Planning etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Resumed debate.
We resume consideration of the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill.
Section 28—Assessment of planning authority's performance or decision making
Group 24 is on the publication of assessment reports. Amendment 16, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 17.
Amendments 16 and 17 will require the publication of the formal documents for which the proposed statutory assessment regime provides. In amendment 17, it is made clear that publication can be in electronic form. Amendments 16 and 17 pick up points that were made during the discussion on an amendment that Christine Grahame lodged at stage 2.
We accept that although it was always our expectation that such reports would be published, there is merit in a statutory requirement for proactive publication. We support measures to improve both the transparency of planning processes and the accountability of people who have a key role in making the system work better. I commend the amendments to the Parliament.
I move amendment 16.
I thank the minister. These are the first and, I suspect, the last amendments on which I will win today.
Amendment 16 agreed to.
Amendment 17 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
Section 29—Fees and charges
Group 25 is on financial provisions. Amendment 18, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 148.
In section 29, we have included powers to make regulations to provide that a fee or charge may be remitted or refunded by a planning authority. Amendment 18 seeks to clarify the circumstances in which that can take place. It is our intention that when, in the opinion of Scottish ministers or someone who has been appointed by them—which, in practice, will mean the inquiry reporters unit—a planning authority has either behaved unreasonably or caused unreasonable delay, part or all of the fee or charge that was paid by the applicant should be refunded. We hope that that will act as an incentive to planning authorities and provide some recompense to people who are inconvenienced by such events. I ask members to accept amendment 18.
Amendment 148 seeks to amend the grant-making powers in the bill so that ministers shall have due regard to the independence and impartiality of the bodies that provide planning advice and assistance. The same amendment was lodged at stage 2, when it was debated by the committee and defeated.
We recognise the importance of communities having access to independent, impartial advice—that is the basis on which we fund planning aid for Scotland. However, we know that there may be circumstances in which ministers would wish to fund organisations that would not necessarily be independent or impartial. For example, the recent Executive-funded Friends of the Earth project provided advice and advocacy support to community groups and individuals to get involved in the planning process, which included support and advice on specific applications and public local inquiries. Although there are no plans to fund a similar project at the moment, agreement to amendment 148 could restrict ministers' ability to assist such advocacy projects in the future.
The grant provision in the bill is intended to provide the flexibility that we require to fund a range of activities related to the support and improvement of the planning service, such as training for planners, e-planning and mediation; it is not just about providing direct support for communities. It is important to retain that flexibility and I am concerned that agreement to amendment 148 could lead to a situation in which we could not fund activities such as training or advocacy through the planning system. I therefore recommend that members reject amendment 148.
I move amendment 18.
I am grateful to the minister for giving such an extensive series of reasons why amendment 148 is not helpful. There would be cause for concern if grant assistance were to be provided to groups that were demonstrably attached to particular campaigns or which have particular political—with a small p—ambitions. However, I note the minister's point about the need for flexibility and I appreciate his point about the involvement of Friends of the Earth in a particular advice scheme. Given those assurances, I will not move amendment 148.
Amendment 18 agreed to.
Section 30—Grants for advice and assistance
Amendment 148 not moved.
Section 33—Additional contributions and action
Group 26 is on business improvement districts. Amendment 149, in the name of David McLetchie, is grouped with amendments 150, 34, 35, 151, 36, 89, 89A, 90 and 159.
All over Scotland, businesses large and small are actively engaged with local communities and councils in improving localities within our cities, towns and villages to make them more attractive places in which to shop, work, rest and play. Such projects focus on, for instance, improving the streetscape by creating pedestrian areas with seats and benches, floral displays and information points and on preventing crime and promoting public safety through devices such as closed-circuit television. Those initiatives and partnerships are all welcome and to be commended.
The fact that such partnerships are to be found all around Scotland as we speak demonstrates that the Parliament need not pass new laws to enable such projects to be undertaken where there is support for them from the local business community. The projects are voluntary initiatives to which businesses contribute financially and to which many business owners, large and small, have made a strong personal commitment. The only reason for the existence of part 9 is that the Executive wants to create business improvement districts that are financed through a compulsory levy, which will be an additional tax on Scotland's businesses, which already contribute more than £2 billion in business rates towards the provision of local services and amenities.
How would Mr McLetchie respond to the businesspeople of Bathgate, who are more than willing to contribute to such funds because they recognise the benefits that they will bring?
If those businesses are happy to contribute on the basis of compulsion, they must be happy to contribute voluntarily. Why does the member not go round their doors and ask them to get their cheque books out, put their contributions in the fund and get on with the job? Businesses can do that today. We do not need to pass any laws requiring businesses to contribute to such funds.
The purpose of amendment 149 is to remove the element of compulsion. Payment of a BID levy should be voluntary rather than compulsory. That is what amendment 149 is designed to achieve.
Amendment 150, which is also in my name, is designed to underpin the principle of freedom of contract in the negotiation of commercial leases in Scotland. The Scottish Executive wants property owners to pay a share of any BID levy that is raised. That is not the case in England. The Executive is guilty of a fundamental failure to understand how the commercial property market works in the United Kingdom as a whole. The foundation of that market is the full repairing and insuring lease whereby, in order to generate a pure investment return for investors, obligations such as a BID levy normally fall on tenants under the terms of the contract into which they voluntarily enter.
The Executive needs to tell us whether it intends to introduce subordinate legislation to prevent landlords from passing on to tenants their share of a BID levy, either specifically or in the form of an increased service charge, and whether such regulations will apply to existing leases whose terms would have the effect of transferring that responsibility. If that is the Executive's intention, it is wrong and I urge members to support amendment 150. However, if that is not the Executive's intention, it can have no objection to the amendment, which merely asserts the principle of freedom of contract—it would be up to the landlord and tenant to determine where the liability for a BID levy would fall and not for the Executive or anyone else to dictate that to them.
Amendment 151 focuses on the principle of additionality. The Executive has told us constantly that those who pay a BID levy will receive enhanced services and amenities within the BID. Accordingly, it would therefore be wrong for businesses in an adjoining area that is not a BID to receive the same enhanced services and amenities without paying an additional levy on top of their general business rates. One business should not compulsorily have to pay extra for a service that another business two streets away receives for nothing. If businesses pay extra, they should get extra; that is what additionality means. That is what BIDs are supposed to be about, in which case the Executive should assert that principle by supporting amendment 151, which is most reasonable.
I move amendment 149.
Amendment 149 is unnecessary and would undermine BIDs fundamentally. In effect, it would allow businesses to vote yes to a BID but then never make a contribution through the levy. As was explained to the Communities Committee at stage 2, the proposal is misconceived because, under section 33, businesses will decide for themselves whether they want to set up a BID and will then work together for the benefits that it can bring, in consultation and agreement with their council. Mary Mulligan made a good intervention on David McLetchie, who must know that a BID will be set up only if businesses are convinced of the need for it. The policy seeks to empower businesses. Most business organisations support the introduction of BIDs and many of them were represented on the working group that came up with the proposals.
I am aware of reports in some quarters that the BID levy could be as much as 10 per cent of rateable value, but we have made it clear that the levy should usually be no more than 1 per cent of rateable value. Amendment 149 would be bureaucratic, as it would require a written undertaking from every business that was to pay the levy; it would undermine the financial viability of BID proposals, because the number of businesses that would pay would be unknown; and it would be unfair, as some businesses in a BID would subsidise others, after the BID had been properly approved and agreed by businesses in the area. We believe that businesses will benefit from being part of a BID. I repeat that, at the end of the day, businesses will decide on the matter. The majority of business organisations in Scotland, based on experience elsewhere, agree with our view. I therefore ask members to reject amendment 149.
Amendment 150 would place formally in the bill an ability for owners of property to pass on their liability to non-domestic ratepayers, thus ensuring the owner's non-payment of the levy. The bill already allows for owners to be excluded, provided that the BID proposer—and not the Executive, as David McLetchie suggested—considers that to be the best approach for the area. I am satisfied by that approach but not by the restrictive one that David McLetchie proposes.
Will the minister give the Parliament an unequivocal assurance that there will be no circumstances in which one business would pay two levies, first as a tenant and secondly because, under the commercial lease under which they occupy the premises, they are responsible for the owner's BID levy?
As I am not responsible for the policy area, it would be fair if I got a note to give me the answer to that. The proposals are in the bill, but they are the responsibility of the Scottish Executive Finance and Central Services Department and the Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform. I will not give a hasty answer to that without having received advice.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Are you minded to make time for the Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform or his deputy to speak on the issue?
I am afraid that neither of those ministers has pressed their request-to-speak button, but if one of them does so, it would be appropriate for them to speak.
Further to that point of order, Presiding Officer. We are considering stage 3 of a bill, which will no doubt go into law today, so it is important that, when members have questions about it, we have a minister present who can put the answer on record. The Executive's practice is simply not acceptable, so I hope that you will make a ruling on that.
I cannot make a ruling because the point is not about the standing orders. I hear Tricia Marwick's point—other members will doubtless take it into consideration when they decide how to vote on the amendments in the group.
The reason why I said that I would not give a hasty answer is that an answer will be given before the end of this speech. Members must understand that part 9 comes from another department. Obviously, I understand the generality of the policy but, if there is a detailed question to which I do not know the answer, I will seek advice on it. There is nothing unusual about that.
Through the BIDs working group, representatives from the public and private sectors urged us to legislate for owners to be part of BIDs, as did the majority of responses to the public consultation. The bill reduces the risk that owners will benefit from a successful BID project at the expense of occupiers who pay the levy. At stage 2, the committee rejected an amendment with the same outcome as amendment 150, which I ask members to reject as well.
Will the minister acknowledge—or would he like his researchers to establish for him—that the Scottish Executive does not have the power to impose a BID levy on anybody at present and is seeking that power from Her Majesty's Government?
Indeed. We have asked for an order on that under section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998 and it has been granted.
Amendment 34, together with amendments 35 and 36, provides for the allocation of a vote to each property that is liable for non-domestic rates. Those amendments will also allow the allocation of a single vote to each property owner or tenant who is eligible to vote. That voting arrangement best provides for the involvement of property owners and is based on the views of the BIDs working group. It will usually give greater weight to the votes of the more numerous, smaller non-domestic ratepayers participating in part 1 of the ballot, compared with part 2 of the ballot, which weights votes and could be dominated by larger interests of owners and tenants. The result will be a balancing of different voting interests over the first and second parts of a BID ballot.
Amendment 36 acknowledges that voting arrangements for BIDs are not straightforward. We will include in secondary legislation the details of the allocation of votes between non-domestic ratepayers and other owners and tenants who are entitled to vote. Putting those requirements in regulations will allow scope to reflect the variety of permutations of owners, tenants, non-domestic ratepayers and so on in a BID, especially where those persons may be interchangeable or overlap. The level of detail that is required to cover those permutations is not appropriate for primary legislation, and amendment 36 provides for it to be covered in secondary legislation.
I recommend that members accept amendments 34 to 36.
Although I agree that councils should work together with businesses throughout their areas and should not do anything to undermine or cut across existing BID projects, I cannot understand the rationale for amendment 151. I can illustrate the issue by referring to the BID pilot that is taking place in Inverness city centre. If amendment 151 were agreed to, it would prevent Highland Council from undertaking work in another part of its area—for example, in Wick or Thurso, which are more than 100 miles from Inverness—simply because a BID is already doing similar work. Where is the logic in that? As we explained at stage 2, when a virtually identical amendment was rejected, I am open to any amendment to make the bill stronger; amendment 151 does not do that, so I ask that it be rejected.
The Executive will monitor the effectiveness of BID arrangements on behalf of the Scottish ministers. To improve BID arrangements, the Executive may propose to alter the groups that are eligible to vote in the BID ballot; the veto criteria that local authorities will apply to BID proposals; and the allocation of votes between non-domestic ratepayers and owners and tenants. Amendment 90 and amendment 159, which takes account of the Subordinate Legislation Committee's views, make such important changes possible only by regulations under affirmative procedure. Parliament, therefore, will have the opportunity to approve such recommendations and improve the workings of BID arrangements. Related amendments 89 and 89A are consequential on those amendments.
The minister mentioned amendments 90 and 159 in connection with secondary legislation. I have it noted down that the relevant amendments are amendments 89A and 159. I just want to clarify that.
I have it noted down that the related amendments, amendments 89 and 89A, are consequential.
That is fine.
I therefore recommend that amendments 89, 89A, 90 and 159 be accepted.
In response to Fergus Ewing's question, the weighting of the levy depends on the weighting of the vote. It is possible that a person will vote and pay as both a ratepayer and an owner. However, the vote and the burden are weighted accordingly.
Obviously, voluntary schemes whereby businesses contribute towards city centres have played a part in Scottish civic life and will continue to do so, as in Inverness and Bathgate. However, the so-called pilot BID schemes that the Executive has discussed throughout the passage of the bill are not BIDs at all, because businesses pay nothing. They are bungs of public money, designed to win the support of business. That is straightforward.
Let me come directly to the point. The SNP campaigned against the higher business tax that was imposed by the First Minister when he was Minister for Finance, which was called—eponymously and, I thought, rather generously—Jack's tax. Since then, we have had seven years of higher tax in Scotland than in England. Eventually, the Executive recognised that it had got it wrong, and it is scrapping it. It is too late, though—that will not apply until the year after the current Executive has demitted office.
Once we get rid of Jack's tax, we will find it replaced by Lamont's levy, Malcolm's money or Chisholm's cash. The point about BIDs is simple. Whether they want to or not, businesses that have voted against the proposal will have to pay a higher tax. This morning, the First Minister, in full rattled mode, was talking about the perceived impact on business of things that might happen. Is he really saying that those higher taxes on small businesses in Scotland are welcomed by small businesses? They are not welcomed by the Federation of Small Businesses.
Let me move to the revelation from today's debate. The Executive that brought us higher taxation now brings us double taxation. The Minister for Communities has just indicated that nothing in the bill will prevent a business from paying twice. It is very simple—if the First Minister understands commercial life. The tenant will have to pay—because they are the tenant—as is clear under any BID scheme. Anyone who has ever had contact with a commercial lease will know fine well that, in virtually every commercial lease that exists in this country, there is a provision that says that landowners are entitled to pass to tenants liability for any rates, impositions or taxes, whether national or local. What is this if not a local tax? There is a clear and present danger that businesses will have to pay double taxation.
The minister was plainly hit by surprise by my rather simple, modest intervention. He did not appear to notice that it was not my idea—it was in the Local Government and Transport Committee's report, at paragraph 57.
You have one minute left.
Thank you. I can do a lot in a minute, Presiding Officer.
I have already given you three, Mr Ewing. You have a bonus minute, because you are doing so well.
I hope it is always thus.
I will quote from paragraph 57 of the Local Government and Transport Committee's report on the bill at stage 1, which has been out for months. One would expect the minister to have read that parliamentary report—ministers are always going on about how they listen to Parliament. It says:
"There is a question as to whether landlords or property owners who pay a levy will recoup it from their tenants".
However, the minister did not know about that today—sleeping on the job, not noticing it. Malcolm's money is coming to businesses, not once, but twice. That is double taxation. Who says the Executive is fit to run the country if its specialist subjects appear to be poor legislation and shambolic management of the public finances?
I will speak against the amendments in the name of David McLetchie. Similar amendments were lodged and rejected by the committee at stage 2. David McLetchie was right to say that a BID levy would be implemented, but he failed to acknowledge that a levy could be implemented only if local businesses voted for it. I see nothing wrong with local businesses working in partnership with local authorities to improve the districts in which they trade. If businesses did that and wanted to reinvest in their areas, it would be completely wrong if some businesses in those areas enjoyed all the advantages of that but paid nothing for it.
David McLetchie wants us to accept the strange concept that someone can opt out of the result of a decision on which they had a vote. I have never heard a Tory argue that people who did not vote for a national Government should not pay the taxes that that Government imposes. When people vote for something, they must do what is required.
Nobody will vote for a business improvement district unless they believe that they will get something out of it. It is ludicrous to suggest that people would blithely say that they would pay another 1 per cent of rateable value without taking great interest in what they got for that. If BIDs are to succeed, it will be important that all businesses are signed up to them. The way to achieve that is to have a ballot and take it from there.
BIDs offer a tremendous opportunity.
Employment in Dunfermline has just taken two major hits. If a small business there that was starting in its life to try to grow from a small acorn into a large oak tree voted no, would it be right that it still had to pay the BID levy, which might push it over the edge so that it could no longer survive?
Dunfermline is a good example and I am interested in what local businesses there think of the idea. Several local businesses have told me that they are interested in the concept of BIDs, in whether they could contribute to that and in whether they would get something out of it. As I said, no business would vote for a BID levy if it did not think that that would be in its interest.
My answer to Mr Crawford's direct point is that if a business thinks that it will get something out of a BID, it is not unfair to ask it to put something in. The levy will not be a flat rate for all businesses—it will be a percentage of rates, so a small business will pay considerably less than a larger business will. That principle is fair.
The BID proposal is good and is worthy of consideration. An interesting point about the debate is to ask why, if members disagreed with BIDs and thought that introducing them was the wrong thing to do, they did not lodge amendments to remove BIDs from the bill. Such amendments were not lodged; members just want to play at it.
I will add to what David McLetchie said. How much more will we land our businesses with? They pay massive water charges and massive business rates and now we are to ask them to pay for BIDs. The system should be voluntary; as Fergus Ewing said, such a system works perfectly well up north. Also, there is no question but that either the tenant or the owner, but not both, should pay. Finally, as David McLetchie said, businesses that pay extra should get extra.
I will respond to a comment by Scott Barrie. The Scottish National Party has had to lodge an amendment to the motion to pass the bill because it is not competent to amend a purpose of a bill, and one of the bill's purposes is
"to make provision for business improvement districts".
Otherwise, we would have lodged an amendment to delete the provisions on BIDs.
Bristow Muldoon has two minutes.
I will make a brief speech and I will not require the full two minutes.
The position for which the Scottish National Party and the Conservative party have argued would not improve businesses in Scotland but would create a freeloaders charter. It would create a situation in which businesses that were prepared to invest funded improvements in town centres while businesses that declined to put resources into that would benefit without contributing.
I draw attention to the fact that business improvement districts are up and running in the UK—they operate in England. In many town and city centres in England, businesses have willingly voted by substantial majorities to implement business improvement districts. The SNP and the Conservatives are saying that Scottish businesses cannot take a conscious decision about what is in their best interests in the way that English businesses can. They do not trust Scottish businesses to make informed judgments. We should reject the amendments in the name of David McLetchie and the SNP's amendment to the motion on the bill, which we will debate later.
I take strong exception to the minister's comment that amendment 149 is misconceived, because it is far from misconceived; indeed, it was carefully conceived in order to establish the principle of voluntary payment as opposed to the principle of compulsorily extracting funds from people who see no worth or merit in proposals that will affect their locality. I also take strong exception—as I am sure Scotland's businesses will—to what Bristow Muldoon said about freeloaders. Those freeloaders already pay £2 billion a year in Scottish taxes. It is absurd to characterise them in such a way.
Mr Barrie said that things will be all right because people will get to vote. The Scott Barrie concept of democracy is two wolves and a sheep sitting down to decide what is for lunch—it is ridiculous. We cannot create a subset of taxpayers in this country and decide that they should get to vote on whether they should all pay extra money. Taxes are levied by councils and Parliaments that all of us elect. We should not chop up the country, allow one group of people to impose their ideas on others and then allow money to be compulsorily extracted from those people. That is a negation of democracy—it is not democracy at all.
I echo a point that the SNP ably made. It is not true to say, as the minister asserted, that businesses in Scotland support the BID proposals. The Federation of Small Businesses, which is one of the largest business organisations, is wholly opposed to them. Members will know that because it was reasserted only this week in the briefing that they received in advance of the debate.
The Scottish Executive's performance in dealing with amendment 150 was lamentable. It does not have a clue about what the impact will be of imposing a landlord levy and the implications of that for new and existing leases in Scotland. Mr Ewing made that point very well and I am sure that he will do so again now.
Given that the Executive appears to have implicitly admitted that it will be possible for businesses to be levied twice, does Mr McLetchie believe that it is prudent to press amendment 150, as it would assist the Executive in that purpose?
It is prudent to resolve the whole issue and not to undermine the UK's property investment market. I am sure that Mr Ewing knows that undermining that market would have disastrous effects on property investment in this country.
The point that I made about amendment 151, which focuses on the principle of additionality, is that it is fair. We have heard about Highland Council and businesses in Inverness and Wick. The simple question is why a business in Nairn should pay extra for a service that a business in Wick gets for nothing. The amendment would ensure that that does not happen, that there is a level playing field, that if somebody pays extra, they will get extra and that people will not pay more for nothing.
The question is, that amendment 149 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division. I suspend the meeting for five minutes while the division bell is rung.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
We will now proceed with the division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 37, Against 78, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 149 disagreed to.
Amendment 150 moved—[David McLetchie].
The question is, that amendment 150 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 20, Against 71, Abstentions 27.
Amendment 150 disagreed to.
Section 37—Approval in ballot
Amendment 34 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm].
The question is, that amendment 34 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Abstentions
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
The result of the division is: For 112, Against 1, Abstentions 5.
Amendment 34 agreed to.
Section 38—Approval in ballot – alternative conditions
Amendment 35 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
After section 42
Amendment 151 moved—[David McLetchie].
The question is, that amendment 151 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
The result of the division is: For 37, Against 78, Abstentions 2.
Amendment 151 disagreed to.
Section 43—Regulations about ballots
Amendment 36 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
Section 44—Further provision as to regulations under Part 9
Amendment 89 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm].
Amendment 89A moved—[Dr Sylvia Jackson].
The question is, that amendment 89A be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
Abstentions
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
The result of the division is: For 110, Against 1, Abstentions 5.
Amendment 89A agreed to.
The question is, that amendment 89, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
The result of the division is: For 112, Against 0, Abstentions 6.
Amendment 89, as amended, agreed to.
Amendment 90 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
Amendment 159 moved—[Sylvia Jackson]—and agreed to.
Section 46B—Equal opportunities
Group 27 is on equal opportunities. Amendment 152, in the name of Cathy Peattie, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 152 is a probing amendment. Accommodation remains one of the main problems that face Gypsies and Travellers in Scotland. In its 2001 report on the plight of Gypsies and Travellers, the Equal Opportunities Committee made a number of recommendations to the Scottish Executive and local authorities. The committee has reviewed progress since then and, although we are happy that the Executive is looking at our recommendations, we are disappointed by the lack of progress.
Things are no better for Gypsies and Travellers in Scotland. The committee hoped that the Housing (Scotland) Bill would take the accommodation of Gypsies and Travellers on board, but it did not. It is vital that planners have regard to the special needs of Gypsies and Travellers in Scotland. Planning authorities must make suitable provision for sites for Gypsies and Travellers and find ways to meet their needs.
I seek assurances from the minister and ask her to make a commitment to end discrimination and prejudice against Gypsies and Travellers in Scotland.
I move amendment 152.
I appreciate Cathy Peattie's concern and her desire to advance the case of Gypsy Travellers. That is, I hope, something that many of us in the chamber would support. However, at stage 2, an Executive amendment was lodged to place a duty on local authorities to promote equal opportunities. That will ensure that Gypsy Travellers' needs are taken into account in the planning process. In those circumstances, it would be inappropriate to single out Gypsy Travellers and mention them in the bill. To do so would be to the detriment and disadvantage of other minority groups that were not mentioned, such as women and ethnic minorities.
I am not convinced that Gypsy Travellers can be put in the same category as other minority groups, because it is obvious that they are discriminated against in all walks of life, particularly in housing, as has been discussed many times in the chamber and in committees, including during the passage of the Housing (Scotland) Bill.
It is a fact that local authorities often prevaricate about their perceived duties in relation to Gypsy Travellers. I will be interested to hear what the minister says, but in my view it cannot be stated too often that Gypsy Travellers have needs that should be addressed, that we have not addressed those needs for decades and that it should be enshrined in legislation that special treatment should be given.
I am sympathetic to the views that my colleague Cathy Peattie expressed. The picture is patchy across Scotland. In my area, South Lanarkshire, we have a good story to tell, but that is not the case in all areas. Discrimination still takes place, and I am sure that members share my concern about—and would wish to distance themselves from—the comments that were made last week by a Conservative in Edinburgh on the Hearts website.
If the minister does not accept amendment 152, I ask her to say what steps she will take to ensure that local authorities do not discriminate against Gypsy Travellers. In the same vein, I ask her to clarify how she can ensure through guidance that new developments such as shopping centres and hospitals meet the needs of adults with disabilities who do not currently get access to proper toileting facilities or who require bed toilet facilities. I have a number of young constituents who cannot enjoy a full social life because they cannot get access to proper toileting facilities, which others take for granted.
As Karen Whitefield said, the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill was amended at stage 2 to place a duty on Scottish ministers and planning authorities to perform their functions in a manner that would encourage equal opportunities. We cannot dismiss the significance of that step, or the challenge that it presents.
We acknowledge that providing equality of opportunity might mean treating some sectors of society differently from others. We have to understand that Gypsies/Travellers have particular needs.
I acknowledge the commitment of Cathy Peattie and members of the Equal Opportunities Committee, who have highlighted issues relating to Gypsies/Travellers. Our overarching equality duty must address their needs as much it addresses the needs of any other group. I acknowledge the challenge that that will present to planning. However, I do not agree that the situation for Gypsies/Travellers is no better than it was when the Equal Opportunities Committee first considered the issue. Work is going on. An awful lot more remains to be done, but we would end up with a counsel of despair if we did not accept that some progress had been made.
The package of planning reforms that we are implementing will provide greater opportunities for individuals and communities to engage in a more open and accessible planning system. As we discussed at stage 2, we have to understand that it can be difficult for some groups in the community to engage, and, clearly, that is true for Gypsies/Travellers. It will be a challenge for those who develop participation strategies to understand that community engagement is not simply about setting up a meeting in a village hall on a Friday night and then complaining when nobody turns up. Some people have a life and would not necessarily want to go to a meeting at that time. Gypsies/Travellers face particular barriers, and that has to be understood in any participation strategy. We will have to engage with those groups in developing an appropriate strategy.
Guidance to planning authorities on housing makes it clear that local development plans should make provision for Gypsy/traveller sites where a need is demonstrated in the local housing strategy. That strategy will be critical in understanding how to meet the needs of Gypsies/Travellers.
I chaired a strategic group on Gypsies/Travellers and we identified several action points that will have to be addressed. Some of those action points were on housing issues.
Our significant investment in site provision has given us the opportunity to take a more imaginative and creative view of the housing needs of Gypsies/Travellers. I have no doubt that, if we were to falter in that work, members of the Equal Opportunities Committee and other members across the chamber would pursue the issue with us.
Karen Gillon raised an issue that she has highlighted before. In planning policy and advice, we acknowledge the need to make appropriate provision to minimise the impact on disabled people and to give them access to services such as toilet facilities in shopping centres. The whole thrust of the planning package will ensure that, if such services and facilities are not being provided, that will be acknowledged quickly so that future development plans and proposals address those practical issues. That will be critical. The planning system cannot be responsible for absolutely everything, but it will create a context in which such specific needs can be addressed.
I hope that Cathy Peattie will not press amendment 152. The issues in the amendment are clearly in line with the Executive's equal opportunities commitments to engage with Gypsies/Travellers and to understand, through that engagement, how their needs are expressed at the local level so that those needs can be met.
I now invite Cathy Peattie to wind up. I can allow you two minutes.
I will probably not need a full two minutes, Presiding Officer.
I thank the minister for her commitment to ensuring that the strategic working group got together. That group is very important and I look forward to its report.
The minister was right to talk about the way in which people can participate. It is not enough for people to say, "We will look at ways of consulting Gypsies and Travellers," but then not find ways of ensuring that there is real participation.
It is not all doom and gloom; some local authorities do a very good job. However, more and more Gypsies and Travellers are finding it more difficult to find appropriate places to park their caravans.
I welcome the minister's comments. It is important that we monitor the situation. People must not continue to say, "We are doing this work," when they are not actually doing it. Gypsy Travellers should not be able to say, "This is all very well, but life for us is just as difficult as before."
Are you pressing amendment 152?
No.
Do members agree that amendment 152 be withdrawn?
No.
The question is, that amendment 152 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Curran, Frances (West of Scotland) (SSP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 19, Against 68, Abstentions 25.
Amendment 152 disagreed to.
After section 46B
Group 28 is on regulations in connection with inquiries, etc. Amendment 92, in the name of the minister, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 92 will enable regulations to be made under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997 to govern procedures for inquiries, hearings and reviews under that act. In particular, the amendment is intended to enable comprehensive regulations to be made governing the handling by Scottish ministers of appeals and called-in applications.
At present, the procedures for inquiries, hearings and written submissions are governed by different rules and regulations, reflecting the fact that only one type of procedure is normally used in any one case. Through regulations made under the bill's provisions, we intend that ministers should decide the most appropriate procedure for each appeal or call-in, depending on the nature of the material that needs to be examined and the complexity of the issues raised. Oral procedure—whether for a formal inquiry or a more informal hearing process—will normally be reserved for the complex elements of a case in which issues cannot be resolved by consideration of a party's written submissions. In many cases, the procedure will involve a combination of inquiry, hearing and written submissions. It therefore makes sense to have comprehensive regulations that cover all the options. Those who are involved with appeals—whether planning authorities, appellants or the community—will thus have a single reference document setting out their rights in the process and the obligations that they are required to meet. I therefore ask members to support the amendment.
I move amendment 92.
Amendment 92 agreed to.
Group 29 is on promotion of mediation. Amendment 153, in the name of Christine Grahame, is the only amendment in the group.
Several years ago, I attended a mediation conference in Baltimore, Maryland, along with senior members of the legal profession, the Faculty of Advocates, the Scottish Legal Aid Board and the Scottish Consumer Council, to study the operation of mediation in that state across a whole sphere of activity. It was being used not just as we are used to it being used in Scotland—in family law courts and sometimes contracts—but in large commercial contracts, in planning and in neighbourhood disputes. It was used throughout Maryland and was promoted by the leaders in that state. I make it plain that I am that dreadful thing: a convert.
I also make it plain that mediation is not arbitration. The two must not be confused. Arbitration requires a third party to come to a decision—a judgment—that is then imposed on the other parties and is binding. Therefore, in their perception, there is nearly always a winner and a loser, as there is in court judgments. That is not mediation. Mediation involves trained mediators sitting with parties at dispute and in conflict to seek, by consensus, a binding resolution. The perception in mediation is that there are no winners or losers; as Del Boy would say, "Everyone's a winner." It saves grief, money and time.
I commend this enabling amendment to the minister as a progressive step. The minister says that there will be a culture change in the way in which we go through the planning process. In my view, amendment 153 would enhance that culture change and could lead to further mediation in other areas in Scotland.
I move amendment 153.
Amendment 153 would give ministers a power to make regulations to promote the use of mediation. There is no doubt that mediation is a useful tool—a non-adversarial approach that helps to build consensus and to improve relationships around potentially difficult issues. Although mediation can be a useful process in areas such as family law, where couples might agree to use an independent third party to help them to discuss and resolve areas of conflict, there is little evidence of the benefits that it could bring to the planning system. That is why we have said that we will run a pilot to see whether formal mediation can be applied effectively to the planning system and to evaluate its potential impacts and costs.
Mediation is just one of a number of tools for involving communities in the planning process. The planning advice note on community engagement proposes a number of engagement techniques, including mediation. I do not wish one method—especially a method that is relatively untested in the planning system—to be given prominence in the bill, potentially at the expense of others. It could also be counterproductive to require in law something that should be approached on a voluntary basis, with the agreement of both sides. I do not support amendment 153 and urge members to reject it.
As I have indicated previously in the chamber, there is a vast amount of evidence that mediation works. I suggest that the minister considers the successful operation of mediation in Maryland, the state to which I referred. Major commercial companies use mediation because it saves them a great deal of money and time.
Amendment 153 does not make mediation mandatory but leaves it to the discretion of Scottish ministers, who
"may by regulations make provision to promote the use of mediation".
The amendment does not make the minister promote mediation, but simply leaves it open to him to take up that opportunity—or not, as the case may be. His response is rather unhappy—I was hoping that we would move forward with culture change. If we want to get away from conflict in planning, mediation is the way in which to do that. I am sorry that the minister will not support amendment 153.
The question is, that amendment 153 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 38, Against 74, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 153 disagreed to.
Section 48—Further amendment of the principal Act
Amendment 155 moved—[Patrick Harvie].
The question is, that amendment 155 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
The result of the division is: For 37, Against 72, Abstentions 2.
Amendment 155 disagreed to.
Amendment 154 not moved.
Amendment 91 moved—[Malcolm Chisholm]—and agreed to.
Amendments 160 and 161 moved—[Dr Sylvia Jackson]—and agreed to.
Before section 50
Group 30 is on report on implementation. Amendment 156, in the name of Sarah Boyack, is the only amendment in the group.
We would all agree that the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill is one of the most important pieces of legislation that the Parliament will pass. Amendment 156 is a probing amendment that is designed to try to get a feel from the Executive as to what it intends to do in future to review the legislation. The fact that the Communities Committee spent a marathon amount of time scrutinising the bill, with lots of input from members who were not on the committee, and the fact that 20 MSPs have lodged amendments for stage 3 consideration, tell us that there is huge interest across the Parliament in the successful implementation of the bill.
Many of us will have attended meetings in our communities on local plans and planning applications over the past year, so we know that there is also great interest in planning outside the Parliament. The bill is complex and implementing it will require additional resources and a big change in culture in our local authorities and in our development industry. If implementation is to be successful, we will need to follow through on that interest. We will need trained planners who are equipped to lead that process of engagement and, I hope, empowerment of local communities.
It will be important that we monitor the success of the bill as a Parliament. Through development plans, we have sought a much more effective system of providing a framework for the protection of the environment. That will require a greater investment by those local authorities that have not hitherto made that a priority, so we will want to keep an eye on that. We must consider how the election of local authorities under a different system will affect the planning system, given the new procedures for neighbour notification, the delegation of decision making and some of the notification procedures that the Executive has put into the new framework. Implementing the bill will also require the revision of a lot of Executive guidance, and I hope that implementation will focus on the outcomes as well as the processes. We must examine how the planning process delivers better outcomes.
I would like the minister to take the opportunity, in responding to amendment 156, to outline the timescales within which she envisages that the Executive will review the bill. We have had a lot of discussion in Parliament about the importance of post-legislative scrutiny. To make the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill a success, the Parliament will have to review its implementation. I would like to hear how the Executive sees the implementation of the bill.
In amendment 156, I suggest a timescale of three years. I note that, in a letter to the Communities Committee, the deputy minister suggests that it will take two years just to revise and issue some of the guidance, so she might think that a three-year timescale is too short. However, I believe that we need to start to review the bill within five years, and certainly within a decade, of royal assent. Perhaps the trick is to have a programme from the Executive that is similar to the programme that was built up for the bill's introduction.
As I said, amendment 156 is a probing amendment, but it makes an important point about post-legislative scrutiny. I certainly hope that the Scottish Parliament will spend more time in the next session on scrutiny of how acts have been implemented than it spends on new proposals. That will be absolutely crucial for the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill.
I move amendment 156.
Although I do not support the detail of amendment 156, I absolutely support the sentiments that Sarah Boyack has just articulated. I ask the minister, in responding, to comment specifically on the resourcing capacity that will be put in place to drive forward the implementation process, nationally and locally.
Members have copies of the deputy minister's letter to the convener of the Communities Committee. I have some concern about the emphasis that it places on secondary legislation and guidance, and I seek an assurance that the Executive will place appropriate emphasis on the human dimension of leadership, dialogue, training and other such methods of driving momentum behind the process.
I also ask the minister whether a process will be put in place to ensure that the various stakeholders and the range of organisations that have an interest in the bill will now turn their minds to what happens after it is passed. In that regard, I welcome the contribution from the Scottish Council for Development and Industry, which is indeed looking beyond the bill. I would like to see more external organisations doing so from here on in.
One of the things that I have learned in this job is that planners are human. Therefore, their energy and enthusiasm will ensure that the human dimension of planning and the crucial role of communities are recognised.
I take Susan Deacon's point that there is also a challenge for stakeholders. Some of them have engaged with the process as the bill has gone through Parliament, but others were content to stand on the sidelines and shout. It is crucial that everyone who has an interest in the matter engages with the process.
Sarah Boyack is correct to say that there has already been a significant amount of engagement in the Parliament and through the committee process. It sometimes felt as if everybody and their granny was at the committee when we considered the bill. There is no doubt that people engaged seriously with the process. I acknowledge the role of Sarah Boyack, who ensured that she voiced her concerns on behalf of her constituents.
Amendment 156 would require ministers to report to Parliament on the implementation of the legislation, particularly in respect of actions taken by ministers and planning authorities.
The Communities Committee discussed the issue in detail at stage 2. It was recognised across the committee that an important principle is involved and that it is essential to keep a careful eye on the implementation of legislation to ensure that a gap does not open up between what has been claimed and what is delivered. However, it became clear in that discussion that a single snapshot report was not the best way to address the issue and that such a provision would be too prescriptive.
We already have examples of fixed dates that were set for reporting back to the Parliament on an issue proving to be inappropriately timed. For example, we reported back on the right to buy before we got to the stage at which the changes that had been implemented in the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001 could be followed through.
It is, of course, essential that ministers maintain an open and constructive dialogue with the Parliament on the implementation of policy and legislation in general. Parliament has a clear role in scrutinising implementation.
In the case of planning, we fully intend to keep the Communities Committee, the Parliament and all interested parties up to date with progress on the many aspects of planning modernisation. There will be an extensive programme of secondary legislation, and we have responded to concerns raised by the Subordinate Legislation Committee in that regard by putting in place the safeguards that it wanted.
Members will appreciate that implementation of the programme will take a number of years. However, I am happy to put on record our commitment to ensuring that, if the bill is passed, Parliament is kept properly and fully informed of progress made in implementation. I have already written to the Communities Committee to give an indicative outline timetable for implementation. As I said, much of this will come back to Parliament in the form of secondary legislation. There will also be on-going monitoring reports on the national planning framework.
Many other planning documents, such as Scottish planning policies, will be discussed with the committee. We have had productive engagement in that regard. We are also happy to discuss further with the Communities Committee how best to ensure that Parliament is kept properly informed and engaged. We already have a good record in engaging—
The minister should be finishing now.
I want to make this point, because it is crucial.
In not supporting amendment 156, we are committed to engaging with all those who have an interest in the matter. The bill is the product of such engagement. Our officials are to be congratulated on the way in which they have engaged up to now. I would rather build on that approach and encourage and develop an on-going dialogue in which we continue to monitor and debate the transformation process with all interested parties through to the end. At the heart of the bill is the fact that we want the legislation to work, so we will ensure that there is close monitoring and reporting as we progress.
I identify absolutely with the views that Sarah Boyack expressed when she clarified the purpose of amendment 156, but I urge her not to be prescriptive about the timescale and to ensure that the continuing dialogue is sustained. I urge her not to press amendment 156, but to recognise that the policy position that underpins it is one that the planners will take forward.
Ms Boyack, I ask you to indicate whether you are pressing or withdrawing amendment 156. You have no time to wind up on it.
On the basis of the minister's response, I seek leave to withdraw amendment 156, if the Parliament is happy to let me do so.
Do members agree that amendment 156 be withdrawn?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fox, Colin (Lothians) (SSP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kane, Rosie (Glasgow) (SSP)
Leckie, Carolyn (Central Scotland) (SSP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Martin, Campbell (West of Scotland) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (Sol)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Turner, Dr Jean (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 53, Against 60, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 156 disagreed to.
Schedule
Repeals
Amendments 157 and 158 not moved.
That ends consideration of amendments. Hallelujah.