment of 123 people when the Tenma mouldings company closes in Cumbernauld in April?

The normal processes of Government to support workers and workforces facing redundancy will move into operation. I assure the member that we will be quite prepared to discuss with him any specific queries on what those processes are.


Scottish Bank-notes

To ask the First Minister what representations the Scottish Government has made to the United Kingdom Government to protect the legal position of Scottish bank-notes. (S3F-496)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The Scottish Government was not afforded the opportunity of making representations to the UK Government on its proposal to legislate on the Scottish bank-note issue, as Her Majesty's Treasury made no contact at either ministerial or official level to inform us of what was in last week's consultation document.

The proposals have been buried in a wide-ranging consultation document on financial stability. The Scottish Government—and, I am sure, many others—will respond to that consultation in the strongest possible terms. I know that a wide range of opinion exists, stretching to the former First Minister—my immediate predecessor. This morning, I was delighted to see that he is joining the campaign to save the Scottish bank-note issue and Scottish bank-notes.

Keith Brown:

Does the First Minister agree that it is extremely ironic that such an appalling measure has been proposed on the ground of financial stability, given that the failures of the Labour Government and the Bank of England's regulatory regime mean that taxpayers in Scotland are being asked to assume financial responsibility for a share of the £24 billion debts of Northern Rock? Does he think that it is also ironic that the right of Scottish banks to issue notes is threatened by a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer and a Scottish Prime Minister?

In defending the rights of Scottish banks to issue notes, will the First Minister also defend the rights of people to use Scottish bank-notes without hindrance in the rest of the UK?

The First Minister:

I remember that I have been invited to sign the Scottish Daily Express petition, which Jack McConnell signed yesterday. I will do that later today.

I hope that the issue can unite the Parliament and Scotland. It is ludicrous to suggest that the Scottish note issue, which has continued since 1695, is a threat to financial stability. I worked in the financial sector for some time. Every 20 years or so the Treasury would come up with a scheme that was basically about grabbing money for the Treasury at the expense of the Scottish financial sector and the Scottish economy. I regard the most recent threat to the note issue as a smash-and-grab raid on Scottish bank-notes. I hope that every member will support Scottish bank-notes, realise the seriousness of the situation and rally to the various campaigns to save the Scottish bank-note issue.

George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):

May I tell the First Minister that he is mixing up two issues? The Scottish Daily Express campaign is to make Scottish bank-notes acceptable everywhere south of the border. Will he confess that what he has been saying recently represents yet another of his publicity stunts?



I have not finished.

Will the First Minister acknowledge that the real threat to Scottish bank-notes comes not from the Treasury but from independence, when Scottish bank-notes would be replaced by euros?

The First Minister:

It is unfortunate that Lord George has not read the European constitution, which respects traditional banking practice—unlike HM Treasury, it seems. A Clydesdale Bank spokesperson said of the Treasury proposal:

"If this were to go ahead, it would force us to consider whether issuing banknotes would be viable in the future, a position we do not want to be forced into."

When I said that I hoped the issue would unite Scotland, I was—obviously—excluding Lord George Foulkes from such national unity. However, I have hope for the future. When one member voted against the Scottish National Party budget yesterday I assumed that it was Lord George Foulkes, but he had abstained. He is halfway up the road to Damascus.


Fuel Poverty

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government is doing to mitigate the impact of the latest increases in gas and electricity prices on the most vulnerable people in our society. (S3F-509)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

Ministers have met representatives of the energy industry and the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets and given the clear message that they must do all that they can to protect vulnerable consumers. We will keep up the pressure on companies and on ministers in Westminster. We are sending a clear message that we do not want an energy-rich but fuel-poor Scotland.

The Government is investing £138 million in our fuel poverty programmes between now and 2011. For the benefit of members, I say that we are boosting this year's programme and have already delivered more installations of central heating systems in 10 months than the previous Administration did in the entire year 2006-07.

Michael McMahon:

I am sure that the First Minister is aware that Scottish Power has ended backcharging for customers in other areas of the United Kingdom and that he shares my view that that is unfair on Scottish customers who will continue to be in debt through no fault of their own. His Minister for Communities and Sport, Stewart Maxwell, agreed to meet Scottish Power to discuss the issue. Has that meeting taken place? If so, what was the outcome? If nothing has changed, will the First Minister intervene personally to address this urgent problem?

The First Minister:

Yes, the meeting has taken place. I will arrange for minister Maxwell to write to the member on the matter. When we are faced by sharply rising fuel costs, we must do all that we can to ensure that energy companies in Scotland match up to their responsibilities to the most vulnerable sections of society. As members know, the administration and regulation of energy companies is reserved to the Westminster Government. That said, no member should be shy about making the point that it would be a huge and disgraceful irony if Scotland were to continue in a situation of energy plenty but fuel poverty.

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):

Is the First Minister aware that one of the lessons that has been learned from the free central heating scheme is that elderly people are either turning off their heating systems or incurring excessive bills because they do not know—or, in some cases, sadly, forget—how to adjust their system's timings and temperature? The issue is one with which I have some sympathy. Regular checks are needed on the operation of the systems. Will he and his Government work with the gas and electricity companies, and the central heating contractors, to ensure that consumers—particularly older consumers—are properly and regularly supported in making the best use of their systems? I ask that in light of rising fuel prices.

Yes. The point is entirely fair. I will respond to the request from Robert Brown.


General Medical Services Contract

To ask the First Minister what outcomes the Scottish Government is seeking to achieve through the new GMS contract negotiations with the British Medical Association. (S3F-510)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

We have consistently made it clear, most recently through the "Better Health, Better Care" action plan, that flexible access to general practitioner services is crucial to our vision of a more patient-centred national health service in Scotland.

Like all public servants, GPs strive to offer services to the public in a way that best suits the needs of their patients and recognises the challenges for those at work, those caring for others, and those with geographical challenges in making and keeping appointments. The offer on the GP contract for 2008-09 directly reflects that need for appropriate and flexible access. We continue to have discussions with the Scottish General Practitioner Committee on that important area.

If GPs accept the offer, it would mean additional funding of £19 million in Scotland, including £9.5 million of new money, which will be provided through the spending review, in exchange for around two and a half hours of additional patient access to GPs, per week, for the average practice. I believe—the Government believes—that that represents a fair deal.

Ross Finnie:

I am grateful to the First Minister for his detailed response in respect of his aims and objectives for flexible hours. However, does he not agree that the current negotiations on extended and more flexible hours, with which and in which his Government has become engaged, will not achieve that aim? Among others, one reason for that is that the negotiations are based on a GP working on her or his own. Does he agree that the outcome that patients need the negotiations to secure is 24-hour care, with a resolution of the current unsustainable out-of-hours care provision?

The First Minister:

We are also looking at out-of-hours care, but the current negotiations are specifically on the issue of flexible opening. I am aware that one reaction is to say that the terms of the UK deal are not tailored to the needs of the Scottish population. In terms of the UK framework, we are anxious that the result is not a breakdown of communications and, perhaps, the imposition of an arrangement. As we do in all our dealings with the communities and representatives of Scotland, we would much prefer to reach agreement in an amicable manner. Certainly, the agreement in Scotland—with the additional funds that are being pledged in Scotland—will be designed to meet Scottish circumstances.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

I welcome the First Minister's comments about the additional £9.5 million for GPs should they accept the deal, which is distinct from the situation in England, where GPs will be penalised if they do not accept. What do patients groups say about the negotiations?

The First Minister:

To answer that directly, Jean Turner, who is known to many members and who is the executive director of the Scotland Patients Association, has said:

"Illness does not just happen between the hours of nine and five. There are always going to be emergencies. I welcome this proposal because people do need a more flexible service. Extending doctors' hours has got to be good for patients."

That is a useful quotation to remember. Few would disagree with Jean Turner's response on behalf of the Patients Association.

Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):

If the First Minister answers my question without insulting me, I might be in need of a GP service, although I should warn him that if his insult is too gratuitous, he may be in need of a GP service. I am sure that members throughout the Parliament support proposals to improve access to GPs. Will the First Minister give a specific assurance that the current proposals to extend GP hours will not have any detrimental impact on existing GP services? What is the timescale for implementation?

The First Minister:

Of course the proposals will not have an effect on existing services. The services that are being proposed are additional, with additional money. The member will consider that to be a very direct answer. I think that our relationship is blossoming—why else would she, too, have abstained, rather than voted against in the vote on the budget yesterday?

I hope that nobody is in need of a GP after today's First Minister's question time.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—