Plenary, 03 Nov 2005

Meeting date: Thursday, November 3, 2005

Official Report 741KB pdf

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Question Time

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SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

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Enterprise, Lifelong Learning and Transport

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Transport (West-central Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are being taken to reduce congestion and air pollution and to develop better transport links in and to west-central Scotland. (S2O-7955)

We are supporting local authorities, Strathclyde Passenger Transport and the west of Scotland transport partnership on a number of transport projects in west-central Scotland. We are also establishing a new west of Scotland regional transport partnership with responsibility for developing a west of Scotland regional transport strategy that will deliver sustainable economic development. In their regional strategies, RTPs will have to consider measures to tackle congestion and reduce air pollution in their areas.

Is the minister aware of evidence that shows that the most immediate way of reducing congestion and air pollution is to scrap the Erskine bridge tolls? Is he also aware of evidence that shows that scrapping the tolls would mean that fewer lorries would use the Clyde tunnel or go through the streets of Clydebank in my constituency?

Mr McNulty has asked a number of parliamentary questions on the matter, and I certainly accept his arguments about air pollution and congestion. As he knows, phase 1 of the toll bridges review found that, as far as congestion is concerned, the relationship between different traffic flows is complex; however, it also suggested that air quality issues could be addressed in formulating an approach to the matter. The toll bridges review is on-going and I hope to report on the matter before too long.

As the minister is aware, I have consistently held the view that removing the Erskine bridge tolls will ease congestion. However, we must set that measure in the context of wider improvements in the road network. Does he therefore agree that, in addition to the Erskine bridge, another investment priority should be the A82, which is of course the gateway to Scotland's first national park?

I accept Jackie Baillie's remarks on the position that she has taken on the Erskine bridge and I acknowledge the views that she and many other members hold on the A82. It is an important and strategic road link and we must consider—and are considering—carefully the issues surrounding that particular roads project. I will be happy in due course to draw members' attention to the progress that we are making.

Given the chronic air pollution problem in some parts of the country, notably Glasgow city centre, and given that in a few months Glaswegians will have to step into a pub to get a breath of fresh air, does the minister acknowledge that, without tackling the rising traffic levels that are the overwhelming source of air pollution in Glasgow, we will not improve air quality? When will the Executive's targets on reducing road traffic levels start to bear fruit?

I would welcome a considered and reasoned debate from the Greens on the importance of tackling traffic growth and the measures that should be introduced in that respect. However, on no occasion have they given the devolved Government any credit for its quantum leap in public transport investment. I am sure that Mr Harvie will raise his points again and again in his members' business debate on the subject tonight.

I compliment the Scottish Executive on its intention to drive ahead with the M74 extension. Does the minister agree that that is a principal way of reducing air pollution, particularly in Glasgow? Moreover, does he accept as evidence of that the beneficial effects that came from building the M77 to link the A8 and the A77?

It is certainly a novel experience for me to be praised by Mr Gallie, but I am none the worse for it. The arguments that he has made are relevant to the roads project that he mentioned, and I would be happy to consider his specific suggestions in relation to the other strategic road link. In assessment of roads projects, we consider—as any Government should—specific issues relating to air quality, and those matters have been carefully considered in relation to the project that he described.

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M74 (Construction Jobs)

To ask the Scottish Executive how many jobs the M74 public inquiry reporter considered would be created by the construction of the M74. (S2O-7963)

We estimate that up to 25,000 jobs could be created in the area. Of those, the reporter suggested that 5,000 jobs might be new to Scotland.

I would be willing to praise the minister for his public transport initiatives if he did not take daft decisions such as approving the M74. He has made it clear that only 5,000 new jobs will be brought to Scotland by the M74. It will cost between £375 million and £500 million, which results in a figure of between £75,000 and £100,000 per job. Last year, Scottish Enterprise Glasgow managed to create 4,000 just—

Mr Ballard, you are making a speech. Please ask a question.

Can the minister explain why the M74 is value for money in terms of job creation, if it costs £100,000 a job for the M74 and £2,000 for Scottish Enterprise Glasgow?

That is the way to do it. Thank you.

I shall do my best to hold to your standards in answering the question, Presiding Officer, although it took a while to get to that question.

Mr Ballard is not for the first time wrong on a number of points. First, in relation to jobs, he should know if he has looked into the matter—I shall be fair and assume that he has—that two separate studies were carried out by Scottish Enterprise. The reporter came to the view that there would be 5,000 new jobs for Scotland. I am bound to say that there is a disagreement with the reporter, who took the view that subtracting figures from one study, where the two reports used different methodologies, produced the figure that has been given. It is important to stress the difference in approach.

For any roads project, or any capital public transport project, the value-for-money exercise relates not only to economic matters but to a range of matters under the Scottish transport appraisal guidance. Again, I would have thought that Mr Ballard would be familiar with that.

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A76 Route Action Plan

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it plans to implement the A76 route action plan. (S2O-7959)

All the road safety and route accident reduction plan measures in the plan have been implemented, as have the traffic calming and traffic management measures in various communities along the route. The provision of overtaking opportunity schemes is being developed.

The minister will be aware that my colleague, Councillor Jim Dempster, recently wrote to him with suggestions for improvements after there were two fatal accidents within a week. Is he aware that, although the original route action plan was drawn up about 10 years ago, many sections of the road remain dangerous and have above-average accident statistics, including the section from the Dumfries bypass to Auldgirth in my constituency? Will he address my concerns and those of other MSPs regarding the safety of that road, which are shared by Dumfries and Galloway Council and East Ayrshire Council? Will he revisit the question of what action needs to be taken to prevent further fatalities?

I understand the concerns about the issue that have been expressed by Elaine Murray and other members, in relation to both the route accident reduction plan and the measures that have been put in place, and I acknowledge the understandable and fair requests for additional measures, particularly in the light of traffic accident fatalities and accident statistics. If additional information on those matters is presented to the transport department, I would be happy to examine those issues again, and I give Parliament that assurance today.

I am genuinely grateful to Dr Murray for raising the issue of a route that virtually bounds our two constituencies, and I want to discover her secret for getting picked to ask questions.

The minister may be aware—I hope that he is—that one of the deaths that tragically took place between Sanquhar and Kirkconnel was on a stretch that would have been upgraded by now had one scheme not been withdrawn by the Scottish Executive in favour of a less complicated and less expensive one to the south of Sanquhar. Given that there have been three deaths on that stretch of road over the past five years, is the minister prepared to prioritise that improvement? I suggest that he consider seriously the Conservative policy of having a black-spot fund, so that where deaths regularly and tragically occur, a degree of prioritisation can be achieved.

I will be happy to consider the various issues that Mr Fergusson has raised, particularly the points about the section of road that he describes and the action that was taken in relation to the other package, which was considered previously. I will consider again whether we would wish to analyse the action in the context of the accident statistics, which are serious and must be addressed. I am always happy to look at Conservative plans and we will also continue to consider a few others.

I re-emphasise some of the points that Alex Fergusson made. It is particularly galling and tragic for constituents when a set of bends is identified as dangerous and the Executive accepts that something must be done but then changes its mind and does nothing so more deaths occur. This is not a case, as so often happens, of members asking for the A whatever-it-is in their constituency to be improved. In this case lives are being lost regularly and will go on being lost until the Executive does something.

That was a statement rather than a question. Does the minister have anything to add?

I can also do statements, but I had better not.

Those are serious matters and I take very seriously the concerns that have been expressed by Mr Morgan, Mr Fergusson and Dr Murray. I will look into the issues that all three members have raised and see whether I can take the matter forward.

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Electricity Generation

To ask the Scottish Executive what its policies are in respect of the future of the electricity generation industry. (S2O-7940)

Policy on the electricity generation industry is generally reserved to the United Kingdom Government and is subject to the commercial decisions of the industry and the regulatory framework that is put in place at UK level.

The Scottish Executive and its agencies continue to work closely with the UK Government and the energy companies to ensure that an appropriate balance is struck between our economic development objectives, our targets for growth of renewables generation and climate change and ensuring security of supply.

Excellent. Now that the Prime Minister has called for an assessment of all options, including civil nuclear power, to meet our future energy needs without emitting greenhouse gases, and since our First Minister has said that we must keep energy options open, can we have an assurance that the Executive intends to maintain Scotland's share of the British electricity generation industry, particularly when the UK Government makes necessary decisions about a national repository for nuclear waste? Notwithstanding Ayrshire's ambition to get Scotland's next nuclear power station, can I restate East Lothian's claim for it to be located on the site that has already been earmarked for Torness B?

There are quite a few questions in there—I will try to address them all.

The Prime Minister is correct, as is our First Minister. He was restating the UK Government's position that the Government must, in order to ensure security of supply, consider all options. We have always been supportive of an energy mix that meets our renewables targets as well as our carbon emissions targets and, crucially, which also ensures security of supply. I want Scotland to remain a net exporter of energy rather than to become an importer of energy. Four major power stations are due to come off supply in the next 10 to 20 years. If that picture does not change, Scotland will become a net importer rather than a net exporter of electricity, which is something that we should avoid.

On the last question, Governments do not build power stations and neither does the Scottish Executive. Those are commercial matters and it is for the generation companies to make proposals, which would have to be considered in that context.

I would like to turn the minister's attention to other electricity generation and away from the love-in that he is having with his friend who has another nuclear power station in his backyard.

The minister was able to answer two questions from the previous member, so will he tell me, first, when the interconnector between the Western Isles and the mainland will be agreed and set up and secondly, when the decisions about the applications from AMEC Wind Energy and Beinn Mhor Power Ltd will be made, so that people in the islands can know that they can share in Scotland's security of energy supply?

I dispute the contention that Mr Home Robertson and I have been engaged in a "love-in". John Home Robertson and I, and indeed many other colleagues, have always been supportive of an energy mix that meets our renewables targets, addresses issues of carbon emissions and ensures security of supply. That means that we must consider all sources. On the question of upgrading the grid and the particular issues that Rob Gibson raises on island connections, those are primarily matters for the grid companies and electricity-generating companies in the first instance and, latterly, for the Executive.

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Beauly to Denny Power Line

To ask the Scottish Executive what factors it will take into account in determining whether a public inquiry will be held into the planning application by Scottish and Southern Energy plc for the 400kV Beauly to Denny power line. (S2O-7969)

If a relevant planning authority objects to an application, and if its concerns cannot be met by modifications or conditions, the Scottish ministers will refer the application to a public inquiry. Alternatively, the Scottish ministers have the discretion to refer the matter to a public inquiry if they consider it appropriate to do so after consideration of any objections and other material considerations.

I am grateful to the minister for that comprehensive response. He should be aware of widespread concern in Perthshire and Stirling about the size of the new power line and about the visual intrusion that it would present in an area that is highly dependent on tourism for its income. He should also be aware of the specific concerns about the routing of the line and its proximity to dwellings and communities such as Crieff. Does he agree that, in order to allow a proper airing of all those issues, it is essential that a public inquiry be held into the planning application?

The applicants submitted their formal application only on 27 September. There is a statutory obligation on them to advertise for two successive weeks in one or more locally circulated newspapers in the areas through which the proposed line will pass. It will pass through four local authority areas and, in the present case, the relevant notices have been placed. Consultations have been published, and the public are invited to make representations—that includes Murdo Fraser's good self. Those representations will be considered by 12 December. In that context, and in the context of my previous reply, it would be inappropriate for me to pre-empt the consultation and to say that the proposals should or should not go to public inquiry.

As the minister must know, many members have received a great deal of correspondence on the issue. Some concerns have been taken on board by SSE, but some have not. In advance of any potential public inquiry, will the minister advise us about any communication that has taken place between his office and SSE regarding the possibilities for undergrounding at least some of the more environmentally sensitive sections of the proposed line?

The important point is that Scotland needs an upgrade in its electricity transmission and distribution network, a point that was made by Roseanna Cunningham's colleague, Rob Gibson, just a few minutes ago. We wish not simply to achieve our renewables targets but to ensure that there is benefit from an upgraded grid.

The undergrounding of all or part of the proposed line will be considered as part of the appraisal of the application, to which I referred. It is important to mention that there are significantly higher costs involved in running cables underground or via subsea links, to which Rob Gibson referred. The costs involved in that would be passed on to consumers, so there is a balance to be struck. I was being pressed by the Conservative party this morning to reduce electricity prices. This afternoon, it is being suggested that I do otherwise.

I am aware of the concerns, all of which will be considered as part of the appraisal process, as is required of the local authorities that are involved. The authorities will be in touch with the applicants in that regard.

As the minister will know, a great number of letters of objection were sent to the energy consents unit prior to the 28 September submission date. That was because of confusion over information that was given on the Scottish and Southern Energy website. Given that the issue is important, will the minister clarify as soon as possible whether those letters will be sent back by the consents unit if they are asked for, whether they can now be resubmitted and whether standard letters dated prior to 28 September can also be submitted?

Yes. I will clarify that for the member this afternoon.

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Justice and Law Officers

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Torture

To ask the Scottish Executive whether the police are taking sufficient action to ensure that no offences of attempting or conspiring to commit torture are being committed in Scotland or Scottish airspace. (S2O-7967)

As I have said in the chamber before, attempts to commit or to conspire to commit torture are crimes under Scots law and are punishable by up to life imprisonment. The police in Scotland take appropriate action to investigate cases whenever there is evidence to support allegations of torture.

The minister is aware of press reports of the use of Scottish airports, certainly in the central belt and possibly in the Highlands, for Criminal Intelligence Agency rendition flights taking prisoners to countries in which they can be tortured. Is she aware that two weeks ago my colleague Chris Ballance wrote to the chief constable of Strathclyde police to alert him to our concerns and to request a meeting to detail them? So far, the chief constable's office has failed to offer that meeting and the press office confirmed this morning that no investigation of the flights is under way or planned and that it is considering the legal implications of our request.

Does the minister agree that there are more than reasonable grounds for suspicion that criminal acts are being committed in our jurisdiction and that the police should uphold their legal duty to investigate without regard to any political embarrassment that might be caused?

Again, as I have made clear in the chamber before, if information is provided to the police it is their responsibility to assess it and decide what action to take. They will, of course, consider whether there is evidence to warrant further investigation. I am aware that the member's colleague wrote to the chief constable of Strathclyde police; it is for him to respond appropriately.

This might not be a devolved matter; the issue is not legal or political, but moral. People like the minister and me—ordinary people—who have not been tried before any court are being transported through Scottish airspace. Will the minister give an assurance that she will intervene in this moral issue? Will she speak to her colleagues at Westminster to stop such people being sent to be tortured?

The member is correct that this is not a devolved matter; it is for the United Kingdom Government to consider the appropriate legislation. I refer the member to recent exchanges in the House of Commons, where the UK Minister of State in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has answered, fairly comprehensively, questions about the current legal position and stated that it is not the Government's policy to deport or extradite any person to another state where there are substantial grounds to believe that they will be subject to torture or where there is a real risk that the death penalty will be applied. The UK Government takes the issue seriously.

Question 2 is withdrawn.

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Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Act 2004

To ask the Scottish Executive what monitoring it has carried out of the implementation of the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Act 2004 since its enactment one year ago. (S2O-7931)

There are three main strands to our monitoring regime. Statistics on the use of antisocial behaviour measures under the act are collected on a six-monthly basis. Community planning partnerships report annually on the implementation of their antisocial behaviour outcome agreements and strategies. In addition, all 32 local authority antisocial behaviour teams have been visited as part of a Scottish Executive audit process.

Will the minister join me in welcoming the success that we have had in Edinburgh? As a result of joint work under the act between the City of Edinburgh Council, the police and local residents, we have been successful in achieving our first closure order, which means that a private household has been closed. It had been used for drug dealing and there had been behaviour that was abusive and threatening to local residents. The order sent out a clear message to residents in the city that antisocial behaviour will not be tolerated and that where there is evidence the law will back up their rights. I welcome strongly the fact that the minister is monitoring the act, because we have a lot more to do to ensure that everybody knows about the powers and how they can help communities.

The City of Edinburgh Council has been imaginative and diligent in the application of the legislation. What the council is doing is right—it is listening to communities and ensuring that local agencies work together and are increasingly aware, as are others, of the significance of the legislation. It is good to see the act being used in Edinburgh to help communities to improve the quality of their lives.

I hope that others consider what Edinburgh is doing. I am heartened by the fact that the community is becoming increasingly aware of the potential uses of the legislation. I look forward to further successes in Edinburgh.

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Debt Relief (Working Group)

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making in implementing the recommendations from the report of the working group on debt relief. (S2O-7928)

The working group reported back to my officials in June 2005 and we are considering the recommendations in the light of our wider programme of reform in this area.

The minister is aware that the working group identified a category of people who have no income or assets and are, therefore, not covered by the existing debt arrangement scheme. Will he therefore urgently commission research to scope the size of that group? Will he encourage his colleagues in the Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning Department to use the forthcoming bill on bankruptcy and diligence to plug that gap and help the poorest people in our community who are in debt?

I am aware that there is some concern about our ability to identify how many people are within that category. Clearly, we need to address that. We need to ensure that any legislation that we enact or action that we take helps the people whom we intend to help. We will continue to consider the problem closely. I am sure that my colleague Allan Wilson, who will take the bill through Parliament, will consider whether anything needs to be done. Outwith the scope of legislation, I think that there are other important factors that need to be carefully considered.

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Serious Crime (DNA Samples)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will legislate to retain DNA samples as a means of helping to solve crimes of a serious nature. (S2O-7950)

A consultation on whether the police should retain all the DNA samples that they take from suspects ended last month and the Executive is considering possible options. We want to ensure that the police have the tools that they need to fight crime effectively and that sufficient safeguards are in place to satisfy any civil liberty concerns.

I am sure that the minister is aware of the recent tragic case involving the murder of a Glasgow pensioner, which was solved by obtaining a DNA sample that was held on file. Following the consultation process, will we be able to hold on file such DNA samples to enable more murders and other serious crimes to be solved?

I am, of course, aware of the case that Mr McAveety raises. The individual in question was subsequently sentenced to 16 years' imprisonment. In another case, involving a French exchange student who was raped in Glasgow, the attacker was identified from a sample that had been left on her clothes. Mr McAveety might be interested to know that, in less serious situations, DNA spit kits, which are used by bus drivers in Glasgow, have led to the conviction of two people for spitting at bus company employees.

There are serious civil liberties issues relating to this matter. However, we must give proper consideration to whether we could solve more crimes by using such measures.

The minister's comments about civil liberties notwithstanding, will she give careful consideration to the ability of an individual effectively to seek review of any information that is held on them? Further, will she assure me that any proposals for change should include the opportunity for accountability to this Parliament in relation to the proper use of such information that is held by the police? We need to move away from a culture of police policing the police.

Jeremy Purvis raises some interesting points, which we will consider during any further discussions. Of course, the will of the Parliament will decide whether we can successfully legislate on this matter.

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Drink and Drug Driving<br />(Ross, Cromarty and Skye)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is aware of increased incidence of driving when unfit through drink or drugs in Ross, Cromarty and Skye. (S2O-7947)

I am aware of concerns about an increase of such incidents in Ross, Cromarty and Skye. In 2003, there were 199 convictions for drink-driving and drug-driving offences in Ross, Cromarty and Skye, which was the highest total for five years. However, in the Highland Council area as a whole, a total of 676 drink-driving and drug-driving offences were recorded by the police in 2004-05, which represented the lowest figure since 2000-01.

Of course, I share the concerns of police forces across Scotland about the incidence of drink driving and drug driving.

Is the Executive aware that those drink drivers are middle aged rather than young and that the drinking is done not in pubs and licensed premises but in people's houses? Will the Executive examine how it can better target middle-aged drink drivers and whether alcohol awareness programmes are available to them?

Maureen Macmillan makes an interesting point. She will be aware that research that was published by the Executive in 2004 found that 34 per cent of the people who had been surveyed had driven within a few hours of having a drink and that 18 per cent had driven when they thought that they were over the drink-drive limit. That is a serious situation. The research suggested that young male drivers were the key group who were at risk. However, I would be interested to examine further Maureen Macmillan's concerns.

People must take responsibility for their own actions. The Executive can educate people and raise public awareness of drink driving but, at the end of the day, individuals can and should take responsibility for not driving when they are under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

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Sex Offenders

To ask the Scottish Executive when it will implement the recommendations of Professor Irving's report "Registering the Risk: Review of Notification Requirements, Risk Assessment and Risk Management of Sex Offenders". (S2O-7948)

The Executive has accepted the vast majority of Professor Irving's 36 recommendations and is working to legislate for some of them in the Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill next year. A significant number of the recommendations relate to police operational activity and we will work closely with the police to take them forward.

Volumes of evidence have been produced on the issue and a number of review groups have been established. It is time for the Parliament to show leadership and to implement the volumes of recommendations that have been made. I appreciate that the issue is evolving, but I ask the minister once and for all to implement the recommendations and to legislate as a matter of urgency to ensure that we maximise the protection of adults and young people who are at risk from sex offenders.

I place on record my thanks to Paul Martin, who has taken great interest in the issue and has campaigned tirelessly to ensure that we improve how we protect our children from the potential problem of having sex offenders in their midst. I assure him that we will move forward with the recommendations. Where it is possible to legislate and move ahead quickly, we will do so. However, a number of the recommendations require us to do further work to ensure that they will be workable in practice. The work that requires to be done will be undertaken. I will, of course, report to Parliament and the member in due course.

Does the minister agree that taking a measured response to very sensitive issues is one aspect of leadership? There could hardly be a more sensitive issue than the recommendations in the report. This afternoon, the Parliament may pass a bill that will set up community justice authorities. Will she ensure that the co-ordination of some of the recommendations, in particular the notification of third parties, is part of the authorities' remit?

Again, Jeremy Purvis makes a good point. Of course we must take a balanced view, but I am on record as having said a number of times—I repeat it today—that we have a responsibility to take whatever measures we can to ensure that children are protected. The Parliament has a good record of legislating and improving policy in the area. I hope that we will take steps this afternoon to set up community justice authorities, as the member pointed out. If the Management of Offenders etc (Scotland) Bill is passed, as I hope that it will be, the authorities will have a key role to play in the management of all offenders, including sex offenders. Further work will have to be done to ensure that the requirement to notify third parties is applied appropriately.

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Drugs Courts

To ask the Scottish Executive whether there are any plans to roll out drugs courts across Scotland. (S2O-7905)

The final evaluation report on the two drugs court pilots was received earlier this year. I am considering the contents of the report and I will announce shortly our plans for the future of the drugs courts.

The minister is aware that the early results from the programme were positive. I ask for any rolling out of the courts to be done as quickly as possible.

We need to consider several factors carefully. Generally, we need to consider the value of rolling out drugs courts throughout Scotland. If we decide to do that, we need to consider whether to concentrate on the main urban centres. However, we must consider the issue in the context of the widespread use in Scotland of drug treatment and testing orders, which offer a type of drugs-court lite in many courts. We must also consider whether to progress along the path of creating specialist courts in Scotland on a range of issues. Whatever decision we make, we want to ensure that the positive lessons from the drugs courts and other pilots that we have introduced are learned and applied in courts throughout Scotland. The investment and effort that have been put into those initiatives will be pointless if the lessons are not applied widely.

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Sex Offenders

To ask the Scottish Executive how the proposed limited disclosure of information on sex offenders to members of the public will operate. (S2O-7906)

It is proposed that if sex offenders wilfully ignore the instructions of the police in their choice of accommodation, employment or other activities, the police will give warning that information regarding the sex offender could be shared with relevant third parties.

Will the minister give an assurance that serious consideration will be given to the burden that will be placed on individuals to whom such information is disclosed? People will be given information that they have not sought, that they are unlikely to be trained to evaluate and that they may find difficult to deal with and contain.

I am happy to give an assurance that we will give serious consideration to how the measure will work in practice. However, the responsibility to ensure that children in our communities are safe does not rest simply on the police, individual social workers and politicians. Many agencies that are involved in the issue will welcome the opportunity for further information sharing that we intend to put in place. Of course, the use of the measure will have to be considered in particular circumstances and we will ensure that that is done appropriately.

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Prisoners (Automatic Early Release)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will implement chapter 1 of part III of the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997, on prisoners' early release, in light of the First Minister's commitment to end the automatic early release of prisoners. (S2O-7900)

No. Those provisions were repealed by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.

That is disappointing. Is the minister aware that the only opposition at Westminster to the automatic early release provisions came from Conservative MPs? Does she agree that Mr McConnell's earlier hard words on four-year and one-year sentences for knife crime diminish somewhat when one realises that he was really talking about two years and six months? Is it not time that the Executive changed its mind on the matter?

I appreciate that it is some time since Mr Gallie has been in Westminster. I recall his comments and his support for various initiatives when he was there. We did not agree with him then and we perhaps will not agree now. It is important for Mr Gallie and others to recognise that we are undertaking a root-and-branch reform of our criminal justice system. We have made it clear that we want an end to automatic early release. I am sure that Mr Gallie did not read the Labour Party manifesto in the run-up to the 2003 elections but, if he had, he would have seen that commitment contained therein.