Plenary, 20 Dec 2001

Meeting date: Thursday, December 20, 2001

Official Report 485KB pdf

---

Question Time

---

SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

---

Justice (Sexual Abuse Cases)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any concerns following the abandonment in July 2001 of the trial of six men in Ayrshire charged with sexual abuse and what steps it is planning to take to ensure that justice is served in all such cases. (S1O-4339)

The Crown deserted the case of alleged sexual abuse because one of the child witnesses was unfit to give crucial evidence in cross-examination. The decision was based on advice from a child psychologist who was familiar with the child. Clearly, there are lessons to be learned. We must find sensitive ways of allowing vulnerable witnesses to give evidence.

That will not come from a single quick fix, which is why Jim Wallace set up an implementation group to develop the relevant recommendations from the report of the Lord Advocate's working group on child witness support. My predecessor met the two constituency MSPs, Cathy Jamieson and Margaret Jamieson, and the Crown Office met the child's mother. Other initiatives might follow. We will report to Parliament as soon as possible on the outcome of the work.

I thank the minister for that considered response. Given the outcome of the case, is he prepared to initiate an investigation into the way in which the Crown went about the decision making with respect to inducing the prosecution? Will he consider recognising the concerns and the possibility that several reputations have been tarnished unjustly? How can we allow those individuals, who have long professed their innocence, to present evidence so that they can prove that innocence? They were debarred from doing that when the court case collapsed.

Mr Gallie wrote to us on the subject and pressed the case for a public inquiry, which the Lord Advocate has said is not appropriate. We must consider the implications of the case, because they are significant. It would be helpful if Mr Gallie adopted an approach that took into account the alleged victims in the case. It is of the greatest concern to me that those children will grow up in the knowledge that the case was abandoned.

However, under our criminal justice system, an accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. In this case, the proceedings were deserted simpliciter—I am told that that is the legal term. Consequently, the presumption of innocence still applies. The Crown is barred from raising a new prosecution against the six accused in respect of the original applications. I believe that they should be satisfied with that, on the understanding that we are examining the implications of the case as a whole.

Will the minister confirm the offer made by the previous Deputy Minister for Justice, Iain Gray, for his officials to meet some of my and Cathy Jamieson's constituents, which would allow them the opportunity to discuss the issues relevant to them and the decision to abandon the trial?

I know that Iain Gray, my predecessor, and the Lord Advocate met Cathy Jamieson and Margaret Jamieson when they were making representations concerning the interests of the accused, who were their constituents. The then deputy minister wrote on 24 October, offering a meeting between a justice department official, the MSPs and the accused to discuss general issues arising from the case. That offer still stands, and I can confirm it today.

---

Education (Public-private Partnerships)

To ask the Scottish Executive how much funding has been made available to local authorities for the appointment of consultants to develop proposals for public-private partnerships in education. (S1O-4354)

The Scottish Executive has not allocated funding specifically for that purpose. We have allocated £5 million across 21 education authorities in order to take forward feasibility studies into possible further school PPP projects. Authorities will have used some of that allocation on external expert advice and some to cover their own costs.

Is the minister aware that the PPP proposal for schools in Dundee involves the slashing of Dundee City Council's education budget by 20 per cent, as well as the closure of schools across the city—in particular, the second closure in less than five years of a secondary school in one of the poorest areas of the city—without replacement?

I would prefer it if the minister were able to reject all the PPP proposals falling on to her desk, but in the event that she cannot do so, could she at least assure me that any PPP proposal that acts counter to the interests of the poorest communities in Scotland will be rejected on the basis that that runs counter to the policies of the Executive?

I am well aware of John McAllion's interest in ensuring that social justice is at the top of agendas. I can say that 16 local authorities have submitted proposals, which are many and varied and which we will have to examine in great detail. We will need to ensure that they best meet the needs of all children and young people and give young people the opportunity of an education in fit-for-purpose buildings. I want to consider the proposals very carefully indeed before making any further decisions on the matter.

Will the minister assure me that the costs involved in hiring consultants will be scored against PPP bids when comparisons with a public sector comparator are drawn? Will she assure me that any bids that come from councils involving not-for-profit trusts will be given equal treatment to the PPP bids?

I thank Brian Adam for raising the same issue that was raised a couple of weeks ago in relation to how we proceed with this. It is clear that all bids will have to be considered on their merits, and it is clear that all bids will have to be considered on the basis of whether they deliver for children and young people. That is the important issue. I have said it once, twice and now three times in the chamber: the simple solution is for us to assess the bids that come in, to ascertain whether their business cases stack up, to assess whether they deliver for children and young people and to make decisions accordingly.

I am not aware of any firm proposals from any local authority based on not-for-profit trusts. I understand that some authorities may consider that in the future. Of course, we will give that due consideration.

Does the minister agree that an accurate assessment of all public-private partnerships is how they deliver for young people in the most disadvantaged areas? I offer the minister the opportunity to come to St Mungo's Academy, in the poorest constituency in the whole of Scotland. I would be happy to take John McAllion along. He could speak to the students about the incredible difference that the school is making to its community in the east end of Glasgow.

I am aware of Frank McAveety's long-standing interest in this issue and in ensuring that young people in his constituency and throughout Glasgow have the opportunity of a good education. I am happy to consider the experience of St Mungo's Academy to see what we can learn from that. I am sure that my colleague John McAllion will want to do the same.

Let us be absolutely clear about the SNP's position on this issue. In a press release in which it castigates the Executive for trying to ensure that funding is available for projects to advance the best interests of young people, the SNP appears to have its own little private finance initiative: at the foot of the document is an advert for the SNP Visa card. The SNP is interested in party politicking, rather than in the interests of young people in Scotland, which are our main concern.

On a point of order—

Order. If ministers go back to answering previous questions, we will not make progress. Ministers should stick to answering the questions that are being asked at the time.

---

National Health Service (Equipment)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether the additional money allocated from Her Majesty's Treasury under the recent pre-budget report will be used to initiate a programme of upgrade and renewal of NHS equipment. (S1O-4347)

In the new year the Cabinet will take decisions on the allocation of the additional resources that Scotland received as a result of the pre-budget report.

Does the minister agree that the task of those working in the national health service would be made much easier if they had the use of the best modern equipment? That might go some way towards reducing waiting lists, if not waiting times. It is a disgrace that the national health service has to make do with out-of-date equipment. I understand that there is no rolling programme to replace equipment in the NHS. Why is there no such programme? Can the minister assure me that as a matter of urgency he will deal with the failure to replace equipment in the NHS? Will he consider the possibility of introducing a rolling programme to meet future needs?

In the pre-budget statement the Chancellor of the Exchequer passed a sizeable amount of money through to Scotland. That is a measure of the United Kingdom economy's success.

I appreciate what the member said about the resources that are required by the health service. The Executive is focused on delivery in the health service. Trish Godman can rest assured that the money to which she referred will be spent on health. That is a matter for the Cabinet to discuss, and I look forward to my discussions with the minister responsible for health, Malcolm Chisholm. I am sure that the money will be delivered to best effect—real resources for real people and real services delivering for Scotland.

I believe that Trish Godman was alluding to the fact that in England much of the new money that has been allocated to health will be spent on purchasing private health care. We are looking for a commitment that in Scotland the new money will be spent on public NHS equipment. Will the minister guarantee that, instead of making more money for the private health sector, he will improve the public health service?

We should start by focusing on patients, something that Trish Godman tried to do in her question. We need new equipment in the health service that will allow the delivery of much-needed services to the community. The Executive is focusing on that. I remind Tommy Sheridan that per capita spending on the health service is 20 per cent higher in Scotland than it is in England. In the current year we have record investment of £5.9 billion, which is set to rise by £490 million. The member continues to bark from outside this debate, but we are using Scotland's money wisely to deliver services to real people in real communities. We will continue to do that.

I support Trish Godman's comments. Last year the Grampian health authorities told me that 25 per cent of general medical equipment in the region was beyond its standard life. Along with his colleague Malcolm Chisholm, will the minister carry out an audit of the state of medical equipment not just in Grampian, but throughout Scotland? He needs up-to-date figures so that he can know exactly how much investment is required.

The mainstream capital budget for the NHS is double what it was in 1997, which is a measure of the investment that the coalition has made in the health sector. Yesterday's debate on the Finance Committee's stage 2 report on the budget was very interesting. The SNP did not offer any alternatives. It did not tell us what level of taxation it would like to see in Scotland or how it would fill the black hole in the economy of more than £4 billion that would exist under independence.

---

Dental Practitioners

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it plans to take to attract independent dental practitioners back into the national health service. (S1O-4351)

I am aware of difficulties in the provision of NHS dental treatment in some parts of Scotland, including Highland, due principally to staffing shortages. Work is under way nationally to improve the supply of dentists and we are considering a number of proposals for recruitment and retention of dentists that are intended to improve the availability of NHS dental services.

I thank the minister for her answer. She will recognise the fact that an increasing number of celebs, such as Madonna and Paul McCartney, have their teeth done in my constituency.

Recently, the Scottish Executive gave £130,000 to the Highland area in order to improve dental practices' equipment and premises. Will the minister reassure me that such funding will continue in future?

I am surprised that my fellow Liverpudlian has to go all the way to the Highlands to receive dental care, but I am sure that that reflects the standards that he finds there.

As far as equipment is concerned, I assure Jamie Stone that we will continue to provide funds for up-to-date dental surgery provision throughout Scotland.

Given the severe difficulty that faces some people in rural areas in getting dental treatment, is the minister prepared to set herself a target date by which everyone who so wishes will be able to register with a dental practitioner in their own locality?

A great deal of work is going on to ensure that provision is made for people throughout Scotland, and particularly for those who are in rural areas where there appear to be some difficulties. As I have just taken over my brief, I am sure that Mr Morgan will appreciate that I would find it quite difficult to set targets at this stage. However, I am more than happy to discuss the matter with him in further detail, as a number of strands are being taken up in order to provide dentists for those people. At some stage, perhaps we could have a discussion about when people could expect the target mentioned by Mr Morgan to be met.

What action will the minister take when dental screening for school children falls below the statutory obligations that have been outlined by the NHS in Scotland, as is happening in the Highlands? Does she intend to review and upgrade the fee structure for NHS dentists? Finally, I ask Jamie Stone to let the thousands of people who live in the Highlands know how Madonna accessed an NHS dentist, given that they cannot find one.

I will allow Mary Scanlon to get an answer from Jamie Stone later.

Children's dental health is obviously a priority. If we set good patterns in childhood, we will allow all the people in Scotland to have good dental health in future. Therefore, we have a number of targeted programmes, such as offering toothbrushes to those in the early years and healthy eating programmes for children in school. We are taking a number of measures that will, I hope, improve children's dental health throughout Scotland.

On Mary Scanlon's point about the shortage of provision in the Highlands, I refer to Alasdair Morgan's point and to the fact that the Executive is aware of the difficulties that exist. We are developing a number of initiatives, including the consideration of financial incentives for dentists.

---

Employment (Ex-offenders)

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to integrate ex-offenders into the labour market. (S1O-4377)

The Scottish offender employment forum was introduced as a multi-agency approach to improving the employability of offenders through education, training and other opportunities. A Scottish framework document was prepared and launched in May 2000 to assist in the development of local agreements in order to improve the employment prospects of offenders and to make the transition from prison to new deal or other training programmes or employment more efficient.

I thank the minister for his reply and I welcome the employment forum.

Is the minister aware of Liberty Christian Trust, which is an organisation that works with offenders and ex-offenders in the North Lanarkshire, Falkirk and Glasgow areas? Is he aware of the organisation's aims, which are to provide accommodation, employment and purposeful lifestyle training, so that ex-offenders may contribute to and be part of their communities? Will the minister agree that organisations such as Liberty Christian Trust are worthy of Executive support? Will he consider what assistance can be given to the trust so that it can continue its work?

Although I am aware that a number of initiatives are being pursued—not least by Apex Trust Scotland—I do not have the details on the initiative that Cathie Craigie has mentioned. I welcome any positive action that is being taken. Most people would recognise that providing opportunities so that people can gain employment when they are released from prison is—along with the provision of accommodation—one of the more secure ways of trying to reduce reoffending. The Scottish Prison Service and the Executive want to work co-operatively with a number of agencies that are engaged in trying to simplify the process by which people who are in prison can enter the employment market.

The minister will be aware that there are two important factors in assisting ex-offenders to get into employment. First, appropriate training opportunities need to be provided while they are in prison. Secondly, there needs to be good linkage between employment agencies and the prison. What resources are being provided to young offenders institutions to assist the development of good links with the employment agencies to ensure that there is investment in the necessary training while the offenders are in prison in the first place?

I certainly accept the premise of Michael Matheson's question that it is important that offenders receive training while they are in prison as well as help once they come out of prison. Michael Matheson is probably aware of Apex Trust Scotland's Glasgow innovation fund project, which focuses on prisoners who are both unemployed and homeless. That operates from Barlinnie, Low Moss and the Polmont young offenders institution. The throughcare centre in Edinburgh prison also has Apex involvement. I can also advise the Parliament that the Employment Service has six members of staff who work in Scotland's prisons under the fresh start initiative.

The purpose of those schemes is to assist prisoners with the process of training and, when they come out of prison, to provide aftercare to assist them to get employment. An important part of that is that people who are coming out of prison are provided with near-automatic access to the new deal scheme, so that they have the opportunity to get employment and, one hopes, to be able to lead law-abiding lives.

---

Languages

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in taking forward the recommendations in the report of the action group on languages, "Citizens of a Multilingual World". (S1O-4337)

The Scottish Executive published its response to "Citizens of a Multilingual World" on 26 September. The response highlighted a wide range of proposals to encourage more language education in all Scotland's schools. Additional funding for language education from next financial year was also announced. We intend to indicate early in the new year how that funding will be distributed.

Is the minister aware that there is widespread misinterpretation of the principle of entitlement to learn a foreign language as set out in the action group report? That has fuelled speculation that, far from being a right to be welcomed, entitlement is an option that may be rejected. Is the minister concerned to know that there is anecdotal evidence that in some schools measures have been put in place to allow pupils to opt out of studying a foreign language? Will he take urgent steps to end that uncertainty? Otherwise, the principle of entitlement will erode, rather than secure, the place of modern languages.

I understand the concern. If the report's proposals were interpreted in that way, I would want to investigate and find out more about that. The report's intention is to stimulate the learning of modern languages and to try to achieve that at a much earlier age. I referred to all schools because modern language learning needs to start happening in our primary schools as well as our secondary schools.

The report's intention and the intention of policy is not to reduce the amount of modern language learning, but the reverse. We want to recognise the growing importance of modern language learning to our links with Europe and with other economies around the world because there is a need for Scotland to do better.

The minister will be aware of the benefits of immersion teaching of modern languages, which were identified by the action group. Does he have any plans to roll out the Aberdeen pilot project to other areas of Scotland?

The Aberdeen pilot is a very impressive example of what can be done if we focus on the learning of modern languages at an early age. It happens to be in my constituency, but I am sure that every constituency would like to have the benefits of such learning.

It is expensive to deliver that sort of learning and we have to balance our priorities; education authorities have to do likewise. However, we would not have instituted such a pilot and we would not have got involved in stimulating a project of that kind, if we did not intend to find ways of rolling it out more widely.

How will the minister ensure that as many pupils as possible, in all local authorities, have the chance to learn a variety of languages and not just French? Does he agree that the report's recommendations must be driven forward by the Executive and not left to local authorities, if we are to reverse the fall in language course entrants to all Scottish universities, which has already led to the closure of the languages department at the University of Abertay Dundee?

I agree that the Scottish Executive and the education department have a role in relation to this matter, but it would be wrong to think that we alone can achieve the sort of success that Keith Raffan would like. We have to find ways of working in partnership with education authorities and schools to achieve the growth in language learning that everyone in this chamber would like to see.

We are injecting additional funding from the centre. That will be ring-fenced. Funds have risen from £3.7 million to £4.2 million this year. They will grow again to £4.7 million for each of the next two years. That is genuine additional funding. The key will be to use that money effectively to encourage greater development of modern language learning in all of our schools, in whichever part of Scotland.

---

Housing Stock Transfer (Repair and Improvement Grants)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether former Scottish Homes tenants in Glasgow will be eligible for the same repair and improvement grants as will be made available to all former council tenants who bought their home under the right-to-buy legislation should the proposed Glasgow housing stock transfer take place. (S1O-4329)

Former Scottish Homes, council and housing association tenants who bought their home through the right to buy will continue to have the same eligibility to apply for improvement and repairs grants as other home owners.

Is the minister aware of the recent study by Hilland Ritchie Consultants for the Thistle Housing Association? Its report stated:

"The repair and improvement grants currently have a backlog of 3 years and the Council are not in a position to confirm when grants would be available. The grant budget has been constantly reduced, in 1995/96 there was a budget of £24m, this years budget is £6.3m."

The report also stated:

"Many of the owners would be eligible for Care and Repair Grants but … the waiting list is about 4 years. The reality for elderly owners … is that Care and Repair Grants are not available."

What will the minister do to reverse that disgraceful situation?

From the many discussions that we have had on this issue, Kenny Gibson will know that the proposal for the Glasgow housing stock transfer will produce great investment in Glasgow. He will know that the situation of owner-occupiers is under consideration. The Executive is looking into that in great detail and we will report very soon.

The fall in local authority expenditure on improvement and repairs grants is concerning. I am sure that Mr Gibson will support me when I say that we do not intend to ring-fence that support. I do not think that Mr Gibson supports the ring fencing of local authority expenditure—he has certainly not done so in other debates. The fall is not proportionate with the increase in expenditure that has been given to local authorities. Through the improvement task force, we are giving great consideration to the whole policy of improvement and repairs grants; it is an issue that I am sure we will continue to debate in future. I assure Mr Gibson that we will look at the matter very seriously. We are determined to improve the housing conditions of all tenants and owner-occupiers in Glasgow.

---

Prosecution Service

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are being taken to improve the prosecution service. (S1O-4358)

The Lord Advocate and I recognise the pressure under which the Procurator Fiscal Service is working. We are committed to securing public recognition of the excellent work that is already being done and to improving the service that is being delivered.

We have a number of major initiatives under way, including an ambitious information technology strategy, the roll-out of a victim liaison service and a review that will make recommendations on the working practices and systems that are used in serious cases. The reviews of the High Court by Lord Bonomy and of summary procedure by Sheriff Principal McInnes will also provide major opportunities to secure improvement. We have instructed an internal review of the allocation of resources and of the infrastructure for the department to improve the management and support of all staff in the service.

I congratulate the Solicitor General on her appointment and on making her first contribution to the Parliament. [Applause.]

Will the Solicitor General tell us what the Crown Office is doing to deal with the problem of institutional racism in the prosecution service, as revealed by Dr Raj Jandoo's inquiry into the Chhokar murder case? Why did the Crown withdraw the charge that the murder of Firsat Dag was racially motivated?

I will deal with the second point first. Regarding the Dag trial, the Crown prosecuted a murder that had a racial aggravation. As in many prosecutions, what is manifest at the beginning in terms of the evidence that is available to the prosecution cannot manifest itself in the evidence that is produced before the jury. In that case, the prosecutor rightly took the step of not putting the aggravation before the jury. The presiding judge recognised that that was an entirely appropriate measure to take. That does not detract from the horrifying nature of the murder or its impact on the local community. I hope that the conviction will be seen as some redress for the horrific events surrounding the case.

On Mr Canavan's first point about institutional racism, my predecessor took great strides to ensure that the complacency in relation to institutional racism that can be present in many organisations will not persist in the prosecution service in Scotland. I intend to take that work forward with some energy, to ensure that momentum is not lost. We have a draft action plan, which will be considered by the Lawrence steering group, which I will chair. I will take that major issue forward with expedience.

Will the Solicitor General, with the agreement of Firsat Dag's family, agree to meet the family and me to set out a full account of why those particular charges were not prosecuted further? Does the Solicitor General agree that the life sentence that was served on Scott Burrell should send a clear message that we will not accept such incidents in our society and that they will be met with a life sentence?

I would be happy to meet the family and the member to discuss the circumstances and to provide more information if that would be helpful.

I accept that the sentence in this case sends out the clear message to those who may indulge in racially aggravated behaviour that such behaviour will be treated with the utmost seriousness by the prosecution service and that such cases will face robust prosecution in the future. I am sure that the Lord Advocate would wish me to convey that assurance to the Parliament.

I, too, congratulate the Solicitor General on her new role, in which I wish her every success. Will she ensure that no cases in Scotland will be abandoned as a result of insufficiency of resources in the Procurator Fiscal Service? Will she make certain that the Procurator Fiscal Service will be properly and adequately funded?

The Lord Advocate and I recognise the resource issue that has been identified and the pressure that the prosecution service is under. We are in touch with ministerial colleagues on that issue. However, I do not consider that prosecutions have been abandoned on the basis of resources. I assure members that that will not be the case. Every effort will be made to ensure that there is improvement in the use of the resources and their appropriate allocation within the country.

---

HM Treasury (Meetings)

To ask the Scottish Executive when the Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning last met Her Majesty's Treasury ministers and what issues were discussed. (S1O-4341)

I last met the chancellor at the Labour Party conference in October; we discussed a variety of matters.

Did the minister make her Treasury colleagues aware that 1,400 jobs are currently at risk throughout Scotland? Those jobs are mainly in rural areas and, unlike the 1,200 jobs that are regrettably being lost at NEC, are threatened wholly as a result of Government action. The chancellor's aggregates tax is likely to cost the breakwater project in my constituency up to £2 million and, interestingly enough, in Gordon Brown's constituency—

Order. We must have a question.

It is relevant, sir.

It may be relevant, but it is not a question.

Is the minister aware that, in Gordon Brown's constituency, the much-welcomed Rosyth-Zeebrugge ferry project may also incur additional costs of £0.5 million? What economic assessment has been undertaken of the impact of the aggregates tax in Scotland? What representation has she made to the Treasury in London to obtain a derogation for Scotland, similar to the one that Northern Ireland has obtained, given the deleterious effects of the tax?

The Executive is in discussion with the Treasury and other parts of the UK Government about the implementation of the tax. The rules of collective responsibility preclude me from sharing any of those discussions here today. Of course, we are aware of the partial exemption for Northern Ireland.

The minister will be aware of the problems of community economic development companies, such as Mid Deeside Ltd in my constituency, which have problems in accessing core funding as opposed to project funding. Does the minister have any plans to address that issue? She will be aware that I wrote to her recently on the matter.

It is important that the Parliament makes the appropriate resources available to local enterprise companies, and that those companies have the opportunity to decide priorities in their areas. A variety of local organisations contribute in important ways to economic development in their areas, but it is important that responsibility for that operates through the LEC network. It is not something that we try to second-guess in this Parliament. As Mr Rumbles is a good Liberal, I am sure that the principle of local accountability for spending decisions is one that commends itself to him.

I thank the minister for giving me notice of the closure of the individual learning accounts scheme as of this afternoon. Will the minister indicate the concerns about fraud and corruption that led to the closure of the scheme? Can she confirm whether the scheme has been closed or suspended? Will she indicate the number of companies and organisations that are affected?

I seek the Presiding Officer's guidance. A parliamentary question has been lodged on individual learning accounts, I have written to Alex Neil in his capacity as convener of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, and I am aware that a question has been lodged for the First Minister. I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to answer any further questions, given that the original question concerned the aggregates tax.

Actually, the original question was not about the aggregates tax; it was as set out under question 9. If the minister discussed with the Treasury the issue to which Alex Neil referred, she is welcome to answer the question, but if she did not, she cannot.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The issue is well within the minister's responsibilities, and it is well within the remit of the question. Given that there has not been time for a ministerial statement, the chamber is entitled to know the facts.

If the minister does not want to answer, that is the end of the matter.

I am happy to answer on individual learning accounts if it is appropriate to do so, but the Treasury has no locus of any kind in the matter. I seek your guidance, Presiding Officer.

In that case, we will move to question 10.

---

Housing Stock Transfer (Dumfries and Galloway)

To ask the Scottish Executive how transfer of Dumfries and Galloway's local authority housing stock to the Dumfries and Galloway housing partnership would benefit tenants. (S1O-4349)

Tenants would receive significant new investment in their homes, rent guarantees and the opportunity to become directly involved in the management of their homes and estates. The investment programme would also lead to additional job and training opportunities in the Dumfries and Galloway area.

The minister is aware that Dumfries and Galloway Council is the only council in Scotland that has a Labour-SNP coalition—something, no doubt, that we will see more of under proportional representation. While we might expect SNP councillors to undermine a flagship council policy on housing stock transfer, does the minister agree that it is regrettable that senior Labour councillors are consistently undermining the housing stock transfer? Does she believe that they should either get out of the administration or stay in it and argue the case for stock transfer?

I am pleased to answer that question, because I have had many robust discussions with some of my friends in Dumfries and Galloway. It is no secret that there is a debate in the Labour movement about the strength of the housing stock transfer policy. I am aware that my Labour colleagues in Dumfries and Galloway are concerned, and are committed to the delivery of a housing service.

Only a few senior councillors disagree with the policy; not all members of the Labour group disagree. I have no hesitation in telling the member that those senior councillors are wrong. I am sure that we can persuade them that when they see the opportunities that the policy delivers, and see and understand that through a partnership between—

They must still be socialists.

Perhaps Mr Sheridan could listen instead of shouting. It is not appropriate to always treat members in this way.

Those councillors will understand that, through the partnership with Westminster—where at last the Chancellor of the Exchequer is delivering on the housing debt—we are getting to the root causes of underinvestment in Scottish housing. The Executive is bringing its commitment to Scottish housing. We are levering in additional finance. We are getting tenants to the table. That is the modern way to deliver housing for our people in Scotland. Labour councillors, I am sure, will ultimately be persuaded by that.