The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Procurement Reform (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with amendments, members should have the bill as amended at stage 2, SP bill 38A; the marshalled list of amendments, SP bill 38A-ML; and the groupings, SP bill 38A-G.
The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for five minutes for the first division of the afternoon. The period of voting for the first division will be 30 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate. Members who wish to speak in the debate on any group of amendments should press their request-to-speak buttons as soon as possible after the group is called. Members should now refer to the marshalled list of amendments.
Section 8—General duties
Group 1 is on the Scottish living wage. Amendment 11, in the name of James Kelly, is grouped with amendments 14, 6, 7, 9 and 10.
There is no doubt that the living wage is an idea whose time has come. The Labour amendment to pay £7.65 across all public contracts would make a massive difference to the 400,000 people who are not currently on the living wage, many thousands of whom would be covered by those public contracts. That would give many people a rise of £2,600 a year, and some 64 per cent of these people are women. This is an opportunity not only to help women, but to tackle low pay in public contracts. This is a chance to give cleaners and care home staff from Cambuslang to Carnoustie a fair deal.
The living wage is delivered in London, yet here in Scotland we are dragging our heels on the bill. Why is it that Boris Johnson can be so bold yet Nicola Sturgeon is so timid? Nicola Sturgeon’s amendments reflect the fact that the Scottish National Party has moved its position from stage 1, when there was little mention of the living wage in the bill, but the effect is simply a nod in the direction. As the Government itself acknowledges, its amendments do not make payment of the living wage mandatory. The absolute test on the matter would be the cleaners who work on Scottish Government contracts in Scottish Government prisons, who are currently not on the living wage. I challenge the Deputy First Minister to say whether her amendments will make any difference to them. My view is that they will not.
The legal position, as outlined in an answer to David Martin in the European Parliament, is clear:
“Living wage conditions may be included in the contract performance clauses of a public procurement contract”.
Do the SNP MSPs want to make a positive change or have they come here simply to pose in the Parliament’s coffee bars? The point of legislation is to make a difference. Let us not be a pretendy wee Parliament. Let us stand up and be counted. I ask members to vote for the living wage and give a pay boost to thousands of workers on low pay.
I move amendment 11.
I am pleased to recommend my amendments 6, 7, 9 and 10, which considerably strengthen the bill in relation to the payment of the living wage and do so in a way that is both meaningful and legal.
The bill will impact on £10 billion-worth of spending each year. That means that it matters that we do everything that we can in the bill to ensure that that money is spent in a way that contributes to economic prosperity, equality and social justice. However, it also means that, if we get it wrong and end up with court challenges, it will be very costly indeed for Scotland’s taxpayers.
The cabinet secretary knows that I admired the way in which she went forward with minimum pricing of alcohol, which has ended up in court, as was almost certain to happen, via a challenge. Why was she prepared to be bold on that issue but not on this issue, where in fact there is less certainty of a challenge than there was on that issue?
The issues are different. I regret the legal challenge over minimum pricing, but it is about a policy that we are seeking to bring in. This is about public contracts that our public bodies will be awarding here and now. Surely the suggestion is not that we put our public bodies in a position where they will face the risk of legal challenge. I want to ensure that we abide by the law and that we do not put our public bodies at that risk of being taken to court.
As I have said before, we do not disagree with the objective of making payment of the living wage a mandatory requirement of public contracts. It is worth reiterating our record on the issue. We are the first Scottish Government—I will say that again to Labour—the first Scottish Government to adopt the living wage for all our employees and we encourage all other employers, whether public, private or third sector, to pay their staff the living wage.
We are providing funding to the Poverty Alliance to promote living wage accreditation and increase the number of employers paying the living wage in Scotland.
Can the Deputy First Minister give an unequivocal assurance that her amendments will ensure that cleaners working in Scottish Government prisons, who are not currently paid the living wage, will be paid the living wage?
If James Kelly will bear with me, I will explain exactly what our amendments will allow us to do.
My point is that there can be no doubt about this Government’s commitment to the principles of the living wage campaign. We are debating how—not whether—to use the bill to further promote the living wage. As members will be aware, in light of the on-going debate on the living wage, the First Minister wrote to the European Commission seeking further clarification of the legal position. The reply, which we received towards the end of last week, states:
“any such requirements must comply with the Posting of Workers Directive and the related case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union if they are applicable to workers sent from another member State ... a contractual condition to pay a living wage set at a higher rate than the general minimum wage is unlikely to meet the requirement not to go beyond the mandatory protection provided for by the Directive.”
That advice from the Commission—from the commissioner who is responsible for procurement—makes the position on the issue clear.
We are disappointed that that is the case. We will continue to press for further change at EU level, and if such change is forthcoming and it becomes possible to make the living wage a mandatory condition of public contracts, we will take steps to reflect that position in our approach here in Scotland.
However, we have never been prepared to simply wring our hands and say that because EU law prevents us from making the living wage a mandatory condition of contract, we will do nothing. We have considered carefully what we can do within the law. That is why the bill provides that ministers may issue statutory guidance on how workforce matters should be taken into account in procurement decisions. Amendments 9 and 10 make clear that that can deal specifically with the living wage.
That guidance will mean that companies wishing to bid, especially for service contracts where low pay is traditionally an issue, will have their approach to managing, rewarding and engaging with their workforce evaluated. That will include—where it is relevant to the contract—the willingness and ability of bidders to pay the living wage.
Just last week, I met the Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Poverty Alliance and Unison to give them a commitment that we will develop the guidance in partnership with them to ensure that it is robust and that its implementation is carefully monitored.
Will the member take an intervention?
Not at the moment.
In addition to the amendments that will ensure that guidance will deal specifically with remuneration, amendments 6 and 7 will require all contracting authorities to set out their policy on the living wage as part of their procurement strategies.
Taken together, that package of measures sends a very powerful message to businesses wanting to sell to Scotland’s public sector that businesses will be expected to demonstrate their willingness and their ability to pay the living wage and that they will need to be able to demonstrate that they are not winning contracts by undercutting competitors on the basis of a poorly paid workforce.
It is interesting that James Kelly mentions London. I find it particularly interesting that he does not mention Wales—the part of the United Kingdom where Labour is in government—because what we are doing today goes significantly further than the Labour Administration in Wales has managed to go. The Labour Government in Wales says:
“There is no ministerial policy or directive to adopt the living wage into Welsh Government contracts.”
That is what Labour has chosen to do when it is in a position to act, which stands in stark contrast to James Kelly’s rhetoric.
I am proud that this Government will continue to promote the living wage. We will do everything that we can, within the bill and beyond, to ensure that we are furthering the living wage and I urge all members to welcome that position.
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
No—I am about to finish.
Although we cannot support amendments 11 and 14, I hope that members will recognise that we are tackling the issue in the strongest way possible, and we will continue to do so.
In conclusion, I ask that amendments 11 and 14 be rejected, but ask members to back my amendments, which will go further than any previous Scottish Government has gone to ensure that the living wage is central to all that we do with public money.
14:30
I call Alex Johnstone, to be followed by Patrick Harvie and then Tavish Scott. You should all be fairly brief.
I will try to be, Presiding Officer.
I came here to discuss a bill about procurement that will leave public procurement in a position in which it is easy to understand and accessible to all those who wish to bid for public contracts. It is important for our private and third sectors, and it is important that we all understand how it works.
My problem with many of the amendments that will be discussed is that they seem to use the bill as a proxy to introduce valid ideas from across the political spectrum that could be put into the bill as amendments, but which would result in its not being the effective instrument that it would otherwise be.
If we look specifically at the proposal in amendments 11 and 14, we find that James Kelly wishes to use the bill as a way of introducing the living wage across Scotland in public contracts, but we fail to understand that, before we can do that, we need to know how that will be financed. There are, for example, 636 care homes across Scotland, with 40,000 part-time or full-time staff. I wish to see those staff paid appropriately for what they do, and it is important that we all have that objective in the longer term, but amendment 11 could result in average care home costs rising to as much as £1,000 per week per person. That would result in a collapse in our care home sector that would make Southern Cross look like small beer by comparison. I therefore believe that it is inappropriate to exploit the bill for that purpose.
I fully commend the Labour Party for its long-held objective to achieve the living wage in Scotland, but the bill is an inappropriate place in which to bring in the proposal. That makes it necessary for the Conservatives to oppose amendment 11 as it stands.
I recognise that the Government has made progress on the matter, but we support James Kelly’s amendments.
I listened carefully to the Deputy First Minister’s remarks on the legal point. If I wrote down accurately the words in the letter from the European Commission from which she quoted, the word “unlikely” was used. It strikes me that there is still some room for manoeuvre. That is not a no or an unequivocal statement, so I hope that it is open to the Government to press the matter with the European Commission. I am sure that it is considering doing so. It is open to the Government to press that particular point to see whether, even with a limited chance of success, that success, which I am sure the Deputy First Minister wishes to achieve, is possible. Given the equivocal answer from the European Commission, I hope that the Government will take the matter forward in that way.
I will take it as a non-debatable point that most people in the chamber want the living wage to be paid throughout our economy, particularly in the public sector, and believe that poverty pay is a disgrace for our society. I am certainly convinced that both the Deputy First Minister and James Kelly are of one mind on the objective.
I will vote for James Kelly’s amendment, and, if that falls, for the Deputy First Minister’s amendments in the group. However, I say respectfully to James Kelly that presenting the amendment by baiting the other side is perhaps not the best way to make the case. I think that he knows the reaction that he provoked by the way in which he put forward his arguments, and that was probably not the best way to make the case. I understand the frustration that he feels; I, too, have felt that frustration when ministers in the current Administration or the previous Administration have said, “We can’t do this, because EU law prevents us.” He will understand the frustration of my colleagues in the City of Edinburgh Council when they put forward the same thing, and Labour and the Scottish National Party join forces to say no, using more or less the same arguments.
I take the view expressed by Malcolm Chisholm in his intervention. Sometimes, it is necessary for Governments to be willing to test the boundaries of what is allowable. Being willing to go in there and fight for an issue is a more articulate means of making the case with colleagues in Europe than simply advocating for it. The Government did that on minimum pricing, much to its credit, and the Deputy First Minister had a great deal to do with pushing that case. I wish that the same attitude was being taken on procurement and that the Government was willing to test the limits of what is permissible. On that basis, I will vote in favour of the amendments.
I press amendment 11. I was interested to hear the Deputy First Minister’s speech. I heard no indication that the Government’s amendments would close the existing low-pay loophole in which those who are working on contracts on behalf of the Scottish Government are not paid the living wage. Indeed, the proposals would not compel the living wage to be paid.
A lot of the debate has centred round legal argument. Tavish Scott was correct to quote the word “unlikely” from the letter. The letter was not exactly clear. The Deputy First Minister’s intention in mentioning that was to try and give a bit of cover. It is almost like an excuse note—“Please excuse Nicola Sturgeon today; she is not able to take forward the living wage in Parliament.”
This is not a legal issue but one of political will. I am quite sure that there are SNP MSPs who wish that the Government would be a bit bolder on the issue, but it seems that the more cautious voices—the Fergus Ewings and the Alex Salmonds—have unfortunately won the day.
Does the member accept that we would not even have to talk about the living wage if successive Westminster Governments had set the minimum wage at a decent rate and uprated it?
The issue—[Interruption.]
Order.
The issue for the SNP Government and SNP MSPs is whether the bill will deliver a wage of £7.65 an hour across all public contracts. That is the opportunity; that is the challenge. Let us see how they vote when the division comes.
The calls for the living wage are being made not only by the STUC and the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, but by businesses such as KPMG and Nationwide. We should not want to lag behind—we have a real opportunity. We have all seen the photographs of SNP MSPs in which they are pledging their support for the payment of the living wage. This is the chance for them to put their money where their mouths are; this is not a photo opportunity, but a chance to make the living wage a reality. I urge them to vote for a mandatory living wage.
The question is, that amendment 11 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. As this is the first division of the afternoon, Parliament is suspended for five minutes.
14:38 Meeting suspended.
We move to the division on amendment 11.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 74, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 11 disagreed to.
Tories together.
Order.
Group 2 is on the sustainable procurement duty. [Interruption.] Order! Amendment 30, in the name of Patrick Harvie, is grouped with amendments 16, 32 and 39.
14:45
Clearly the whole chamber is seized with excitement about the sustainable procurement duty. I am sure that is what it is, Presiding Officer.
My amendments in this group fall into two areas. Amendment 30 is about the relationship—the balance—between the general duty and the sustainable procurement duty. It is worth recalling that once upon a time, before the bill was introduced, people referred to it as the sustainable procurement bill. Then it became the procurement bill, then the procurement reform bill. Now the sustainable procurement duty is one small section in the bill.
It is good that it is there, and I am very pleased that it is, but as it is phrased at the moment, the bill says that we have a general duty that includes the requirement to
“treat relevant economic operators equally and without discrimination”—
in other words, to act in the interests of a free market in procurement—and that nothing that is done in pursuance of the sustainable procurement duty should conflict with the general duty.
In amendment 30 I seek to say instead that
“Nothing in subsection (1)”—
the general duty—
“is to be taken to prohibit a contracting authority from considering any matter or acting in any way required to fulfil the sustainable procurement duty.”
In other words, sustainable procurement should take precedence and the wider general duty on procurement should exist within that.
At stage 1, the committee called on the Scottish Government to provide further information on how contracting authorities are supposed to balance the duties in practice. In the stage 1 debate, the Deputy First Minister said that she was happy to consider that in more detail and come back to the issue at stage 2. That did not happen: there have been no amendments from the Government to address the question of balance. I hope that the Deputy First Minister will take this opportunity to address the question.
Through amendment 32, I seek to add a requirement in relation to duties under the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 and to the United Nations’ “Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights”.
The Scottish Government has a human rights action plan, which in many ways is a very good document. It says:
“The Scottish and UK Governments, Scottish businesses and the Scottish Human Rights Commission will pursue the development of an action plan to implement the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights by Scotland and raise awareness among Scottish companies of their human rights responsibilities.”
What better way to give effect to that commitment than by including that provision in the guidance on procurement that ministers are expected to publish? That would address the global sustainability issues that go beyond the geographically limited aspects of sustainability in the bill and give procurement a clear link to duties under the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 and the UN’s “Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights”.
Amendment 32 is supported by Amnesty International, which I know many members support. It says:
“Excluding this amendment would be a missed opportunity for the Scottish Government’s human rights agenda.”
I am open to and interested in hearing the arguments on the other amendments in this group, to which I am sympathetic, but I will let the proposers speak to them.
I move amendment 30.
I believe that reducing inequality is a shared ambition across this chamber and my amendment 16 seeks to ensure that that is at the very heart of the sustainable procurement duty.
The duty is framed in general terms, and I understand that the cabinet secretary promised in the stage 2 debate that there would be further definition of the duty in guidance. I could not help but recall that even when I was a minister and we were shaping legislation in the early days of the Parliament, civil servants always advised ministers to avoid putting something on the face of the bill and to offer it up in guidance instead. It appears that not a lot has changed, despite the passage of time.
We should put what matters to us in legislation and, of course, put the detail in guidance. I have always understood that tackling inequality is a key principle of the Scottish Government. Indeed, a mere week ago, the Scottish Government spoke about the persistent inequality in our society. The rhetoric was rightly robust, but we need to do more than shout. We need to and must take action.
If the Parliament agrees to amendment 16, it will be saying that tackling inequality matters. That would be one small step, but it would be central to our making progress. If members share an ambition for a more equal Scotland, as I think we do, they should ensure that we use our considerable public spending to deliver just that, as well as the right framework for awarding contracts.
In everything that we do, we should have a clear, sharp focus on tackling inequality. Such a focus can drive the public sector in considering how it can secure important gains for local communities in the contracts that it awards. We are talking about substantial sums of public money.
This is a practical opportunity for the Scottish Government to demonstrate that it can match its rhetoric with action. It can do so by backing amendment 16.
I understand that Sarah Boyack cannot attend today and that Claudia Beamish will speak to amendment 39.
Amendment 39 would place a duty on the contracting authority, when publicising the award of a contract, to include a statement that sets out how the contract will contribute to the fulfilment of the contracting authority’s sustainable procurement duty.
The sustainable procurement duty is an important provision and it is essential that the requirements are met. Amendment 39 would ensure that, for example, the duties to
“facilitate the involvement of small and medium enterprises”
and
“improve the economic, social, and environmental wellbeing of the authority’s area”
were well publicised, which would clarify public bodies’ commitment to promoting positive social outcomes. The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations has repeatedly stressed the need to put sustainability centre stage, and a clear statement of intent on the public contracts website would ensure that that happened.
At stage 2, the Deputy First Minister voiced concern that such an approach would place an undue burden on public bodies, but my Scottish Labour colleagues and I still think that an explicit duty to publicise the measures that are taken to fulfil the sustainable procurement duty would reinforce the commitment and prevent it from being sidestepped. I hope that members will agree to amendment 39.
I support amendment 16, in Jackie Baillie’s name. It is imperative that inequality is mentioned in the bill. I hope that all members will agree to the amendment.
The sustainable procurement duty is not a small part of the bill, as Patrick Harvie seemed to suggest, but a vital element. Indeed, I would argue that it is the linchpin of the bill. It requires public bodies to think carefully about how the procurement process can make real improvements to their areas and how to enable SMEs, supported businesses and the third sector to access contract opportunities. However, as with every other section of the bill, we must ensure that the section is consistent with EU law, is reasonably simple to apply and does not impose disproportionate burdens on contracting authorities.
As I said at stage 2, I absolutely understand and appreciate Patrick Harvie’s motivation in lodging amendment 30, but my objection to it is pretty fundamental. The general and sustainable procurement duties are framed with a view to helping public bodies to understand how they should be interpreted and applied within the overarching framework of EU law. Section 8(3) makes it clear to authorities that any action that they take under the sustainable procurement duty must be compatible with their duties under EU law.
Amendment 30 would have the effect of creating a bill that sought to impose requirements on public bodies to do things even if they were not compatible with European law. That is not acceptable, and we cannot place public bodies in such a position.
That argument suggests that there are things that are necessary to do to achieve sustainable procurement but which in fact are prohibited by the general duty. What are those things?
No—the bill says that, at all times, in implementing either the sustainable procurement duty or the general duties or specific duties, authorities must operate within the confines of European law. I would have thought that all members would acknowledge the importance of that.
Patrick Harvie made valid and legitimate comments about the guidance that we should give contracting authorities to help them to balance the different aspects of the sustainable procurement duty. He will be aware that section 9A provides for guidance. In developing that guidance, I would be happy to engage with Patrick Harvie on how we do so in a way that encourages contracting authorities to make the best and maximum use of the sustainable procurement duty. However, we cannot put public authorities in a position in which we require them to do things regardless of their compliance with EU law. That is a pretty simple point, I think.
Amendment 16 relates to considerations of wellbeing in the sustainable procurement duty and seeks to define wellbeing as including the reduction of inequality, an objective on which I think we all agree. Reducing inequality is clearly part of an authority’s general duty in promoting the wellbeing of its area. Although there is an argument for the duty to be framed in general terms, as I said at stage 2, I am sympathetic to the intent of the amendment and, on further reflection, and at the risk of completely taking the feet away from Jackie Baillie, I confirm that I will support it, which demonstrates that her cynicism about ministers is, as usual, completely misplaced.
The purpose of amendment 32 is to place a duty on the Scottish ministers, when preparing guidance on the sustainable procurement duty, to consider the likely effects on global sustainability and the compliance by authorities with their duties under the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 and the UN “Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights”. Again, I emphasise the need for the bill to be pragmatic and reasonably simple to comply with. The bill already provides a mechanism for dealing with companies that do not meet appropriate standards. Contracting authorities already have to comply with a range of requirements that are derived from EU law on equal treatment and from national equality legislation, in addition to being subject to obligations under the Human Rights Act 1998.
As everybody is aware, the public sector procures a diverse range of goods, services and works, so it is important that the statutory guidance that will support the duty is flexible and adaptable and is not seen to be disproportionate. Therefore, I do not support Patrick Harvie’s amendment 32, but I reaffirm and reissue the invitation that I extended to him at stage 2 to discuss how we use the statutory guidance that will underpin the duty to encapsulate his points about the wider implications of procurement exercises, and indeed to be involved in the drafting of that guidance. I can give an assurance, which I know will be important to organisations such as Amnesty International, to which Patrick Harvie referred, that we see the development of guidance as an important opportunity to identify and explain how the UN guiding principles are best reflected in our procurement processes. I hope that Patrick Harvie will take up the offer to be involved in the next stage of the process.
On Sarah Boyack’s amendment 39, I again stress the importance of keeping the burden on public bodies to a minimum. Section 14 will require contracting authorities to prepare and publish an annual report, which will include a summary of regulated procurements and a review of whether those procurements complied with the authorities’ procurement strategies. It is therefore not necessary or proportionate to require contracting authorities to state in every single contract award notice how the contract will contribute to improving the economic, social and environmental wellbeing of the authority’s area. That would add an unnecessary and disproportionate burden of bureaucracy.
In conclusion, I ask Patrick Harvie to seek to withdraw amendment 30 and to not move amendment 32; I ask Claudia Beamish, on behalf of Sarah Boyack, not to move amendment 39; and I reiterate my willingness to support amendment 16 in the name of Jackie Baillie.
15:00
The Deputy First Minister described the sustainable procurement duty as the “linchpin” of the bill. I cannot read the bill in any other way than that it suggests that the duties in section 8—the general duties—are the linchpin. They are the critical and vital element on which contracting authorities will primarily focus, with a secondary focus on the sustainable procurement duty. Therefore, I disagree that the Deputy First Minister’s description of the bill is accurate.
Notwithstanding the smile on Jackie Baillie’s face as she heard that her amendment 16 would be accepted, she made a decent point that, although ministers and civil servants often take the instinctive position that less is more in a bill and that we should leave everything to guidance, Parliament needs to steer the development of guidance. Even agreeing amendments to bills that indicate to ministers the issues that they ought to address when they draft guidance gives Parliament the ability to give that steer, which the Parliament should do on ethical issues as critical as inequality, sustainability, climate change and human rights.
Particularly in relation to amendment 32, the Deputy First Minister said that the bill needs to be simple to comply with. Amendment 32 would not add huge complexity for contracting authorities or people responsible for procurement processes; it would add one relatively simple task for ministers, not anyone else, to undertake. If the Government is serious about addressing in the guidance the ethical issues to which the amendment relates, having in the bill the requirement for it to do so seems a relatively simple and trivial task for Parliament to set it. Amendment 32 is about ministers’ compliance with the legislation, not anything else.
I am grateful for the invitation to engage further. However, from stage 1 onwards, there have been continual indications that an attempt would be made to address the matter during the bill’s passage but, I am afraid, that has not happened. Therefore, I will press amendments 30 and—when it comes to the time—32 to the vote.
The question is, that amendment 30 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 39, Against 80, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 30 disagreed to.
Section 9—Sustainable procurement duty
Group 3 is on sustainable procurement duty and strategy: specific issues. Amendment 15, in the name of Jackie Baillie, is grouped with amendments 31, 19 and 37.
I will speak to amendment 15 and all others in the group. The suggestion was made from a sedentary position that I should quit while I was ahead. Ever the optimist, while I am grateful for the cabinet secretary’s support for amendment 16, I live in hope that she will continue her consensual manner with my remaining amendments.
Amendment 15 seeks to promote compliance with the public sector equality duty, and amendment 19 relates to public bodies setting out how they will promote such compliance.
It is perhaps worth explaining what the public sector equality duty requires. It is set out in section 149 of the Equality Act 2010, which requires that, when exercising their functions, listed public authorities must
“have due regard to”
matters such as
“the need to—
eliminate discrimination, harassment”
and
“victimisation ... advance equality of opportunity”
and
“foster good relations”.
The phrase “have due regard” means that, when public bodies make decisions, they must consciously consider the needs that are expressed in the duty. However, the amount of regard that they need to give depends very much on the nature of that decision. For example, a procurement decision on a service for older people would require far more consideration, rightly, than a procurement decision on purchasing stationery. The duty should, of course, be exercised in a proportionate manner.
I was driven to lodge amendments 15 and 19 because of an evaluation of the public sector equalities duties that was conducted by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. It would be fair to say that it reported a mixed picture and said that the good intentions were not backed by thought-through and measurable outcomes. We know that the main challenge lies in implementation. Therefore, making consideration of the public sector equality duty very much a key part of the procurement process will undoubtedly help us to move from those good intentions to practical application and implementation.
Finally, I take the view that this bill is about the delivery of good-quality public services. Irrespective of who delivers those public services—the private sector, the public sector or the voluntary sector—we should expect the same high standards of delivery.
I therefore urge support for my amendments 15 and 19 and for amendments 31 and 37, which Claudia Beamish will address.
I move amendment 15.
I will speak to amendments 31 and 37, which I believe in strongly and which deal with standards of health and wellbeing and the education of communities, as well as animal welfare.
Amendment 31 seeks to alter section 9, placing on public bodies a requirement to consider their policy on food procurement. The policy aim behind the provision on health and wellbeing is mirrored by the Scottish Government’s guidance document, “Catering for Change—Buying food sustainably in the public sector”, so I see no reason why it cannot be incorporated into the bill.
We have a lot of good examples of sustainable food procurement projects in Scotland. Examples that immediately spring to mind are the better eating, better learning campaign; the food for life programme; the food for change initiative; and, of course, the good work that is done by Nourish Scotland and the Soil Association. Amendments 31 and 37 seek to require public bodies to emulate those examples and work towards a truly sustainable food procurement policy, with local supply chains, while further educating the public on the benefits.
There is no reason why those methods of procurement cannot be universal, and, as I understand the situation, there need be no issues with EU compliance. East Ayrshire, for example, has demonstrated that the proposal is possible. A clear and explicit reference in the bill, backed by guidance, would ensure that we could make this happen, rather than being dependent on a few enthusiastic individuals.
Further, as vice-convener of the cross-party group on animal welfare, I am keenly aware that there is always public interest in animal welfare issues. At present, there is debate about the labelling of non-stun slaughtered meat. More broadly, humane production is part of food quality, and consumers have a right to choose as individuals. Labelling is important. There have been many culture changes in recent years, such as with the consciousness of the welfare of chickens, which has led to free-range egg purchases. Further, the recent horsemeat scandal has shown that labelling standards must be far more proactively enforced.
Millions of animals are affected by the choices that public bodies, with their substantial purchasing power, make in the procurement process, so amendment 31 would ensure that animal welfare is a real consideration for public bodies. Consequently, passing the amendment would mean that a public body automatically needs to include in its procurement strategy, which it is required to have under section 11, information about how it intends to ensure compliance on those issues, as well as including mention of those issues in its annual report. That would further solidify the foundations upon which the bill is built.
Amendment 37 seeks to achieve the same policy aim as amendment 31, but it is designed in a more light-touch manner. Rather than requiring the public body to consider the health, wellbeing and education of communities and animal welfare standards during each individual food procurement, the amendment would require the public body to include a general statement on its overall approach.
My colleagues and I would, of course, prefer that the more focused and comprehensive amendment 31 is passed. However, if that proves not to be possible, I urge members to vote for the alternative that is provided by amendment 37, which I am sure they will agree is a wholly credible and reasonable compromise.
I will deal first with amendments 15 and 19. Contractors that are performing what would otherwise be regarded as a public function, whether running a prison or another public building, are already subject to the public sector equality duty in relation to that function.
The application of the Equality Act 2010 will have been considered in detail during the consultation and scrutiny process that it went through, so I think that there is an argument that it would not be right to use this bill to seek to extend duties imposed by other legislation upon public bodies.
Fundamentally, equality is already an integral part of the bill. It is part of the sustainable procurement duty. The guidance that will follow will elaborate on that and will make clear the connection between the equality duty and procurement processes. After the passage of the bill—assuming that Parliament passes it—we will be focusing our energy on the development of the guidance and the regulations and on engaging with our stakeholders, including equality stakeholders, in their development. I am not able to support amendment 15 or amendment 19.
I turn to amendments 31 and 37. There is a reasonable issue here. The arguments that were put at stage 2—all of which I listened to very carefully—have made me think that there is a need to do more to put a specific reference to food procurement on the face of the bill, given its importance.
Amendment 31 would amend the sustainable procurement duty to require purchasers to consider how, in conducting a procurement process involving the purchase of food, they can improve the health, wellbeing and education of communities and promote the highest standards of animal welfare.
Amendment 37 addresses the same issue but through the procurement strategy. Given some of the definitional issues here, I am of the view that it is more appropriate and proportionate to address these issues through the strategy in section 11 of the bill as opposed to creating a new duty under section 9. I am happy to support amendment 37, but I am not able to support amendment 31.
Claudia Beamish set out very well the case for dealing with food provision on the face of the bill and for the compromise amendment that would put it within the procurement strategy. I am delighted that the cabinet secretary appears to be having a very consensual afternoon and that she agrees with amendment 37. I live in hope for the rest.
I recognise that the Scottish Government has already produced guidance on procurement—and welcome it is, too. However, it covers the planning of procurement services, developing a strategy and even encouraging public authorities to undertake equality impact assessments. What is less clear is whether any of those assessments have been undertaken and whether any measurable difference has been made. Is there a difference between the Government’s good intentions and the practice and implementation? The truth is that we just do not know.
If we care, let us signal the importance of the issue by putting it on the face of the bill, not just in guidance. The cabinet secretary has done it once this afternoon; let me encourage her to do it again. If a service is a public service, irrespective of whether it is delivered by the public, private or voluntary sector, people have a right to expect the same high standard. Importantly, that includes compliance with public sector equality duties.
The question is that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 15 disagreed to.
15:15Amendment 31 moved—[Claudia Beamish].
The question is, that amendment 31 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 31 disagreed to.
Amendment 16 moved—[Jackie Baillie]—and agreed to.
Section 9A—Guidance on sustainable procurement duty
Amendment 32 moved—[Patrick Harvie].
The question is, that amendment 32 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 10, Against 109, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 32 disagreed to.
After section 9A
Amendment 14 moved—[James Kelly].
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 14 disagreed to.
After section 10
That brings us to group 4, which is on circumstances where participation is restricted or no offers are sought. Amendment 33, in the name of Mary Fee, is grouped with amendments 35 and 36.
Amendment 33 aims to enable and support the third sector in the procurement process. The third sector provides higher levels of care and innovation across a range of services, but it is often excluded because of the size of costs that are associated with participating in procurement contracts.
The Health and Social Care Alliance Scotland briefing on the bill states that
“a history of competitive tendering processes has acted as a barrier to the third sector’s engagement”
and that many organisations have disengaged completely from the process even when their service could have made a great contribution. We must support and protect our third sector, and excluding specific contracts in specific circumstances would do that. The proposal is similar to that of supported businesses and would bring long-lasting benefits to the third sector, which has had to work with tightened budgets and increasing pressure over recent years.
Amendment 35 would require ministers to lay regulations specifying what a health and social care service is for the purpose of the bill, instead of its specification being an option. That would guarantee clarity for contracting authorities. In my view, guidance cannot be an option in a health and social care service.
Amendment 36 would require ministers to lay regulation and guidance specifying what regulated contracts may be awarded without offers being sought. Again, that would enable and encourage participation.
I move amendment 33.
Amendment 33 would allow public bodies to limit participation in a regulated procurement to third sector bodies. As I said at stage 2, I am sympathetic to the aim of the amendment but I do not believe that it would be EU law compliant. I will explain in detail why that is the case.
It might be possible in the case of some procurement exercises to restrict competition to the third sector, but that will depend on the particular circumstances of the competition. In some cases, the treaty obligations that flow from EU law will apply even at the contract values within the scope of the bill. Restricting competition in such cases would be discriminatory and therefore incompatible with EU law.
An obvious question is that of how we can limit competition to supported business, as we do in the bill, but not to the third sector. The straightforward answer is that EU procurement law makes specific provision to restrict competition to supported businesses. It does not make specific provision for the third sector, which is a much broader category of organisations.
Although we cannot accept amendment 33, I emphasise the importance that we attach to the third sector’s role in delivering public services. Our response to the Christie commission’s report on the future delivery of public services emphasised that the third sector has a crucial role to play because of its specialist expertise, its ability to engage with vulnerable groups and—particularly important—its ability to be flexible and innovative. Indeed, one of the four priorities at the heart of the bill is improved access to public sector contracts, particularly for small businesses and third sector organisations.
On amendment 35, the power in subsection (3) of section 10A is drafted to be consistent with other subordinate legislation provisions in the bill. The Government intends to produce regulations under that power, so changing “may” to “must” will have no practical effect. The amendment is, therefore, unnecessary and would lead to inconsistent legislation.
In a similar vein, I do not think that amendment 36 is necessary. The power in section 10C is drafted to be consistent with other powers in the bill, and ministers have discretion in how that power is to be exercised, so the use of the term “may” in that section is appropriate.
I therefore ask that the amendments in the group be disagreed to.
I thank the Deputy First Minister for her comments. In evidence, we heard a lot about the bill being an enabling piece of legislation. It is incumbent on us, as politicians, to encourage and support our third sector and the valuable work that it does. Restricting contracts to the third sector would level the playing field, as it does in helping supported businesses. Such restriction would also allow continuity of care and support, the value of which is immeasurable to those who receive care, including continuity for those who provide the care. Although I accept the sympathy offered by the Deputy First Minister, we need more than sympathy—we need action to support the sector.
On amendments 35 and 36, regarding the Deputy First Minister’s remarks about ministers’ discretion in producing guidance, I am not confident that allowing ministers to have discretion will give us the level of guidance that we need.
I therefore press amendment 33.
The question is, that amendment 33 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 76, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 33 disagreed to.
Section 10A—Contracts for health or social care services
Amendment 35 moved—[Mary Fee].
The question is, that amendment 35 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 76, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 35 disagreed to.
Section 10C—Other circumstances in which contract can be awarded without competition
Amendment 36 moved—[Mary Fee].
The question is, that amendment 36 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 76, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 36 disagreed to.
Section 11—Procurement strategy
Group 5 is on supported businesses. Amendment 2, in the name of Mark Griffin, is grouped with amendments 20 and 3.
I speak in support of amendments 2 and 3 in my name, which would apply only to public bodies in Scotland that engage in procurement activity with a value of £5 million or more. As I said at stage 2, I do not think that it is unreasonable of us to expect a public authority that spends more than £5 million to award at least one contract to a supported business.
My amendments seek to achieve the Government’s stated policy ambition, as set out in the supported business framework, that public authorities should award “at least one contract” to a supported business. They do not say that an authority must award a contract to a supported business; they simply ask it to set out how it is working towards the Government’s aim.
15:30The Deputy First Minister commented at stage 2 on my amendments, which I have lodged again, and she has also lodged a Government amendment, which I support, as it is a move in the right direction.
The Deputy First Minister said that she had two issues with the drafting of my stage 2 amendments, but that she had sympathy with them. She said, first, that by asking public bodies to look ahead to what procurement activity they could restrict to supported business, the amendments were
“effectively asking public bodies to look into a crystal ball”.—[Official Report, Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee, 19 March 2014; c 2842.].
On the surface, that might seem a reasonable comment, but section 14(2)(d) of the bill, on annual procurement reports, states that an annual procurement report should include
“a summary of the regulated procurements the authority expects to commence in the next two financial years”.
If contracting authorities can set out a summary of the regulated procurements that they expect to commence in the next two years, why would it be so difficult for an authority to set out where it intends to restrict procurement to a supported business in a single year?
The second point on which the Deputy First Minister objected to my amendments was that she did not want to set the bar too low in terms of procurement from supported business and that we should not simply allow public authorities to tick it off as a good deed done for the year. I completely agree with her, but there are public authorities in Scotland today that are not even clearing that low bar of a single contract with a supported business.
In response to freedom of information requests submitted to public authorities across Scotland, it has emerged that there are 44 authorities in Scotland that do not have a single contract with a supported business. Those are not insignificant public authorities with low levels of procurement; they range from health boards to Government bodies and local authorities right across the country. Although I entirely agree with the Deputy First Minister that we do not want to set a minimum level so that authorities think that they do not have to go beyond that level, when so many large bodies are not awarding even a single contract it is time that we started pushing harder.
I move amendment 2.
Before I call the Deputy First Minister, I ask members to take their conversations outside the chamber.
Helping supported businesses is important to the Government generally and in relation to procurement, and that commitment was reflected in the bill as drafted, as I think all members would accept.
At stage 2, I gave a commitment to the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee that I would consider what more might be done, particularly in relation to the reporting of levels of engagement with supported business. Mark Griffin makes a reasonable point: we need to ensure that our expectations of public bodies are delivered in practice.
As a result, I am pleased to have lodged amendment 20, which will require public bodies who prepare an annual report to include in that report a summary of the steps taken to facilitate the involvement of supported businesses in regulated procurements during the year covered by the report. It has the same, or a very similar, overall effect to amendment 3, but I think that it is preferable to amendment 3.
As Mark Griffin has said, amendment 3 refers to the awarding of
“at least one contract to a supported business”.
I absolutely agree that that is not an unreasonable expectation and that we should be firm in our expectation that public authorities that are doing procurement should have at least one contract with supported businesses. However, I want to be careful that we do not send a signal to public bodies that says that just one is enough. We should not be playing to the minimum on such an important issue. Amendment 20 gives Mark Griffin what he is seeking in terms of reporting, without the limitation that would be a concern.
I apologise to Mark Griffin if I have picked him up wrongly, but it is important to distinguish between procurement strategy and reports on procurement strategies, which I think he may have slightly mixed up in some of the points that he has made. Amendment 2 would require public bodies to state in their strategy whether they intend to restrict competition to supported businesses and how they intend to ensure that they award at least one contract to a supported business.
I will not repeat my points about playing to the minimum and saying that one contract is enough. My objection here is the one that Mark Griffin described as the “crystal ball” objection. I think that that was quite a good description, to be fair to him. Because the amendment refers to the strategy that a public authority has to prepare at the start of the year, we would in effect be asking public authorities to decide at the start of the year whether at any point during that year they intended to run a procurement that it would be appropriate to restrict to supported businesses. If the amendment was agreed to, they would be expected in the procurement strategy to be pretty definitive about that.
However, at the start of the year, public authorities will not necessarily know what all their requirements for procurement throughout the year will be. We would be putting into the bill something that, in a practical sense, it would be difficult to the point of impossibility for public authorities meaningfully to deliver. I ask Mark Griffin, as I did at stage 2, to think about that practical objection to his amendments.
That said, and as I repeated today, I am more than sympathetic to—in fact, I am totally in agreement with—the intent behind the amendments, especially in relation to reporting, because it is that which will let us ensure that our expectations are being delivered, and that is precisely what amendment 20 seeks to address.
I ask Mark Griffin to withdraw amendment 2 and to not move amendment 3, and I ask the Parliament to support amendment 20.
I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments and, as I did earlier, for her movement in lodging amendment 20. The point that I made about procurement strategies and annual procurement reports was that, in the annual reports, public authorities will be expected to look forward two years to the procurement that they will carry out, so I do not find great difficulty in asking them in their procurement strategies to look forward one year to identify areas in which they could restrict procurement to supported businesses. That would allow the supported businesses in Scotland a lot more confidence about where their work is coming from.
However, the main thrust of my amendments is about allowing the Government to make, through a procurement strategy, its own policy of every public authority in Scotland having a contract with at least one supported business. I do not want every public authority in Scotland simply to have one such contract, but I think that that step is required to push the ones that are falling below even that low bar to meet that standard. Some 44 public authorities in Scotland do not have a single contract with a supported business. As I said at the outset, they are not insignificant authorities. They are local authorities, health boards and central Government organisations. With that in mind, I press amendment 2.
The question is, that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 43, Against 76, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 2 disagreed to.
Amendment 6 moved—[Nicola Sturgeon]—and agreed to.
Group 6 is on consideration to be given to various employment practices. Amendment 17, in the name of Jim Eadie, is grouped with amendments 24, 42 and 43.
I welcome the opportunity to speak to amendment 17, which seeks to promote compliance by contractors and sub-contractors with the provisions of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974.
The purpose of the amendment is to extend the minimum content that a corporate procurement strategy should contain to include a statement of the authority’s general policy on promoting compliance with health and safety legislation. The amendment places a requirement on contracting authorities that are compelled by the bill to produce a corporate procurement strategy to include in it a statement of the authority’s general policy on promoting compliance with the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and any provisions made under that act.
Health and safety did not feature in the public consultation on the policy content of the bill. I am therefore indebted to Kathy Jenkins of the Scottish Hazards campaign group and Louise Taggart of families against corporate killers, which are two campaign groups that are focused on improving health and safety in the workplace and thereby reducing the toll of work-related death, injury and illness. Both organisations recognise that good work has been done to date by the Scottish Government but believe that the additional step proposed in the amendment could further enhance the public sector’s role in driving good health and safety practice.
Implementing the provisions in the amendment across the public sector in Scotland would be a very welcome development that would go some way towards helping to reduce the incidence of family members having to hear that a death could and should have been prevented, had an employer only complied with its health and safety duties.
The amendment would allow us to embed health and safety into the foundations of our procurement strategy. That being so, I hope that the Deputy First Minister will welcome my amendment and support its inclusion in the bill.
I move amendment 17.
A postcard on the noticeboard in my office reads, “Prepare your daughter for working life—give her less pocket money than your son.” It is, disappointingly, still the case that there is a gender pay gap, with women on average earning less than men. That is despite good legislation in the Equal Pay Act 1970 and, undoubtedly, good intention in the chamber. However, the lesson is that it is not enough in and of itself to have legislation; it is the implementation that makes the difference.
Equal pay audits are a key implementation tool. Members will know that equal pay audits consider pay gaps by gender, ethnicity, disability and working pattern. They are relatively easy to carry out and there is a lot of support for employers, including toolkits and hands-on advice about how to conduct an equal pay audit and what to do with the results. It really is as easy as ABC. However, it is what employers do with the information that they get that is crucial.
The benefits for business are well documented: improved productivity, improved staff retention and improved performance. Those are all positives that we can agree on. Many employers recognise that their greatest asset is their workforce. It is therefore not good for the quality of their product or service if one set of employees is treated differently from another because they happen to be female or disabled. Taking action to close the gap sets businesses ahead of their competitors, so what is there not to like?
The cabinet secretary said at stage 2 that she was not sure that the proposal in an amendment that I lodged at that stage would be consistent with our obligations under EU law on equal treatment of suppliers. However, under the provisions in the bill, public bodies can and will make judgments about what matters to them in deciding contracts. They will decide who gets and does not get a contract according to a range of different criteria, all of which appear to fit with our EU obligations, so why not have an equal pay audit criterion? If the cabinet secretary was being consistent, she would recognise that it fits, too.
At stage 2, the cabinet secretary defaulted to her mantra that the issue will not be dealt with in the bill but will be considered in guidance. Let me encourage her to break free from her civil servants. By supporting amendment 24, she can make a positive difference to enhancing equality in relation to pay, which is something that would be warmly welcomed by women and disabled people across the country.
15:45
I will speak to my amendments 42 and 43. I support all the amendments in the group.
I draw members’ attention to my trade union membership, as declared in the register of members’ interests.
As with the bill as a whole, I am torn between praising the Scottish Government for recognising the power of procurement to shape the moral economy, and chastising it for not following its own reasoning and doing much more.
Amendments 42 and 43 are designed to help to capture in legislation the whole concept of the decent job—not work at any price or exploitative, demeaning or impoverishing jobs, but sustainable employment that recognises the importance and dignity of work.
Although the Scottish Government voted against the amendments that I lodged at stage 2, I am very pleased that it has recognised the strength of the arguments in favour of trade union recognition. Political discussion in our country often portrays the economy as riven by a clash of interests between employer and trade union, although all the evidence demonstrates that success and prosperity depend on a partnership between the two. Such a collaborative approach allowed the German economy to withstand the worst of the recession. Research overwhelmingly suggests that trade union recognition will improve the health and safety of our workplaces.
Amendment 43 will ensure that public funds are used more effectively. Trade unions remain at the heart of the efficient delivery of all Scotland’s public services, from the national health service to the rail industry. We need to extend that thinking so that Government in all its forms follows it. Quite simply, if companies such as Amazon fail to pay their taxes, refuse to recognise trade unions and employ workers on zero-hours contracts, they should not receive public funds.
I particularly thank my own trade union, Community, which is a progressive trade union that I am very proud to be a member of and which originally proposed amendment 43. I congratulate the Scottish Government on working with it and trade union colleagues in the STUC in drafting the amendment, which could be a landmark one in recognising trade unions in Scotland.
Amendment 42 is essentially about promoting equality. It would allow the Scottish Government to encourage employers to minimise wage ratios between the highest paid and the lowest paid. It is worth reminding ourselves that the majority of people who live in poverty in our country are not unemployed; rather, they come from working households. The vast majority of Scots will be only too aware that, over the past four years, wages have failed to keep pace with rising prices, from food to fuel bills, but it is certainly not the case that we are all in this together. In 2012, the average chief executive of a FTSE 100 company was paid £4.8 million per year, or 185 times the average salary—an increase from £1.2 million in 1999. According to the Equality Trust, wage ratios are estimated to be around 10:1 in the voluntary sector, roughly 15:1 in the public sector, and approximately 262:1 in FTSE 100 companies.
There are many steps that the Scottish Government can take to reduce that wage gap and promote equality. In the education sector alone, I simply highlight the contrast between the pay and wage increases that university principals have enjoyed and the widespread use of zero-hours contracts.
In public procurement, the Equality Trust has estimated that none of the large public service industry organisations—those are the companies that carry out work in this area—paid its chief executive officer less than 59 times UK median earnings. For example, Serco’s previous chief executive was paid an estimated £3.1 million in 2010, which is six times more than the highest-paid UK public servant and 11 times more than the highest-paid local authority chief executive.
Research demonstrates that reducing inequality is just one way in which we can promote faster and more durable economic growth. The cabinet secretary said that she agreed with my arguments on the amendments that I lodged at stage 2, but she then encouraged members to vote against them. If she shares Labour’s desire to build a more resilient, sustainable and ethical economy, I urge her not just to have sympathy with the arguments, but to vote for both amendments.
I will take the amendments in the group in turn, starting with amendment 17, in the name of Jim Eadie, which I support. Amendment 17 will ensure that public bodies set out their policies on the very important issue of health and safety. Nothing that we purchase should ever come at the expense of the safety of those who are involved in its manufacture, construction or provision.
On amendment 24, I hope that very few people—in fact, I hope that no one—would disagree that equal pay audits bring benefits and clarity to employer and employee alike. I hope that each and every one of us in the chamber would agree whole-heartedly with the promotion of equal pay for equal work. The Scottish Government is committed to the reduction of the gender pay gap. We have under way a significant work programme that is aimed at increasing women’s economic participation, tackling occupational segregation and reducing gender imbalances throughout public life. I take the view that it is outrageous that the Equal Pay Act 1970, which was passed in the year in which I was born—I say that without fear of giving away my age because everyone knows that anyway—is still not implemented fully. It speaks badly of successive Westminster Governments that the act has not been implemented fully over those nearly 44 years. Pay discrimination on the basis of any other protected characteristic is equally unacceptable.
Jackie Baillie rightly said—I will say it again—that we do not think that limiting competition to companies that have conducted an equal pay audit would be consistent with our obligations under EU law on the equal treatment of suppliers. For example, it could exclude bidders who have not carried out an audit but who comply fully with equal pay requirements.
Jackie Baillie said that the issue is not covered in the bill—I think that her speech in that respect was written before I conceded one of her earlier amendments—but the bill provides for guidance to be issued on how workforce-related matters should be considered in a procurement context. I am happy to repeat the commitment that I have given consistently throughout the bill process to consider the issue in the context of that guidance.
It is for very similar reasons that I am not able to support Ken Macintosh’s amendment 42. Mandatory contractual obligations, whether we like it or not, can be imposed in procurement only where those are relevant and proportionate to the subject matter of the contract.
I turn to amendment 43. Ken Macintosh lodged an amendment at stage 2 on the notion that effective employee representation and trade union recognition are important and are to be supported. I said that I agreed with that amendment but had a reservation about it and highlighted that a clear regime is in place under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, which includes measures concerning the recognition of trade unions. However, I was keen to see whether we could reach agreement on an amendment about trade union recognition. Therefore, I was very pleased that Ken Macintosh took me up on the offer of further dialogue to see whether we could agree a positive approach that we would both find acceptable. In light of that dialogue, we have amendment 43, which I am very happy to support.
To conclude, I support Jim Eadie’s amendment 17 and Ken Macintosh’s amendment 43, but I do not support amendments 24 and 42.
I welcome the Deputy First Minister’s comments and the support that has been forthcoming from the Scottish Government. I am grateful that the Government has both listened to and acted on the representations that it has received on health and safety.
Amendment 17 agreed to.
We move to group 7, which is on reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Amendment 18, in the name of Claudia Beamish, is grouped with amendments 21, 22, 26 and 27.
My amendments 18, 21, 22, 26 and 27 all address climate change in the procurement process. The policy aim behind the amendments is to ensure that the greenhouse gas emissions that are associated with goods and services that are being procured are taken into account by the contracting authority when deciding who will be granted the contract.
At stage 2 I lodged amendments that were intended to place a climate change duty on contracting authorities, which would have required them to receive from the economic operator a statement setting out the climate change impact of any contract of greater or equal value to £4 million. The contracting authority would have also had to include in its award notice a statement on the climate change impact.
However, I have decided not to lodge such specific amendments again at stage 3, and have instead gone for a more light-touch set of amendments that still emphasise the importance of greenhouse gas emissions in the procurement process but in a way that will be more manageable for contracting authorities and operators. I see that as an initial step on which to build in the future.
One of the most evident ways in which greenhouse gas emissions can be reduced in the procurement process is by addressing transportation of goods. I recently met a group of medical students from the University of Edinburgh who have researched the possibility of sourcing hospital food more locally, and I am well convinced by their arguments.
Currently, some of the food that is provided in the Royal infirmary of Edinburgh is sourced from Trowbridge in the south of England. That process produces many unnecessary greenhouse gas emissions through fuel use and freezer storage. Sourcing more food from Scotland would not only have a positive impact on carbon emissions but would result in fresher local food for patients. Surely the NHS and other public bodies could look at that.
My amendments seek to add to the duties in the bill; I have tried to keep them as simple as possible. Section 11 requires contracting authorities that expect to have significant procurement expenditure to produce a procurement strategy, which I agree is sensible. Amendment 18 would ensure that the statement that the contracting authority is required to produce should include how its procurements can reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Given that the provisions as they stand will require the statement to address community benefit and—following stage 2—fair trade, I believe that it would be an appropriate place in which to incorporate climate change obligations.
Amendment 21 seeks to amend section 14, which requires the contracting authority to produce annual procurement reports that relate to its strategy. Again, I see no reason why climate change cannot be included in those reports, as would be consistent with my intention for climate change to be addressed in the strategy.
Amendments 22, 26 and 27 are consequential amendments that relate to amendments 18 and 21.
I am aware that, so far, the Scottish Government does not agree with my intentions on including climate change provisions. It has argued that the 2009 act already covers those issues, which would perhaps render my amendments a needless duplication. However, I believe that my amendments would highlight the importance of greenhouse gas emissions in the procurement process itself, and reinforce the provisions in the 2009 act in which procurement is not specifically addressed.
I recognise the challenges that public bodies such as the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities would face in implementing such a requirement. However, the amendments have been rethought and are drafted to enable relevant regulation to be implemented in a simple and time-sensitive way. Carbon assessment tools are available and are already in effective use, and the regulations could be revised as necessary.
I hope that members, and the cabinet secretary, will agree that if we are to achieve our climate change targets, greenhouse gas emissions must be addressed in other legislation where applicable, and not just in the 2009 act. We must underline the cross-party commitment to addressing that most pressing global challenge by including it in the bill. I hope the cabinet secretary will consider the amendments again today.
I move amendment 18.
The purpose of amendments 18, 21, 22, 26 and 27 is to require public bodies to provide a statement on their approach to using procurement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in their procurement strategy, and to require detailed reporting on the emissions that are produced and how those have been calculated.
I stressed at stage 2—Claudia Beamish covered some of this territory just now—that climate change duties already exist under the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009. Specifically, the 2009 act provides ministers with a power to make provision
“requiring relevant public bodies to prepare reports on compliance with climate change duties”
and states that any such report
“must, in particular, contain information relating to how procurement policies of relevant public bodies and procurement activity by relevant public bodies, have contributed to compliance with climate change duties”.
The recently established public sector climate leaders forum, on which Claudia Beamish sits as an observer, is currently looking at the issue of standardised reporting with regard to the public bodies duties in the 2009 act.
Claudia Beamish attributed to me the term “needless duplication” in relation to her amendments. I say as politely as possible, as I do not doubt the intention behind the amendments, that it is the appropriate description.
16:00As we developed the bill, the strong view that was being expressed, especially by local government stakeholders, was that existing legislation on climate change and the environment already establishes significant duties—I have read out the terms of those duties—and that to impose additional duties would not necessarily add to what is in other legislation.
Of course, the bill specifically covers the environment through the general duty on sustainability, and in doing so will leave public bodies with an important degree of flexibility that will allow them to take a pragmatic and meaningful approach to dealing with environmental issues in their procurement activity.
Given those comments, and given in particular my quotations from the 2009 act, I ask Claudia Beamish to reflect on the fact that if we were to agree to her amendments we would be legislating for needless duplication, so I ask her to seek to withdraw amendment 18 and not to move amendments 21, 22, 26 and 27.
I have listened with care to what the cabinet secretary has said, but I am still minded to press my amendments, which I have tried to make as light touch as possible. As the cabinet secretary said, there are duties in the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009, and I understand that delicacy is required in moving forward collectively with COSLA and other public bodies, but I want to see the requirement in the bill. It is a very important aspect that would send a clear message and would enable us to continue to be leaders in the climate change field. The tools will be developed and become more sophisticated as time goes on, so it is important that I press my amendments.
The question is, that amendment 18 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 18 disagreed to.
Amendment 19 moved—[Jackie Baillie].
The question is, that amendment 19 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 43, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 19 disagreed to.
Amendment 37 moved—[Claudia Beamish].
The question is, that amendment 37 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 103, Against 12, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 37 agreed to.
Amendment 7 moved—[Nicola Sturgeon]—and agreed to.
Section 14—Annual procurement reports
Amendment 20 moved—[Nicola Sturgeon]—and agreed to.
Amendment 21 moved—[Claudia Beamish].
The question is, that amendment 21 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 21 disagreed to.
Amendment 3 moved—[Mark Griffin].
The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 43, Against 76, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 3 disagreed to.
Section 16—Guidance
Amendment 22 moved—[Claudia Beamish].
The question is, that amendment 22 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 45, Against 74, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 22 disagreed to.
After section 16
We move on to group 8. Amendment 38, in the name of Jackie Baillie, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 38 proves, if anything, that persistence pays off. I will explain. At stage 2, I lodged an amendment that called for an annual report so that we could measure activity throughout the public sector, and so that Parliament could consider the overall success of our approach and understand and tackle any shortcomings.
As the public sector spends £10 billion each year on procurement, it is right for us to have the highest standards of accountability and transparency. Amendment 38 will mean that rather than having to chase down reports from every public sector body, the information will be brought together in one report, which will paint a picture of Scotland as a whole.
There are precedents for the approach, which transcend political parties and Governments and which have occurred in every session of Parliament. At stage 2, I drew attention to amendments by Peter Peacock and Liam McArthur that called for annual reports. While they have been in the Government, Roseanna Cunningham and Paul Wheelhouse have lodged amendments on annual reports. Therefore, an amendment calling for an annual report is nothing unusual. Although the cabinet secretary declined the advances at stage 2, I am pleased that she has agreed with the proposition and that amendment 38 has Government approval. Let us be honest: this does not happen often, so I am extremely tempted to rush to the vote before the cabinet secretary changes her mind.
I should say that our colleagues in COSLA did not wish additional reporting burdens to be put in place and that a proportionate approach has been arrived at to capture the information that is required. I am grateful to the Government for securing that, and to COSLA and local authorities for their support.
When I lodged amendment 38, some civil servants had visions of masses of reports from every public sector body landing on their desks. Indeed, members of the bill team threatened the head of the procurement policy branch—one Iain Moore—with exactly that. On that basis, I am sure that the cabinet secretary will agree that we should henceforth call amendment 38 the Iain Moore amendment. That said, I hope that he is getting a bigger desk to receive all the reports.
I move amendment 38.
I want to consider briefly proposed subsection (3) in amendment 38, under which the Government will have to consider what it thinks will be appropriate for inclusion in the annual report, which might mean problems for small contractors. I want to discuss briefly the effectiveness of the policy and the mechanisms for enforcement. I guess that I might be wearing my hat as convener of the cross-party group in the Scottish Parliament on construction. I want to reflect the concerns that small engineering contractors—they will be shared by all small contractors—have about the mechanisms in the bill to deal with situations in which public procurement is not handled properly. They believe that the reality is that small businesses will not take procurers to court, and that an ombudsman would be an appropriate way forward.
I have had discussions with the Government on that. The cabinet secretary is well aware of the issue and has given me a response that I understand and accept. I think that there will be an opportunity in the future to address the issue, so I will not press her to do so now. However, if annual reports are to be made, there is an opportunity to consider the issue as part of the process of seeing how the bill beds in, so that we can perhaps get to the right answer a bit more quickly.
Earlier, Jackie Baillie said that I am taking an entirely consensual approach to the bill this afternoon. Amendment 38 is the second of Jackie Baillie’s amendments that I am going to vote for, so in case any of my colleagues are wondering whether I have taken leave of my senses, I say that there is method in my madness: I have detected that it annoys Jackie Baillie more when I remove her ability to engage in unjustified rants against the Government, which is why I have decided to be so consensual. [Laughter.]
Seriously, though, I made clear at stage 2 that I agree that effective reporting on procurement performance is extremely important. It is only by reporting effectively that we will know whether our expectations and the obligations in the bill are being properly met. The reason why I declined Jackie Baillie’s advances at stage 2 was that her amendment was, not to put too fine a point on it, badly drafted, and I thought that we could draft it in a slightly better way to make it more consistent with our aims and objectives.
I therefore offered to work with her prior to stage 3 and am pleased that, as a result, I am able to support amendment 38, which will result in the publication of annual reports in a manner that recognises and respects the ethos of the broader procurement reform agenda of working in partnership across all sectors. Time will tell whether it delivers more work for Iain Moore in the procurement division.
As he said, Nigel Don has taken great care to raise his issues of concern. There have been discussions between him and my officials about how we can address those issues as we move forward with the procurement reform agenda. I am happy that those discussions continue, and that we seek to involve him in them, as we develop our thinking on an ombudsman and the points that he raised.
With those comments, I am happy to support amendment 38.
16:15
I press amendment 38.
I reject the notion that my stage 2 amendment was badly drafted. We have superb Parliament staff who draft competent amendments. We should have moved on from that excuse a long time ago.
At the risk of misquoting the Deputy First Minister, I say that she has not been “entirely consensual” about the bill. However, I welcome the new-found consensus at which she has arrived with me. I would also welcome support for all the other amendments to which I draw her attention, but she seems to be unwilling to move on them.
I say in passing to the Deputy First Minister that my husband has always said that he found it preferable to agree with me rather than to disagree. I encourage her to do likewise.
Amendment 38 agreed to.
Section 18—Publication of contract notices and award notices
Amendment 39 moved—[Claudia Beamish].
The question is, that amendment 39 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 74, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 39 disagreed to.
Section 20—Community benefit requirements in major contracts
We move on to group 9. Amendment 41, in the name of Mary Fee, is grouped with amendment 23.
As my amendment is fairly straightforward, I will be brief.
If the aim of the Procurement Reform (Scotland) Bill is to reform procurement and increase the economic, social and environmental wellbeing of communities, let us get behind that principle and reduce the community benefit threshold from £4 million to £2 million. That would greatly improve the opportunity to bring benefits to all our communities through economic, social and environmental action and would maximise the benefit that we could provide not only to communities but to individuals throughout Scotland.
Amendment 23, in the name of Jackie Baillie, would require data to be collected to demonstrate what benefits are being achieved as a result of a contract including a community benefit requirement and would allow those benefits to be assessed and monitored. We need clarity, transparency and accountability in procurement, and Jackie Baillie’s amendment would assist in that.
I move amendment 41.
There are, undoubtedly, some excellent community benefit policies and practices and we are learning all the time. I hope that the Procurement Reform (Scotland) Bill spreads that good practice more widely and that we become increasingly better at securing positive outcomes.
I was given a recent example of positive community benefit policies in relation to the Commonwealth games, but I was also told that we do not know the extent to which the organisations that are contracting for the games are improving, for example, women’s chances in industries in which they are currently underrepresented, because we are not collecting the data that would help to make that assessment.
We know that there is a difficulty in getting workplace data, whether from the Commonwealth games or from arm’s-length organisations. If we are to be able to judge whether community benefit clauses are truly effective, and to learn for the future, we absolutely need, as a baseline requirement, to collect appropriate data. It is a bit of a no-brainer.
At stage 1, the cabinet secretary appeared to support the approach that I had suggested. At stage 2, she was at pains to say that she and I were in agreement about the need for good-quality data collection and that the difference was in how we thought we should achieve that. She referred to blanket approaches to community benefit clauses being unhelpful in capturing the nuance and diversity of the data. However, I have to say—and I say this genuinely—that I think that she misunderstands the purpose of my amendment. The amendment sets out a requirement to collect data. It does not say exactly what data to collect or how to do so. That would be a matter of detail, which is properly for ministers, and properly for guidance. I even went so far as to give a power for ministers to set out in guidance how that should be done, so that the Government can collect data in a way that captures the nuance and the diversity in contracts.
There is no rational reason for resisting the amendment. The amendment is entirely motivated by a desire to understand and learn from our experience. It cannot be right that we should have community benefit clauses but do not measure them in a way that allows proper scrutiny and analysis.
I urge the cabinet secretary to change her mind and to support the amendment. I hope that, by supporting amendment 23, she will again demonstrate that, where we agree, she is willing to make progress.
Amendment 41 seeks to reduce the threshold for contracts for which contracting authorities must consider imposing community benefit requirements. As has been explained previously, the rationale behind the current threshold of £4 million is that that is the same level at which public works contracts are covered by the EU public procurement directive. The level is widely recognised and it seemed to be a fairly simple and straightforward approach. It is also important to point out that the threshold was subject to consultation, with the majority of respondents supporting the threshold that is set out in the bill.
That said, I have said repeatedly during the course of the bill that I am not wedded to the threshold and intend to keep it under review. It is worth reminding members that section 20 enables the threshold to be amended by order if, after review, that is considered appropriate.
However, any change to the threshold should follow such a review; it should not be made arbitrarily at this stage. Regardless of whether we agree with the threshold being at £4 million, there is a rationale for setting it at that level. There is no similar, easily understandable reason for setting the threshold at £2 million, other than the fact that it is half of the current figure.
As I said, the threshold will be kept under review and if, after due review, it is considered that it would be appropriate to change the threshold, we will use the powers that are already in the bill to do that by order.
Whatever figure the threshold is set at, we are emphatically not saying that only contracts above that value should be considered for community benefit clauses. That is the threshold at which the duty applies, but that does not mean that if public bodies are procuring below that threshold, they are not expected to have regard to community benefits. They absolutely are. Of course, we are already having significant success on community benefits in our major public contracts.
That is why we should take time to review the threshold and make changes if they are seen to be required. We should not arbitrarily make them at this stage.
On amendment 23, I recognise the importance of capturing reliable data on the achievement of community benefits, but I believe that the issue is addressed through other provisions in the bill. As I have no doubt that Jackie Baillie remembers, section 14(2) was amended at stage 2, so that annual reports will now include a summary of the community benefits that were fulfilled over the year. In addition to that, contract award notices for higher-value contracts will have to include a statement of what the authority believes the contract will deliver.
I would argue that Jackie Baillie’s amendment is unnecessary, given other provisions in the bill. With the greatest of respect, I believe that that is an extremely rational reason for saying that we should not agree to the amendment that she proposes.
Against that background, I ask Mary Fee to withdraw amendment 41 and Jackie Baillie not to move amendment 23. If the amendments are pressed to a vote, I ask the chamber not to support them.
I have listened carefully to the Deputy First Minister’s comments. While I am pleased to hear her say that there is a commitment in Government to review the threshold that would be required for community benefit—[Interruption.] It would be beneficial if the Deputy First Minister could listen to my summing-up, as I had the courtesy to listen when she was speaking.
I look forward to the review that the Deputy First Minister has said that she is committed to having. Perhaps eventually the threshold for community benefit will be reduced. However, it is perhaps unfortunate that the review was not timed to finish before the bill went through Parliament, so that the bill could have done something about the threshold, to bring benefits to our communities.
Surely Mary Fee would accept that one cannot have a review of a bill before the bill becomes legislation. The review must follow Parliament enacting the legislation.
I absolutely accept that point. However, there is an acceptance that some stakeholders support the figure of £4 million and some do not and the Deputy First Minister is keeping that under review—
Will the member take an intervention?
No. I am sorry.
I am quite sure that this is not an issue that has just suddenly arisen during the consultation.
Will the member take an intervention?
No. I am sorry.
I am sure that the Government will have been aware of the issues around procurement and community benefit.
Will the member take a brief intervention?
No, sorry. I want to move on.
It does seem that the Government picks and chooses which EU regulations it decides to abide by and which not to abide by. We need a bit of consistency in the approach that we take to EU regulations. I am disappointed in the approach taken and I will be pressing my amendment.
As Jackie Baillie said, her amendment is a bit of a no-brainer. It is a sound amendment. We need to be able to assess the benefits to know that we are doing the right thing.
While I accept the words that the Deputy First Minister has offered, I am not entirely convinced that we will get the outcome and the benefits that we need.
Unusually, I call Nicola Sturgeon and I will, of course, revert to Mary Fee after that.
There are two points worth making, just for clarity. First, I point out to Mary Fee that this has nothing to do with EU regulations. We have simply set the threshold at the same level as that for public works contracts. It is not an issue of compliance with EU regulations.
The other point is on this issue about a review. We have a review of legislation after the legislation is enacted and is in force. Mary Fee said that we should have considered these issues during the passage of the legislation. We had a consultation in advance of introducing the bill. That is the normal way in which these things are done. We specifically asked the question whether respondents thought that the threshold was set at the right level and a clear majority of respondents said, “Yes we think that it’s set at the right level.” So, this idea that we somehow did not go through due process simply does not withstand scrutiny.
My point is that we have set a threshold and we have based it on a clear rationale, but we have built into the legislation the ability to review it against experience and change it by subordinate legislation if that seems appropriate. Surely that is a better and far more orderly way of proceeding than simply to pluck a new figure out of thin air that has not been consulted on and stick it into the legislation today.
I give the final word to Mary Fee.
I struggle to understand—[Interruption.]
Order!
I struggle to understand the logic behind the Deputy First Minister’s response. She said that the threshold was in accordance with guidelines set by the EU. Then she said that it had nothing to do with the EU—
No I did not.
Yes, you did. The confusion is not helpful.
Will the member give way?
No, I am sorry. The threshold is either in line with EU guidance or it is not. Perhaps this demonstrates where we are with procurement. It is some kind of grey area and there is little clarity around.
16:30
I take it that you wish to press amendment 41.
I do.
The question is, that amendment 41 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 41 disagreed to.
Amendment 23 moved—[Jackie Baillie].
The question is, that amendment 23 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 71, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 23 disagreed to.
After section 21
Amendment 24 moved—[Jackie Baillie].
The question is, that amendment 24 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 73, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 24 disagreed to.
Amendment 42 moved—[Ken Macintosh].
The question is, that amendment 42 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
To thunderous applause, the result of the division is: For 45, Against 73, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 42 disagreed to.
Before section 22
Group 10 is on selection of tenderers. Amendment 1, in the name of Jayne Baxter, is grouped with amendments 4, 5, 25 and 8.
As has become increasingly clear over the weeks since stage 2, there is widespread public concern about and condemnation of zero-hours contracts when they are imposed on employees with no guarantee of a minimum number of hours of work and when the employees are restricted by their contracts from seeking other work with which to supplement their incomes.
Recently published research by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service highlights the findings that employees who are on zero-hours contracts are too afraid to search for new jobs and feel excluded from the sense of security that other full-time workers enjoy. Members will be aware that, for many workers, zero-hours contracts often mean people working to earn their poverty and, despite technically being employed, being forced to use food banks just to get by.
There are some limited circumstances in which zero-hours contracts suit both the employer and the employee, and my amendment seeks to make allowances for such mutually agreeable circumstances. In the main, however, it is important that appropriate provisions are made to ensure that those exploitative employers who wrongly force employees into zero-hours contracts are prevented from bidding for public sector contracts.
When I moved the amendment at stage 2, I was disappointed that it was not supported by colleagues across the chamber. At that time, the cabinet secretary indicated that the Scottish Government will deal with the matter through workforce-related guidance, but in my view that does not go far enough. I am keen to see the amendment included in the bill.
I move amendment 1.
I begin with amendment 4. The Scottish Government, public and local authorities, health authorities and so on tender a huge number of public contracts. Therefore, surely it is right that all the companies that win public contracts should pay their fair share of tax—the very tax that pays for the public contracts that they benefit from.
The organisation Ethical Consumer recently carried out UK-wide research to evaluate the behaviour of 20 major companies that are beneficiaries of public authority contracts. It reported that 14 of those companies, many of which have been recipients of public contracts in Scotland, were involved in avoiding tax. That cannot be right. As a Parliament that is considering procurement, it is surely correct that we legislate where we can, using the powers that we have to develop policy that excludes those companies that we know are involved in tax avoidance.
A similar point was made in an early-day motion at Westminster, which was lodged in the light of the Ethical Consumer report. The motion called on the UK Government
“to bring forward a set of legally binding procurement rules that subject companies delivering and bidding for the delivery of public service contracts to high ethical, environmental and anti-tax avoidance standards”.
That seems an entirely legitimate aspiration.
It is not just me who agrees with the sentiment of that motion. The SNP at Westminster, no less, also believes that that is a worthy aspiration. In fact, Angus Robertson, the SNP leader at Westminster, and his colleague Mike Weir both signed the motion. Indeed, Mike Weir was a co-sponsor. I ask the Scottish ministers whether they are in agreement with their Westminster colleagues and ready to legislate when they have the power to do so, or whether the SNP says and does one thing at Westminster, where it has no power, and does something completely different here, where it has the power to deal with such matters.
I declare an interest in amendment 5 as a member of Unite the Union. I pay tribute to the outstanding work that has been done on blacklisting by the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster, under the excellent chairmanship of Ian Davidson MP. I am sure that the cabinet secretary will want to pay tribute to Mr Davidson’s stewardship of that committee and the work that he has done. The committee’s work has exposed the activity of some of the biggest names that are operating in the UK and Scottish construction industry.
Companies such as McAlpine, Kier, Skanska, Balfour Beatty, Amey, the Forth crossing bridge constructors joint venture and many, many more all bought into and were up to their necks in a conspiracy against workers whose only crime was to stand up for their workmates by raising concerns about health and safety, site conditions, washing and toilet facilities or wages and rights at work. Those companies created, funded and sustained an illegal list of those whom they saw as undesirables. People were banned from working on construction projects because they were—or were alleged to be—trade union, political or environmental activists. Many were victimised for the most spurious of reasons.
That was victimisation and it was McCarthyism, but it is not over yet. Blacklisting was and still is a major human rights abuse, and no one has yet been held to account for their actions. Since such activity was first exposed, I have worked closely with colleagues on the Scottish Affairs Committee and with the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, the GMB and Unite to raise the profile of the issue in the Parliament and across Scotland. I welcome members of those unions to the gallery. It is their campaign that has moved the Government to take some limited action in the bill, and I commend them for it.
We have come a long way since the issue was first raised in the Parliament. I regret the fact that the cabinet secretary’s offer to meet me earlier in the process was withdrawn; I do not know why that happened, but that was, of course, her prerogative. However, I feel that although the Government has gone some way on the issue, it could go further still by accepting amendment 5. That would make it crystal clear to employers what was expected and what would happen if they had blacklisted workers and they wanted to secure public sector contracts in the future.
Amendment 5 would mean that such companies would have nowhere to hide. They would have to own up to what they had done, apologise to the victims and pay adequate compensation that would be negotiated by the victims’ representatives. If they failed to do so, no contracts would be awarded to them. Amendment 5 provides an opportunity for the companies concerned to clean themselves up. If they failed to do so, they would, in effect, be blacklisting themselves.
Siobhan Reardon, who is the programme director at Amnesty International Scotland, says:
“The right to form and join trade unions is a fundamental human right ... To discriminate against someone on that basis, including the use of blacklisting, is a violation of that human right. As the Bill stands, it does not go far enough”.
I agree with her.
Four hundred Scots were on the Consulting Association’s blacklist. I believe that to be the tip of a very large iceberg. We will never know the true extent of the scandal, but I want to pay tribute to the real heroes of this story, who are not politicians or trade union leaders but the ordinary electricians, joiners, steel erectors and scaffolders who, in upholding health and safety standards and the principles and values of trade unionism of looking out for their fellow workers, were victimised and, as a result, had their livelihoods taken from them. They refused to be beaten, and I hope that, as a result of their actions and the actions of their trade unions, the construction industry of the future will be better than the industry of the past.
The amendments in this group are extremely important, because they deal with practices that I hope all members will agree are totally unacceptable: tax avoidance, blacklisting and the inappropriate use of zero-hours contracts.
Sections 22 and 23 of the bill allow the Government to make regulations that specify the circumstances in which economic operators should be excluded from competition for public sector contracts. I have already made it clear that we intend to make regulations regarding blacklisting, and when the Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill becomes law, we will consider what the regulations can do to maximise our actions to eliminate tax avoidance. In addition, we will consider how the guidance on workforce matters for which the bill legislates can help us to address the issue of zero-hours contracts. The Government agrees with many of the comments that have been made by Opposition members on those three matters, and we stand firm in our determination to tackle them.
Amendment 25 in my name seeks to strengthen the bill’s provisions on tax avoidance. It makes it clear that the regulations will address instances in which there has been a failure in relation to any matter of tax compliance, whether that is a failure to submit a tax return or a failure to pay tax on time, and not just a failure to pay tax generally. I think that amendment 25 is preferable to Neil Findlay’s amendment 4, although I make it absolutely clear that the objectives behind those two amendments are the same. The Scottish Government will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that tax avoidance will not succeed in Scotland. We have made our position consistently clear over a prolonged period of time, and we will continue to do so.
16:45The Government has been equally clear that it is totally opposed to the practice of blacklisting. I hope that Neil Findlay will acknowledge the work that the Government has done, and will continue to do, with the trade unions on that matter. I welcome trade union members to the gallery and pay tribute to those workers in many parts of the country and in many different sectors who were victims of the practice of blacklisting but have worked bravely to bring the practice to light and to help us all resolve to address the issue for the future.
I do not support amendment 5, not for a principled reason—I ask Neil Findlay to reflect carefully on that—but for a practical reason. We need flexibility in the legislation to ensure that we can respond quickly if there are changes to legislation in reserved areas—changes that I very much hope we will see. For example, in the context of blacklisting, some trade unions have argued that the Employment Relations Act 1999 (Blacklists) Regulations 2010, commonly referred to as the blacklisting regulations, need to be strengthened. If that happened—and we are advocates of that happening—we would need to adapt our approach quickly to bring it into line. That is why proceeding on the basis of strong, robust regulations that give us that flexibility is preferable to the route that Neil Findlay proposes.
I do not see why accepting my amendment precludes a change in the guidance whenever one is needed.
Depending on the nature of the change that was made to other legislation, Mr Findlay’s amendment could also require us to change primary legislation and, as all members are aware, that takes more time. The Government’s amendments fulfil the objective, and I tell Neil Findlay in all sincerity that there is not a single shred of difference between us in our abhorrence of blacklisting and our determination to do everything that we can to tackle it. I want to do it in a way that is effective and to ensure that we are able to respond to changes that we are not in control of, so that at any given time our legislation here in Scotland is as robust as it possibly can be. I ask him to reflect on those comments in the spirit in which they are offered to him. We will continue to work with Mr Findlay, with other members and with trade unions to ensure that we are responding as quickly and effectively as possible.
I turn to amendment 1, in the name of Jayne Baxter, on zero-hours contracts. The Government has made clear our opposition to the inappropriate use of zero-hours contracts and I have no issue at all with the sentiment behind amendment 1. However, the drafting of amendment 1 raises a serious and fundamental question about the practical workability of the amendment. It is simply not realistic to ask a purchaser, as amendment 1 would do, to monitor, for every contract, whether a bidder employs staff on zero-hours contracts and to assess whether they signed up to such contracts willingly and whether they did so following legal or trade union advice. It would place burdens on purchasers that they could not reasonably be expected to discharge, and that would not make for good legislation.
That is why the approach that I propose—to use the guidance on workforce matters that is provided for by section 24 of the bill and to look at what we can do through procurement to tackle the inappropriate use of zero-hours contracts, in addition to our other steps in that area—is much better. As I have said, in all areas where we refer to guidance I am happy to continue to work with members and with the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee to ensure that we get that right.
I hope that there will be an understanding and appreciation across the chamber that what we are talking about in relation to this group of amendments is not in any way a dispute on the principles of tax avoidance, blacklisting or the inappropriate use of zero-hours contracts. My proposal is that we tackle those issues in a way that gives us flexibility and allows us to ensure that our provisions are as effective as possible, and I believe that amendments 25 and 8, in my name, do that; I ask members to support those amendments over amendments 1, 4 and 5, which do not fulfil the same purpose as effectively.
I support Neil Findlay’s amendment on blacklisting, but I acknowledge the sentiment and the position expressed by the Deputy First Minister.
I seek clarification on amendment 1, in the name of Jayne Baxter, on zero-hours contracts. I totally accept the reasoned way in which she expressed her case, which is fundamentally about ending exploitation of working men and women, but I am slightly puzzled by the contrast between subsections (2) and (3) in amendment 1, in relation to how subsection (6) would work in practice. Can she shed any light as to the point that subsection (6) makes? In effect, it gives an opt-out in relation to zero-hours contracts covering
“legal advice”,
“the advice of a trade union”
or indeed where
“an employee agrees to accept a contract that fails to specify guaranteed working hours.”
It would be enormously helpful if Jayne Baxter could explain that to enable us to understand the purpose of her amendment 1.
I listened to the cabinet secretary’s response with interest and am pleased that she agrees that the amendments in the group are important, but I am very disappointed that she indicated that the Scottish Government will not support amendment 1. I am not convinced that practicability is a barrier to taking forward my proposal on zero-hours contracts. Inclusion in guidance is to be welcomed, but it does not go far enough. I still wish to see my amendment included in the bill.
Similarly, I am disappointed that the Scottish Government will not accept my colleague Neil Findlay’s amendments 4 and 5.
I believe that the Parliament has a clear responsibility to send out to employers a message that restrictive, unwieldy and unfair zero-hours contracts are not acceptable and that public money should not be used to support them.
I am grateful to Tavish Scott for asking such a complicated question shortly before I was due to respond. For the purposes of information, subsection (6) in my amendment 1 states:
“A contract is not, for the purposes of this section, a zero hours contract if, after being giving the opportunity to seek—
(a) legal advice, or
(b) the advice of a trade union or other elected representative of employees,
an employee agrees to accept a contract that fails to specify guaranteed working hours.”
I suppose that it is about at least ensuring that, if an employee makes that decision, it is an informed decision that is based on accurate information and good advice.
Having said that, I press amendment 1.
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 39, Against 78, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 1 disagreed to.
Amendment 4 moved—[Neil Findlay].
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 4 disagreed to.
Amendment 5 moved—[Neil Findlay].
The question is, that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 74, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 5 disagreed to.
Section 23—Selection of tenderers
Amendment 25 moved—[Nicola Sturgeon]—and agreed to.
Section 24—Guidance on selection of tenderers
Amendments 8 and 9 moved—[Nicola Sturgeon]—and agreed to.
Amendment 43 moved—[Ken Macintosh].
The question is, that amendment 43 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 105, Against 12, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 43 agreed to.
Amendment 10 moved—[Nicola Sturgeon]—and agreed to.
Section 36—General interpretation
Amendments 26 and 27 not moved.
We move to group 11. Amendment 44, in the name of Patrick Harvie, is the only amendment in the group.
The bill describes the sustainability duty and the community benefit requirements as being to
“improve the economic, social, and environmental wellbeing of the authority’s area”.
The bill describes that area as
“the area by reference to which the contracting authority primarily exercises its functions, disregarding any areas outside Scotland.”
My amendment 44 would remove the words
“disregarding any areas outside Scotland.”
It is intended to remove ambiguity about the permissibility of ethical and fair trade procurement practices. The Scottish Fair Trade Forum and Amnesty International have highlighted how the definition in the bill could be a barrier to considering the global impacts of purchasing decisions.
I am aware that some changes were made to the bill at stage 2, and the Scottish Fair Trade Forum has welcomed the inclusion of a statement of a public authority’s general policy on fairly and ethically traded goods. I, too, welcome that, but a statement of policy is not necessarily the same as a clear commitment to action. The forum says that the bill’s
“wording may cause confusion about what it is possible to procure and could unintentionally reduce the procurement of ethical and Fair Trade goods.”
17:00I will give a few examples. In its evidence to the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee, the British Medical Association Scotland highlighted the estimated 10 million surgical instruments used in the UK each year that are manufactured in northern Pakistan. It said that most of the 50,000 manual labourers in that industry are paid less than a dollar a day for 12 hours of work, there is little job security, there are serious health and safety risks, and the approach contributes to the proliferation of child labour.
Other examples include the sexual and physical harassment of workers, people being expected to work for over 80 hours a week, illegal working hours and a ban on unionisation. That indicates that some of the issues that Neil Findlay sought to raise in his amendment at a domestic level are also global issues that we should seek to address.
Obviously, procuring or contracting authorities may not have access to all the relevant information about global impacts when they make a decision, but, as far as I can see, the bill prohibits them from taking any such information into account by using the phrase,
“disregarding any areas outside Scotland.”
My amendment simply seeks to allow those decisions to be fully informed by the information about global impacts that is available at the time when they are being made.
I move amendment 44.
I thank Patrick Harvie for lodging amendment 44, and I absolutely agree with him on the importance of recognising and understanding the global impact of procurement. He was right to point to the fact that we made changes at stage 2 specifically in relation to fair trade. I would be very happy to speak further with the Scottish Fair Trade Forum about any concerns that it has. It is clear that we were anxious to respond to the issues that it raised in an appropriate way, and I think that we have done that with some of the changes that we have made.
The point that the BMA made, which Patrick Harvie referred to, is a good illustration of the general point that he is trying to make. There is nothing in the bill, as it currently stands, that prevents public bodies from acting in a manner to secure improvements in economic, social and environmental wellbeing wherever they may arise. At stage 2, I made the point that, specifically, the bill as it stands does not prevent an authority from taking account of wider global or international issues if it considers that to be appropriate. However, section 9 places a duty on public bodies, and it is right that we ensure that that duty strikes the right balance—a balance that is both proportionate and manageable in a meaningful way at a practical level. That is what section 9, as currently drafted, seeks to do.
My concern about Patrick Harvie’s amendment is that the scope is so wide. For example, it could lead to challenges against a public body that it failed to consider a perceived benefit that might accrue from literally anywhere in the world. Placing a duty on public authorities with a scope as wide as that would make it very difficult for them to discharge their duties in a way in which they could be reasonably confident did not open them up to legal challenge.
That is not to say that I do not think that we have an obligation to address the issues that Patrick Harvie has talked about. I repeat the offer that I made to him at stage 2 to discuss how we can use the statutory guidance that will underpin the sustainable procurement duty to try to encapsulate the perfectly legitimate points that he has made about the wider implications of procurement exercises. That is particularly relevant when we are talking about large procurement exercises. I hope that he will take up that offer.
Patrick Harvie has made legitimate points, but the translation of his argument into the specific amendment that he has lodged would result in legislation that was drafted so widely that it would hinder rather than help public authorities. I think that there is a more effective way in which we can try to deliver the ends that he has rightly talked about.
I have a late bid to speak from Mark Griffin, who should be very brief, please.
I apologise for being slow at pressing my button, Presiding Officer.
As Patrick Harvie mentioned, amendment 44 would remove the words
“disregarding any areas outside Scotland”
from the definition of a contracting authority’s area. We will not support the amendment, as we feel that it would be too vague to implement in practice and would make the scope of a contracting authority’s area too uncertain. We agree with the principles and have lodged amendments around global sustainability and taking into account the environment, fair trade and other issues, but, as I said, the amendment is not a practical step. It is a burden too far for local authorities.
As the Deputy First Minister has no comments to make, I call Patrick Harvie to wind up and press or withdraw his amendment.
I am sorry that the Government and the Labour Party do not seem to be open to the argument. The central part of the Deputy First Minister’s argument against amendment 44 is that it would be very difficult to take account of impacts anywhere in the world, but we need to do that if we are to have a global approach to sustainability. That is the intention of the amendment, which the Deputy First Minister seems to agree with. The practical reality is that that would be difficult and challenging, but that is the task at hand. Either we need to set that challenge to ourselves and public bodies, or we do not.
I will press the amendment. However, assuming that the Government’s support continues to be robust, I would be happy to have a discussion with the Deputy First Minister after the bill has passed to see whether approaches can be taken.
The question is, that amendment 44 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 8, Against 109, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 44 disagreed to.
Schedule—Contracting authorities
Group 12, on contracting authorities, is the final group. If members are brief, we may be able to keep to the indicated timings. Amendment 28, in the name of Tavish Scott, is grouped with amendment 29.
I thank James Kelly for giving the issue an airing at stage 2 and for lodging amendment 29. Amendment 28 would ensure that the procurement provisions that we agree today cover the spending of £1 billion of taxpayers’ money.
The Government created the Scottish Futures Trust, which in turn created a financial model known as the hubco model, which builds schools and hospitals. Hubcos are managed and led by large private sector businesses—businesses that make profit and charge management fees for building a school or a health centre. However, it does not appear that the taxpayer, the Parliament or Audit Scotland know how much profit they make or what fee is levied. I suggest that that financial secrecy needs to be replaced by the financial transparency that the Deputy First Minister rightly described in her opening speech when she introduced the bill to Parliament.
Scotland’s five hubcos are led by 15 main corporate businesses. Under the model, small businesses in Scotland such as builders, conveyors, construction companies and architects can only hope to be a subcontractor or a subcontractor of a subcontractor. Therefore, by definition, hubcos exclude thousands of Scottish businesses from tendering for work.
That means that the Parliament and Audit Scotland do not know whether we achieve value for money. Under the hubco model that is never tested. For example, there was no tender to build the six schools in the north of Scotland by the Miller Group-led north Scotland hubco. There is a lack of financial transparency: there is a belief that economies of scale may deliver better value for money, but we simply do not know whether that is the case. How much profit will the Miller Group make on the building of those six schools? Parliament simply does not know. What management fee is the Miller Group receiving for the contract? Parliament does not know.
Hubcos are not financially accountable, despite the vast amount of public money that is spent across Scotland on projects that we would all wish to see happen. Will hubco businesses be subject to the policies on the living wage and community benefit that we have discussed in Parliament this afternoon? They surely should be.
Finally, I ask members to consider the views of the Federation of Small Businesses on hubcos. Just this week, Andy Willox of the FSB said:
“I’m astonished the Scottish Government is deliberately excluding so much tax-payer-funded buying from the scope of their reforms. We are urging MSPs to look again at the legislation and ask if it is really appropriate for us to turn a blind eye to the purchasing practices of arms-length bodies and HubCos.”
The FSB supports the bill, but it believes that the issues in that area need to be addressed. I hope that, given its fair observations about the importance of financial accountability, the Government will, even at this late stage, extend the provisions in the bill to cover that particular group of organisations.
I move amendment 28.
I support amendments 29 and 28. The bill’s premise is to promote good procurement practice covering £10 billion of public contracts. It therefore seems strange that it does not cover Scottish Water, which has a capital expenditure programme of £500 million and had revenue expenditure last year of £837 million. The Government’s loan obviously contributed to that capital expenditure, so there is public money flowing through Scottish Water. It is therefore right not only that there is accountability but that we can influence Scottish Water through the provisions in the bill.
The same should apply to the Scottish Futures Trust. Tavish Scott correctly pinpoints that the SFT oversees £1 billion of public expenditure, which would be a 10th again of the amount that the bill already covers. There are real issues with regard to accountability for how the money is spent and with some of the SFT’s claims in relation to savings.
Amendments 29 and 28 address a weakness in the bill. Not only are the bodies that I have mentioned not accountable for their expenditure, but all the other provisions that we are trying to introduce in the bill on issues such as blacklisting and zero-hours contracts are not covered. It is a real glitch that Scottish Water and the SFT hubcos are not included, and I urge members to support both amendments.
Alex Johnstone can come in very briefly.
I will try to be as brief as possible.
The failure to include the SFT hubcos and Scottish Water in the list of organisations in the schedule to the bill was a surprise to many. During the bill process from committee to stage 3 today, questions have been asked and re-asked about why they are not in the bill.
The matter was addressed to some extent in the Deputy First Minister’s letter to Maureen Watt, convener of the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee, in which she points out that Scottish Water will abide roughly by the rules that exist in the bill and that the SFT hubcos have agreed to do something similar. That raises the question of why those bodies are not included in the list of organisations that will be covered.
The question has been asked repeatedly and has never been answered to my satisfaction. For that reason, I will support amendments 28 and 29 today.
I think that it would be helpful for members in the chamber if I explain, as I have done at previous stages of the bill process, why hubcos and Scottish Water are not included in the bill’s ambit.
I seem to recall—I am sure that Tavish Scott will correct me if I am wrong—that the concept of hubcos was first developed by the previous Administration before being progressed by the current Administration. Hubcos are not public bodies but institutionalised private-public bodies, and their private partners are procured after open and competitive processes. Scottish Water is publicly owned but is subject to a very different regime under EU legislation.
The bill, the regulations and the guidance have and will be drafted to dovetail with EU public procurement rules. Indeed, the bill currently does that, as it would relate to Scottish Water, by excluding utilities contracts. That is consistent with the existing EU procurement law approach, in which such contracts are subject to a separate legal regime. Applying the bill to a body that is subject to a different EU law framework would create considerable complexity and some risk for all concerned, as it would require work with two very different EU legal regimes.
17:15That said, at stage 2 I undertook to write to the committee after further dialogue with the Scottish Futures Trust and Scottish Water, which I did on 6 May. The letter makes it clear that the SFT intends to work with hubcos, to encourage them to adopt the good practice in the bill where that is appropriate. Indeed, I should point out to the chamber that that is already happening in a number of areas—community benefit clauses being one example.
The cabinet secretary will be aware—from our correspondence on the point that Tavish Scott made about the involvement of smaller firms in constituencies that he, I and others in the Parliament represent—that the notion of Scottish Water using rural frameworks might be a way of getting round this problem. They have the transparency that both James Kelly and Tavish Scott referred to, would allow companies more of an involvement, and can have a multiplier effect on our local economies.
I am more than happy to discuss the issue about Scottish Water with Liam McArthur, if he would find that helpful. If I have understood his point correctly, I point out that nothing in the bill would prevent the use of framework contracts, so I am not sure that his point hangs together in that respect. If I have misunderstood him, I am more than happy to engage further with him.
I was pointing out, in relation to SFT and hubcos, that a number of areas covered by the bill are already in use: I would cite the example of community benefit clauses.
Scottish Water has provided an assurance that it supports the general principles of the bill and will continue to adhere to its key components. Again, I highlight that Scottish Water already adheres to many of the bill’s key components: it advertises via the public contracts Scotland website, it uses standard pre-qualification questionnaires, and it uses community benefit clauses in its major contracts. Those are all components of the bill that Scottish Water already adheres to, even though it is not part of the overall framework of the bill.
I ask Tavish Scott to withdraw amendment 28 and James Kelly not to move amendment 29, and I ask the chamber not to support either of those amendments.
I take the Deputy First Minister’s remarks in relation to some of the bill’s provisions, which do, as she has described, apply to some of these bodies. That is progress. However, it is interesting that the Deputy First Minister did not respond to the major concern that many of us have, which is financial accountability to this Parliament.
I would hate to repeat all the same points, but because of the structure of the hubcos—I take the Deputy First Minister’s point about when the structure was introduced, but this point is right whenever it was introduced—we do not know whether they can deliver value for money. When schools are put into the programme, we do not know whether we achieve value for money because there is not a tender at that stage. It seems to be in the Government’s interests to seek to have that, so that, if the hubco model is not achieving value for money, perhaps it should be considered again from first principles.
For many of the reasons that James Kelly, Alex Johnstone and others have expressed, there appears to be a fundamental point: that £1 billion of public spending should be covered by the bill, and we should support its inclusion.
Members will note that we have passed the agreed time limit for the debate on this group to finish. I exercise my power under rule 9.8.4A(c) to allow the debate on the group to continue beyond the time limit, in order to avoid the debate being unreasonably curtailed.
The question is, that amendment 28 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 56, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 28 disagreed to.
Amendment 29 moved—[James Kelly].
The question is, that amendment 29 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hilton, Cara (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP
The result of the division is: For 56, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 29 disagreed to.
That ends consideration of amendments.
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