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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 25 Nov 1999

Meeting date: Thursday, November 25, 1999


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE


Prime Minister (Meetings)

1. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail what specific matters of mutual interest were discussed at the last meeting between the First Minister and the Prime Minister and what specific matters will be discussed at the next meeting. (S1O-690) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I hope that the member will not think that I am being difficult if I say that the details of those discussions are private.

Dennis Canavan:

Will the First Minister congratulate the Prime Minister and his wife on the forthcoming addition to their family? Does he agree that all children should be born with equal rights, whether they are the children of the most powerful person in the land or the one in three of Scotland's children who live in poverty? Why should it take as long as 20 years to eradicate child poverty, which means that many children born in Scotland today will be condemned to suffer poverty during their entire childhood?

The First Minister:

I am happy to hear Dennis Canavan congratulating Tony Blair on something and I join him in expressing pleasure at the recent news. On his specific point, he would be the first to appreciate that long-term social trends are reversed usually over a fairly lengthy period. It is dishonest of politicians to say that they can snap their fingers and, in one or two years, change a deeply rooted social situation. If he considers what is happening in terms of, for example, the biggest ever increase in child benefit or the efforts that are being made to raise standards in primary education and pre-school nursery facilities, he will see that a substantial amount is being done. The publication that we debated yesterday sets out a very adequate and important programme, which I am sure will have his full support.


Teachers

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans are in place to promote continuing professional development of teachers working in remote and sparsely populated rural areas of Scotland. (S1O-727) The Deputy Minister for Children and

All teachers should have access to continuing professional development. The framework that we announced recently will take account of the requirements of the more remote areas of Scotland.

Mr Rumbles:

I congratulate the Executive on its forward-looking approach to the continuing professional development of teachers, but does the minister recognise the considerable expertise in that field of Northern College in Aberdeen, especially in relation to teachers in rural areas, which is, after all, where 60 per cent of Scotland's schools are located? Does he recognise that Northern College already provides one of the most comprehensive portfolios of continuing teacher development packages in Scotland?

Peter Peacock:

As a consumer of its services when I lived on the Orkney islands, I am happy to acknowledge the role that Northern College has played. We want continuing professional development to play an expanded role. We expect many providers to take part in that, and Mr Rumbles can be assured that the particular needs of rural areas in Scotland will be part of our approach in ensuring that the delivery of continuing professional development is carried out on a decentralised basis.


Listed Buildings

3. Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive what powers it has to ensure that publicly funded organisations maintain category A and B listed buildings and structures within their ownership. (S1O-669) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): There is no statutory requirement on owners to keep buildings— whether listed or not—in good repair. However, planning authorities and—in exceptional circumstances—Scottish ministers have powers to take action when buildings have deteriorated to the point where there is real concern for their future.

Marilyn Livingstone:

Can I ask about the case of an historic structure in my constituency—the A- frame and headgear at the Frances colliery in Dysart? What can be done to ensure that sufficient resources are allocated to guarantee its future after a planning application by the Coal Authority to demolish it was turned down by the council?

I am not in a position to comment at this stage, other than to say that the historic buildings inspectorate is working closely with Fife Council to deal with some of the applications relating to the Frances colliery.


Agricultural Business Improvement Scheme

4. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to reimburse farmers and crofters for the costs incurred in presenting their applications to the agricultural business improvement scheme. (S1O-709) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Where works are approved and carried out by the department, grant assistance is available for planning consent and professional fees. However, there is no provision under the terms of the scheme to assist with those costs if the applications are not approved.

Mr Stone:

Although I welcome the minister's efforts to sort out this bùrach—to use a good Gaelic word—does he agree that a partial solution would be to redirect some of the £24 million European transitional funding? Will he make representations to Her Majesty's Treasury for support, in the light of the chancellor's recently announced budget surplus?

Ross Finnie:

In seeking a solution to this vexed question, I am happy to examine that suggestion, although I must give a word of caution about how that proposition relates to the statement of funding policy that was agreed between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government. The new agricultural development measures that have been incorporated into the draft Highlands and Islands structural funds programme, which will include a scheme not dissimilar to ABIS, might offer another part of the solution.


Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill

5. Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to ensure that the findings of the Millan committee are taken account of during the passage of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. (S1O-672) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The Executive has already received advice from the Millan committee about nonmedical matters in the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, and in due course will wish to consider carefully any advice from the committee about the health care matters that are covered in part 5 of the bill, or indeed about the interrelationship between mental health and incapacity legislation.

Mrs Ewing:

The minister and I share concerns about this bill and want to ensure that the process is concluded in a way that is acceptable to everyone. Given the importance of both the legislation and the Millan committee, can we be assured that the Executive will not tie that legislation into such a tight time scale that there will be no interplay between the Millan committee and those of us who are interested in the legislation?

Iain Gray:

I have tried to indicate that that interplay and communication has already taken place. We have made it clear that, in the longer term, following the debate and legislation, we will amend the adults with incapacity legislation to take account of the conclusions of the Millan committee if that is required. I assure Mrs Ewing that the hope and intention is to modernise legislation on incapacity without delay, while allowing a proper re-examination of mental health legislation through the Millan committee. We must get both those things right.

Surely we do not want to have to go back to amend this important piece of legislation. We should be aiming to get it correct in the first instance.

Iain Gray:

I appreciate that sentiment but, two weeks after this Parliament was constituted, a conference was held by the alliance for incapable adults, as it then was. I recall seeing in the media a woman at that conference weeping because of the problems that she had in caring for her husband, who was suffering the early onset of dementia; the closure of their bank account meant that she had no access to their resources. We believe that the adults with incapacity legislation cannot wait. People have waited for it since 1994 and we do not want to hold it up any longer. We want to ensure that the Millan committee will impact on adults with incapacity without making people wait any longer.


Peterhead Prison

To ask the Scottish Executive what criteria were applied to the mothballing of the special unit at Peterhead prison. (S1O-725)

The Scottish Prison Service took into account several matters, the most important of which were the operational impact of closure, the cost per prisoner place and the flexibility of the establishment.

Brian Adam:

Given that the announcement about changes to the prison system was made on 21 October, can the minister tell us when the Scottish Prison Service first knew of the proposals and why the staff representatives were not contacted earlier to help manage those changes?

Mr Wallace:

Back in the spring of this year, staff representatives were given forewarning that there would be some changes, although specific changes were not discussed. Following the decisions taken on 21 October, I understand— these are operational matters for the SPS—that

efforts were made to advise staff at the earliest possible opportunity. After the board took the final decisions, the staff were informed at the earliest opportunity.

The concern is that the staff were informed after the decision was taken. That did not allow for any meaningful consultation.

Mr Wallace:

I met representatives of the SPS trade union side, including the Scottish Prison Officers Association, earlier this month. At that meeting, a willingness to co-operate and hold discussions with the SPS was indicated. Indeed, I think that that was taken forward. I want to make it clear that, although there were discussions, the decisions were based on the report that was given to the board by Mr Duffy, and were not the responsibility of the trade union side.


Perth and Kinross Council

7. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received from and what meetings it has had with Perth and Kinross Council regarding ensuring that its budget is in line with guideline figures next financial year. (S1O722) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): I met the leader of Perth and Kinross Council on 28 June. At that meeting, I asked the council to submit an action plan outlining how it would return to guideline next year. I received that information just before the end of July.

Mr Raffan:

Is the minister aware that Perth and Kinross Council will have to make savings of between £10 million and £12 million to spend at, or below, guideline in the next financial year? Will he acknowledge that although, like Aberdeenshire, Perth and Kinross Council faces particular service pressures owing to population growth, the grant- aided expenditure assessment is based on population figures that are two years old?

Mr McConnell:

The guideline figures for next year have not yet been published, but it is almost certain that next year's guideline figure for Perth and Kinross Council will be higher than its actual budget—never mind the guideline figure—for this year. To suggest that cuts of that magnitude are required is false. It is entirely appropriate that the council carries out the commitment that it gave me in June that it could have been on guideline this year if it had known that the figures would be applied within 1 per cent.

Will the minister agree to meet councillors and officers from Perth and Kinross Council at the earliest opportunity to discuss those matters further?

Yes.


Housing

8. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in its programme of tackling dampness in Scotland's housing stock. (S1O-715) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): We will be spending £38 million over the next three years to provide insulation packages for more than 75,000 homes. In line with our social inclusion agenda, we will concentrate on the elderly and others on low incomes. Together with the investment that we are putting into new housing partnerships and through the housing revenue account, that should result in a substantial reduction in the number of Scottish houses that suffer from dampness.

Fiona Hyslop:

Will the minister confirm that the healthy homes initiative was one of the few things that the Liberal Democrats brought to the partnership agreement? Will he confirm what the Minister for Communities said in the written evidence that she gave the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee? She said that the warm deal money was to tackle dampness, but he has said that it is available only for insulation. His minister is close to the Liberal Democrats, but will he confirm that the healthy homes initiative does not actually exist and that he has sold them a pig in a poke?

Mr McAveety:

The SNP's vision of Scottish housing is a pigpen. It is good to see that the member is concerned about the Liberal Democrats, given that she has spent the past six or seven months attacking our coalition partners on the issue of delivering for Scotland.

Through a combination of new housing partnerships and the warm deal, together with the fact that we—uniquely in the United Kingdom— have included a training element in the warm deal, our partnership commitment is to ensure that we deliver decent housing for the people of Scotland. We believe that we are on the way to delivering that.


Enterprise Policy

To ask the Scottish Executive what consultation it had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on enterprise policy proposals in advance of the publication of the pre-budget statement. (S1O676)

The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen):

The Scottish Executive has regular contact with the Treasury on issues relating to enterprise policy. We will be discussing the details of a number of new proposals with the Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry to ensure that any proposals

of potential UK-wide application can be developed to reflect the particular needs of Scottish business.

On that very point, will the minister assure Parliament that Scotland will receive a Barnett formula share of the new national high- tech venture capital fund that the chancellor has announced? If we will not, why not?

Nicol Stephen:

As Mr Swinney knows, those issues were discussed in the debate last week, after which I wrote to him and other spokespeople. The new high-tech venture capital fund will apply right across the UK, as will several of the other initiatives that Gordon Brown announced. In some areas, we in Scotland will have separate schemes. The advantage of that is that we get the best of both worlds: we get the opportunity to adapt schemes to our own circumstances, as we should where separate initiatives are required for the particular interests of Scottish companies and the Scottish economy.

Mr Swinney:

The point that I am trying to get at is this: will the Scottish Executive be able to guarantee that Scotland gets its fair share of the venture capital funds? Would it not be better if our enterprise agencies were given the ability to determine the allocation of money to projects— based on the needs of Scottish companies and Scottish industry—so that they did not have to depend on the Executive's efforts to negotiate on our behalf in Westminster?

Nicol Stephen:

As Mr Swinney knows, in some instances the announcements reflect initiatives that are already taking place in Scotland, and therefore indicate areas in which the UK is catching up with what is being done in Scotland. We are, of course, determined that Scotland should receive its fair share of UK funds. Part of the discussions to which I referred will be to ensure that that happens.


Student Loans

11. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Executive what delays have occurred processing student loan applications this year, and whether it will hold a public inquiry into the Student Loans Company. (S1O-691) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The Student Loans Company has a target of dealing with applications under the old-style loans scheme within 21 days. The target under the new student support scheme is tighter—17 days. The vast majority of students who applied correctly and on time will have received their cheques at the start of their courses.

There are no plans for an inquiry into the Student Loans Company.

Mr Welsh:

Is the minister aware of problems over the payment date for loans and—for those on short-term contracts who wish to reinstate their loan—of problems over a helpline that is sometimes less than helpful? Will he undertake to look into those matters to improve the service for the students involved?

Nicol Stephen:

I am aware that there are problems in individual cases; if they are drawn to my attention, I will certainly investigate them.

The figures that I have show that, by 25 November, the Student Awards Agency had received 114,177 applications, of which 113,373— more than 99 per cent—had been processed or otherwise actioned. The indications are that the Student Loans Company has authorised for payment more than 99 per cent of the processed loan applications that it has received. However, a full audited report will be passed to ministers at the end of the first academic term.


Business Rates

To ask the Scottish Executive whether the current review of business rates will address the particular concerns of small businesses. (S1O-731)

The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell):

Yes. We are currently considering whether a rates relief scheme for small businesses is necessary and affordable. I have also issued a consultation paper on proposals for a transitional relief scheme that will help businesses—in particular, small businesses—to cope with any increases that might follow the non-domestic rates revaluation in 2000. The consultation period ends tomorrow and I expect to announce decisions before Christmas.

Elaine Thomson:

Will the minister further allay the fears of Scottish businesses in the north-east and elsewhere by guaranteeing that the uniform business rate will continue and that there will be a level playing field for business rates in Scotland and England?

I am determined that, whatever the outcome of the individual revaluations across Scotland and England, the level playing field that has existed between equivalent businesses across the UK will continue.


Housing Debt

To ask the Scottish Executive what the current level is of housing debt owed by Glasgow City Council. (S1O-711) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): At 31 March 1999, Glasgow City Council's housing debt was £878 million.

Ms White:

Although the debt seems to differ according to different papers, I accept the minister's answer. Will she confirm that, if the housing stock transfer goes ahead, the debt will be written off? If so, why cannot that debt be written off now to enable the stock to remain under council control and to prevent what is effectively privatisation by the back door? Will she also confirm that the amount that new housing trusts will borrow will be the same as the current level of debt and that no more money will be released for housing from stock transfer?

Ms Alexander:

I really do not know how often we have to reassert that it cannot be privatisation when, under every proposal under consideration, all the houses in Glasgow will go to non-profitdistributing landlords. To allege that that is privatisation is just a dishonest slur.

If the debt assistance was transferred to the public sector and the stock remained within the public sector, the sector would have to meet not only the debt servicing costs but all the investment costs of modernising the stock in that city. We should take the opportunity to bring new investment into council housing, which for too long has been the poor relation in Scottish housing.


Consumer Strategy White Paper

To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has made to Her Majesty's Government on the consumer strategy white paper and its potential impact on Scotland. (S1O726)

The Scottish Executive has provided detailed comments to the Department of Trade and Industry on the consumer strategy white paper, setting out a range of initiatives that should benefit consumers in Scotland and extend their rights.

Allan Wilson:

Given the intention to increase consumer rights, how does the Executive intend to help people who are denied rights to seek redress? In particular, are there any plans to extend the in-court advice pilot in Edinburgh sheriff court to Kilmarnock sheriff court, which refuses to allow lay advocates to represent the socially excluded? Those people have neither the resources nor the social skills necessary to seek redress through the small claims procedure, but they are the most vulnerable to and require the greatest protection from consumer cons.

Nicol Stephen:

Ministers are well aware of the success of the in-court advice project at Edinburgh sheriff court. Although we are considering the creation of such advice projects in other sheriff courts, or groups of courts, we are not in a position to make an announcement today. However, I hope that my answer emphasises our recognition of the importance of giving consumers new rights and the ability to exercise those rights.

I am certain that the Minister for Justice will be interested in receiving additional information from Mr Wilson about the situation in Kilmarnock sheriff court.


Teacher Training

15. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):

To ask the Scottish Executive how many people have entered, and successfully completed, teacher training courses over the past 10 years. (S1O-721) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Over the past 10 years, there have been about 11,250 entrants to pre-service primary teacher training and about 12,080 entrants to pre-service secondary teacher training. Over the same period, there have been about 8,580 graduates from pre-service primary teacher training courses and about 10,130 graduates from pre-service secondary teacher training courses.

Why are a number of schools in some parts of Scotland—including Bathgate Academy in my constituency—having great difficulty in getting supply teachers?

Peter Peacock:

Although there is generally no shortage of teachers across Scotland, particular areas of Scotland face difficulties in supply provision from time to time. We recognise that; the issue is now a priority for a working group. The Executive's recent recruitment campaign to attract new entrants into teaching has been highly successful, with more than 2,800 inquiries from possible entrants. That is much more than in recent years and is a very encouraging trend.

With reference to the campaign to encourage people into training, will the minister give an assurance that there are sufficient places in training establishments to ensure that people can be taken on?

The Executive and the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council are in constant discussions about the number of training places. Any cap on higher education places will not impact on that group of people.


Rail Safety

To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with Railtrack regarding safety at railway level crossings in Scotland. (S1O689)

Earlier this month, Sarah Boyack received a detailed briefing from Railtrack on rail safety in Scotland. During that meeting, Railtrack outlined plans for introducing a range of safety measures at level crossings.

Michael Russell:

I thank the minister for his answer and express my gratitude for his versatility, as he represents a constituency that has no railway level crossings and, indeed, no railways.

Are he and Sarah Boyack aware of the railway level crossing at Stevenston in Ayrshire, which is closed 114 times a day for a total of nine hours a day? It is causing such frustration to residents that, unfortunately, many of them are trying to cross the track, despite the fact that there is no footbridge. That is a railway disaster waiting to happen, in which Railtrack shows no interest. Will the minister consult Railtrack and try to persuade it to use some of its profits to help the community of Stevenston?

Mr Morrison:

I remind Mike Russell that the western isles once had a railway system—in the 1920s—courtesy of Lord Leverhulme.

Irene Oldfather has contacted the Executive about this issue, so we are well aware of it. Sarah Boyack receives regular briefings from Railtrack and I see no reason why she should not raise the issue with it.


Non-domestic Rates

To ask the Scottish Executive what impact the revaluation of non-domestic rates will have on small businesses in East Renfrewshire. (S1O-717)

The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell):

The impact on individual businesses of this year's revaluation will depend on valuations still to be determined. However, in the interests of Scottish businesses, I reiterate that the decisions we make in the coming weeks will be governed by two principles: first, that the national level playing field in Scotland shall remain; and, secondly, that the level playing field between Scotland and England shall also remain.

Mr Macintosh:

Is the minister aware that businesses in my constituency want above all to be able to plan for the future with some certainty about the economic climate in which they operate? Is he aware that businesses greatly appreciate the unprecedented economic stability delivered by the partnership between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government? There is, however, concern about the revaluation of non-domestic rates. Will he assure me that, following revaluation, the Scottish Executive will continue to ensure that small businesses in my Eastwood constituency and across Scotland will be able to plan in confidence and on a par with businesses in the rest of the country?

As I said, I can absolutely guarantee that the level playing field will remain and that businesses in Eastwood will be treated in exactly the same way as businesses in Basildon.


Drugs Budget

18. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to ensure that the NHS drugs budget for 1999-2000 is adequate to cover the increasing costs of "patient packs". (S1O-712) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The 1999-2000 unified allocations to health boards included £610 million in respect of general practice and dental prescribing. That sum is considered adequate to meet current projected costs.

Is the minister satisfied that the patient pack is appropriate in every situation? Given the added problems with generic drugs, will increasing costs lead to the rationing of drug prescriptions?

Susan Deacon:

The Executive is always concerned to ensure that patients receive the best and most appropriate information. We also comply with the relevant European directive. We believe that it is important that decisions about drugs and other treatments are right and are considered openly. That is why I am pleased this week to have announced the establishment of the Scottish health technology assessment centre, which will take forward work in that area.


Fire Regulations

19. Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to review the advice to be given on the Fire Precautions (Workplace) Regulations 1997 (SI 1997/1840) as amended. (S1O-733) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Guidance for employers was published in July. Guidance for fire authorities will be circulated shortly. That guidance will be reviewed in the light of experience.

Euan Robson:

How many businesses in Scotland are aware of those regulations, let alone understand them? Does the minister appreciate the view of some fire safety professionals that the booklets and information available after the original regulations were published were inadequate and unsatisfactory?

Angus MacKay:

The booklets on fire safety guidance for employers that were published on 22 July were made available to the Stationery Office and contained extremely comprehensive advice to employers. I am aware, however, of some concerns about this, and I will undertake to examine them and report back to Euan Robson.