Plenary, 28 Oct 1999

Meeting date: Thursday, October 28, 1999

Official Report 830KB pdf

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Question Time

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SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

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Education Funding

To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to each of Fife, Stirling, Clackmannanshire, Angus, and Perth and Kinross Councils as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October. (S1O-464) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The additional money for education that was announced by Mr Jack McConnell on 6 October has been widely welcomed. Detailed allocations of education resources for individual councils will be made as part of the local government finance settlement later this year.

Does the minister agree that the extra sum means that the pupils of Dunblane High, who were here this morning, will directly benefit from the partnership agreement between our parties?

Will he reassure me that the good that will be done for education by the extra money will not be undone by capping Perth and Kinross Council's spending next year if its budget is slightly above guidelines, bearing in mind that the First Minister rightly described capping as crude, and that none of us wants to do anything that could possibly undermine the robust health of our coalition?

Speech.

Order.

I do not often have the chance to agree whole-heartedly with Mr Raffan, so I will take this opportunity to welcome what he said about the additional resources. One of the hallmarks of this Administration is the high priority we give to education. That is why money is flowing not just to Dunblane High, but to every school in Scotland in order to improve education in every community—and it should continue.

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Scottish Legal Aid Board

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to ensure that accounts rendered to the Scottish Legal Aid Board are settled timeously. (S1O-483) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Scottish Legal Aid Board gave an undertaking to introduce, by 25 October 1999, a new target of paying all criminal legal aid accounts within 30 days—excluding public holidays—from the receipt of an account supported by appropriate documentation. I understand that the backlog of accounts has been cleared and that the target is being met. The board's performance will be monitored at regular meetings between the chief executive, the chairman and my officials.

I thank the minister for his response and for the courtesy of his recent correspondence on this matter.

Does he agree that our principal concern should not be for the members of the Faculty of Advocates, whose main concern is where the next plate of smoked salmon is coming from, but for the one-man practices that rely heavily on a consistent funding flow from the Scottish Legal Aid Board?

I should declare an interest as a non-practising member of the Faculty of Advocates. I would not wish to say anything that might upset my colleagues, especially as I am attending a reception at their behest tonight.

I agree that single-member practices in the legal profession have difficulties maintaining cash flow and with the paperwork that they must undertake. It is for those reasons that the Scottish Legal Aid Board has brought new systems into play to try to ensure that the 30-day target is met.

I will take this opportunity to pay tribute to current staff of the Legal Aid Board and the ex- employees who returned to help, who worked exceptional overtime to ensure that the backlog was cleared as soon as possible.

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North Ayrshire Council

To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received from North Ayrshire Council about the impending deficit in the council's direct labour organisation. (S1O-472)

None.

I am not sure that Mr McAveety will win debater of the year with that speech.

You know as little about this as the trade unions and the workers. Despite their efforts to find out why those decisions have been made, the trade unions and DLO workers have not received any information. In the light of the fact that you know nothing about this, will you join me and the trade unions in trying to get information by asking North Ayrshire Council to delay the decision until there has been an independent audit, discussed with those who are involved?

That is a perverse interpretation of an eloquent, monosyllabic point.

The local authority is responsible for its actions and for its relationship with its DLO. Its legitimate responsibility is to ensure that there is no fiscal deficit at the end of the year. Last week, I took the opportunity to visit the local authority. Many issues were raised about the modernisation of the council. One of its key commitments is to improve its public service through the DLO structure and to offer value for money for the local taxpayer. I am absolutely delighted that North Ayrshire Council is engaging in that process and hope that it will continue that process with its work force. If Mr Russell has concerns, he should raise them directly with the appropriate body, which is the local authority.

I am concerned that you use the words "absolutely delighted" about the loss of 40 jobs in North Ayrshire—an area that has the second worst unemployment in Scotland. Will you encourage an independent audit so that the workers involved can understand the reasoning behind this decision? Although modernisation may mean a lot to you and your colleagues in new Labour, in these circumstances it means job losses to people in North Ayrshire.

That, too, is a misrepresentation of what I said. I said that I was delighted at the opportunity for the local authority to address how it structures its DLO. I hope you recognise that, because of the principle of subsidiarity in decision making, it is for the local authority to determine within its resources how best to approach these matters. I am fairly confident that councillors in North Ayrshire, most of whom are committed to the change agenda—some parts of which the SNP would not support—will ensure that the council delivers quality DLO services and for the local taxpayer. The pity is that your SNP colleagues say one thing locally and do a different thing nationally.

Order. The word you is coming into these exchanges too much.

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Scotland House

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to use Scotland House to secure new markets and jobs in the expanding European Community. (S1O-451)

Scotland House is a prominent and useful new Scottish facility in the heart of Brussels. The new Scottish Executive EU office and Scotland Europa are co-located in Scotland House. Scotland Europa, Scottish Trade International and Scotland the Brand are working together to make Scotland House a focal point for Scotland's export drive into the European Union and central and eastern European markets.

Will the minister explain the logic behind the Executive's reasoning for joining on a stage the leader of the SNP, who would clearly like to use Europe and the euro as a way to break Scotland away from the United Kingdom?

Those matters would be easier to explain if we had any idea of a clear, consistent Conservative policy. This morning we heard Mr Davidson contradicting the rest of his party: he talked about being fully involved in Europe when the rest of his party is trying to take Britain out of Europe. That would destroy British jobs, the British economy and many other opportunities.

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Out-of-town Retail Development

To ask the Scottish Executive, given current planning presumptions against major out-of-town retail developments, whether any further major out-oftown retail developments will be permitted in, or in proximity to, the Renfrewshire Council area. (S1O454) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Each application must be treated on its merits. In assessing new proposals, planning authorities will take into account all relevant material considerations, including the policies set out in revised national planning policy guideline 8, on town centres and retailing, which was published last year.

I thank the minister for that reply. She is no doubt aware of the new Braehead development. The developers have been trying to

work closely with local councils to revitalise the local economy, but PPG8, to which she referred, on town centres and retailing states:

"The Government is committed to protecting and enhancing the vitality and viability of town centres."

Will the minister confirm that this policy will be strictly adhered to in dealing with any major retail developments proposed for sites outwith town centres and shown to have a detrimental effect on existing town centres?

I can guarantee that we will apply those policies consistently throughout Scotland and that we will consider the sequential test, which tries to give priority to developments in town centres and takes into account vitality and viability when any out-of-town proposals are being considered.

I call Alex Neil.

Sir David—

I am sorry, you had a long run on your second question.

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Poverty

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to use its own Scottish indicators to measure poverty in Scotland. (S1O-448) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): A wide range of information on poverty and social exclusion in Scotland is currently collected, some of which is on a specifically Scottish basis. Our targets for tackling poverty and on social inclusion in Scotland will be published soon.

In terms of measuring poverty in Scotland, will the Executive be forced by Alistair Darling and the Department of Social Security into using their indicators, rather than doing what the Minister for Communities previously promised to do—apply a more radical set of indicators here in Scotland? Would that not be in total defiance of the principle of devolution?

Unfortunately, Mr Neil operates on muddled information. We will have distinct targets on devolved aspects of tackling poverty. However, we must be clear and not mislead people by setting distinct targets for areas of policy for which the Executive is not primarily responsible. This is too important an area to fudge. It will take Edinburgh and London working in partnership to ensure that, within a generation, no child will have to grow up in poverty.

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Health Care

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it can confirm that its health priorities are unchanged and that it stands by its manifesto pledge on waiting lists. (S1O-491)

Cancer, coronary heart disease and stroke, and mental health have been clinical priorities for the national health service in Scotland for the past three years, and remain so. As is stated in the partnership agreement and in the programme for government, the Scottish Executive is committed to setting targets to speed treatment and to shorten waiting times. At present, we are taking forward work in that area, which builds on the significant reductions in waiting lists that have been achieved since 1997.

I welcomed the announcement on waiting times. Does the minister now accept that the Executive's obsession with reducing waiting lists has seriously distorted clinical priorities in our health service? Does she now agree that waiting times for treatment are what really matter to patients, and support our policy of a guaranteed waiting time based on clinical need?

The obsession of this Executive is to ensure that we use this Parliament to provide a better quality of life, better opportunities and better services for the people of Scotland. There are many ways in which we can do that in the health service. I am delighted that almost 10,000 fewer people are waiting for treatment now than was the case in May 1997. Those are real people, who would otherwise still be waiting to be seen. We want to build on that. That is why the Executive is committed to speeding up treatment and shortening waiting times, and why we are now embarked on a comprehensive exercise—working with a support group and with the NHS in Scotland—to build on the tremendous work that has been done in the NHS thus far to ensure that we improve the speed with which we can offer treatment in future. I am delighted that we are able to take that work forward in this Parliament.

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Residential Homes

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will reconsider its decision not to grant the application by the Federation of Small Businesses for the setting up of an inquiry under section 211 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 into the manner and consequences of the divestment or "externalisation" of 11 residential homes formerly run by Dumfries and Galloway Council. (S1O-480)

Our view remains that a section 211 inquiry is not appropriate. However, I am happy to meet Mr Mundell to discuss that further, as I indicated in my letter to him of 19 October.

I welcome the minister's response and his letter, although I note that the controller of audit has said that there are some arrangements that give cause for concern in respect of the value for money of the transfer.

Is the minister aware that one of the consequences of externalisation has been the adoption by Dumfries and Galloway Council of a three-for-one policy, whereby three elderly people in private nursing homes have to die before one elderly person is allowed into a private nursing home, and that that has led to bed-blocking, to the enormous cost of the local health service?

I thank Mr Mundell for pointing out why a section 211 inquiry would not be appropriate at the moment. The controller of audit is already investigating the decision-making process that resulted in the externalisation. Several other people, including the local government ombudsman and the council's monitoring officer, could address some of the concerns Mr Mundell has raised. The possibilities have not been exhausted, which is why an inquiry is not appropriate.

On the policy of delayed discharge, I understand that the council and the health board agree that 13 people are in hospital awaiting placement because the council does not have the resources to accommodate them. The delay in discharge is approximately two months and my officials have been encouraging the local authority and the national health service trust to work together to improve the situation as soon as possible, as is their responsibility.

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Local Government Finance

To ask the Scottish Executive what the impact is of the reduction by £1 million in its social work budget made by East Lothian Council as a consequence of reductions in local government funding. (S1O-488) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Between last year and this, the total grant-aided expenditure allowances for social work services in East Lothian have increased by around 9 per cent—more than £18 million. GAE allowances are not hypothecated and it is for the council to determine its expenditure plans. East Lothian Council has indicated that it plans to spend £1.2 million more—7 per cent—on social work than it budgeted last year.

Is the minister aware that in the East Lothian News and in the East Lothian Courier on 25 June 1999, reference was made to savings—a nice way of putting it—of £920,000 in the social work budget?

Is the minister aware that, as a consequence of those savings, the Waverley home in Gullane was closed earlier this year and 27 elderly residents were scattered throughout the county to other homes, that the meals on wheels service was discontinued and that a fortnight's supply of frozen food was substituted? That would have had a disastrous effect on the elderly and would have denied them vital human contact.

Does the minister agree that that is appalling and affects the most vulnerable? Does he further agree that as 85 per cent of the Labour- administered East Lothian Council's budget comes from the Scottish consolidated fund, for which the Executive is responsible, he bears the responsibility for those cuts to services?

Responsibility for the allocation of budgets in East Lothian lies, quite properly, with East Lothian Council. The social work GAE has risen by 9 per cent, the council social work budget has risen by 7 per cent, the overall GAE for East Lothian Council has risen by 6.6 per cent and the council's expenditure guidelines for this year have been raised by 5.5 per cent. Those are increases, not cuts.

I am concerned about delays older people and other client groups experience in receiving services in line with their assessed needs. I have asked the head of the community care division of the Scottish Executive to meet the council to discuss the matter. That should happen this week and a report should be made soon.

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Pig Industry

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to support the UK Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in his efforts to assist the UK pig industry by requesting financial aid from Europe to eliminate the cost burden caused by BSE. (S1O-482) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): I am very conscious of the serious problems that face the pig industry, but Mr Fergusson will be aware that the European Union state aid rules are a major obstacle to our providing direct financial assistance, even in the case of on-costs associated with BSE.

I should mention two matters that have been raised as a part of the consultations that have been going on with UK agriculture ministers. First, we have renewed our application to the European Union to have the state private storage aid for pigmeats and the export refunds reinstated.

Secondly, a package of some £5 million of aid throughout the United Kingdom, to promote the marketing of pigmeat, which was formalised only this morning, is now being put in place. In Scotland, we will be able to use our proportionate

share of that to give further substance to the Scottish pig industry initiative and the Scottish pig marketing quality mark.

I thank the minister for his full reply—I am sure that the pig industry will be very grateful for the announcement that he has just made. However, given the fact that imports of pigmeat into the UK from Belgium have increased by 51 per cent in the first two quarters of 1999, despite the fact that dioxin-contaminated feed was given to the Belgian herd, what steps is the Executive taking—or has it taken—to ensure that pigmeat from Belgium, which may have been contaminated by dioxins, has not reached the Scottish consumer?

First, we are constantly in touch with the Commission, because it is for the Commission to deal with any evidence that meat of that quality is being exported. Secondly, I issued a consultation document yesterday, outlining proposals to clarify and strengthen guidance on country of origin labelling. I appreciate that that will not deal with the whole problem, but I hope that being more specific about what is Scottish and what is not will go some way to ameliorating the problem.

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Rural Development

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are being taken to ensure that employment opportunities in rural areas do not suffer as a result of transport restrictions on rural economic development as laid out in the national planning policy guidelines. (S1O-467) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Our national planning policy guidelines do not impose traffic restrictions on rural economic development. They seek fully to exploit sustainable patterns of travel. Planning and road policy should be appropriate to the specific circumstances of rural areas.

I contradict the minister's answer. Could she clarify what measures are being taken to ensure that public transportation—particularly in the south of Scotland and in Moffat—is of a sufficient standard to ensure that jobs do not suffer? I ask that in the light of the Executive's decision against the building of a factory outlet centre at Hammerlands. It stated:

"While the prospect of increased employment opportunities is generally regarded as beneficial . . . the proposals are likely to result in increased use of the car, contrary to sustainable transport policy."

Order. This is not argument time; it is question time.

I do not want to get into the specifics of an individual application, but the broad approach that is pursued—through the national planning policy guideline on transport and the rural development national planning policy guideline—is to direct development to the most appropriate places. We recognise that in rural areas, the car is often the most easy and accessible form of transport for many people. The presumption— through the planning system—should be to identify appropriate sites that can promote business development, take most account of existing travel patterns and try to promote development in rural areas.

I remind members that the standing orders say clearly that questions should be brief.

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Natura 2000 Directive

Thank you for the reminder, Presiding Officer. My question is: To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it intends to take to meet the demands of the European Union Natura 2000 directive on habitat protection. (S1O-481) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive is fully implementing the birds and habitats directive and contributing to the network of Natura 2000 sites across the European Union.

I thank the minister—to whom I am disposed to give my support whenever possible—for her answer. However, is she aware of the criticism levelled at the UK at the recent EU Commission meeting in Dublin over its minimalist approach, in comparison with other countries, to implementation of the EU habitats directive? Thirty-nine different UK habitats, 37 of which are in Scotland, had not been considered for designation. Is she aware of the concern—

Mr Harper—

This is part of the question— please let me finish.

I am sorry, but we cannot have questions in different parts. Questions should be brief—you have made your point, and I ask Sarah Boyack to reply to it.

We have suggested candidate special areas of conservation to the EU and are in the middle of a moderation process.

The meeting to which Mr Harper referred took place in Kilkee last month. Several issues were raised about the principles of issues attached to sites. We will review our sites and will ask Scottish Natural Heritage to carry out scientific research on the issues that were raised at Kilkee. We will take that evidence into account when proposing a final list of special areas of conservation to the European Union at the next moderation meeting.

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Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.

To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to Argyll and Bute and West Dunbartonshire councils as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October. (S1O-461) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): There is something faintly familiar about that question. I am very pleased that our colleagues in the Liberal Democrats have embraced the policy of best value in terms of question-writing.

You were nearly one of them.

I can do no better. [Interruption.] I refer Mr Lyon to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan some time earlier.

Will the minister repeat his answer, as I could not hear it?

I refer Mr Lyon to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan earlier.

Does the minister agree that the additional money will help Argyll and Bute Council to think again about its proposals to close as many as 10 rural schools? Can he guarantee that while the money will be ring-fenced for education, it will be left to local authorities to determine their own education priorities?

It is for local authorities to determine their own priorities within the resources that are allocated by the Executive. Local authorities, with the Executive, have usually given education the highest priority they can. In that context, I expect schools in Argyll and Bute to continue to benefit from the additional money.

Third time fair or fatal. To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to Moray Council as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October, a sum of money that will be very welcome to many people. (S1O-471)

I keep getting a feeling of déjà vu. I refer Mrs Radcliffe to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan earlier.

We object to the Liberal Democrats having more plants than Dobbie's.

As three rural schools in Moray are under threat of closure, including Boharm in my constituency, does the minister agree that additional funding will be of great value to Moray Council, given the higher annual running cost per pupil for small schools in rural areas?

The grant allocations that are devised for local authorities take account of the real factors that affect councils such as Moray. A higher distribution per head of population is given to account for that. Moray Council, along with other councils in Scotland, has enjoyed more resources for education. That is one of the reasons why Moray Council is farther ahead than most in, for example, the provision of the national grid for learning.

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Charity Shops

To ask the Scottish Executive what recent representations it has received concerning the discretionary relief from business rates allowed to charity shops. (S1O-453)

Recently, we have received three representations: a written question from Ian Jenkins, the member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale, in September, a letter from Peebles Civic Society in September and a letter from the Association of Charity Shops in October.

Will the minister give us an assurance that there will be no change to the present arrangements, which provide an 80 per cent mandatory and 20 per cent discretionary relief from business rates for charity shops?

Yes.

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Objective 2 Funding

To ask the Scottish Executive what impact the change to objective 2 status will have in Dundee, specifically in relation to the exclusion of the science and technology park and the universities from the new objective 2 boundary. (S1O-473) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The proposals for objective 2 coverage in Scotland target significant areas of need. More than 50 per cent of the population of Dundee should be covered by full objective 2 status.

We will ensure that the transitional funding is targeted on the main priorities in transition areas— which could be the science park and the university campus in Dundee, if that is considered

appropriate by those involved in the planning process. I have already passed representations on this issue from Kate MacLean MSP to those responsible, as she raised these points with me three weeks ago.

What criteria will the minister use when considering the amendments? What will be the time scale, given that the whole package requires to be approved by Christmas?

The plans will not require to be approved by Christmas. As I said this morning in the debate, I will ensure, in considering the plans when they come forward from the plan teams, that the transition areas are properly prioritised and that the areas of greatest need benefit most from the transition money.