Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Housing (Scotland) Bill. Members should have with them the bill as amended at stage 2, the revised marshalled list and the groupings, which I have agreed as Presiding Officer. The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for five minutes before the first division. The period of voting for that first division will be 30 seconds. Thereafter, we will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate, and 30 seconds for all other divisions.
After section 3
We come to group 1. Amendment 17, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 26 to 34.
These amendments deal with the performance of the Scottish Housing Regulator’s functions, and respond to concerns that members of the Local Government and Communities Committee raised during stage 2. Amendment 17 requires the regulator to prepare, consult on and publish a statement that explains how it will discharge its functions in respect of its section 2 objective, and how it will do so in a proportionate, targeted and transparent way.
The regulator’s objective under section 2 is to safeguard and promote the interests of those who are or may become homeless, tenants or recipients of housing services that are provided by social landlords. Section 3(2) requires the regulator to perform its functions in a proportionate, targeted, accountable and transparent way, which will in effect provide the framework for the exercise of all its functions.
Amendment 17 responds to concerns that committee members raised about how the regulator would achieve its objective in respect of homeless people and those on waiting lists, and how it would ensure that its regulation of different types of landlord, particularly smaller landlords, would be proportionate.
The additional duty under amendment 17 requires the regulator to consult on and issue a broad statement of its policy and principles—in effect, a statement of intent. That would set the context for its more detailed codes of practice and statements on specific functions, such as the code of practice on inquiries. I would expect the statement to reflect the differences in approach that the regulator will need to take in protecting and promoting the interests of different groups, and to explain how the regulator will take account of the different circumstances and resources of social landlords and avoid imposing unnecessary burdens or bureaucracy.
Amendment 26 removes the regulator’s power to charge a fee to bodies that apply for inclusion in the register of social landlords. It is a technical amendment to ensure consistency with the amendment that was made at stage 2, which removed the power for the regulator to charge fees in respect of its functions.
Amendment 27 and the remaining amendments in the group add prospective tenants, people who are homeless and those who receive housing services from a social landlord to the list of those to whom the ministers and the regulator must have regard, or whom they must consult on their different functions under the bill. Under its section 2 objective, the regulator must safeguard and promote the interests of those groups along with the interests of tenants and homeless persons. The amendments ensure that the views of interested parties on relevant matters are considered, and that the consultation requirements throughout the bill are consistent.
I invite Parliament to support amendment 17 and the other amendments in the group.
I move amendment 17.
Amendment 17 agreed to.
Section 7—The Regulator’s membership
We come to group 2. Amendment 18, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 19 to 25.
The amendments relate to the Scottish Housing Regulator’s constitution. Amendment 18 removes the provision for the chief executive to be a member of the board, and the concept of ordinary members appointed by ministers as distinct from the chief executive, as that is no longer relevant.
The other amendments in the group are consequential. The chief executive will be a member of the regulator’s staff, and as the senior official they will be its accountable officer. The amendments are intended to avoid any potential for or perception of conflict of interest. They are based on the principle that the accountable officer’s duty to ensure the regularity and propriety of expenditure by the board is not compromised by their being a member of the board. Accordingly, I invite the Parliament to support amendment 18 and the related amendments.
I move amendment 18.
Amendment 18 agreed to.
Amendment 19 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 8—Disqualification and removal from office
Amendment 20 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 9—Expenses of ordinary members
Amendment 21 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 10—Chairing
Amendments 22 to 25 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 22—Application
Amendment 26 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 24—Legislative registration criteria
Amendment 27 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 33—Scottish Social Housing Charter: supplemental
Amendments 28 and 29 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 34—Performance improvement targets
Amendment 30 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 35—Guidance: housing activities
Amendment 31 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 36A—Financial management or governance targets for registered social landlords
We come to group 3. Amendment 45, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, is grouped with amendments 46 to 51.
The purpose of my series of amendments in the group is to remove from the bill a number of provisions that would give the Scottish Housing Regulator significant new powers to set governance and financial targets for housing associations. In introducing his amendments at stage 2, the minister suggested that the new sections would add
“to the lower-level powers that are available to the regulator to address performance issues among RSLs”
and
“to the range of regulatory tools that the regulator can use to promote improvement in the management of RSLs.”—[Official Report, Local Government and Communities Committee, 22 September 2010; c 3457.]
I believe that the powers are simply unnecessary. Section 14 already gives the regulator open-ended powers to address concerns about governance or financial performance. Section 36 allows it to publish standards for the financial management and governance of registered social landlords. Section 52 gives it wide-ranging powers to require an RSL to submit a performance improvement plan if the regulator is concerned about financial management or governance, and section 53 gives it wide-ranging powers to issue an enforcement notice if it is concerned about an RSL’s financial management or governance. The powers that I have described are in addition to the higher-level intervention powers in sections 55, 57, 59 and 62.
I want the bill to have teeth where it needs them to deal with poor performance or risk. Indeed, my amendment 47 makes that clear. However, including in the bill a general power to set targets is not the way to do it.
I move amendment 45.
I support my colleague Patricia Ferguson’s amendments 45 and 46. The first reason to delete sections 36A and 36B is that it appears that they were inserted into the bill without adequate consultation. The bill already contains more than adequate powers for the regulator to take enforcement action and apply sanctions against an RSL that is performing badly. An RSL should be accountable to its tenants and communities. Sections 36A and 36B interfere with that principle. A number of the briefings that we have received support Patricia Ferguson’s amendments and I hope that the Parliament will do so, too.
I support the comments that have been made on the matter, subject of course to the comments that the minister will make later on. The issue has been the subject of considerable agitation and concern from Glasgow housing associations in particular, which take the view that the Government did not consult them about the additions to the bill, which were highlighted only relatively recently. The housing associations are uncertain what the additional powers would be used for and do not believe that they are necessary.
The key point is the one that Mary Mulligan touched on: there is a bit of a tension between the regulator’s oversight function and the accountability of a community-based housing association to its local community and people. We need to get the balance right, but it seems to me, at least, that sections 36A and 36B go considerably beyond what is necessary and substantially interfere with that balance. That is unhelpful, particularly given the other extensive powers that are in the bill. I hope that the minister will have second thoughts on the matter.
14:15
I urge the minister to support the amendments for reasons that are very much along the lines of what members have already said. Undoubtedly, one of the strengths of the community-controlled housing association movement was that effective regulation and its strong asset base gave it deep and real credibility and encouraged banks to lend; however, it was also strengthened by the sense that it had to respond to its tenants and community and the fact that, because of the close scrutiny of local tenants, it had a different way of doing business and making spending decisions.
I am concerned by the fact that the measures have been described as draconian by not only the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland, but the Glasgow and West of Scotland Forum of Housing Associations, which is very serious about this business and recognises that there is a particular problem. It feels, for example, that there is an issue about micromanagement and independence. I ask colleagues throughout the chamber, who I know support the housing association movement and are opposed to overregulation, perhaps to reflect on what the powers will do. We should be celebrating the achievements and power of housing associations, but their anxiety about the lack of full consultation on the provisions has led them to ask us to think again about them. It would be good if the minister took heed of that by supporting Patricia Ferguson’s amendments, so that we can ensure not just that the movement is properly regulated but that we do not squeeze out the very thing that has made it most effective.
I remind members to ensure that their BlackBerrys and mobile phones are switched off while they are in the chamber.
After last Thursday, Presiding Officer, I have checked that my mobile phone is indeed off.
I am puzzled that Patricia Ferguson has lodged these amendments. When provisions to allow the regulator to set financial management and governance targets were discussed at stage 2, they met no resistance from the committee. I remind members of the principle here: the role of the regulator is to safeguard and promote the interests of tenants as well as homeless persons and others who receive services from social landlords. For RSLs, strong financial management and governance are critical not only to the delivery of good services for tenants, but to their viability. Private lenders set great store by the regulator’s ability to step in to take action as quickly as possible where concerns about financial management and governance arise. These powers allow the regulator to take early action—
Will the minister give way?
I would like to make some progress before I let the member in.
As I said at stage 2, the power to set improvement targets for financial management and governance is similar to the section 34 power allowing the regulator to set performance improvement targets for housing activities. These powers are some of the lower-level powers that are available to the regulator to protect tenants. At stage 2, the committee discussed and agreed the provisions; Patricia Ferguson’s amendments seek to remove them and, as a result, to remove some of the safeguards for tenants.
I am not sure that the amendments will be welcomed by all RSLs, given that they seek to replace assessment and regulation based on specific targets set by the regulator with regulation based on broader matters such as those that are set out in the section 36 code of conduct or other aspects of financial management and governance that the regulator considers relevant. That could undermine the regulator’s objective of being transparent in carrying out its functions.
By anyone’s account, these are not low-level powers. If they are as important as the minister says they are, why were they not set out in the bill as introduced? After all, they were added relatively late at stage 2 without any background discussion, apart from the limited debate in committee.
In the consultation prior to stage 1, and indeed during stage 1, we had representations on the need for this approach and, having listened to the committee and various other representations, we decided to introduce the provisions.
The financial management and governance targets in the bill should be seen in the context of the protections and balances on the regulator’s powers that are provided for elsewhere in the bill. They ensure that there are clear parameters within which the regulator must work. For example, there is the section 3(2) requirement for the regulator to be “proportionate, accountable and transparent” and the section 51 requirement for the regulator to prepare and consult on a code of practice that sets out whether and how it will intervene. Because the bill gives greater definition and clarity to everybody, I invite Patricia Ferguson not to press her amendments.
The amendments that have been made to the bill are wholly inappropriate in dealing with locally based housing associations. Value and weight are put on those housing associations by their tenants and those in nearby communities, who often want to be looked after and cared for by them. It is a matter of their independence. The fact that those associations are locally based is one of their great assets.
What is currently in the bill is too vague. The only real protection on offer for housing associations is the fact that the regulator’s decision can be challenged through appeals to Parliament and a judicial review. That is not appropriate. My amendments, particularly amendment 47, would achieve clearer statutory provision and would avoid that.
The minister mentioned that RSLs might be concerned about my amendments. If he thinks that, he might have consulted them before lodging his amendments, but he and his officials patently failed to do that. The Glasgow and West of Scotland Forum of Housing Associations consulted its members. Sixty of those who were consulted in the short period of a week were against the provisions as they stand.
I will press amendment 45.
The question is, that amendment 45 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. As it is the first division of the afternoon, there will be a five-minute suspension.
14:22
Meeting suspended.
14:27
On resuming—
The question was, that amendment 45 be agreed to. We were not agreed, so there will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 61, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
It therefore falls to me to use my casting vote. As always, I do so to maintain the status quo and must therefore vote against the amendment.
Amendment 45 disagreed to.
Section 36B—Guidance: financial management or governance targets
Amendment 46 moved—[Patricia Ferguson].
The question is, that amendment 46 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 61, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 46 disagreed to.
Section 38—Assessment of social landlords
Amendment 47 moved—[Patricia Ferguson].
The question is, that amendment 47 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 61, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 47 disagreed to.
Section 42—Inquiries: survey powers
Amendment 48 not moved.
Section 45—Information from tenants on significant performance failures
Amendment 49 not moved.
Section 47A—Social landlords’ involvement of tenants etc when providing information
Amendment 32 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 48—Code of practice: inquiries
Amendment 33 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 51—Code of practice: regulatory intervention
Amendment 34 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 52—Performance improvement plans
Amendment 50 not moved.
Section 53—Enforcement notices
Amendment 51 not moved.
Section 107—Effect of disposals without consent
We come to group 4. Amendment 35, in the name of the minister, is the only amendment in the group.
14:30
Amendment 35 makes it clear that a disposal of land by a registered social landlord would be void if it did not seek the regulator’s consent before the disposal is made.
Section 107 provides that a disposal of land by an RSL without the regulator’s consent, where that consent is required, is void. That means that such a disposal would be treated for all legal purposes as invalid and the RSL would not be able to seek consent retrospectively. Amendment 35 is intended to put that position beyond doubt, and I invite Parliament to support it.
I move amendment 35.
Amendment 35 agreed to.
Section 127B—Removal of residential restriction on a long lease where lessee is a social landlord
We come to group 5. Amendment 36, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 37.
Amendments 36 and 37 extend exemptions to the 20-year lease and standard security rules to rural housing bodies. I pay tribute to my colleague Alasdair Morgan for raising the issue at stage 2 and to other members, such as Fergus Ewing, who has worked tirelessly on behalf of, in his case, rural housing bodies in the Highlands, to bring back the issue at stage 3.
The Government is supportive of widening the options for affordable housing in rural and in urban areas. I am very sympathetic to the difficulties that are faced by many rural communities and organisations, such as Dumfries and Galloway Small Communities Housing Trust—I mention that just in case amendment 35 also goes to the casting vote, Presiding Officer—as they try to address the shortage of affordable housing in their areas. The Government agrees with the view that rural housing bodies should be included in the exemptions from the 20-year rules, which have already been accepted for social landlords.
Amendment 36 allows rural housing bodies to lease property from other organisations for 20 years or more for residential purposes. Amendment 37 gives rural housing bodies the option to give up their right to redeem long-term debt early if they wish to do so. Together, the amendments should enable rural housing bodies and rural landlords to work together to provide much-needed affordable housing in our rural areas. I ask Parliament to support amendments 36 and 37.
I move amendment 36.
The amendments tidy up the principal amendments, which were lodged by the minister and approved by the committee at stage 2 in order to bring, as the minister said, rural housing bodies within the ambit of the amendments made to the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974, which exempted social landlords and their connected bodies from the 20-year rules. That change in the law will enable social landlords to lease residential properties for periods in excess of 20 years, which would otherwise be prohibited by section 8 of the 1974 act.
It is worth reflecting on exactly what that will mean in practice, because it is not as innocuous as it looks. In essence, it is designed to permit housing associations to enter into funding transactions whereby they will sell part of their housing stock to an institutional investor, such as a pension fund, a bank or another city institution, and lease back the homes on a long-term basis, such that they continue to be managed by the housing association, which will continue to be the landlord in respect of its tenants.
I support the Scottish Government in that objective, as do my Conservative colleagues. Other members should note before they vote that what we are talking about is the sale by Scotland’s housing associations of hundreds if not thousands of rented homes to city institutions. Is it not a supreme irony that the members on the Government, Labour and Liberal benches, who have been and will be voting today to deny the rights of ordinary working people to purchase their own home from their housing association, are quite happy to support the proposition that the same housing association should be able to sell that home, over the tenant’s head, to an institutional investor? That is exactly what will happen. It is indeed an irony that the Scottish National Party Government supports selling Scotland’s affordable homes to the city of London but not to the tenants who live in them. I trust that members will reflect on that before they vote.
Mr McLetchie should read the rest of the bill, because one of the amendments that I lodged at stage 2 provided that tenants had to approve by ballot any change in the ownership of the housing association. That means that any transfer of ownership or any takeover has to be approved by the tenants. So, although Mr McLetchie gave an ingenious and very funny speech, the primary objective of amendments 36 and 37 is to allow us—as Glasgow City Council wishes to do immediately that the bill becomes law—to raise private capital for the funding of social housing. At a time when the coalition Government is slashing investment in housing south of the border, we are trying to maintain that level of investment by innovative financial engineering to ensure that the housing remains in social ownership as it is at present.
Glasgow is a very good example of what amendments 36 and 37 will do. They will allow us to get the investment needed to build many more houses—in Glasgow’s case, particularly in the transformational areas—to try to overcome the impact of the cuts that the coalition Government is imposing from London.
Amendment 36 agreed to.
Section 127C—Heritable security redemption rights where debtor is a social landlord
Amendment 37 moved—[Alex Neil]—and agreed to.
Section 129—Limitation on right to buy: new tenants
We come to group 6. Amendment 4, in the name of David McLetchie, is grouped with amendment 6.
The purpose of amendment 4 is to delete section 129 from the bill and preserve for new tenants in Scotland the right to buy conferred on them by the previous Labour-Liberal Democrat Scottish Executive in the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001, when they were given a modernised right to buy. Of course, that was a pale and poor imitation of the generous right to buy conferred on them by Mrs Thatcher, but it was welcome for all that, because it acknowledged two key points. The first is that owning one’s own home remains an aspiration for many Scots and people on lower incomes should be assisted to own their homes in the communities in which they live, which would be all the better for having a diversity of tenures.
The desire of Government and Parliament to facilitate that aspiration is precisely why we have shared ownership and shared equity schemes. As I have said in previous debates, why is it that the Scottish Government devotes more than £40 million per annum to schemes that would give a council tenant of five years’ standing the opportunity to buy a new house on a new estate but is hell-bent on denying that same tenant the opportunity to buy the home in which he or she has lived for the past five years so that they can remain in their community? That simply does not make sense.
The second key point that the modernised right to buy recognised is that receipts that are generated from right-to-buy sales could play an important role in financing new affordable housing. Overall, since the right to buy was introduced in 1980, sale receipts have amounted to more than £7 billion in monetary terms, which amounts to more than £11 billion in real terms, at today’s prices. Those receipts have facilitated the construction by councils and housing associations of more than 130,000 new affordable homes for rent and financed the improvement of many more homes for the benefit of the tenants who have chosen to stay as tenants rather than become home owners.
The Government seems to wish to do away with that important source of revenue precisely when affordable housing budgets are likely to be squeezed significantly, as the minister just said. That is sheer madness. Evidence to the Local Government and Communities Committee from housing associations and evidence from the Parliament’s own Finance Committee has highlighted the negative impact of a drop in sales receipts on future programmes of new building and home improvement. We ignore that evidence at our peril. That is why we should continue to give new tenants the right to buy their homes after five years, should they wish to do so.
Amendment 6 would delete section 131 entirely and preserve the modernised right to buy for new supply social housing. It has been argued that, if the right to buy was not abolished for new social housing, no new social housing would be built. That is nonsense, like much of the other nonsense that is parroted about the right to buy and its impact. The historical record shows that, from 1979-80 to date, councils and housing associations have built 137,744 new dwellings. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, when the right to buy was at its peak, between 3,279 and 7,708 new affordable homes for rent were built every year. That was possible because of the benefits of recycling sale receipts into the construction and improvement of new affordable homes.
The fundamental difference between my party and others in the Parliament is that, for us, affordable housing is affordable, whether it is rented from a social landlord or owned by its occupiers, who might have been assisted to own it through a discounted price under the right to buy or through shared equity schemes that the Government finances. Our concern is to increase the total stock of affordable housing. Some are obsessed with who controls affordable housing and seem to think that only housing that is rented through a council or social landlord can be classified as affordable. That is reflected in the absurd claim that selling a council house means that the house is lost, as if—as I have said before—it was towed out into the middle of the North Sea and sunk, instead of continuing to provide a home for the working family that has bought it and lived in it for many years.
Will David McLetchie give way?
No, thank you.
Sustaining the right to buy can help us to build more affordable homes for our people in the future and to increase and improve our total housing stock in Scotland.
With pleasure, I move amendment 4.
Mr McLetchie repeated his standard speech on the right to buy. He is correct on one point: Labour members will not support his amendments 4 and 6. Anyone who considers the statistics on the demand for social housing will see that that demand is increasing. Despite the new homes that councils and housing associations have built, demand is still not being met. Indeed, thanks to the unreasonable conditions that mortgage lenders are placing on people who might seek to obtain a mortgage, the demand for social housing is increasing even faster.
Therefore, it is proportionate to prohibit the right to buy for new-build housing and new tenants. When people in those circumstances take up their new tenancies, they know the conditions under which they do so. No rights will be removed from existing tenants. The Government and the Local Government and Communities Committee have agreed exceptions, which include that in my amendment on people who move because of another’s antisocial behaviour.
I suggest to members that the bill contains the correct balance of measures to meet demand and aspirations.
14:45
Members may, like me, have heard that speech from Mr McLetchie before. Mary Mulligan was right to say that it is a regurgitation of words that we have heard from him time and again. Whether it is in the chamber or in committee, Mr McLetchie seeks to justify the unjustifiable.
The social rented sector has moved on significantly since the 1980s. Thank God, say I and many others. We need to modernise the right to buy and bring it fully up to date. Mr McLetchie’s amendments would be a retrograde step, which is why the Liberal Democrats will not support them this afternoon.
At stage 2, Mr McLetchie complained that the rest of us were obsessed with the issue of ownership. Clearly, it is a disease that he has caught.
The big difference between right to buy and programmes such as shared equity is that with shared equity, people pay their way and the assets of the housing sector are not stripped through a huge discount. Tenants who are left have to pick up the bill for the outstanding debt, both capital repayment and interest.
At the moment, 3,300 new council houses are being built in Scotland. If Mr McLetchie’s amendments are agreed to, that would not happen.
I remind Mr McLetchie that in 1980, when the right to buy was introduced by Mrs Thatcher, more than 5,000 new council houses were built in Scotland. The number declined year upon year until 1997—the last year of the previous Conservative Government—when councils built 177 new houses in Scotland. If that is not living proof that the right to buy destroyed the council house building programme in Scotland, I do not know what is.
The Government has been balanced and moderate in its approach in the bill. Mr McLetchie has achieved something unique in the Parliament: thanks to him, I am going to agree with Mary Mulligan, in saying that we have the balance about right. By the end of stage 2, all members of the Local Government and Communities Committee except Mr McLetchie had agreed that the bill gets the balance right.
I remind members of the Government’s intention, which is to safeguard the existing stock of social housing. Up to 18,000 houses will be kept in the social rented sector that otherwise would be sold under the right to buy, while we continue to respect existing entitlements and encourage new social housing, particularly new council housing. The provisions command the support of members of all parties, apart from the Conservatives, and of those who work in the sector. The Government’s response to Mr McLetchie’s amendments reflects the broad consensus in Parliament and beyond on the issue.
On the detail of the amendments, as Mary Mulligan said, the provisions in amendment 4 were considered and rejected at stage 2. Removing the limitation on the right to buy for new tenants would strike out one of the most significant measures that the bill introduces to reduce right-to-buy sales. It is completely at odds with the action needed now and with the bill’s approach to the right to buy.
Amendment 6 would remove the provision to restrict the right to buy on new supply social housing. The same amendment was debated and rejected by the committee at stage 2. It would strike out the other significant measure that the bill introduces to limit the right to buy—a measure that, again, is supported by the majority of committee members and by all the stakeholders. Therefore, the Government’s response to amendments 4 and 6 reflects the broad consensus among all, with the exception of the Scottish Conservatives.
I invite Mr McLetchie to withdraw amendment 4 and not to move amendment 6, and by doing so to bring himself in line with the realities of life in the 21st century rather than in the first part of the 20th century.
I have listened with interest to other members’ remarks. I was particularly interested to hear Mary Mulligan confirm the Labour U-turn on the issue of social housing and the right to buy, underlining Labour members’ betrayal of the working people they like to pretend to represent.
Jim Tolson said that I had made this speech many times. I have, because the right thing to say is well worthy of repetition in the Parliament and is heard all too little.
The minister sought to distinguish between shared equity and the supposedly huge discounts that he is abolishing. The substantial subvention that is attached to shared equity schemes is far greater than the subsidy that is attached to the modernised right to buy that the minister seeks to abolish for new housing and new tenancies. As the minister will be aware, the huge discount that he is abolishing is subject to a maximum ceiling of £15,000, which has been fixed at that level since 30 September 2002, so the subsidy is far from huge. If he wished to abolish huge discounts, he should have addressed the generous preserved right to buy that Mrs Thatcher provided. Of course, the minister and the Government do not have the courage to take on the tenants who benefited from Mrs Thatcher’s measures. That is the significant difference.
As the minister well knows, the people who presided over the final demolition and destruction of the council house building programme in Scotland were Labour and the Liberal Democrats, who—as SNP members constantly tell us—built zero, or near to zero, houses during their term of office.
Members: Six!
I beg your pardon, Presiding Officer—it was six. How could I have forgotten the six that were built in eight years. In fairness to the Labour and Liberal Democrat Executive, the minister omitted to say that both the Executive and the Conservative Government built many thousands of affordable homes through our housing associations. The minister’s policy should have continued along those lines.
I will press my amendments.
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 16, Against 106, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 4 disagreed to.
Section 131—Limitation on right to buy: new supply social housing
Amendment 6 moved—[David McLetchie].
The question is, that amendment 6 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 16, Against 107, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 6 disagreed to.
After section 131
Group 7 is on reports on right to buy. Amendment 7, in the name of David McLetchie, is grouped with amendments 8 and 9.
The purpose of these three amendments is to impose on ministers a duty to collect and publish information on a number of matters relating to the right to buy. One of the features of the Local Government and Communities Committee’s inquiry into the bill at stage 1 and its stage 1 report was the extent to which we were able to deconstruct some of the myths and prejudices surrounding council housing and the right to buy. The committee’s report was able to bring together the facts about right to buy in a single document, and to contradict some of the wilder and unfounded assertions that were made in the course of stage 1 by certain protagonists, most notably the Minister for Housing and Communities himself.
One of the wilder assertions, which remained uncorrected and which was perpetuated by the minister in the stage 1 debate—and which came close to being repeated today—was that made in relation to the outstanding debt on council houses following the exercise of right to buy.
The minister said at stage 1:
“if a council sells off a house at a £15,000 discount, and it uses the receipts from that sell-off to put down against the debt, an outstanding debt of around £7,000 per house on average still remains.”—[Official Report, 23 June 2010; c 27619.]
That is quite simply not true. It is demonstrably false—although it was merely a repetition of an equally false assertion that was made by the minister in evidence to the committee, which is recorded at paragraph 108 of the stage 1 report. Not surprisingly, that assertion was the subject of a correction letter from the minister to the committee on 3 September. No wonder the minister had to qualify and correct his remarks, because what he said was manifest nonsense.
Written answers from the minister to questions lodged by me established that receipts from right to buy exceeded the amount of debt that was repaid by councils on housing account and that fell due for repayment year on year. Accordingly, the reason why the level of debt rose between 2005 and 2007 was not because of the right to buy; it was because councils contracted new debt on their housing accounts. Moreover, without the surplus that was generated by right-to-buy receipts, either the projects that those borrowings were financing would have been curtailed or scaled back or the amount that was borrowed would have increased, and the debt burden on the remaining tenants would have been even greater.
Amendment 7 requires the Scottish ministers to bring together on an annual basis all that useful information about housing debt and sale receipts.
The purpose of amendment 8 is to impose an obligation on ministers to collect and publish information—which they presently fail to do—on the numbers of tenants who are eligible for a modernised right to buy and for a preserved right to buy.
One would have expected any provisions on reforming the right to buy in this so-called evidence-based bill—such legislation is held up constantly as being one of the characteristics of the Parliament—to have been based on analysis of the nature of the right to buy that tenants presently hold and how that has changed since the introduction of the modernised right to buy on 30 September 2002. Members will appreciate that, as new tenancies are granted, the new tenants have the modernised right, rather than the preserved right. Accordingly, as time passes, the proportion and number of tenants with a modernised right to buy will increase and the proportion of those with a preserved right to buy will fall.
That information is important, because the bill applies only to new housing stock and new tenancies. Accordingly, it reflects only the miserable modernised right to buy, which was introduced by the previous Labour-Liberal Democrat Scottish Executive.
Just for clarification, I am sure that it was a slip of the tongue, but Mr McLetchie is wrong to say that the bill applies to new tenancies—it applies to new tenants, and there is a big difference.
I beg your pardon, minister—I stand corrected. The minister is quite right to say that it is new tenants—I am happy for him to correct me on that point, although that does not, of course, undermine the substance of what I was saying.
When we talk about restricting the right to buy, all that we are restricting is the right of tenants to buy their home after five years’ occupation, subject to a maximum discount of £15,000 in cash terms. That is the discount that we are talking about.
It came to light at an early stage of consideration of the bill that the Scottish Government does not collect and publish that most basic information about the nature of the right to buy that Scotland’s tenants hold. Government officials have apparently been incapable of writing to Scotland’s councils to ask for a breakdown of stock, even though the information is readily available, as I established by writing to the 26 councils in Scotland that are still landlords.
For example, Falkirk Council told me that there have been 6,238 new lets since September 2002, with tenants on the modernised right to buy, which left 9,389 tenants on the preserved right to buy. Angus Council has 3,099 tenants on the modernised right to buy and 3,684 on the preserved right to buy. I could go on through all 26 councils—
15:00
Please do not do so, Mr McLetchie.
I think that members get my drift.
We need to ensure that in future members have a sound evidential basis for policies that are brought forward in the Parliament. I commend amendment 8.
Amendment 9 highlights another glaring omission, this time on the receipts that registered social landlords derive from the sale of homes under right to buy, which apparently cannot be made available, because RSLs report only on the sale of fixed assets and although RTB sales are included in those sales, they are not separately identified.
It cannot be too difficult for every housing association in Scotland to inform the Scottish Government about how many houses it has sold under right to buy in a given year and about the proceeds that were derived from those sales. Even in these difficult times for our hard-worked civil servants, it cannot be too difficult to compile and publish the information along with the plethora of other information on housing that is readily available. Let us do that in future, so that we can assess the extent to which social landlords utilise receipts from right-to-buy sales to fund new building programmes or improvements to existing stock.
I move amendment 7.
I support amendments 7, 8 and 9. At stage 2, I moved an amendment that would have required a report to be compiled three years after the bill was enacted, to show the overall impact of right-to-buy legislation, including the bill. It is unfortunate that my amendment was not agreed to.
The amendments in David McLetchie’s name would provide for the publication of some of the information that could have been included in the report that I envisaged. The publication of such information would allow members to see the statistics and conduct their own analyses. Our analysis and interpretation of the figures might be slightly different from that of Mr McLetchie, but at least we would be able to produce it. Therefore, we will support amendments 7, 8 and 9.
In many previous debates, the Conservatives have persistently told us that we should not pass legislation without being aware of what it will cost to implement. I am sure that it has just slipped David McLetchie’s mind to tell us his assessment of how much it would cost Government and RSLs to collect and publish the information that he seeks. Perhaps in his closing speech on the group he will give us the figure and tell us whether in the current context of the cuts that we face, which his party and his Liberal colleagues have imposed on us, money would be better spent providing social housing or collecting information about it.
Amendments 7, 8 and 9, in Mr McLetchie’s name, would require the Government annually to collect and publish information on the right to buy. Much of the information that Mr McLetchie is requesting is already published. For example, information is published on the number of houses sold under right to buy by local authorities, the number of houses sold under right to buy by RSLs and the outstanding housing debt.
However, like Mary Mulligan, I accept Mr McLetchie’s argument about placing publication on a statutory footing and providing the additional information that is not currently published. I do so for two reasons. First, the Government has always championed freedom of information and transparency, which the proposed approach will advance in the RSL sector. Secondly, the publication of the information will perhaps convince even some backbenchers in Mr McLetchie’s party that we have got it right and he has got it wrong on the right to buy. Information is power and I hope that in this case it will be persuasive and make him realise the error of his ways.
The Government introduced the bill against a backcloth of not having the information, so its policy making clearly proceeds on the basis that ignorance is bliss. However, I welcome support for the amendments from Mary Mulligan and the Labour benches and from the minister and the Scottish Government. The approach will aid policy making.
In response to Patrick Harvie’s question about how much the proposal will cost, as the minister said, much of the work would involve simply collating information, some of which is in the public domain. With regard to the other information, it is only information that any good local authority or social landlord organisation should already have in its accountancy and audit system, and it need only be presented to the Government. Therefore, we may take it that the cost of the collection and provision of the information is insignificant. If it were not, I am sure that we would have heard a great deal about that from the minister, who has, in the past, opposed other amendments on the ground of cost. I am sure that he would have been quick to make the same point in relation to this amendment if that were a valid point of objection.
On Patrick Harvie’s broader question about cuts, he is, of course, unwilling to wake up to the financial crisis that was visited on this country by the outgoing Labour Government, but this party is not going to be found wanting in that regard, as we tackle the deficit and the black hole in the public finances.
As Patrick Harvie says, that might mean that, when John Swinney presents his budget to the Parliament, there will be cuts in the budget for affordable housing. All that I would ask him and other members to reflect on is the possibility that their actions today will preclude the generation of sale receipts from the sale of homes, which would help to finance programmes in the future. Moreover, I ask members to reflect on the crass stupidity of parties in this chamber that did not facilitate the stock transfer of homes, when billions of pounds of local authority housing debt could have been written off had they done so. That crass stupidity is an error that they will come to regret.
Can Mr McLetchie clarify whether the money for stock transfer is no longer available under the Conservative Government?
I advise Mr McLetchie and others that we must address the amendments that we are talking about. I know that arguments may go quite wide on occasion, but I think that this one is going too wide.
In that case, I am not sure how to deal with the points that have been raised. I stuck to the subject and I was merely responding to the expansion of the debate by other members. However, if you wish to reprimand them for that, Presiding Officer, far be it from me to hold you back.
On Mary Mulligan’s question, the minister asked a similar question during the stage 1 debate. At that point, I suggested to him that it might be a good idea if he were to write to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. However, that does not detract from the point that, when that money was available, the Labour Party yet again U-turned on its previous policy of supporting stock transfer—
No—
Yes, it did. The Labour Party—
Mr McLetchie, please. Come on.
But they raised the subject, Presiding Officer.
And there is no reason for you to carry on with it.
All that I would say is that there is a clear answer to the point that Mary Mulligan and others have raised on that subject, and I would be more than happy to debate the subject again.
Amendment 7 agreed to.
Amendments 8 and 9 moved—[David McLetchie]—and agreed to.
Group 8 concerns registered social landlords and the exemption from the right to buy. Amendment 10, in the name of Jim Tolson, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 10 is a proposal that we have unashamedly reintroduced at stage 3. It relates to exemptions from the right to buy for registered social landlords. At stage 2, I sought to extend the exemption beyond 2010, to 2042, but the amendment that I have lodged for debate today would extend the exemption by just 10 years, until 2022. That is to allow registered social landlords not only an opportunity to protect their stock but a reasonable amount of time in which they can reinvest in that stock and build new homes. It would give a guarantee that is not there at the moment. I know that the minister may well tell me that registered social landlords can already extend their exemption for 10 years, but they may do so only on a voluntary basis.
By including the amendment in the bill, we will not only give all registered social landlords a level playing field but ensure that they have the same chance to reinvest money in the social housing sector, which will provide much-needed homes. In fact, the amendment is supported not only by the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, which has projected that, if the amendment is not agreed, some 2,800 houses could be lost from the registered social landlord sector across Scotland in the next 10 years, but by the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland.
I urge the Government, looking at the issue on a more reasonable timescale, to back the amendment not only for the sake of registered social landlords in Scotland but to ensure that the quality and certainty of housing are provided for those who need it.
I move amendment 10.
Members have heard from the SFHA and individual housing associations on the 10-year exemption from the right to buy. Again, I believe that the bill seeks a balance between not removing individual tenants’ rights and maintaining stock in the affordable rented sector to meet demand.
It is not as if housing association tenants will suddenly have the right to buy—the exemption will have been in place for 10 years. It is also the case that some housing associations have become charities and will therefore not be affected by the right to buy and, as the minister confirmed at stage 2, others will be able to apply to ministers to maintain the exemption. That allows a flexibility that is welcome and part of the balance that the committee sought to strike, which I referred to earlier in relation to the amendments in the name of David McLetchie. Amendment 10 is unnecessary, and Labour will not support it.
Jim Tolson was one of the committee members who thought that the Government could go further in its reforms of the right to buy. I respect his position, and I believe that he understands mine.
The intention behind the first part of amendment 10 is to exempt all charitable RSLs from the right to buy, including those registered after 18 July 2001, which of course includes the six housing stock transfer housing associations. That would interfere with tenants’ existing right-to-buy entitlements because all tenants of charitable RSLs who have an existing right to buy would lose that right.
Although we appreciate Jim Tolson’s position, the Government cannot support the proposal. There has been no consultation with the RSLs and tenants who would be affected by the amendment. They may also share my concerns about how the amendment is drafted, which could produce the opposite effect to that intended by Jim Tolson. Amending the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 in a way that refers to current registration under what is now repealed legislation would introduce the significant risk that the amendment could be interpreted as meaning that no charitable RSLs are exempt from the right to buy. Whether all or no charitable RSLs are made exempt, I do not believe that it would be right to make such a significant change by amendment at this late stage in proceedings.
The second part of amendment 10 would suspend the right to buy for non-charitable RSLs for 20 years instead of the current 10-year period, which runs from 2002 to 2012. Again, that would interfere with the existing right-to-buy entitlements of tenants, so the Government cannot support it. We have a manifesto commitment not to interfere with the existing rights of tenants.
There is already provision in the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001 to extend the 10-year suspension of right to buy if RSLs apply for it. Applications will be assessed against criteria developed in consultation with stakeholders and will be in place 12 months before the current suspension expires. Applications for subsequent 10-year extensions can also be granted. That can all be done without affecting existing tenants’ rights. We should also bear it in mind that not all RSLs may require or desire a blanket exemption. Our solution gives them flexibility to apply to opt in or opt out of the right to buy, depending on local circumstances.
The committee’s stage 1 report supported our position, recognising the need for flexibility so that landlords can respond to local circumstances.
15:15
I want to press the minister on what “local circumstances” might mean. In my area in the west end of Glasgow, the level of sale of council houses or social houses for rent is often high. If a registered social landlord could show that the rate of sale was disproportionately high and was reducing its stock at a rapid pace, might that be grounds for applying for a suspension of the right to buy? Would that be considered?
There might well be different circumstances in different areas. That is why we are retaining the flexibility of the current legislation rather than introducing a blanket measure of the type that Jim Tolson proposes.
Jim Tolson lodged a similar amendment at stage 2. As he said, the only difference was that the period of suspension was to be 40 years. That amendment was rejected by the committee. Both parts of amendment 10 would interfere with tenants’ existing rights, which the Government has said consistently it will not do. I therefore ask Jim Tolson to withdraw amendment 10.
I have listened carefully to what Mary Mulligan and the minister have had to say. Although I would like to see my proposal go forward, I seek the Parliament’s permission to withdraw amendment 10.
Amendment 10, by agreement, withdrawn.
Section 132—Introductory
Group 9 is on private rented housing. Amendment 38, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 39 to 43, 2 and 16.
Amendments 38 to 43 are all Government amendments. Amendments 38 to 42 seek to remove from the bill sections 132 to 136, which amend the landlord registration regime in part 8 of the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Act 2004. Equivalent provisions are contained in part 1 of the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill, which was introduced on 4 October. The equivalent sections in that bill have been enhanced and extended to take account of concerns that MSPs and stakeholders have expressed.
Amendment 43 seeks to remove from the bill section 141, which amends the houses in multiple occupation licensing regime in part 5 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 2006. That section is replicated in section 13 of the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill.
As I explained at stage 2, I believe that all the private rented sector issues that the bill deals with would best be considered as part of the integrated package that we have presented in the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill, as the committee recommended. I made it clear to the committee that I intended to seek to remove the private rented sector provisions from the bill at stage 3, and that is what amendments 39 to 43 seek to do.
That approach accords with the view that the committee expressed in its stage 1 report on the bill, in which it said that it
“would have preferred to consider changes to the existing legislation in their totality”.
I responded to that by bringing forward an integrated package in the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill. Taken together, the measures in that bill provide a substantial and more effective package of improvements to the legislation on the private rented sector, including further improvements to the landlord registration and HMO licensing systems. It also contains provisions to give local authorities powers to tackle overcrowding in vulnerable communities and changes to the tenancy regime. I believe that those proposals are best considered as a unified approach. It is right to give the whole package proper parliamentary scrutiny and to provide time for stage 1 consideration.
Amendments 2 and 16 relate to the coming into force of section 141 of the Housing (Scotland) Bill, which I have explained should be removed from the bill and considered as part of the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill. Consequently, I do not believe that the amendments in the name of Pauline McNeill are necessary. I urge the Parliament to resist amendments 2 and 16 and ask Pauline McNeill not to move them. I ask Parliament to support amendments 38 to 43.
I move amendment 38.
Amendments 2 and 16 are designed to support the much-needed provisions in section 141. They would have the effect of bringing those provisions into effect three months after the bill receives royal assent. I lodged them because of my experience of amending the bill that became the 2006 act. The Government has still not brought the amended provisions into force; indeed, they will not be brought into force until August 2011. That was why I learned the lessons of the past and am not allowing the Government to wait too long before it brings in much-needed provisions.
I reiterate my support for the work that the minister has done on this point. That is why I am sorry that he is seeking to remove the provisions to another bill; they are needed without delay.
I also reiterate my support for the need for houses of multiple occupation, particularly in my area of Glasgow Kelvin. However, I am also concerned that, in such areas, 70 to 80 per cent of some streets have houses of multiple occupation in excess of planning provisions limiting HMOs to 10 per cent and 5 per cent in other parts of Glasgow. It is ludicrous that the licensing committee can grant a licence to a landlord who complies with the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, even though he might be in breach of planning policy. Last month, the Scottish reporter refused permission for an HMO, but the landlord had been granted a licence. The HMO licensing regime needs to be matched up with planning policy. It would be a matter for local authorities, not national guidance, and they would have to use their own discretion to allow a licensing committee to refuse an HMO on planning grounds.
I am concerned that the good provisions that the minister seeks to remove might be lost. I am looking for the minister to give as much of a guarantee as he can that, if the provisions are put into another bill, that bill will see the light of day before the end of the current parliamentary session. I do not want there to be any further delay. I hope that the minister can assure us that the bill will at least be in the queue to receive royal assent by then.
The amendments in the name of the minister are the most disappointing part of today’s deliberations. It is difficult to understand how a Government, with all its resources, can introduce a bill and then, at stage 3, try to remove some of its most important sections. For people such as those to whom Pauline McNeill has just referred, who live in the private rented sector or in HMOs, the sections that we are talking about are important. If the Government was not ready, it should have not included them in the bill. More important, the Government should have been ready and we should have had a comprehensive public and private sector housing bill when the bill was introduced.
Let us be clear. The committee’s stage 1 report did not say that the sections should be removed. If anyone has told the minister that, he should go away and look at the stage 1 report again. The report criticised the Government for not getting its act together and putting the provisions for the public and private sectors into one bill.
The Government has now introduced the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill, as the minister said. At this stage, however, my biggest worry is that the minister will not get that bill right either, and there will be no time to introduce the necessary measures. However, the problem that members have today is that, although it is unsatisfactory to take the sections in question out of the bill, we cannot support them as they stand; they are unamended and incomplete. For that reason, Labour members will abstain on the amendments. We will concentrate on making the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill fit for purpose and I hope that, on this occasion, the minister will do the same.
I am not sure that I entirely agree with Mary Mulligan. I accept what she says about the history of the matter, but there is a lot of logic in doing what we can to have the private sector housing provisions in one bill and the public sector provisions in another. That has been the tradition since the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 and the Housing Act 1988. The reason for that is that people should be able to find the legislation when they are looking for it.
On the substance of the amendments, I share the concerns about the removal of section 141 on the HMO licensing regime. I would like to ask the minister not just about the completion of the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill during this parliamentary session but about the timescale that he anticipates for the implementation of the changes to the HMOs. That is the crucial point today, rather than which bill they are in.
The matter has long been outstanding. Like Pauline McNeill, I have had representations on it from local campaigners in the west end of Glasgow since almost the beginning of my time in Parliament. They make an extremely valid point, which the Government has recognised in introducing the sections about the interrelation between the planning regime and the licensing regime. The pre-existing situation has caused uncertainty and confusion with regard to policy on the matter.
If the minister can reassure us on the timescales, I am prepared—as I think other members are—to accept the logic of what he is trying to do. If he cannot reassure us, we have a bit of an issue, because the timescale for implementation is important. There is an on-going issue with regard to the way in which HMO regulation operates and, while we understand that that aspect is difficult, we want legislative action on it in this session, and we want an assurance from the minister on when that legislation will come into effect once it is passed.
I add my concerns to those of my colleagues on timescales. Will the minister confirm that he will proceed with the statutory instrument on party flats? In his answer to my parliamentary question yesterday, he said that he still intended to take the matter forward. In the light of the fact that he is dropping the private rented sector elements from this bill, will he assure Parliament that he still intends to proceed with the statutory instrument? When is that likely to be introduced to the Parliament for scrutiny?
It seems rather odd that Mary Mulligan is confused about these amendments this afternoon. I strongly recollect that it was Labour’s flipping on the amendments that persuaded the Government to keep them in after all. Moving the sections to the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill is legislatively the right thing to do, and we will support that this afternoon.
I will deal first with Sarah Boyack’s specific question on the order in relation to party flats. We are bringing that forward, and I anticipate that it will be implemented early in 2011. We are committed to progressing that legislation, as I have agreed with Sarah Boyack in the past.
I have had numerous discussions with Pauline McNeill and others, such as Ted Brocklebank, on the legislation on HMOs. Like those members, I am anxious to ensure that we get it right, and that the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill is passed before the end of the current parliamentary session in March 2011.
The bill has already reached stage 1 in committee, which I anticipate will be completed some time in January, with a view to holding stage 2 proceedings in February and stage 3 in March. I take Pauline McNeill’s point about the timetable for the implementation of part 5 of the 2006 act. The order in that regard has already been approved by Parliament and the implementation date for that part of the legislation has been approved as August 2011. We will shortly consult on the implementation of the order that has been agreed by the Parliament.
I hope that I have reassured all members who have spoken on these amendments. In response to Mary Mulligan’s comments, I point out that I had an informal meeting with the committee, which gave me the clear message that it wanted the measures to be consolidated in one bill. Only Labour members appeared to dissent from that view. I certainly interpreted from the correspondence that I received from the committee that it required such an approach.
However, that is now history; it is water under the bridge. The important thing is that we consolidate the private sector measures in the Private Rented Housing (Scotland) Bill, and complete the process for this bill on the public sector. As Robert Brown said, there is a tradition of dealing with such matters in that way, and it is the sensible way to proceed.
15:30
The question is, that amendment 38 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 80, Against 0, Abstentions 43.
Amendment 38 agreed to.
Section 133—Appointment of agents: fees
Amendment 39 moved—[Alex Neil].
The question is, that amendment 39 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer, some of the voting consoles are not working.
I am happy to run the vote again, though I suspect it will make little difference. I ask the clerk to clear the voting machines.
The question is, that amendment 39 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 80, Against 0, Abstentions 43.
Amendment 39 agreed to.
Section 134—Access to register: additional information
Amendment 40 moved—[Alex Neil].
The question is, that amendment 40 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 80, Against 0, Abstentions 42.
Amendment 40 agreed to.
Section 135—Penalty for acting as unregistered landlord etc
Amendment 41 moved—[Alex Neil].
The question is, that amendment 41 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 80, Against 0, Abstentions 43.
Amendment 41 agreed to.
Section 136—Power to obtain information
Amendment 42 moved—[Alex Neil].
The question is, that amendment 42 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 80, Against 0, Abstentions 43.
Amendment 42 agreed to.
Section 141—Amendment of HMO licensing regime
Amendment 43 moved—[Alex Neil].
The question is, that amendment 43 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 81, Against 0, Abstentions 41.
Amendment 43 agreed to.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My console indicated that the vote was on amendment 44.
Members: It also did on mine.
Surprising though it may be, I am not responsible for what appears on the console screens, but I announced clearly that the vote was on amendment 43 and I cannot change what happened. I also think that members will not think it worth while to rerun the vote.
Section 142C—Scottish secure tenancy: rent arrears pre-action requirements
Amendment 44, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 11 to 13.
The Scottish Court Service requested a slight technical amendment to section 142C to make it more precise on the stage at which a social landlord should confirm to the court that it has complied with the pre-action requirements for eviction. The amendment clarifies that eviction proceedings may not be raised until the landlord has confirmed to the court in such form as the Scottish ministers may prescribe by regulations that pre-action requirements have been met. At stage 2, the committee agreed to a Government amendment to introduce pre-action requirements.
Order. Too many conversations are going on. Members should have their conversations outside the chamber.
I turn to amendments 11 to 13. I sympathise with what Margo MacDonald is trying to achieve. She is trying to provide maximum protection for tenants who face eviction for rent arrears, but I fear that her amendments could, in practice, make matters worse and not better for tenants. The Government has consulted the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations and the Scottish Court Service on the possibility of introducing provisions along the lines of Margo MacDonald’s amendments. They all raised concerns that such provisions would result in more cases going to court.
The amendments seek to give tenants enormous scope to dispute with their landlord whether pre-action requirements have been met correctly. That would be a diversion from the purpose of the pre-action requirements, which require meaningful dialogue before an action is ever raised. It would be a bad outcome for tenants and would lead to a negative outcome in terms of the level of rent arrears. It would also be a bad outcome for landlords who would be denied reasonable discretion and would face additional legal costs at a time when we want them to direct all their scarce resources to providing more and better housing for tenants. The proposed provision would also be bad for the courts. It would add pressure to already busy court programmes. Those are well founded and significant concerns. We must heed them.
The provisions in the bill on pre-action requirements were carefully drafted to provide a subjective test for landlords when considering tenants’ proposals on steps being taken to reduce rent arrears. Their purpose is to avoid delaying tactics by tenants, which would make matters worse for them, and to prevent potentially large numbers of disputes about compliance from impacting on the courts.
I ask members to consider the significant tenant protections that are already in the bill. For instance, subsection (5) of proposed new section 14A of the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001 will require a landlord to make reasonable efforts to agree a plan for reduction of rent arrears before an action is raised. A test of reasonableness in rent arrears cases is already applied in each case by sheriffs when they consider whether eviction action is appropriate.
Before the existing provisions for pre-action requirements commence, we will work closely with all key stakeholders to develop the secondary legislation and guidance. That will specify further and, where appropriate, the particular steps to be taken, or not to be taken, by a landlord in complying with any requirement, and will therefore further strengthen protection for tenants.
In view of that and the risks for tenants, landlords and the courts that Margo MacDonald’s amendments 11, 12 and 13 would cause, I invite her not to move the amendments, and ask members to support amendment 44.
I move amendment 44.
At the outset, I should say that I greatly appreciate the general policy thrust of the bill. That is why I find it a bit puzzling that there should be such a constraint on the rights of tenants in respect of the equality that they should enjoy with their landlord, whether it is a social landlord or not.
The minister’s final few remarks give rise to an obvious reason why my amendments should be agreed to: he said that secondary legislation would spell out what is required on equity and reasonableness. Why on earth are there expressions in the bill such as
“in the opinion of the landlord”
and “acceptable to the landlord”? There is unilateral decision making in the bill, but according to the minister the secondary legislation is likely to be much more equitable. If I can have an explanation of that and how it would work, and the words that will appear in the secondary legislation, which are just as decisive as the words in the bill, I may consider not moving my amendments. However, I think that the bill is tilted in favour of the landlord, and I do not see why it needs to be.
I understand why Margo MacDonald lodged amendments 11, 12 and 13. They could be seen as the next step along the path that the bill is travelling on, which is to give tenants protection against eviction. However, that step is unnecessary.
In its briefing to members, the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland made the point that, at some stage, a landlord has to come to a view on whether to take action or not to take action. That is correct. Ultimately, that view will be tested in court.
Section 142C sets a series of steps that a social landlord must take before they start legal action against a tenant for rent arrears. That brings us legislation that is similar to that which protects home owners—I refer to the Home Owner and Debtor Protection (Scotland) Act 2010. I welcome and support section 142C, but cannot support Margo MacDonald’s amendments.
It is a fact that no protection is given to tenants that is similar to the protection that is given to home owners under the legislation that Mary Mulligan mentioned, and in which there is no unilateral decision making. The minister said that “meaningful dialogue” between tenant and landlord is needed before a decision is taken to apply to the court. That seems to be equitable to me, and such an approach is taken in the legislation that affects home owners who are unable to pay mortgages.
I accept what Margo MacDonald says, but discussion between the landlord and the tenant is needed, and they need to try to arrive at a solution to the problem.
However, at some stage, the landlord will have to decide whether the matter is resolvable and might therefore seek to take it to the court, which will then take a view on it. Section 142C is similar to the provision on pre-action requirements in the Home Owner and Debtor Protection (Scotland) Act 2010—although the two deal with different situations—and therefore we have gone far enough. Amendments 11 to 13 are unnecessary, but I will support amendment 44.
15:45
I understand where Margo MacDonald is coming from, but she has to take the issue in the context of the whole of section 142C, which has been drafted to ensure a proper balance between the rights and responsibilities of landlords and those of tenants. As I said, my main concern about amendments 11 to 13 is about the possibility of unintended consequences, which could damage the interests of the tenant as much as they could damage the interests of the landlord. We could end up with far more disputes, and far more disputes going to court, which would not be in anybody’s interest. I therefore invite Margo MacDonald not to move her amendments.
The question is, that amendment 44 be agreed to.
Amendment 44 agreed to.
Amendment 11 moved—[Margo MacDonald].
The question is, that amendment 11 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 118, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 11 disagreed to.
Amendment 12 moved—[Margo MacDonald].
The question is, that amendment 12 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 118, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 12 disagreed to.
Amendment 13 moved—[Margo MacDonald].
The question is, that amendment 13 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 118, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 13 disagreed to.
Section 143B—Duty to assess and provide housing support needs of persons who are homeless or threatened with homelessness
We come to group 11, which is on housing support for persons who are homeless or threatened with homelessness. Amendment 55, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 14 and 15.
The Government retains a firm commitment to the provision of good-quality housing support for homeless households. That is a key component in preventing homelessness and in meeting the target of ensuring that all unintentionally homeless households have the right to settled accommodation by 2012.
I gave my qualified support to Mary Mulligan’s amendment at stage 2, but I was mindful that both Mary Mulligan and Jim Tolson spoke of the importance of a cost-benefit analysis of the impact of the amendment on local authorities. Jim Tolson, in particular, raised concerns about the cost implications for local authorities. That is why I indicated my support for amendments 14 and 15 after they had been lodged. However, following consultation of key stakeholders, in particular Shelter, I have brought forward an alternative, which is amendment 55. It will give ministers the power to make regulations about the assessment of housing support needs and the provision of housing support services. Shelter has urged all members to unite behind amendment 55 on a consensual basis.
Amendment 55 also requires ministers to consult bodies that represent local authorities, bodies that represent the interests of homeless persons and other appropriate persons. The regulations will be laid before Parliament for scrutiny and approval.
I believe that amendment 55 offers a constructive way to ensure that homeless people are well supported, while acknowledging concerns about the possible cost implications for local authorities and the support needs of other vulnerable groups. The amendment provides the opportunity for stakeholders to work together in a flexible and collaborative way. I believe that it is prudent to take time to ensure that we develop regulations that achieve the desired outcome, which is high-quality housing support services for homeless people who need them.
It is important to note that not all homeless households will need housing support, because for some the answer to homelessness is the provision of settled accommodation. I am firmly of the view that partnership working is the way to deliver on the 2012 target and the prevention of homelessness. We will develop the regulations with stakeholders in that spirit of partnership.
Amendment 55 represents a constructive way to make progress on an important issue. I look forward to hearing what Jim Tolson and others have to say on the balance that we are aiming to strike with amendment 55, and I hope that the whole Parliament can support it. I ask Jim Tolson not to move amendments 14 and 15 and I urge Parliament to support amendment 55.
I move amendment 55.
The minister will recall—I point this out for the information of Parliament—that both he and I raised concerns at stage 2 about the cost of the proposals that Mary Mulligan put forward on behalf of Shelter. The estimated cost was £40 million and we had to find out whether that figure was accurate. With some reluctance I supported her amendment in order to give us the opportunity to find more information and to challenge Shelter, COSLA and others to produce evidence. I am pleased to say that since that time a significant amount of information has been teased out of those organisations. The projected cost of bringing forward this much-needed support for our homeless people has come down to about £10 million. Although that is not an insignificant sum, it is significantly smaller than the £40 million that I mentioned.
After stage 2 I lodged amendments 14 and 15, the purpose of which was to ascertain exactly how much money the new duty would cost. My serious concerns have now largely been allayed and, having listened carefully to what the minister has said, the Liberal Democrats have looked at his amendment 55 and I believe that it gives a statutory basis on which to provide specific support to the people who most need it—Scotland’s homeless. I will therefore not move amendments 14 and 15 and we will support the Government’s amendment 55.
There has been much misinformation about the amendment that I lodged at stage 2 on an assessment of homeless people to see what support services they might need. Let me be clear: my intention was to ensure that when homeless people are allocated a home, they are given the support services that are necessary to ensure that they are able to maintain that home. Those support services would be wide-ranging, from help with budgeting to support with drug and alcohol problems, and would help not only the homeless individual or family but neighbours and the community.
It is just not true to say that my stage 2 amendment would cause resources to be taken away from other vulnerable groups, that it would jeopardise the achievement of the 2012 homelessness target or that it would lead to legal challenges and huge court costs. The Scottish Government clearly agrees with me, and not with such scaremongering, given that it has lodged amendment 55.
Before I talk about amendment 55, I will comment on amendments 14 and 15. Jim Tolson is correct that where there is a cost it would be remiss of us as MSPs just to wave an amendment through. However, at stage 2, we had the opportunity to discuss the issue in more detail. In fact, the terms of my stage 2 amendment have been doing the rounds in housing spheres for some time, so any suggestion that it was suddenly sprung on members out of the blue is slightly misleading. However, I am glad that Jim Tolson has now been persuaded that the principle of the amendment that I moved at stage 2 is the right thing to do and is affordable.
I turn to the minister’s amendment 55. I do not understand why he felt the need to lodge an amendment so late in the day, unless it was that he was left high and dry by Jim Tolson’s press release that said that Mr Tolson would not move his amendments 14 and 15. I ask the minister to clarify a few points on amendment 55. First, it sets out that regulations, rather than guidance, would be required to direct local authorities’ implementation of the duty in relation to housing support. We consider that using regulations rather than guidance will present problems and is unnecessary. The minister might wish to comment on that.
I understand that amendment 55 will cover all homeless people who are unintentionally homeless and in priority need, except those who are in temporary accommodation and who are awaiting a decision. We would like assurances that people in temporary accommodation will be covered by the duty.
I ask the minister to confirm that the duty will also extend to those who are threatened with homelessness where appropriate support might avoid the need for rehousing them.
Finally, when will the provisions in this part of the bill commence?
I still believe, as members might expect, that my stage 2 amendment provided the best way forward. However, in the interests of unity and, more important, of achieving the necessary assessment of homeless people’s support needs, Labour members will support amendment 55.
I just want to make a couple of points. On the role of stage 2 and the role of the minister, I have to say that I find it absolutely bizarre that, given that the minister thought that there might be significant issues with the cost of Mary Mulligan’s stage 2 amendment, not only did he not ask members not to vote for it, he encouraged others, including SNP members, to vote for it. That does not make sense to me, because the critical voice to which we have to listen at stage 2 is that of the minister, who will have information and advice that other members will not have. If the minister had concerns about cost, he ought at that stage to have urged the Local Government and Communities Committee not to support the amendment and to ask Mary Mulligan to withdraw it so that the issue could have been debated further later. If that had happened, we would not have got into the pickle that we are in now, whereby—
I am sorry, Ms Lamont, but there is too far too much talking going on in the chamber.
Unfortunately, I was talking and now you have put me off.
That is a bit unusual for you.
Too much talking and not enough thinking. I apologise.
The point that I was making was that the committee might have been minded to support something that was ill advised, but stage 2 is the time when people step back if the minister says that there is an issue. It is not clear why the minister was not properly briefed about the implications of Mary Mulligan’s amendment at stage 2, given that he later expressed concerns about it.
16:00
My last point is on the substance of amendment 55. The minister is right to say that all that some people require is a house. The assessment stage’s purpose is to identify people for whom simply being given a tenancy is insufficient. Too often, people who are allocated a tenancy on the basis of their homelessness fail that tenancy, fail another tenancy and fail another tenancy. The people who are left to address that problem are housing providers. A challenge must be made to other organisations and agencies that should be supporting individuals to assess not just people’s housing need but their capacity to sustain a tenancy. The debate captures that. In that spirit, we will support the minister’s amendment. However, we should recognise that critical issues could have been sorted out earlier.
When the whole Parliament unites in consensus, up comes Johann Lamont to destroy it in a oner. It is obvious from her comments—anyone could guess—that she was not at the committee meeting at which the stage 2 amendment 180 was discussed. Her view is at odds with reality. Had she been interested enough in the subject, she could have been at that meeting.
I will answer Mary Mulligan’s points. The regulations will give strong and clear guidance on what needs to be done and when, in order to ensure the highest-quality housing support. We will consult Parliament, the committee and key external stakeholders on the regulations. Subject to that consultation, the regulations will be commenced at the earliest possible opportunity.
We are all on the same page. The only debate was about whether the provisions should be in the bill and, if so, what the bill should say. The need for a good-quality housing support service that meets a minimum standard for homeless people throughout Scotland has never been disputed.
If amendment 55 is agreed to, we will move forward in the spirit in which we have reached agreement with Shelter and in the spirit of the unanimity that I hope has been shown in the chamber. We will move forward as quickly as possible, because we want to ensure that homeless people have the rights and the services to which they are properly entitled.
Amendment 55 agreed to.
Amendment 14 not moved.
After section 143B
Amendment 15 not moved.
Section 151—Commencement
Amendment 2 moved—[Pauline McNeill].
The question is, that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O'Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 79, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 2 disagreed to.
Amendment 16 moved—[Pauline McNeill].
The question is, that amendment 16 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kerr, Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O’Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Swinney, John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 80, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 16 disagreed to.
That ends consideration of amendments.