Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Resumed debate.
We return to the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer, which I notified you of earlier. In the last division this morning, on amendment 1, in the name of Bill Aitken, for some reason my vote was not recorded, and I am down as having not voted. I make it clear that I voted no. Could you assure us that the consoles are being checked and that they are operating properly?
Yes, the consoles are now being checked and your no vote is duly on the record of Parliament.
On a point of order—[Interruption.]
Order.
First, I ask you to accept my apologies for not being here when you called me earlier. I did not appreciate that there would be an early start.
I am in the same position as George Lyon, in that I voted against amendment 1 but my vote has not been recorded. Four weeks ago I reported a console two along from me that would accept a no vote but not a yes vote. I would appreciate it if the consoles could be checked.
I understand that the consoles have been checked, but I do not know the results of the check. I take the matter seriously. Members' votes should be duly recorded at the time. I will continue my investigations.
Section 17—Authorisations: supplementary
Amendment 2 not moved.
Section 18—Powers exercisable in pursuance of authorisations
Amendment 52 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendment 52 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a two-minute division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 86, Against 19, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 52 agreed to.
Amendment 53 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendment 53 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 86, Against 20, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 53 agreed to.
Amendment 3 not moved.
Section 19—Powers under section 18: supplementary
Amendment 4 not moved.
Section 20—Guidance in relation to dispersal of groups
Amendment 5 not moved.
After section 20
Amendment 96 moved—[Stewart Stevenson]—and agreed to.
Section 22—Interpretation of Part 3
Amendment 6 not moved.
Section 23—Authorisation of closure notice
We come to group 8, on the closure of premises and the circumstances in which authorisation may be granted. Amendment 97, in the name of Irene Oldfather, is grouped with amendments 98, 87 and 73.
The purpose of amendment 98 is to add to the definition of "premises" footpaths, roads and open spaces. In conjunction with amendment 97, it would provide for the serving of closure notices in respect of footpaths, roads and open spaces that are not being used for the purposes for which they were intended. The principle behind the amendment is to give power and voice to communities that are suffering at the hands of youths who congregate on disused pathways and waste ground and disrupt the peace of people living in the neighbourhood. In this instance it seems to me that prevention is better than cure, as the minister said, and that we need to consider providing for the closure of such areas instead of people needing to call out the police night after night.
In my constituency, one community is extremely frustrated that the council is unable to close off a pathway to a derelict garage site, where youths regularly indulge in antisocial behaviour. In Scotland, it is possible to close public paths by one of two routes—under either section 34 of the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 or section 68 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984—but neither allows closure because the property concerned is affected by antisocial behaviour.
I acknowledge the complexity of the matter, but local residents want an assurance that access to derelict ground can be stopped where it is having a negative impact on communities.
In a sense, amendment 97 is a probing amendment that identifies a problem. I would welcome the minister's views on the best route by which local authorities can pursue the matter. At present, there appears to be a gap in the legislation.
I move amendment 97.
We have no difficulty with Irene Oldfather's proposals and will listen to what the minister has to say in that regard. I suspect that we will have no difficulty with amendment 73, unless the minister persuades us that we should have.
The Law Society of Scotland asked me to lodge amendment 87 for reasons that I think are quite right and proper. The simple position is that the licensing acts provide for the necessary powers and the Law Society of Scotland believes that it is a recipe for confusion to provide an alternative power that involves a different set of decision makers in closing premises that are licensed and so which are covered by the licensing acts.
The argument is that licensed premises appear to fall within the definition of "premises" in the bill. In particular, the Law Society highlights difficulties with how the bill's provisions might interface with any future changes that might be made in line with the recommendations of Sheriff Principal Nicholson. It suggests that licensing boards are the bodies that are best placed to deal with licensed premises.
I lodged amendment 87 in the belief that the Parliament should discuss the issue and dispose of it as necessary to ensure that we are quite clear about the situation in relation to licensed premises. I will listen with interest to the minister's response before coming to a final conclusion about how I wish to pursue the matter with which the amendment deals.
Amendment 97 seeks to add extra conditions that must be met by a senior police officer before he or she is able to authorise a closure notice in respect of a premises within the extended definition of premises offered by amendment 98. Before a closure notice could be served on such premises, the senior police officer would have to be satisfied, and have received confirmation from the local authority for the area in which the premises are situated, that the premises
"are not being ordinarily used for the purposes for which they were originally intended."
Amendment 98 seeks to extend the definition of "premises" to include: any footpath, within the meaning of section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1998; any road, within the meaning of section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1998; and any open space, within the meaning of section 336 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. The definition of "premises" in the bill is already widely drawn to include any land or other place—whether enclosed or not—and any outbuildings that are, or are used as, part of the premises. Although premises are already widely defined for the purposes of part 4, other provisions in part 4 clarify that the provisions are aimed primarily at dealing with premises in which people live or that people own. We do not think that the powers would readily be adapted for use in relation to footpaths and roads. In policy terms, we do not believe that that is the appropriate means of addressing the concerns raised about disused footpaths or roads.
I am aware of several situations in which local authorities have received requests from residents—individuals and groups—to stop up a pathway because of perceived problems of antisocial behaviour, and I can well understand the reasons behind such requests. For the most part, we would encourage the use of alternative remedies to deal with antisocial behaviour before paths are closed, such as improved lighting or the range of powers that are available to deal with crime and antisocial behaviour, including powers elsewhere in the bill.
However, provisions are available for the stopping up of paths. While none of those is specifically for the purpose of preventing crime and antisocial behaviour, local authorities can make a case in response to complaints. In particular, section 34 of the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 allows for a public path to be closed on the ground that it is no longer required for public use. When commenced, the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 will also be relevant. Section 28 of that act allows for judicial determination, by way of summary application to a sheriff, of the existence and extent of access rights and rights of way. Several other considerations would also apply, such as whether the indicated right of way had been established or was merely asserted and whether there would be any detriment to the wider community by stopping up the path.
Following this morning's debate, I suggest that the dispersal of groups power could also be relevant, although it will be a matter for the police and local authorities, engaging with members of the community that is affected by antisocial behaviour, to consider the most appropriate solutions to the problems in an area. Equally important is the requirement in the bill for authorities, the police and registered social landlords to prepare local antisocial behaviour strategies that will have a strong focus on prevention as well as enforcement as a means of reducing the incidence of disorder.
Therefore, I suggest to Irene Oldfather that a range of options exists for dealing with the problem that she seeks to address. Having said that, I can say that we are prepared to consider the issue further in conjunction with local authorities and other key stakeholders, with a view to seeing whether anything more can usefully and practically be done, particularly in the context of the planning regime. On that basis, I hope that Irene Oldfather will be prepared to withdraw her amendment.
Stewart Stevenson's amendment 87 seeks to exclude licensed premises from the closure powers. I expect that the first forum for persistent antisocial behaviour associated with pubs and clubs would be the licensing system—local licensing boards are best placed to deal with licensed premises. However, the licensing system is not primarily concerned with the prevention of antisocial behaviour. When antisocial behaviour takes place on licensed premises, there is no reason why it should be treated differently from antisocial behaviour elsewhere. Pubs and clubs should not be excluded from the provisions of the bill. Of course, I understand that it will be important for the new provisions to interface with the current licensing system and with the recommendations that result from the review of licensing law carried out by Sheriff Principal Nicholson.
A similar amendment was lodged by Donald Gorrie at stage 2 and it was rejected by the Communities Committee. I have listened to the arguments made then and today for excluding licensed premises. As a former councillor, I am not in the business of taking away councils' powers. It is essential that those powers should be available for the police to use in relation to any premises that are likely to become the epicentres of outbreaks of serious and persistent antisocial behaviour.
Amendment 73 seeks, as a result of a commitment given by me at stage 2, to make the regulation-making power of Scottish ministers under section 23(2) subject to the affirmative rather than the negative resolution procedure in the Parliament. Section 23(2) gives ministers the power to specify by regulations premises or descriptions of premises in respect of which an authorisation may not be given. We acknowledge that there will be some premises that should not be subject to the provisions, and that is why the bill includes regulation-making powers, which will allow us to get the detail right and will give us the flexibility to respond to changing circumstances. We will consider carefully which premises should be exempted from the provisions and the Parliament will have the opportunity to consider such regulations in due course.
I invite the Parliament to approve amendment 73, I ask Irene Oldfather to withdraw amendment 97 and not to move amendment 98, and I ask Stewart Stevenson not to move amendment 87.
Irene Oldfather's amendments are certainly interesting and I think that they underline a genuine difficulty. However, we are not satisfied that amendments 97 and 98 provide the solutions.
It is obvious that amendment 97 would require local authority involvement, which would complicate matters unnecessarily. In situations in which there are problems of the kind that Irene Oldfather has properly identified, speedy action is required. In my experience, nothing to do with local authorities results in speedy action. That is a difficulty.
In amendment 98, Irene Oldfather is perfectly correct to draw attention to the fact that many of the loci of disorder are paths and footways, especially when they are in isolated areas. Something should be done to tackle the problem. I heard what the minister said and I think that, on balance, it represents the best route forward.
Mr Stevenson lodged amendment 87 at the behest of the Law Society of Scotland. That puts me in a quandary because, although I disagree frequently with Mr Stevenson, I seldom disagree with the Law Society of Scotland. However, a point has perhaps been missed. It is true that the licensing boards can take sanctions against people who run their premises in a disorderly manner; the ultimate sanction in that respect is the withdrawal of such people's licences. I point out to Mr Stevenson and, through him, to the Law Society that licensing boards up and down Scotland tend to sit on a quarterly basis. If one is to cope with a difficult situation, speed is of the essence. We should bear it in mind that, if there are objections to the renewal of a licence, due notice has to be given to the licensee. That means that four months could pass between the inception of trouble and its resolution. Therefore, I think that the matter is best left to the legislation.
Amendment 73 is acceptable.
I thank Irene Oldfather for her ingenuity in seeking to incorporate an important issue in the bill. I recognise the issue that she has highlighted, as I have had to deal with it in my constituency. Although I acknowledge what the minister has said, it is important that we obtain a commitment that the matter be re-examined.
I will provide an example from my area of a problem with private lanes. The fact that the lanes are private means that they are not maintained, lit or kept safe, but the fact that they are lanes means that they are deemed to be rights of way and so cannot be closed off. Local people in my constituency have got together and have managed to secure the agreement of the police, the fire service, the environmental health department and, more generally, the council itself that the lanes should have gates at either end of them, both because they have become a place for people to gather and because a great deal of difficulty is being caused in neighbouring properties, which are being damaged and subjected to graffiti.
The difficulty is that, in order to put up the gates, which they are happy to pay for, the local people have to seek planning permission. To do that costs a significant amount of money and there is no guarantee that planning permission will be obtained, because the lanes could be deemed, technically, to be a right of way—even though everyone acknowledges that they are the site of a social problem. The fact that we are asking the planning system to address that situation is nonsense.
The minister said that we could use other powers, such as the power to disperse groups but, if we were to put gates at either end of the lanes, we would not need to police them in the way in which they are being policed at the moment. No matter how good the group dispersal power will be, it lacks that simplicity of approach. If a simple, practical measure such as putting up gates could be used, we should make it easy for communities to do that. That is not what happens currently.
In another part of my constituency, there is a private lane beside an estate. Although the lane has become a vehicle for young and older people to abuse the residents, it is not possible for the residents to pay for a gate to be put up to prevent the difficulty, even though it would cost them to do something different. I do not agree that, when such situations become antisocial behaviour problems, we should try to find a solution—at the cost of residents—in the planning system. I understand the technical issues that the minister raised, but I ask for a commitment that the Executive will return to what is an important issue. People are not looking for the police to carry out hard attacks on such problems; they have come up with simple solutions that they are happy to facilitate, but the system works against their doing that.
Johann Lamont has dealt well with the issue of footpaths. We must all have experienced that problem, and it is important that it is dealt with so that the amount of antisocial behaviour that is associated with footpaths is properly dealt with. A lot of planning separated pedestrians from cars, which is good, and gave us nice footways to walk along, but unfortunately, those footways attract the wrong sort of people, and that must be dealt with.
On excluding pubs from the closure powers, it is important that the potential confusion be dealt with, but I accept the argument that it would be reasonable to have something on the statute book until we legislate on Sheriff Principal Nicholson's recommendations, which will take a wee while. I also accept that, even when licensing laws deal with the matter, there may be merit in covering it in the bill, which would enable it to be dealt with more quickly if a serious misuse of a pub were to arise. On reflection, I accept the argument for keeping pubs in the bill, but I hope that the matter will be dealt with more fully in the forthcoming legislative proposals on licensing. At the moment, I oppose Stewart Stevenson's amendment.
I am pleased that the minister recognises the problem and is willing to consider how we can address it. Some of her suggestions under the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 have already been tried by my local authority. North Ayrshire Council tried to effect a closure under that act, but it was refused by the reporter and, subsequently, the Scottish ministers. An approach was then made to the Executive with a view to attempting to make an order under the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984, but the council was advised that that, too, could be problematic. There is clearly a problem, but I hear what the minister says about wanting to work with the local authorities to find a solution, and if she can give me a commitment to do that, I would be happy to withdraw the amendment.
I am more than happy to examine the matter further with Irene Oldfather, and if she has not had a satisfactory reply, we need to examine that. However, we are introducing a number of measures that could be effective, such as the antisocial behaviour orders for under-16s and the dispersal powers. I am more than happy to work with Irene Oldfather and Johann Lamont to find ways to address the problem.
Ms Oldfather, are you seeking leave to withdraw amendment 97?
Yes.
Do members agree?
No.
In that case, the question is, that amendment 97 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 17, Against 93, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 97 disagreed to.
Section 27—Application: determination
Group 9 is on the determination of applications for closure orders. Amendment 54, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 55 to 57.
Amendments 54 and 55 seek to bring Patrick Harvie's equivalent stage 2 amendments into line with the drafting style that is adopted elsewhere in the bill. Those amendments added factors to which the sheriff must have regard before making a closure order in respect of the premises concerned. The intention was that the sheriff will take into account the interests of occupants—particularly any vulnerable occupants—of residential premises that are the subject of an application for a closure order.
I explained at stage 2 that we did not believe that those amendments were strictly necessary in order to ensure that those occupants' interests are considered. In any circumstance, we are confident that the police and the local authority would not pursue action that would increase a person's vulnerability, unless there was an overriding need for action to protect the community. However, the Communities Committee was of the view that Patrick Harvie's amendments would offer an additional protection to the vulnerable and I am happy to concur with that view.
Amendment 56 is a minor drafting amendment, which seeks to bring the drafting into line with section 24(5)(b)(i), which refers to
"a person who habitually resides in the premises".
Amendment 57 does two things. First, it seeks to make a link with the change that is proposed in amendment 56, so as to make the drafting more consistent. Secondly, it seeks to alter the wording slightly, as
"has not been responsible for antisocial behaviour which has occurred in the premises"
did not seem to be quite right. For example, a vulnerable tenant could be bullied into allowing others to use their property in a manner that gave rise to antisocial behaviour. That could allow doubt as to whether that tenant could be said to be "responsible" for the behaviour. We think that that would be best avoided by using wording that is more consistent with that which is used elsewhere in part 4, where we refer to a person who
"has engaged in antisocial behaviour".
Therefore—[Interruption.]
Just one moment, please, minister. Could members please keep quiet?
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Therefore, we could refer to persons who have not "engaged in antisocial behaviour" on the premises, which would provide a much clearer link to the committing of the antisocial act. I invite the Parliament to support the amendments in this group.
I move amendment 54.
Without wanting to take up too much time, I wish to place on record the fact that I still believe that the amendments to which the Communities Committee agreed at stage 2 provide an additional safeguard. I also put on record my appreciation of the fact that the Executive has not sought to overturn them. I thank the minister for that.
Amendment 54 agreed to.
Amendments 55 to 57 moved—[Mrs Mary Mulligan]—and agreed to.
Section 35—Procedural rules
Group 10 is on closure orders in general. Amendment 58, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 59.
Amendment 58 seeks to delete section 35, the purpose of which was to clear up any doubt about whether, for rule-making purposes, proceedings under part 4 are civil proceedings. On reflection, we do not believe that there is in fact any scope for doubt and it therefore seems sensible to drop the section.
Amendment 59 seeks to add a general guidance provision to cover part 4 in a similar vein to provisions covering parts 2 and 3. The guidance will apply in relation to persons discharging functions and can include persons who are performing duties as well as those who are exercising powers.
I said at stage 2 that we would be reinforcing various points in relation to closure powers in guidance both to the police and to local authorities, for example, in relation to the police's obligation to consult the local authority before authorising a closure notice. It will be important for the local authority to consider the financial impact on, and welfare of, the household affected, including how it would deal with a homelessness application. I hope that making the guidance statutory provides further reassurance that those responsible for implementing the provisions will have to give due regard to the needs of the vulnerable.
I move amendment 58.
The question is, that amendment 58 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
The result of the division is: For 103, Against 6, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 58 agreed to.
After section 35
Amendment 59 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Section 36—Interpretation of Part 4
Amendments 98 and 87 not moved.
Section 46B—Meaning of "relevant place" and "relevant property"
Group 11 is on interpretation of noise nuisance. Amendment 99, in the name of Pauline McNeill, is in a group on its own.
I welcome the provisions in part 5, which deals with noise nuisance. That unwarranted noise is included in the bill is a very welcome part of the antisocial behaviour strategy. Noise can cause problems and disruption in communities and many of my constituents certainly suffer from unwarranted noise.
In general, the complaints that I receive fall into three categories. First, there is domestic noise, which is generally internal noise in properties. I have received letters from throughout Scotland about a motion that I lodged in the Parliament that mentioned wooden and laminate flooring. The noise in question is amusing to some people but is a real problem and is the number 1 domestic complaint for Glasgow City Council.
The second type of complaint relates to marches and processions and people on them being able to gather so early in the morning. The matter is covered by the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, which specifies that it is a matter for the police and the local authority to determine the date, time and route of a march. The complaints that I am talking about involve the times at which marches can happen—7.30 am on a Saturday morning is a regular starting time on Dumbarton Road in my constituency of Glasgow Kelvin. [Interruption.] Are you finished, Duncan?
The third problem that has been relayed to me is that of construction noise. Industrial noise can continue for six or seven days a week. The matter is dealt with under the Control of Pollution Act 1974. [Interruption.] Duncan McNeil is putting me off—I say to Margaret Curran that that is antisocial behaviour.
There are various acts that deal with the serious problem in question and I have outlined the three categories into which complaints fall.
The issue is not necessarily about curbing or stopping construction or marches and processions. I want to ensure that the powers that local authorities have to determine when a level of noise is permitted are entirely a matter for them. The guidance to the various acts—and it is only guidance—means that all local authorities are observing the limits of Monday to Saturday, 7.30 am until 10 pm. However, for some communities it can be a big issue if they are enduring a high level of noise. Some local authorities feel that if they were to vary from the guidance, they might be challenged. I want to ensure that local authorities have the absolute power to determine, in every circumstance in which they think that it is appropriate, both the time when the noise is permitted and its extent.
I put on record my thanks to the clerks of the Communities Committee for assisting me in drafting the amendment, although I am sure that the minister will say that it does not achieve what I am trying to achieve. To that extent, it is a probing amendment. I am looking for a commitment from the Executive that it recognises the real problem of external noise in communities and that it will give both the police and the local authorities the powers to deal with it.
I move amendment 99.
The first ASBO should go to Duncan McNeil.
Hear, hear.
Well, there are ASBOs for the over-16s—and I am not talking about his weight. [Laughter.] A bit of hilarity is at least welcome noise.
Section 46B is very important not just for the reasons that Pauline McNeill mentioned. I want to make sure that, if someone is sitting in their garden and someone else is playing loud music, or even if they are in their flat or house and a car is parked outside with music blaring out of it, the guidance can be enforced. However, I would like clarification of amendment 99, which Pauline said is a probing amendment. I am concerned that if the amendment were agreed to, every local authority could have a different way of looking at noise coming from accommodation that was "under construction".
As someone who sometimes feels as though she lives in the middle of a building site, I have been woken up at 7 o'clock in the morning by the noise of scaffolding construction and so on. I am sure that many other people have had that experience, too. It is not just the scaffolding and the construction noise; there are also workmen who like a bit of hilarity—as does Duncan McNeil—and who talk loudly and play loud music in the building. It is very difficult to find out exactly where the noise is coming from in the middle of the town.
I would welcome the minister's clarification of whether it is possible to make such amendments to the bill that would enable local authorities to tell construction companies and builders that they cannot start work at 7 o'clock in the morning and at weekends. The noise is a nuisance not just between Monday and Friday, but on Sunday mornings as well sometimes. I would like the minister to tell us whether there is some way in which we could give the local authorities that power—if not in this bill, in some other form of legislation.
In the course of this debate, I have been convulsed with an amusing mental picture of people causing tremendous noise with pneumatic drills and, simultaneously, playing flutes. I do not think that the amendment will be agreed to, but it raises some interesting points. There is a genuine issue with regard to construction noise, although people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. With work on the Holyrood building going on 24 hours a day, we should perhaps be considering our neighbours down there.
Although there is an issue, I am not convinced that amendment 99 is the best way of addressing it. It seems a bit over-prescriptive, although it is interesting nonetheless. We will listen with interest to what the minister has to say. There is possibly a way in which the aim of the amendment could be achieved, but I am not certain that the amendment is that way.
I speak with some degree of trepidation, as the debate has been particularly lively. I mean no disrespect, but it has been unexpectedly lively. I promise Pauline McNeill that I will pay attention.
I will take members through the difficulties with amendment 99 and, I hope, propose some possible solutions for addressing the matter. After all, it is a genuine issue. Indeed, Pauline McNeill has raised a number of issues that we should respond to because they are serious for the people who experience them.
Although we know that certain issues stem from noise on construction sites, part 5 is intended not to deal with that type of noise but to tackle the problem of antisocial noise that is emitted from existing buildings and structures, primarily domestic premises. We foresee some difficulty in covering noise from construction sites in part 5 and consider that existing provisions deal more appropriately with that type of noise. For example, we might face one or two practical difficulties in deciding who should be served with a warning or a fixed-penalty notice. As the penalty limit of level 2 on the standard scale is geared to domestic noise offences rather than commercial offences, the offences set out in the amendment would take us on to a different scale.
Sections 60 and 61 of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 set out a regime to deal with noise from construction sites. For example, a person can apply to a local authority under section 61 of that act for prior consent to carry on construction works. Alternatively, section 60 enables a local authority to serve a notice that imposes requirements on the way in which construction, alteration or maintenance works on buildings or structures are carried out. That notice may specify the plant or machinery to be used, the hours during which the works may be carried on or the level of noise that may be emitted.
When either granting consent under section 61 or serving a notice under section 60, the local authority must have regard to certain matters including any code of practice issued under part III of the 1974 act and the need to protect people in the locality in which the premises are situated from the effects of noise. Nonetheless, as it is clear that some outstanding issues have to be addressed, we must find out whether the existing provisions are operating. As a result, I want to give further consideration to how we pursue the matter.
Pauline McNeill's point about the noise from marches—no matter whether that means from flute playing or from the other things that people do on marches—was significant. The member will be aware that we are embarking on a broad review of how marches impact on our communities and that might be a better place to explore a number of her points. As a minister who will be involved in that review, I give a commitment to do that properly.
Pauline McNeill has rightly assessed that we will ask her not to press amendment 99. However, given the scale of the concern across the chamber, it is appropriate that I give a formal commitment to meet her to go through the detail of this matter and find the proper vehicles to pursue it. In response to Sandra White, I have to say that I believe that it might be more appropriate to use guidance in this respect.
Although I appreciate that the substance of amendment 99 does not fit neatly with what the bill is trying to achieve, I felt that lodging it provided a good opportunity to probe the Executive on the matter. I am quite delighted with the minister's response that there is a genuine problem and that, although powers to address it exist, we might need to check whether they are as strong as they can be and that they cannot be challenged. As far as I understand it, local authorities have the same guidance and it is entirely a matter for them whether they use it. It would be useful to find out whether they have all the powers that they need and whether they are able to exercise them. On that basis, I seek the chamber's leave to withdraw amendment 99.
Pauline McNeill seeks the chamber's leave to withdraw amendment 99. Are members agreed?
No.
We will then have to take the decision on the amendment. The question is, that amendment 99 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 22, Against 84, Abstentions 6.
Amendment 99 disagreed to.
Section 53—Antisocial behaviour notices
Amendment 100, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 101, 102, 104, 115, 118, 120, 121, 123 to 131 and 133 to 138.
I take the opportunity to apologise to Bill Aitken on the point of order that he raised during this morning's meeting. I would, in all circumstances, attempt not to lodge amendments late and I genuinely apologise for doing so. We were responding to a range of issues that came up at the committee stage, so there is an explanation. We tried to communicate with the committee, but I accept the point that Bill Aitken made and I put on record our apology to him.
This group of amendments deals with minor technical and drafting changes in parts 7 and 8. Because of our response to the committee and the scale of the changes that the committee's recommendations have enforced on the Executive, I must propose a range of technical amendments. I hope that members will bear with me as I go through them.
The bulk of the proposed changes avoid using the term "agent" and refer only to persons who act for a landlord in relation to a lease. By removal of the term "agent", we seek to eliminate the possibility of confusion arising from its use. The term has a specific legal interpretation that has been the subject of much legal debate. We feel that the best way to refer to those who act for a landlord in relation to a lease is simply to describe them as persons. Retaining the term "agent" would add nothing and could raise more questions than answers.
The only amendments in the group that are not concerned with the term "agent" are amendments 100, 104 and 138, which are just technical ones to ensure consistency in terminology or to make minor corrections.
I move amendment 100.
I thank the minister for her generous apology, which is entirely accepted.
I am slightly bemused by the amendments in the group because the law of agency is not particularly complex. I wonder whether the minister's advisers have become hung up on the idea that an agent must be a solicitor, a property agent or an accountant and so feel that individuals or persons may fall through a bureaucratic crack in the floor. As Mr Jackson will no doubt confirm, recent case law defines the fact that an agent does not have to fulfil the terms of the law of contract, which is that there be capacity and consideration and other necessary ingredients.
Anybody acting on behalf of another is, by virtue of so doing, an agent. If I asked the minister whether she wanted a cup of coffee and went to the tea bar to get her one, I would be acting as an agent on her behalf. Therefore, I wonder whether the amendments are particularly necessary. If the minister is satisfied that the law is as she states, that is fine and we will agree to this multiplicity of amendments. Doing so will save time, apart from anything else. However, I am not satisfied that we are correct here.
Those of us who have been involved with legislation for the past four years of the Parliament are always happy when we can make legislation say exactly what it means. The Executive is happy that people will understand that "a person" will act for a landlord. That definition will be clearer to the public. I am happy to support the Executive's amendments.
Bill Aitken is clearly enjoying himself this afternoon.
I have been advised clearly that the amendments in the group are appropriate for ensuring clarification. I would not have lodged amendments on such a scale for members' consideration if I had not thought that they were appropriate. I hope that I can appeal to Bill Aitken's better nature and that he will agree with us.
Amendment 100 agreed to.
Amendments 101 and 102 moved—[Mrs Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
For group 13, which deals with the application of part 7 to holiday lets and the disregarding of use for part 8, amendment 103 is grouped with amendments 122 and 160.
Amendments 103, 122 and 160 will give Scottish ministers powers to change the primary legislation by order.
Amendment 103 follows on from a stage 2 amendment that was agreed to by the Communities Committee. That amendment allowed the antisocial behaviour notice powers in part 7 to apply to holiday lets. Having consulted on the issue, we are satisfied that the use of such notice powers could help to address situations that can constitute a significant problem. For example, members will be aware of the increasing popularity of stag and hen weekends and the increasing unpopularity of such weekends among neighbours who have to get up in the morning to go to work.
Given the considerable variation in types of holiday let, the operation of the antisocial behaviour notices for which the bill provides is unlikely to be effective for all such lets. As antisocial behaviour notices are geared to operate in premises that are under continuing occupation rather than in short-term use, the purpose behind amendment 103 is to allow the notice provisions to be modified by order so as to make the notices suitable for application to holiday lets. That will make the Communities Committee's amendment to the bill more workable.
Amendment 122 responds to the committee's suggestion that resident landlords should be excluded from registration. We heard arguments both for and against that suggestion. On the one hand, it was argued that the tenants of such landlords should have the same protection as other tenants. On the other hand, it was pointed out that it would be difficult to enforce registration in this informal end of the market. It was also argued that supply would be more likely to be affected than in mainstream letting and interests from across the spectrum said that they were not aware that there was a particular problem with resident landlords.
Having taken those points into account, we have decided to seek powers to modify the categories of houses that are excluded from the registration scheme. We intend to use the powers to exclude resident landlords from the start of registration. If in future, from our increased knowledge of private sector letting, it becomes clear that there is a problem with such landlords, we will be able to include them in the registration provisions by using the power that will be provided by amendment 122. That power will also allow us to modify other categories under the registration requirements if that proves necessary. Amendment 122 should reassure a number of sectors that had some concerns about the issue.
We recognise that the powers that amendments 103 and 122 seek should be subject to a high degree of parliamentary scrutiny. For that reason, amendment 160 will provide that both types of order will be subject to the affirmative procedure.
I move amendment 103.
We have a considerable number of groups of amendments to get through, so I would be grateful if members could try to be brief.
I welcome the fact that any such orders laid before the Parliament will be subject to the affirmative procedure, but I seek further clarification from the minister.
It is difficult to make a judgment just on the basis of the minister's remarks, but I am concerned about her comment that antisocial behaviour notices are for houses under continuing occupation rather than for short-term lets. As a member for the Highlands and Islands, I am concerned that, even with the best will in the world, those who let holiday homes cannot always guarantee the behaviour of those who rent from them, particularly given that many holiday cottages are let through the internet.
I am not fully aware of exactly what the minister is planning, but she said that she might introduce an order to regulate the landlord's role in the situation. However, I think that it would be wrong to punish the landlord. For example, when someone who books a week in a holiday cottage causes havoc in the local community, should that issue not be dealt with by the police, given that it is a short-term problem? We need to consider the fact that we are talking about houses that are in short-term occupation and houses that are in continuing occupation.
Another point is that, if the landlord is punished, other tourists who have booked the holiday cottage could end up losing out on the opportunity of a holiday because of the bad behaviour of a few. We could use the current example of football fans who have caused havoc in hotels in Portugal. No one suggests that we should close down the hotels or punish them for having badly behaved guests.
I welcome the fact that the orders would be subject to the affirmative procedure, but we need more clarification in relation to short-term lets or continuing occupancy of holiday homes.
I think that we are dealing with the first matter in relation to which the general issue around making substantial amendments to bills at stage 2 arises. When such amendments are made, committees of necessity do not always consider the subject fully. The detail on registration appeared too late for the Communities Committee to be able to consider and take evidence on it at stage 1, so it was more or less inevitable that the proposals would have to be fine tuned. I am pleased by the minister's useful response and I welcome the protection that will be afforded by the provision that the instruments will be subject to the affirmative procedure.
Mary Scanlon might want to consider some of her remarks at greater length. Landlords have responsibilities, not just to their tenants but to the wider community. Her argument might lead her to suggest that a pub landlord should not be penalised for the behaviour of the people who use his premises, but I think that there is wide acceptance among members of all parties that pub landlords have a duty to the community. By the same token, holiday lets and other forms of landlordism place responsibilities on landlords in exchange for the profits that they undoubtedly seek and are justified in seeking.
The issue of holiday houses exercised the committee. The position that is proposed is a slight cop-out, in that holiday lets will be neither fully in nor out of the bill, but ministers will be able to adjust the operation of antisocial behaviour notices that relate to such lets.
Misbehaviour must be persistent to justify the use of antisocial behaviour measures and obviously someone who has taken out a short let will be gone before anything can be done about their behaviour. However, some landlords or owners of holiday houses might make a habit of allowing unpleasant or unsuitable friends and colleagues to be their tenants. Those people should be dealt with accordingly, so I support amendment 103, which deals with the matter.
Amendment 122 gives the Executive the power to modify section 64B(6) and leads us into the issue of the dwellings that can be registered. It is important that ministers should have that power. The committee raised the issue of people who rent out rooms in their own homes and most members thought that such people are in a different category from those who rent out a whole house and that they should therefore not be subject to the registration requirements. I understand that the purpose of amendment 122 is to deal with that matter, and I hope that it will be dealt with faithfully in due course.
Some of my colleagues have expressed concern about problems with other types of houses that might need special treatment, but I think that the minister would be able to address any such problems through regulations. I welcome amendments 103 and 122.
I support amendment 122 and I am grateful to members of the Communities Committee who raised the issue during stage 2. I have no personal experience of resident landlords who cause difficulties in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. Probably the only resident landlord of whom I have any knowledge is Mr Rigsby in "Rising Damp". He might have been a bit eccentric, but we would not have wanted to put in place legislation that would have forced him to close shop.
One of the biggest problems with private landlords—and the motivation behind my lodging amendments at stage 2—is that all too often it is difficult to contact them when there is a problem. Resident landlords, however, can easily be contacted by local authorities and the police, who know where those landlords are. I hope that the Parliament will support the Executive and agree to amendment 122.
I am grateful to colleagues for clarifying the position and I hope that they have addressed some of the issues that have been raised. Cathie Craigie, Donald Gorrie and Stewart Stevenson were absolutely bang-on—it has been an interesting afternoon, overall.
The power under amendment 103 would be used when a landlord could, but is not, managing antisocial behaviour in the area of holiday lets, whether they are short-term or long-term lets. The provision is to be adjusted if necessary so that orders are effective in such situations. People make money out of holiday letting and we all know of episodes in which some landlords take no responsibility for certain behaviour that takes place, which causes frustration for everybody else. Donald Gorrie articulated that clearly.
To reassure Donald Gorrie, Executive amendment 122 will ensure that different categories of housing could be dealt with, such as tied housing. The exemption could refer to such housing and to tied workers, if appropriate.
Amendment 103 agreed to.
Section 56—Failure to comply with notice: order as to rental income
Amendment 104 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 105, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 110, 113, 114, 116, 117, 132 and 139.
This group of amendments brings together various changes to the notification requirements in the bill.
During stage 2, the Communities Committee felt that it would be better if there were clear provision in the bill for the notification at various stages of tenants and any person acting for the landlord, such as a letting agent, of the processes for antisocial behaviour notices and registration. We expected to deal with such notification through guidance to local authorities, but in view of the discussion in committee, we are happy to specify the notification requirements in the bill. That makes notification more certain in situations that could be particularly significant for the tenant.
I appreciate that a large number of notifications might need to be made when dealing with registrations. The intention is that the running costs of the scheme will be met from registration fees. I also intend to consider using powers under section 64N, as necessary, to ensure that the resources are in place to support the initial costs of establishing the scheme, which might, for example, include building notification into information technology systems.
Perhaps the minister will go on to expand on this point, but one of the issues that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities raised with me was about resourcing. We want the scheme to be self-financing, but there will be initial set-up costs and I hope that the Scottish Executive will look favourably on the pleas from COSLA for funding to cover those initial costs.
The next word in my speaking notes is COSLA, with which I have had discussions. We pay serious attention to the points that it has raised with us and I am grateful for the constructive and effective partnership that we have had on housing issues in recent times. I have arranged to meet Pat Watters to discuss those aspects of the bill so that we can develop proposals to address some of the issues that face local authorities in a way that meets all our concerns effectively.
In the context of an order that no rent is payable being made under part 7, amendment 105 requires the local authority to notify the tenant and any person acting for the landlord as regards the lease that such an order has been made. Amendment 110 requires similar notification when the order is revoked. That ensures that the tenant and the agent know when rent payments should stop and when they should resume. The equivalent changes in relation to an order that no rent is payable under part 8 are contained within the more substantial amendments in group 21.
Amendments 113, 114, 116 and 117 ensure that the implementation or revocation of a management control order by the local authority is not prejudiced if it cannot identify precisely who is entitled to occupy the house under the lease or occupancy arrangement established by the landlord. Notification in those circumstances is to be where the local authority is aware of the name and address of the occupant under a lease.
Amendment 132 makes sure that the household and any person acting for the landlord as regards the lease are notified where the landlord's application for registration has been refused, and amendment 139 ensures notification of the same people of a landlord's removal from the register.
I move amendment 105.
How much does the minister expect the registration fees to be? That is a matter of some concern to a wide range of people. If landlords have extra costs, we can expect those costs to be transmitted on to tenants. An indication of the fees would be welcome.
On previous occasions, I have referred to large and late amendments at stage 2. I simply make the observation that we are seeing the consequences of such amendments today.
The indication in amendment 139 that tenants are to be kept informed is very important. The committee asked for that and I hope that the amendment will achieve its objective.
I want to raise a general point about this part of the bill. Because it was introduced at stage 2, a number of housing organisations that support the broad principles of the bill felt that things were being rushed and not enough consideration was being given to the details. Will the minister assure us that there will be proper consultation and that measures will be introduced in an orderly way, so that the various participants fully understand what they have to do and are funded and have good systems in operation?
I am sure that members throughout the chamber have a lot of sympathy for ministers in their duties, but sometimes we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we consult, we are told we consult too much; if we do not consult, people say, "Please consult." It is a difficult job to keep all members happy. Nevertheless, I take Donald Gorrie's point. I can give him and housing organisations the reassurance that they seek. Ministers have had many discussions on a range of issues through, for example, the housing improvement task force and the work that has been done in preparation for the proposed private sector housing bill. It will not be a surprise to the sector that many such issues are under discussion.
We would not want to rush inappropriately or to introduce measures in a disorderly fashion. I can reassure Donald Gorrie on that point.
Stewart Stevenson will not be surprised to learn that I will not give him a precise figure today. However, I assure him that we will consider the matter in a reasonable way and will discuss it with COSLA. I am sure that we can deal with all requirements appropriately. We will work effectively with local authorities.
Amendment 105 agreed to.
Section 56A—Appeals against orders under section 56
We move now to group 15. Amendment 106, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 107 and 108.
This group of amendments deals with the situation in which an order that no rent be payable has been made under part 7 of the bill and the landlord appeals against the order. Amendment 107 responds to the suggestion made at the Communities Committee that additional protection should be given to tenants in such situations by making suspense accounts available.
If a landlord appeals against such an order and is successful, it is possible that back-rent will be payable from the time when the order was made. The tenant may not be aware of the appeal and may not set money aside in order to be able to pay the back-rent, if necessary. The bill already provides the protection that the tenant should be notified by the landlord that the appeal is being made, failing which the court cannot order payment of back-rent if the appeal is successful. Amendment 107 allows for the further protection that Scottish ministers may prescribe other circumstances where the court could not order that back-rent be payable.
We envisage the power being used to ensure that, where appropriate, a landlord makes a suspense account available into which the tenant may pay the equivalent of rent until the appeal is determined. In that way, if the appeal was successful, the tenant would have the money available to pay back-rent and would be encouraged to avoid financial difficulty. The landlord would also have greater assurance that the tenant would be able to pay money that was lawfully due to the landlord.
Suspense accounts are not appropriate in all circumstances. If the tenant receives full housing benefit, the benefit is simply backdated if the landlord is successful in an appeal. Other tenants may prefer to put money aside in other ways. We do not think that it would be appropriate to make a blanket requirement.
We will seek through regulations to make arrangements that will be the most effective in the situation that I have described. We think that the requirement to provide suspense accounts would be better made of the landlord than of the local authority as the account will be a mutual protection related to the contractual arrangement between the landlord and the tenant, to which the local authority is not a party. However, we will consider that point further after consultation.
Amendment 108, read with amendment 106, limits any appeal that may be made against the making of an order as to rental income by the sheriff court to an appeal to the sheriff principal. The provision is appropriate, because the purpose of making an antisocial behaviour notice and of seeking an order that no rent is payable is to make the landlord take appropriate action to address an identified problem of antisocial behaviour. The landlord should be entitled to an appeal against the sheriff's decision, and that is provided for by the appeal to the sheriff principal. In the circumstances, the appeal should go no further than that.
I move amendment 106.
The Conservatives have problems both with the amendments in the group and with the whole ethos of section 56A. Basically, the provisions reward a bad tenant; in fact, it could be said that, if someone is allowed to live rent free, the provisions would create an inbuilt incentive for bad behaviour. The full obligations of the antisocial behaviour notice are placed on the landlord and yet the focus and the priority of action should be on the tenant.
Surely a basic principle in the legislative process is that sanctions should be brought against the miscreant. The Executive amendments in the group, however, would produce the bizarre situation in which those who are involved in antisocial behaviour are rewarded and the landlord is punished.
I am sure that Mary Scanlon will accept that, if a landlord had been working with a local authority, it would be very unlikely that the local authority would want to move for no rent to be payable. Can she explain how a tenant could live rent free?
As I understand it, the tenant will not pay rent, which means that he would be living rent free.
I listened to what the minister had to say about the provisions that are being made for back-rent to be payable and for benefits to be backdated. I understand that there will be further consultation on the provisions—that has to be welcomed—and the Parliament will scrutinise the regulations that will come before it. The area is one that requires further discussion, and I welcome the discussions that will take place in the fullness of time.
Cathie Craigie has clarified a number of issues. There is perhaps an ideological difference between the coalition parties and the Conservatives on the issue, and I am sure that we will debate that further when we come to debate other groupings. The difference is that the Conservatives are free marketeers, whereas we believe in appropriate regulation under which the interests of ordinary people can be protected from exploitation.
Mary Scanlon rightly said that sanctions should not be brought against a landlord who is not guilty of an action. However, there is clear evidence that landlords in the private rented sector are exploiting tenants, some of whom are being asked to live in completely unacceptable circumstances. Landlords should not be allowed to make profits on the back of such neglect—it would be improper for them to do so. That point takes us to the heart of the difference in political thinking about the amendments in the group.
The question is, that amendment 106 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 88, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 106 agreed to.
Amendment 107 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendment 107 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 88, Against 15, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 107 agreed to.
Amendment 108 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendment 108 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 89, Against 15, Abstentions 0.
Section 57—Orders under section 56: revocation and suspension
We come to group 16, on the revocation and suspension of rental income orders. Amendment 109, in the name of the minister, is in a group on its own.
Amendment 109 is a clarifying amendment. Section 57 provides for the revocation or suspension of an order that no rent is payable, once either the action required in the original notice has been taken or when it would be unreasonable for the order to continue in the circumstances. It is not the intention for the revocation to completely undo the effect of the order, back to the date that it was made. That would mean that the landlord's rent had simply been delayed, providing little real incentive for the landlord to comply promptly with the antisocial behaviour notice. Amendment 109 puts it beyond doubt that when the no-rent order is revoked, rent becomes payable from that point on and is not backdated.
I move amendment 109.
The question is, that amendment 109 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 95, Against 12, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 109 agreed to.
Amendment 110 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Section 58—Failure to comply with notice: management control order
Group 17 is on management control orders and the failure to comply with notice. Amendment 111, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 112.
This group of amendments deals with management control orders. Such orders can be made by the court on application by the local authority, where a landlord does not comply with the requirements in an antisocial behaviour notice. Amendment 111 will ensure beyond doubt that the management control order applies even where the original tenancy ends and the landlord lets to a new tenant. A management control order is obtained because the landlord is not managing a particular antisocial behaviour problem. If the tenant leaves, the problem may be resolved or it may be repeated with the new tenant. The management control order should therefore continue on a change of tenancy. The landlord is always free to apply to have the control order revoked on the grounds that he or she has taken the action required in the notice or that it is no longer reasonable for the notice to be in place.
Amendment 112 will ensure that the local authority can recover any money that has been paid to the landlord that should have been paid to the local authority because a management control order was in place. It does not matter whether the payments were made to the landlord by coercion or simply by mistake.
I move amendment 111.
The minister said quite correctly that there would come a point in the debate where there would be deep philosophical differences between us. This is as good a point as any at which to underline that. The provisions to which this group of amendments refer are a classic illustration of the Executive going over the top on private landlords and seeking to have them do what Government agencies should be doing—namely, policing the control of their premises.
We are all aware that just as there are very good landlords, there are very bad landlords. It is surely the ultimate irony that under amendment 111 the minister seeks to transfer the rights and obligations of the private landlord to the local authority. The painful experience of most of us who have been councillors tends to suggest that one of the principal difficulties that arises in the public sector, particularly in local authority housing, is the fact that local authorities sometimes do not control the way in which their houses are occupied to the extent that they should. It is a bit rich for the minister to seek to pass control of the errant private landlords' property to the councils, which have failed manifestly in many respects to cope with their own properties.
The basic tenet of the Executive's thinking is that a landlord can control his premises. Of course, any sensible landlord will take every possible measure to ensure that those people to whom any house is let are likely to behave in a reasoned and reasonable manner. However, sometimes even where landlords show due diligence in leasing premises, the property is occupied by those whose conduct is objectionable to neighbours. Mary Scanlon raised that point with regard to holiday accommodation. I have to ask the Executive whether it is reasonable to penalise the landlord if it transpires that his tenants are not behaving in a reasonable manner, despite the fact that he has taken all proper precautions to ensure that his tenants are reasonable and are not likely to cause concern to the neighbours. After all, the landlord has done everything reasonable to ensure that he has leased the flat on the basis of reasonable inquiries.
Does Bill Aitken agree that there are also landlords who do not take responsibility in that way? Sometimes we cannot find them to make them responsible and if we make contact with them we are subject to abuse. The point that we are addressing is that although not all landlords are like that, some are. The measures that we are talking about will protect good landlords and hunt down those who are not interested in providing any service to anybody in their community.
I concede that some landlords would meet the criteria that Johann Lamont is describing. However, they are in the minority. It is clear that any sensible landlord is not likely to be so neglectful—
Let me finish this point.
Do be mindful of the clock, Mr Aitken.
On that basis, I cannot let Johann Lamont in. Perhaps I will do so later.
Landlords are not going to run their properties in a manner that is likely to result in their losing money. The bottom line is that the police are the people who should be acting. Once again the Executive, with the tremendous control-freak approach that it takes to practically everything in life, is trying to get other people to do its job and ensure that it is firmly in control; that is not the answer.
The ideological debate might come in the next groups; I am looking forward to it. I reassure Bill Aitken that if the landlord has taken all reasonable steps, the order can be revoked, so what we are doing is proportionate and appropriate.
The question is, that amendment 111 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 99, Against 15, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 111 agreed to.
I advise members that, according to our timetable, we have 10 minutes left in this part of our consideration of amendments and that we have a substantial number of divisions to process. As there might be no time for debate on any of the amendments and I will be holding 30-second divisions, I request that members remain in the chamber.
Amendments 112 to 118, in the name of the minister, have all been previously debated. Unless any member objects, I invite the minister to move them en bloc.
Amendment 112 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
Section 59—Management control order: notification
Amendments 113 to 115 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
Section 61—Management control order: notification of revocation
Amendments 116 to 118 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendments 112 to 118 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 98, Against 17, Abstentions 0.
Amendments 112 to 118 agreed to.
After section 63
Amendment 119, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 154.
This group of amendments deals with the provision of advice and assistance under parts 7 and 8 of the bill—
Minister, you will have to be very quick indeed.
Okay. Amendment 119 allows for Scottish ministers—[Laughter.]
Instead of speaking to the amendment, perhaps I should simply reply to points that are raised in the debate.
There will be no debate to reply to. [Laughter.]
I am sorry that I am providing more hilarity than solutions here.
I move amendment 119.
We got there eventually.
Amendment 119 agreed to.
I would like to move a motion without notice to extend this part of the consideration of amendments by 15 minutes. I have discussed this with the business manager for the Executive, who I believe to be similarly minded.
I am minded to accept such a motion as it will enable members to explore issues more thoroughly. Is it agreed that we take such a motion?
Members indicated agreement.
Motion moved,
That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate on Groups 12 to 21 be extended by 15 minutes.—[Stewart Stevenson.]
Motion agreed to.
Section 64A—Registers
Amendment 20, in the name of Bill Aitken, is grouped with amendments 21 to 35 and 37.
I will move the amendment in Bill Aitken's name and raise some points that I raised at stage 2.
We supported the draft bill, which highlighted landlord registration for designated areas. There are two basic principles involved in this issue. First, there was no pre-legislative consultation on the 25 extensive and complex amendments that were lodged by Cathie Craigie at stage 2. The second principle relates to the question whether the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill is the correct place in which to deal with the national registration scheme for private landlords. I refer to the Communities Committee's stage 1 report which says:
"The Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland and the Scottish Association of Landlords both agreed that full registration of private landlords would be best left to a private sector housing bill, in order to avoid tarnishing what is seen as a very positive move with the negative connotations of antisocial behaviour."
The report also noted:
"The Committee notes the Scottish Executive's commitment to introduce a private housing bill which will provide for the physical standard of a property and for all aspects of the landlord-tenant relationship and therefore accepts that it is inappropriate to include such provision in this particular Bill."
I appreciate that the committee then said, "However," did a U-turn and came up with another paragraph that agreed to include such a provision in the bill, but the basic tenor of the committee's report is that there was no consultation on the registration of private landlords and that this bill is not the right one for such provisions.
The Executive has been commended by all parties and organisations throughout Scotland for its wide-ranging consultation on the bill, but Cathie Craigie's amendments at stage 2 were substantial and complex. I will quote from a briefing of the Council of Mortgage Lenders, which raised
"the principle of a voluntary accreditation scheme which could make a useful contribution towards raising standards in the PRS".
That idea might not be appropriate, but the whole issue requires further debate and a more wide-ranging consultation with all the relevant people, to examine the wider impact on the private rented sector. Not only did the private sector not have the information to feed in to us, members of the committee did not have that information.
Will the member take an intervention?
I am very short of time.
Page 15 of the Scottish Parliament information centre's briefing quotes the housing improvement task force's recommendation:
"After considering all options, HITF concluded that local authorities should promote the development of local voluntary accreditation schemes."
You have one minute remaining.
In the minute that I have left, I will say that my points were supported by COSLA, whose members said that they did not
"think that it is appropriate to have an amendment of this magnitude at this stage of the Anti-Social Behaviour Bill"
and they recommended that the issue be taken care of in a private sector housing bill. In the same briefing to the committee, COSLA said that
"We would strongly urge members of the committee to reject the amendments."
The amendments were also seen by the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland as "a step too far".
I ask the minister a question from the Scottish Council for Single Homeless; it relates to part 8 of the bill and the registration scheme.
"Given the difficulties already experienced in a number of local authority areas in tracking down Houses in Multiple Occupation for licensing, how does the Minister envisage the processes to be used in tracking down private landlords who are unwilling to register?"
I move amendment 20.
There is no more fundamental issue in antisocial behaviour legislation than that of private landlords. There has been consultation. The committee's pre-legislative consultation came up with something that we did not expect. Throughout communities, people raised the problem of private landlords. The Tories seem to be comfortable when they are talking about individual instances of antisocial behaviour and not addressing some of the structural problems that create, promote and feed on antisocial behaviour. We have to focus on that.
The proposed legislation is not a threat to the private sector; it is intended to protect it. The Scottish Association of Landlords said that it was distressed by the damage to landlords that is caused by the actions of some individual private landlords. There are some private landlords who are not in the business of providing homes for rent, but are in the business of making money in the easiest of ways, with no responsibility and affording tenants and their neighbours no rights whatsoever.
Some landlords are not known; others are abusive when they are contacted. They must be found and challenged. It is not just about the poor behaviour of individual tenants. In some communities, if we manage to evict an individual problem tenant, the next one who is not being managed causes the same problems because the landlords are not dealing with the problems as they emerge. There are broader problems when people are being driven out of their homes, selling their properties or getting a management transfer if they can because they can no longer live with intolerable behaviour.
I do not know why some people in the social rented sector are saying that the proposal is a step too far. The social landlords in my community are saying that they are damaged by private-landlord lets in their areas, which affect their ability to sustain their properties. In such communities, it is destructive, dispiriting and distressing to find oneself in a situation in which one can neither move, because one's property can no longer be sold, nor stay, because one cannot feel safe. Public moneys are feeding the problem. That situation must be challenged. If people are receiving rent, they have an obligation to act—nothing is for nothing.
It is vital that we address that connection. The obligation should not be on the person who is entitled to housing benefit, but on the person who is in receipt of housing benefit. I would be concerned if we were to set up a scheme that would not allow landlords to receive rent because they were not registered as landlords, even though the housing benefit system will pay someone money so that they can give that money to someone who is not registered as a landlord.
It is important that work is done with Westminster to address that situation. That will concentrate the minds of those people who view the present set-up as being simply a money-making opportunity, to the extent that they stipulate that someone who is in work or is not in receipt of housing benefit cannot hold one of their leases. The behaviour of such people is not in the interests of tenants or communities. Public moneys are working against the grain of the money that has been committed to community regeneration. We must support the proposed scheme, if for no other reason than to address that need within communities. We need to work with the people who have concerns about how the scheme will be implemented on the ground. By breaking the simple connection between owning a property and receiving a rent without obligation, we will be doing a very good thing for local communities.
I ask Stewart Stevenson to be brief.
I am happy to support the principle of registration for landlords. On previous occasions, I have expressed concerns about the complexity and elaboration of the set of amendments that was lodged at stage 2. At this stage, I would have preferred there to have been a simple register that just recorded landlords' names and addresses, so that we could find them. However, we are where we are and the SNP will not be supporting Bill Aitken's amendments.
It is clear from the evidence that was taken at stage 1 that landlords welcome the opportunity to have a regime that will eliminate the rogue landlords from their business and enhance the reputation of the good landlords.
If Patrick Harvie can be equally brief, I will call Cathie Craigie next.
I share some of Mary Scanlon's concerns. Like her, I expressed them during the committee's discussions at stage 2. Fuller consultation on the proposed measure would have been preferable, as would separate legislation. It would have been interesting if the registration scheme had been pursued through a member's bill rather than as part of the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill.
That said, the arguments in favour of the scheme are compelling. Although I found the balance between the arguments to be fine, I came down in favour of the stage 2 amendments to insert the relevant provisions in the bill and I will resist the amendments that now seek to remove them. One of the assurances that the Executive provided during our stage 2 discussions was that the bureaucracy of landlord registration and HMO registration could be co-ordinated properly to reduce the burden on landlords. It would be helpful if the minister could repeat that assurance today.
I know that I lodged what could be considered to be substantial amendments at stage 2, but I did not do so just because of my constituency experience of the private rented sector or my long-held views that that sector requires to be regulated. I did so because of my experience as an MSP. I have spoken to the communities that will be affected by the bill and, from 1999, was involved in taking evidence on the Housing (Scotland) Bill during the Parliament's first session, when antisocial behaviour was raised as a significant problem.
Mary Scanlon suggested that there was not enough consultation on the proposal and that it was made only at stage 2, but she might remember that, in our stage 1 report, the Communities Committee recommended that we should introduce a national registration scheme. That is what my amendments at stage 2 sought to do. The Executive has been able to tidy up the proposed scheme and improve the legislation through the amendments that we are considering today.
The registration scheme is simple, as is the test of whether a person is fit to be a private landlord. I would love to say a lot more, but I can see that the Presiding Officer is indicating that I should sit down. I hope that I will get an opportunity to make my points in the debate on the motion to pass the bill.
Point noted.
I think that members are aware that Bill Aitken's amendments 20 to 35 and 37 propose to remove the whole of part 8 of the bill. There are three key points to remember. The general principle of stronger regulation of the private rented sector has widespread support, as shown in consultations on the bill and in connection with the housing improvement task force's work. Part 8 provides the basic framework to ensure that tenants rent from people who are fit and proper and that there is a public register of landlords, their agents and their properties. The scheme does not involve detailed technical inspection of every house, so comparisons with the HMO licensing system are false. It is a light-touch scheme, although I take Patrick Harvie's point about the burden on landlords and I give him the reassurance that he seeks.
How landlords manage antisocial behaviour will form part of their track record for deciding whether they are fit and proper, so registration will complement the powers to take specific action on antisocial behaviour that are provided for in part 7. It is important to have registration powers in place sooner rather than later for that reason, as well as for the wider benefits that registration will bring.
Registration will allow local authorities to get to grips with the private rented sector in their areas and to understand what the sector provides and the contribution it makes to meeting housing need. It will help them to plan strategically for housing need, to work in partnership with the sector and, if necessary, to intervene to raise the quality of the sector and to drive out the few exploitative landlords about whom members have talked.
I reassure Patrick Harvie that we have had widespread consultation on the measure. We had widespread consultation on the housing improvement task force report and we consulted last summer on selective registration measures for the bill; officials have met a range of stakeholders.
Although I take Patrick Harvie's points, I will not take the hypocrisy of the Tories, who get in a rage one day condemning the Executive for the amount of consultation that we do and, the next day, say that we are not consulting enough. Moreover, the inconsistencies that the Tories have exposed in their approach today are a bit rich. This morning, they criticised us for being inconsistent in our dealings with the social rented sector as against the private rented sector, but now they do not wish us to introduce measures on the private rented sector.
The clear answer to the Tories' objections is in the evidence that we have from communities. The Tories clearly do not know what is going on in the private rented sector if they do not know the scale of the concern in certain communities, in which the problem is beyond being a housing management issue—it is much more serious than that. Therefore, we should reject Bill Aitken's amendments assertively.
I remind Cathie Craigie that one of the paragraphs in the committee's stage 1 report said that, because of the Scottish Executive's commitment to introduce a private housing bill, the committee accepted that it was inappropriate to include the registration scheme in the bill.
I remind Cathie Craigie and others that the Conservatives are not necessarily opposed to a national registration scheme, but we want it done properly, in the proper bill, with the proper consultation. We are supported in that stance by the Council of Mortgage Lenders in Scotland, the Scottish Association of Landlords, the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland, COSLA and the Scottish Council for Single Homeless, not on the basis that the scheme is bad, but on the basis that there has been inadequate consultation and that the scheme is in the wrong bill. That could be a point for the Procedures Committee to consider. If no housing bill were planned for the next 10 years, perhaps we could consider introducing the scheme through this bill, but I understand that a housing bill is planned for early next year.
I remind Cathie Craigie that the consultation document talked about
"Giving local authorities the power to require all privately let property in a defined area to be registered".
That power was included in the draft bill, which we supported, but the Executive did not consult on a nationwide registration scheme for private landlords; let us get it right.
The question is, that amendment 20 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 20, Against 71, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 20 disagreed to.
Section 64B—Application for registration
Amendments 120 to 122 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 21 not moved.
Section 64C—Registration
Amendments 123 to 126 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 22 not moved.
Section 64D—Section 64C: considerations
Amendments 127 to 131 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 23 not moved.
Section 64E—Notification of registration or refusal to register
Amendment 132 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 24 not moved.
Section 64F—Duty of registered person to provide information to local authority
Amendment 25 not moved.
Section 64G—Registered person: appointment of agent
Amendments 133 to 137 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 26 not moved.
Section 64H—Removal from register
Amendment 27 not moved.
Section 64I—Notification of removal from register
Amendment 138 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 28 not moved.
After section 64I
Amendment 139 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Section 64J—Appeals against refusal to register or removal from register
Amendment 29 not moved.
Section 64K—Offence of letting house while not registered
Group 20 is on offences in relation to registration areas. Amendment 140, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 141 to 146. I invite the minister to speak very briefly indeed to the amendments in this group.
Will I just move amendment 140?
There is time for a brief comment.
I will just move amendment 140.
That is suitably brief.
The same principles apply as previously, which is why we will oppose amendments 140 and 146.
It is clear that we need those amendments, so I urge the Parliament to support them.
The question is, that amendment 140 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 100, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 140 agreed to.
Does any member object to amendments 141 to 146 being taken together?
I do. I request that only amendments 141 to 145 be taken en bloc.
Amendments 141 to 145 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 146 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendment 146 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 100, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 146 agreed to.
Amendment 30 not moved.
After section 64K
Group 21 is on registration areas. Amendment 147, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 148 to 151 and 155 to 157. We are almost out of time, so I must ask the minister simply to move amendment 147.
Amendment 147 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendments 148 to 150 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendments 148 to 150 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 100, Against 15, Abstentions 0.
Amendments 148 to 150 agreed to.
Section 64L—Order that no rent payable
Amendment 151 moved—[Stewart Stevenson].
The question is, that amendment 151 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 28, Against 81, Abstentions 6.
Amendment 151 disagreed to.
Before we proceed, I advise members that moving the motion to extend the debate that we have just had under rule 8.14.3 has had the effect of extending the deadline on groups 12 to 21, but it could not go further in making any consequential changes to subsequent deadlines. In other words, the extra 15 minutes will come out of the time for the next groups. Therefore, I invite Patricia Ferguson to move a motion on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau that will revise the remaining stage 3 timetable, to change each subsequent deadline by 15 minutes.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees as a revision to motion S2M-1491 in the name of Patricia Ferguson (Antisocial Behaviour etc. (Scotland) Bill – Business Motion), agreed on 17 June 2004, in relation to the timetabling motion for Stage 3 of the Antisocial Behaviour etc. (Scotland) Bill—
after,
Groups 12 to 21 – no later than 4 hours and 10 minutes
delete all and insert,
Groups 22 to 24 – no later than 4 hours and 45 minutes
Groups 25 to 30 – no later than 5 hours and 30 minutes
Motion to pass the Bill – 5 hours and 45 minutes.—[Patricia Ferguson.]
Motion agreed to.
Amendment 31 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendment 31, which is in the name of Bill Aitken and has been moved by Margaret Curran, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 90, Against 20, Abstentions 6.
Amendment 31 agreed to.
Section 64M—Appeal against order that no rent payable
Amendment 32 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran].
The question is, that amendment 32, in the name of Bill Aitken, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 88, Against 21, Abstentions 6.
Amendment 32 agreed to.
Section 64N—Grants to local authorities
Amendment 33 not moved.
After section 64N
Amendment 154 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 155 moved—[Stewart Stevenson].
The question is, that amendment 155 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 29, Against 81, Abstentions 6.
Amendment 155 disagreed to.
Amendments 156 and 157 not moved.
Section 74—Amendment of Housing (Scotland) Act 1988
Amendment 34 not moved.
Section 74A—Interpretation of Part 8
Amendment 35 not moved.
That ends that series of divisions. I do not know about other members, but I enjoyed that.
Section 81—Review of order
Group 22 is on parenting orders in general. Amendment 60, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 63 and 64.
Parenting orders are an important part of the bill. They will ensure that the small number of parents who refuse to engage with support to improve their parenting, when that support is in their children's interest, can be held to account. All the amendments seek to improve the way in which parenting orders will operate without involving significant changes in policy.
Amendment 60 provides that a local authority must consult the principal reporter before it makes an application for the review or revocation of a parenting order. That makes sense. As members will be aware, original applications for a parenting order may be made by the principal reporter or by local authorities. If an order is then made by the court, it will be supervised by an officer of the local authority. Section 81 provides that the child, parent or local authority may apply for revocation or review of the order. When the application for the review or revocation is being considered by the local authority, it is important that the views of the reporter are fed in.
Amendment 63 is a reaction to a query that was made by Stewart Stevenson at stage 2. It provides that the offence in section 83C of publication of information that is intended or likely to identify the parent or child who is involved in the parenting order proceedings includes publication anywhere in the world. That means that it will be an offence in Scots law—triable in Scotland—for anyone to publish such information in the rest of the UK or further afield. I am grateful to Stewart Stevenson for raising the issue and I hope that he is satisfied with our response.
Amendment 64 is a technical amendment that seeks to ensure that a children's hearing may exercise its power to request the principal reporter to consider making an application for a parenting order in the course of a hearing that has been convened to review a supervision requirement. That has always been our policy. However, because of the exclusive reference in section 86 to section 65(1) of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995, a hearing could do that only when it was considering grounds of referral for the first time.
I move amendment 60.
I call Scott Barrie to be followed by Sandra White. I can give them only a minute for bullet points.
I will be brief, Presiding Officer.
The Executive is quite right to lodge amendment 60, which, if it is agreed to, will ensure that the local authority will have to bring forward reviews of any parenting order that has been made. After all, we do not want to make the court system more complex by having a situation in which either the local authority or the principal reporter can bring forward such reviews. Given that local authorities will be responsible for monitoring parenting orders, it is absolutely right that the provision in amendment 60 is agreed to.
I am obliged to Sandra White for pulling out.
Amendment 60 agreed to.
Section 83B—Account to be taken of religion, work and education
Group 23 is on the account to be taken of religion, work and education in parenting orders, reparation orders and so on. Amendment 61, in the name of Donald Gorrie, is grouped with amendments 62, 65, 66, 77 and 79.
The amendments seek to safeguard the position of people who do voluntary work or take educational or training courses by ensuring that they cannot be instructed to appear under a parenting order or community reparation order when they are doing that work or undertaking that training. We want to encourage people to take up such work or training, not deprive them of those opportunities because they are under certain orders. The point is minor, but helpful.
I should point out one minor technicality. Amendment 66 had to be lodged because it appears that, according to the law, universities are not places of education. Perhaps that issue should be pursued at another time.
I move amendment 61.
I call Sandra White, to be followed by Colin Fox. I ask members for brief contributions.
I will be as brief as possible.
I welcome—and the SNP supports—this group of amendments. I have said before that the bill must encourage, not punish. It is eminently sensible to allow someone to do voluntary work as part of the terms of a restorative order without making them take time off to appear in court as a result of a parenting order or some other order.
I welcome the amendments. I am sure that a primary aim of any youth justice system is to try to get youngsters to face up to the consequences of their offences. Any initiative that allows them to show the community that they have offended against that they are remorseful and prepared to undo some of their damage would be great. Given the vast sums of money that are spent on incarcerating people, the disposal that Donald Gorrie highlights should enjoy widespread support.
I hope that the minister will take into account the fact that the element of compulsion might act as a stigma instead of encouraging young people to get involved in reparation. I would certainly support such an order if it were voluntary. I hope that the minister will give some consideration to the fact that any voluntary order must be thoroughly supported by the agencies. As she knows, the public are losing faith in community service orders because they are not being properly supervised or completed.
In my discussions on Monday with the Broomhouse save our scheme campaign, I was interested to hear about the timebank initiative, which allows people to do voluntary work to rebuild their communities and rewards them with credits towards certain goals and community assets. I wonder whether the minister knows much about that initiative and whether she will consider introducing it in Scotland.
I am glad to be able to support all Donald Gorrie's amendments in the group. They are all technical, but they are important amendments that will ensure that the bill will define work and educational establishments sensibly for the purposes of parenting orders, community reparation orders, community service orders and supervised attendance orders.
The aim of amendment 61 is to clarify that "work" includes voluntary work for the purposes of section 83B, which provides that, in imposing a parenting order, a court shall try to avoid, as far as possible, the demands of the parenting order interfering with the parent's work or educational commitments. Therefore, it is appropriate that "work" for this purpose includes voluntary work. I am happy to support amendment 61. Amendment 62 is in a similar vein.
Amendments 77 and 79 make identical amendments to the existing provisions in the 1995 act for community service orders and supervised attendance orders. I have to say to Colin Fox that I am not aware that the public are losing confidence in community service orders. The Minister for Justice has been pursuing that route as an alternative to custody, which is something that we would all wish to support.
Amendment 66 provides that the definition of "educational establishment" for the purposes of section 245K is drawn as widely as possible. As with parenting orders, the current definition in the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 would exclude universities. However, as Donald Gorrie said, by leaving the term undefined, a court will give "educational establishment" its normal everyday meaning. I am happy to support amendment 66.
The question is, that amendment 61 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 95, Against 15, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 61 agreed to.
Amendment 62 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 62 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 97, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 62 agreed to.
Section 83C—Restriction on reporting proceedings relating to parenting orders
Amendment 63 moved—[Mrs Mary Mulligan]—and agreed to.
Section 86—Amendment of Children (Scotland) Act 1995
Amendment 64 moved—[Mrs Mary Mulligan]—and agreed to.
Section 88—Antisocial behaviour orders
Amendments 88 and 89 not moved.
Section 88A—Records of antisocial behaviour orders made in criminal courts
Amendment 90 not moved.
Section 89—Community reparation orders
Amendment 65 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 65 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 98, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 65 agreed to.
Amendment 66 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 66 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 96, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 66 agreed to.
Section 90—Restriction of liberty orders
Amendments 67 and 68 moved—[Mrs Mary Mulligan]—and agreed to.
After section 94
Group 25 deals with vehicles that are used in a manner causing alarm, distress or annoyance. Amendment 158, in the name of Paul Martin, is grouped with amendment 159.
The purpose of amendment 158 is to provide the police with the powers to remove and seize vehicles that are used in a manner that contravenes sections 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. The amendment will also apply to quad bikes, which are involved in significant antisocial behaviour in many of our communities. Amendment 158 will provide that a constable may provide information at the same time.
Amendment 159 is a technical amendment that will allow secondary legislation to be introduced.
I move amendment 158.
I ask Paul Martin to clarify some points. First, will people who use quad bikes on their own land be exempt from the proposed provisions? I know that we discussed that issue at stage 2. Secondly, would not it be more appropriate to place the proposed provisions in road traffic legislation? Thirdly, are not quad bikes already covered by road traffic legislation?
I understand why Paul Martin has lodged amendments 158 and 159, which mirror provisions of the Police Reform Act 2002 that apply to England and Wales. I am aware of the problems in his constituency, where the use of quad bikes is not only a source of annoyance and concern to residents, but is in many cases dangerous and in some, sadly, fatal. My colleague Margaret Curran has also met representatives of Kirkcaldy esplanade action group to hear at first hand about the problems that have been experienced there.
Clearly, attempts can be made to tackle the problem using existing measures. Traffic calming, road narrowing and speed checks can all have some effect and ASBOs can be used as one option for persistent offenders. However, Paul Martin's amendments will give the police and the courts another option, which I hope will serve as a real deterrent to those who think that they can flout road traffic laws in pursuit of their own enjoyment.
For many people, their car is their pride and joy and they invest heavily in it as a status symbol. Amendments 158 and 159 will ensure that people face a real risk of their vehicle being seized if they persist in bad or inconsiderate driving and ignore police warnings to stop behaving in a manner that distresses others. Similarly, those who choose to ignore the law on off-road driving and who feel that they somehow have a right to take their vehicles across public or private land should face a stiff penalty.
No one is saying that quad bikes and similar vehicles should be banned, but they cannot be above the law. To those who might question the strength of provisions and the proportionality of the sanction to seize an individual's vehicle, I say that no one has anything to fear if they behave in a sensible and law-abiding manner. However, we owe it to those whose lives are made miserable by the offensive behaviour of some to ensure that the law can protect them, and the ultimate penalties that will be available must act as a real deterrent.
I believe that what Paul Martin proposes is a fair balance between the general interest in controlling antisocial behaviour and respect for the rights of the individual. I therefore support amendments 158 and 159.
I am satisfied with the minister's response and am obviously delighted that she accepts my amendments.
Mary Scanlon referred to those who make use of quad bikes on land that they own. Earlier, I made it clear that the Road Traffic Act 1988 refers to those who cause alarm, distress or annoyance, which is the main reason for the amendments. Those who drive quad bikes on their own land would not cause annoyance, alarm or distress to others.
The question is, that amendment 158 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Abstentions
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 103, Against 8, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 158 agreed to.
I call Paul Martin either to move or not to move amendment 159.
As I explained earlier, amendment 159 is mainly a technical—
Will you just move the amendment, Mr Martin? It has been debated already.
I move amendment 159.
Your enthusiasm is commendable.
Amendment 159 agreed to.
Section 95—Fixed penalty offences
Amendment 91, in the name of Stewart Stevenson, is in a group on its own.
Amendment 91 would delete breach of the peace as an offence for which a fixed-penalty notice can be issued. The expansion of the use of fixed-penalty notices is something that is generally welcomed by SNP members and was welcomed during the stage 1 debate on the bill. It was recognised that fixed-penalty notices have the potential to save police time and to remove some of the burden from the courts system, although it has been said on occasion that that would be the case only in certain circumstances. When they gave evidence to the Justice 2 Committee, witnesses from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland made the point that fixed-penalty notices would reduce bureaucracy as long as they were used as an alternative to full reporting to the fiscal, rather than as a response to behaviour for which people would currently be merely cautioned or warned. That is a salutary piece of advice that should be heeded.
I share the concern that has been expressed that although some offences, such as speeding, are not always but are very often quite clear cut—either the person was or was not speeding—breach of the peace is, by its nature, a very different offence. It is rarely clear cut and it can cover a wide range of offences, from relatively minor ones to quite serious ones; it obviously covers a multitude of sins. To decide whether an offence has been committed will often involve a great deal of evidence and some quite subjective judgments. For those reasons, many people feel that breach of the peace is not an offence that is appropriate for the issuing of fixed-penalty notices, which is why amendment 91 has been lodged.
I move amendment 91.
We have no objection to breach of the peace being one of the offences for which a fixed penalty may apply. Our concern is that in many instances fixed penalties are not paid.
I take on board the point that Ms Sturgeon makes about the fact that breach of the peace is very wide and can range from the minor to the exceptionally serious—it is prosecutable on indictment. However, what I imagine is envisaged under the bill—no doubt the Deputy Minister for Communities will confirm this—is that breaches of the peace that will be dealt with in this way are at the lower end of the scale. That being the case, I see no real objection to the proposal and therefore we do not feel able to support Mr Stevenson's amendment 91.
I was a little surprised to see that the amendment was in Stewart Stevenson's name, because he was quite sceptical about amendments on the issue when we discussed them at stage 2. However, given that Nicola Sturgeon has spoken to amendment 91, I will try again to convince her that we are aware of concerns on the issue and are seeking to address them.
Before I give our reasons for why breach of the peace should remain in the table of offences, I should explain our intention in introducing fixed-penalty notices at part 9 of the bill. We are doing so to free up police time and to reduce some of the burden on the courts of dealing with minor cases. We want to ensure that swift, effective and fair justice is provided when antisocial behaviour offences are committed.
The proposal will not interfere with the independence of the judiciary or the independence of the Lord Advocate. Matters of prosecution of criminal offences in Scotland are in the exclusive jurisdiction of the Lord Advocate.
On the role of the courts as a whole, is the minister suggesting that there will be a review of breach of the peace so that there is a clearer definition of what it is at the lower end of the scale? The minister has mentioned the lower end of the scale of breach of the peace, but it currently has several scales—some of which can be quite serious. Will an investigation be conducted to produce a new definition of breach of the peace?
I understand from colleagues that the Solicitor General for Scotland has agreed to examine the offence of breach of the peace. I am aware that breach of the peace covers a spectrum of incidents and that the matter may need further clarification.
It is worth reiterating that the scheme will be piloted and evaluated before there is any wider roll-out. The power to issue fixed-penalty notices is not a blanket extension of power to deal with all cases involving those offences; the power is to deal effectively and efficiently with low-level antisocial offences.
The Lord Advocate, as the head of the prosecution service, will give appropriate instructions to police officers on the use of FPNs, which will take account of relevant factors and the fact that the scheme is designed to tackle low-level offending. I hope that reassures Bill Aitken that we are considering incidents at the lower end of the scale for this scheme. The Lord Advocate's guidance will assist police officers in knowing when it will be appropriate to issue an FPN in respect of minor incidents that might amount to breaches of the peace.
If it is considered at a later stage that breach of the peace, or any of the offences, should not be part of the FPN scheme, we will be able—by order—to remove an entry from the table. It would also be open to the Lord Advocate to instruct that FPNs should not be issued in respect of a specific offence such as breach of the peace.
During the pilot on FPNs for antisocial offences in England and Wales, which ran between August 2002 and 28 March 2003, just over 3,000 notices were issued and almost half of those—49 per cent—were for
"causing harassment, alarm or distress".
The closest equivalent to that offence in Scots law is breach of the peace.
As I assured members at stage 2, even beyond the evaluation of the pilot, the table of offences will be considered as part of the on-going monitoring of implementation of the bill. Ministers have the power to add, remove or amend an entry in the table by order. If inclusion of an offence is not helpful—whether as a deterrent or as a means of effectively and efficiently administering justice—we will consider removing the offence. That would be subject to affirmative resolution and would therefore have to be agreed by Parliament.
I hope that Nicola Sturgeon will be reassured by what I have said. We will keep these matters under review so that we can take further action in future.
I took such great encouragement from being able to persuade Stewart Stevenson that I have decided to press ahead and try to do the same with the minister. I am surprised that the minister is surprised that amendment 91 was lodged; the issue was discussed during earlier stages of the bill. I said at the outset, and I say it again now, that I have no objection in principle to fixed-penalty notices when it can be shown that they will reduce police time and the burden on courts.
I gave the example of England and Wales, where 3,000 cases are being dealt with by fixed-penalty notices. That will obviously relieve pressure on the court system.
Happy as I always am to learn lessons from south of the border, the legal system is very different in Scotland. We should learn lessons for ourselves.
Because of the nature of the offence of breach of the peace, a great number of such breaches—whether minor or serious—will probably be disputed. There is therefore a question about how much police or court time will be saved. Even offences at the so-called lower end of the scale—I will talk about what that means in a minute—will often be defended and will often involve hotly disputed evidence.
Does the member agree that a peaceful demonstration outside Faslane nuclear submarine base at which some 200 people are charged with breach of the peace would result in 200 appeals against fixed penalties and would not save any time?
Tommy Sheridan has more experience of the breach of the peace law than I have, and I agree with his point. It was a good illustration of what could happen.
My last point is one that Tommy Sheridan has raised—that of guidance. What constitutes offences at the "lower end of the scale"? I hear what the minister says about the Solicitor General for Scotland issuing guidance, but I would have been much happier if I had seen that guidance and been able to debate it before being asked to sign a blank cheque in Parliament today. For that reason, we will press amendment 91. I hope that members will feel able to support it.
The question is, that amendment 91 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 30, Against 81, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 91 disagreed to.
Section 103—Supervision requirements: conditions restricting movement
Group 27 is on children's hearings and supervision requirements. Amendment 69, in the name of Ms Margaret Curran, is grouped with amendments 74 and 75.
The amendments in this group are Executive amendments that are consequential on the changes that we made at stage 2 to part 12 of the bill. Amendment 69 is a minor tidying-up amendment. Amendment 74 will ensure that all references to the secure criteria in the Children (Scotland) Act 1995, including those that relate to matters pending disposal by a hearing, are references to the new criteria—now referred to as conditions—that we inserted at stage 2. That will ensure consistent use of the conditions in all circumstances.
Amendment 75 is a minor amendment. It will tidy up references that the bill makes to the definition of relevant local authority in part 2 of the 1995 act.
I move amendment 69.
I will talk briefly about section 103 of the bill. The minister is aware that I moved a number of amendments at stage 2 with the intention of widening slightly the scope of the use of restriction of liberty orders. My intention was to ensure that they would not be used only as a direct alternative to secure accommodation. I did not wish to see more children being caught up in the system; indeed, I wish to see them being referred away from secure accommodation.
It is a bit unfortunate, therefore, that we have tied ourselves into the use of RLOs as a direct alternative to secure accommodation, because the orders could be used at some point down the road as a way of avoiding the use of secure accommodation in certain circumstances. I hope that the issue is one to which we might return when we review the children's hearings system.
I accept the principle that Scott Barrie has maintained in the debate. The issue will be considered during the review of the children's hearings system and I am sure that he will return to it at that stage.
Amendment 69 agreed to.
We move to group 28. Amendment 93, in the name of Stewart Stevenson, is grouped with amendment 94.
I have a very simple pair of amendments in the group, but they have quite wide significance. I hope that, if they are agreed to, they might set a new trend and a new approach.
Basically, the bill contains a power that allows the Executive to enter into contracts for tagging. Not all members may be aware of the existing contract for tagging. We have not heard any particularly bad news about that contract, but it is with Reliance, a company that is—shall we say—under close supervision due to its antisocial behaviour and other matters.
Is the time not right for Government contracts to be a matter of public record? That is what the amendments in the group are about. There are those who will argue that Government contracts contain information that is commercially sensitive, which is undoubtedly true. One of the things that I seek to achieve is to open the door on that commercially sensitive information.
I want to share with the chamber—fairly briefly—a little bit about how contracts work in the real world, in which large moneys are spent by commercial operations. When I wrote large contracts, I used to use a gentleman by the name of Oz Watt. He ran a little company that enabled us to work out what other people were paying for the commodities for which we were writing the contracts. That is fairly common practice when large commercial contracts are being written. I get the faint indication from the Minister for Finance and Public Services that the Executive probably does the same thing—and quite right too.
One of the advantages of opening the books on public sector contracts would be that, when they came up for renewal, the companies that were bidding for them would understand clearly what they had to achieve to secure a contract. As a result, prices would be driven down and quality would be pushed up, as people sought to improve on the quality that they deliver. So there would be economic benefits in opening up the books.
However, it is recent events that have driven me to lodge the amendments in the group. I am thinking of contracts that are signed and then seem to fail. Let us be honest about the matter: some of the discussion around the recent contracts has been, to a degree, abstract, because we did not know the details of the contract. Frankly, that is not in the interest of the Opposition, the Executive or the wider public.
It is sometimes suggested that, if we had to publish public sector contracts, companies would be reluctant to do business with the public sector. Well, as the biggest spender of money on contracts in the economy, people would have to do business with the Executive if those were the terms of business. It is unfair to disclose contracts without prior agreement, but it is perfectly fair to require that if contracts are entered into with the Government, it is done in the knowledge that they will be published. Amendments 93 and 94 are small, but they lay down a marker for a point of principle.
I move amendment 93.
I call for brief contributions.
In terms of expertise, Stewart Stevenson is to contract law what Tommy Sheridan is to breach of the peace law. I will be even more blunt: amendments 93 and 94 offer us the opportunity to avoid in future the fiasco that we have seen with the Reliance contract in the past few weeks.
When contracts are entered into with private companies for the provision of public services at taxpayers' expense, the presumption should be that the contract will be published and fully open to public scrutiny. It should not be the case that a company has the right to decide, for reasons of its own commercial interest, what will be published and what will remain confidential.
I am aware that the minister might say that, on occasion, there are good reasons for deciding to keep aspects of contracts confidential—for example, for reasons of public safety—and I happily agree with that. Amendments 93 and 94 would not prevent ministers from taking such decisions, subject to freedom of information rules, but they would prevent private companies from having a veto over what is in the public domain and what is not. There is a view that companies would no longer do business with the public sector in such circumstances, but Stewart Stevenson is absolutely right to say that they would adapt.
It is important that we put down a marker in the bill. I am happy to support Stewart Stevenson's amendments 93 and 94.
Stewart Stevenson will not be surprised to hear that the Executive rejects amendments 93 and 94. They are not needed to achieve the aim of sharing information and they are too narrow to allow full public and parliamentary scrutiny of the arrangements governing electronic monitoring in the children's hearings system.
Let me put on record again the fact that this Government is committed to freedom of information. It is already made clear to all contractors who intend to bid for Scottish Executive contracts that they may be published, in keeping with the code of practice on access to Scottish Executive information and in line with full implementation of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 in January 2005.
I assume that Stewart Stevenson is looking to make quick political mileage from a point about Reliance, which ignores the fact that the Scottish Prison Service and Reliance agreed during contract negotiations to publish their contract, and appropriate provisions were included prior to their signing the deal on 7 November 2003. That was fully in line with the code of practice and the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. So again, his approach is not needed.
Of far greater importance to us today than a distracting row about one unrelated contract is how we successfully implement the bill and build confidence in our communities. Let me put on record the fact that ministers will share all information with members and stakeholders as planning for the implementation of the measures develops. Members know that we will do that, because we have done it before. Fast-track hearings were developed jointly with a range of stakeholders, including panel members, service providers, the Scottish Children's Reporter Administration, the police and local authorities. It needed to be that way because the child, not one individual organisation, is at the centre of the hearings system, and we all needed to ensure that services were delivered in a joined-up way. We published the full guidance on the operation of the pilot and included funding and accountability details for all partners. Parliament had the information in full from the outset.
What members need to know is information about the decision-making process and performance and accountability criteria, to allow Parliament and the public to measure the overall success of electronic monitoring and support services in the hearings system. Successful implementation will result from effective team working across the public, independent and private sectors. That matters to all members, because Parliament has been keen to ask us how we intend to build on our guarantee that young people under 16 will have a support package, not just a tag.
That is why amendments 93 and 94 are too narrow; they consider only the potential service requirements, funding and accountability of the tag provider, which is only one aspect of a joined-up service. We need to work with all the stakeholders to consider the whole system and its service to the child and family.
Regular performance information will be published, covering all aspects of the service once phase 1 of the implementation of tagging is in place. Independent evaluation will also be commissioned and published, as it was for fast-track hearings, and its findings will be taken into account for national roll-out. I believe that that represents a good deal for our young people and their communities and I urge members who are interested in the whole-package approach to reject amendments 93 and 94.
I was astonished to hear the minister say that my amendments were too narrow. She might find me responding to the challenge at the next opportunity—I suspect that I will take it up in a finance debate at an appropriate point.
The minister talked at great length about performance and the openness with which she will approach the monitoring of contracts. However, that is rather difficult if the detail of the contract against which the performance is to be measured is not known to us. Some of us are familiar with contracts, as my colleague Nicola Sturgeon said. I have to say that, given recent events, it is a shame that one of those who seemed considerably less familiar with the Reliance contract than almost anyone else was the person in charge of the Prison Service, whom one might have expected to know something about the matter.
The question is, that amendment 93 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 32, Against 79, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 93 disagreed to.
Amendment 94 not moved.
Section 106—Disclosure and sharing of information
We come to group 29, on disclosure and sharing of information. Amendment 70, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 71 and 72.
Amendments 70, 71 and 72 will ensure that disclosure of information can be made where such disclosure is lawful. In its present form, section 106(1B), which deals with onward disclosure of information, could suggest that information cannot be disclosed even where disclosure is permitted under another statute. Amendments 70 and 71 will remove that suggestion.
Amendment 72 clarifies the provision on the disclosure and sharing of information to ensure that local authorities acting in connection with the closure of residential premises, the making of antisocial behaviour notices under part 7 and the registration of landlords under part 8 can disclose information not only to authorities administering housing benefit but to any person carrying out services for or discharging the functions of such authorities. The amendment will simply ensure that the information can be passed to all the appropriate persons and will put beyond doubt the scope for providing information in such circumstances.
I move amendment 70.
Amendment 70 agreed to.
Amendments 71 and 72 moved—[Mrs Mary Mulligan]—and agreed to.
Section 108—Orders and regulations
Amendments 160 and 73 moved—[Mrs Mary Mulligan]—and agreed to.
Section 110—Interpretation: "antisocial behaviour" and other expressions
Amendment 37 not moved.
Group 30 is on the interpretation of "antisocial behaviour". Amendment 161, in the name of Elaine Smith, is grouped with amendments 162 and 163.
The aim of my amendments, which relate to the definition of antisocial behaviour, is to highlight the possibility that such a wide definition could discriminate against people with disabilities. Obviously, that was not the intention of the Executive when it decided on the definition, but it might be an unintended consequence.
Organisations such as the National Autistic Society Scotland, Capability Scotland and Leonard Cheshire, as well as the cross-party group on autistic spectrum disorder, which I convene, have raised concerns that someone with a disability could display strange behaviour that harms no one but which could be interpreted as being behaviour
"likely to cause alarm or distress".
I recognise that the minister has met with groups, including the cross-party group, to discuss those concerns. However, evidence from England, where a similar definition is used, shows that ASBOs are being served on children with disabilities. The National Autistic Society took a call from the parents of a 13-year-old boy with autism. He had been served with an ASBO after neighbours complained about the noise he was making when jumping on his trampoline. Of course, trampolining has been found to be therapeutic for people with autism. It is all very well saying that public bodies should adhere to equal opportunities legislation but, in that case, the local authority was aware that the boy had autism when it applied for the ASBO. That demonstrates that robust safeguards need to be in place to protect people with disabilities from being punished because of behaviour caused directly by their disability.
I am pleased that the Executive has taken note of the recommendation about guidance that was made by the Communities Committee in its stage 1 report and I welcome the publication of the draft guidance for parts 1 and 2 of the bill. I was pleased that the guidance on part 2, relating to ASBOs, states that
"it would not be appropriate to use an ASBO where an individual cannot understand the consequences of their actions"
and goes on to refer to people with autism, developmental conditions and medical conditions. Later, the guidance states that, when a local authority or an RSL receives a complaint, they should consider, among other things, whether the person has a medical or developmental condition that affects their behaviour. Those safeguards are significant, but there is no mention of considering the behaviour of people with disabilities in the draft guidance on part 1.
The measures in the bill could impact negatively on children and young people with disabilities such as ASD, Tourette's syndrome and Huntingdon's disease, as well as on people with learning disabilities. Those people could be subject to a raft of measures, such as fixed-penalty notices and community reparation orders, and their parents could be subject to parenting orders. I would therefore like the Executive to give a firm commitment to the Parliament that the guidance for the whole bill—not just a section here and a section there—will provide for people with disabilities. That has to be a principle that runs through all the guidance. Without such a commitment, the bill will need to be amended to ensure that people with disabilities are protected.
I ask the Executive to address the fact that, although the guidance refers to "developmental conditions" and "medical conditions", not everyone with a disability will fall into those categories. That means that we could end up with a two-tier system in which people with autism are protected but people with learning disabilities are not. I await the Executive's response on those points.
I move amendment 161.
We all admire the work that Elaine Smith has done on autism and Asperger's syndrome and I strongly support the amendments in her name.
As an example of the difficulties that can arise in relation to developmental conditions—particularly Asperger's, as people with Asperger's often have a high intelligence quotient but low social and communication skills—I cite the fact that there are people in England with Asperger's who have been incarcerated in institutions for the criminally insane for more than a decade. Often, there is confusion in diagnosing people's conditions and the behavioural difficulties that some people have can be of such a character that their intention and condition are totally misinterpreted.
I think that, with her amendments, Elaine Smith is seeking to ensure that, at the much lower level of concern that we are dealing with today—the domain of antisocial behaviour—people who are unaware of distress that they might be causing to other people are not caught up unintentionally in a situation that is not of their making. We debated the matter in committee and we have had a good debate today, so now I trust to the maturity of Parliament to support Elaine Smith's amendments.
I, too, commend Elaine Smith for the work that she has done. As she has used at least half my speech, I will just say a few words. I find the issue difficult, because I do not believe that we can achieve perfection—it is not possible. We have to realise that there will always be some kind of problem. Recently in Inverness, someone told me that he was threatened with being done for breach of the peace after he had had an epilepsy seizure. Once that was explained, things were all right.
Attempting to distinguish between intended behaviour and unintended behaviour on the basis of disability undoubtedly provides a challenge. However, Elaine Smith's amendments would improve the definition of antisocial behaviour that is used in the bill and go some way towards forming a more objective definition. We will support the amendments.
I will be brief, because most of what I wanted to say has already been said. I thank Elaine Smith for lodging the amendments. If the Executive can reiterate the commitment that it gave at stage 2 on the guidance, that might make a difference. If not, we will have to push on with Elaine Smith's amendments.
Stress is being caused to families who are worried about the situation that Elaine Smith describes. One young man has been charged with breach of the peace because he mistakenly thought that the Asian people he saw, who were dressed like the terrorists he had seen on the television, were indeed terrorists and he kicked up about that. Despite the fact that he has Asperger's syndrome and did not understand, he is going to court. We cannot have such situations; we have to have understanding and I hope that the amendments will help to clarify the issue.
It is important that the Executive should strengthen the guidance. At first sight, the draft guidance is not as strong in this area as it should be, particularly on the training of people such as the police and local government officials who will have to deal with the problems and will need to understand the sort of issues that Elaine Smith is raising. It would be okay if the guidance were better. Nonetheless, there is a problem with Elaine Smith's amendment 161, because the term "intentionally" could provide an escape route for a clever lawyer to get people off who should not be got off.
I appreciate the points that Elaine Smith has made and I share her interest in the issue, having met the cross-party group on autistic spectrum disorder on several occasions. However, the amendments would cause further difficulties with regard to the definition of antisocial behaviour. In many ways, this debate should have come at the beginning of the process, when we were discussing exactly what we meant by the bill. However, we are where we are and initial guidance has been shown to members of the Communities Committee.
Elaine Smith has said that she still has problems with the guidance, but I am more than happy to meet her and others who have an interest in the issue to consider how we can tighten it up. The principal aim of the bill is to reduce the incidence of antisocial behaviour and, as we have heard from many, the people who suffer from conditions such as autism are often the most vulnerable to and affected by antisocial behaviour. We have to push on with the measures that are in the bill, but we also want to protect vulnerable groups from discrimination, which we can do through the guidance. I hope that Elaine Smith will feel that she can withdraw her amendment.
I acknowledge the minister's intentions and I am pleased that she will discuss the guidance. The final test will be in the practice of the law but I am happy with the minister's reassurance.
Amendment 161, by agreement, withdrawn.
Amendments 162 and 163 not moved.
Section 112—Short title and commencement
Amendment 164 not moved.
Schedule 4
Minor and consequential amendments
Amendments 74 to 76 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 77 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 77 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 98, Against 17, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 77 agreed to.
Amendment 78 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Amendment 79 moved—[Donald Gorrie].
The question is, that amendment 79 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (SSP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Abstentions
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 96, Against 17, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 79 agreed to.
Amendments 80 and 81 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.
Schedule 5
Repeals
Amendment 82 moved—[Ms Margaret Curran]—and agreed to.