Aquaculture and Fisheries (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Aquaculture and Fisheries (Scotland) Bill. Members will be aware that they require the bill as amended at stage 2—SP Bill 67A—the marshalled list containing all the amendments that have been selected for debate and the groupings that have been agreed. Members will be familiar by now with the division bells. There will be a five-minute suspension for the first division, with any other divisions being either of 30 seconds or 60 seconds.
Section 7—Code of practice
The first group of amendments is on the code of practice: unused fish farm sites. Amendment 14, in the name of Rob Gibson, is the only amendment in the group.
During stage 2, I raised the question of the way in which the approved code of conduct would act in terms of fish farms. That is a core element of part 1 of the bill. There is a need for clarity about the tenure of fish farm leases and about fish farm planning permissions that will follow.
Through a freedom of information request, I found out that, of the 252 salmon leases that were established by the Crown Estate, in 2004 121 reported nil production, in 2005 the figure was 126 and in 2006 it was 140. Indeed, 67 leases reported nil production for the period 2004-06.
The Crown Estate does not seem to have the mechanisms to ensure that sites, once leased, are actually used. Because many of the sites are owned by large organisations, such as Pan Fish, which has a huge range of locations and leases, amendment 14 would not be a form of overregulation or micromanagement. The bill should take account of the need to underpin access for small companies and new players in the business.
Yesterday, we debated organic food. We know that demand exists for organic salmon and that we could do with more of it. Small firms in that market are very different from the near-monopoly, mass-market producers such as Pan Fish. I contend that amendment 14 would make it possible for more small firms to get involved.
The only way to ensure that Crown Estate leases are subject to effective planning permissions under the Planning etc (Scotland) Act 2006 is to impose time limits on the use of sites in the planning permissions. It should not just be that people have to start using sites within five years; there should be a more detailed time imposition. That would have to be underpinned by the code of practice, which the bill will allow the Executive to alter. The issue that I have outlined is major.
The minister might have discussed with Alasdair Morrison the mechanisms for individuals to challenge competition breaches through the Competition Commission, but I do not recall viewing the timetable for taking big companies to task or the bureaucracy that is involved in that. I cannot fail to note that such companies keep applying for more sites. In the debate about the Clyde fishery, the planning application that has been mentioned most recently is the one from Marine Harvest for a site off South Corriegills in Arran, which has the potential to interfere with an agreement between the Community of Arran Seabed Trust and the Clyde Fishermen's Association to create a scallop seeding area there.
If large firms such as Marine Harvest are not using all their sites—and there is lots of evidence that they have plenty to choose from—controlling whether they could get more sites would not be micromanagement by the Executive; it would be proper management. Given the ministerial commitment to a statutory underpinning for the historic agreement between Clyde Fishermen's Association and COAST, it is surely obvious that the Executive should augment the approved code of practice with amendment 14, which would limit the length of time that a fish farm operator could have a site if it was not in use.
I move amendment 14.
Amendment 14 is the same as a probing amendment that Rob Gibson lodged at stage 2. I said then that the Executive's intention was to strike a balance in the bill between regulation and not undermining investor confidence in the industry. The bill is appropriate regulation and retains the commercial freedom that our aquaculture industry requires to remain competitive. That approach has been welcomed by the Environment and Rural Development Committee and it would be disrupted if the Parliament were to accept amendment 14.
Rob Gibson mentioned the Planning etc (Scotland) Act 2006. The five-year time limit on undertaking development has been reduced to three years under that act, so there has been a reduction in the timescales. At stage 2, I gave the committee a number of examples of the legitimate commercial reasons that might prevent the development of particular fish farm sites at any given time. I also explained at stage 2—and subsequently in correspondence to Alasdair Morrison, which I copied to the convener of the Environment and Rural Development Committee—that any companies that believe themselves to be subject to unfair competition may take that up with the Office of Fair Trading.
Given the probing nature of Rob Gibson's stage 2 amendment and the fact that he withdrew it, I was not required to consider its legal effect in detail. However, the proposal is now before the Parliament in amendment 14, and I must consider its effect. Amendment 14 seeks to include a time limit within the code of conduct that the Scottish ministers may approve under section 7. Section 8 requires the Scottish ministers to monitor compliance with any such code and gives them the power to issue notices that require the taking of such steps as they consider necessary to secure compliance with the code. Contravention of such a notice without reasonable excuse would be an offence.
The legal effect of amendment 14 would not be to force companies to free up undeveloped sites, nor even to encourage them to do so, but to give an unreasonable degree of power to the Scottish ministers. I doubt that Rob Gibson really intends that the Scottish ministers should be able to force the occupiers of fish farm sites to operate a business on those sites on pain of criminal sanction, but that would be the effect of his amendment 14 were it to become law.
I fully understand the concern that lies behind amendment 14, which is that companies may be stifling competition by hanging on to potential fish farm sites and thereby limiting the opportunities for other companies and the potential growth of the aquaculture industry. As I said at stage 2, the issue is important, and the Executive takes an active interest in the work that Fisheries Research Services, the Crown Estate, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and the Scottish Salmon Producers Organisation are doing on site use and availability and the efficiency of site sharing among key players. Rob Gibson's amendment 14 would not be effective in preventing abuse that involved anti-competitive practices or agreements or abuse of a dominant position. That would be a matter for the competition authorities.
I urge Rob Gibson to withdraw amendment 14 for the reasons that I have outlined.
As the Environment and Rural Development Committee's stage 1 report suggested,
"the long-term retention of sites which are left inactive is unacceptable."
I have listened to the minister saying that she does not want to criminalise such a situation, but my amendment 14 would allow the Executive to make the point that, as such a large number of sites—more than half the sites in existence—are not being used, something extra special must be done to bring them into production.
In our party, we believe that the difficulties that small companies face in using the OFT mechanism make its use more wishful thinking than a real opportunity. The time and the cost that would be involved in small companies trying to get a decision shift the balance very much in favour of the largest firms and against potential smaller incomers into the business. We want more entrepreneurs. We want young people to come into the business. How are people going to be able to start using any of the sites? That is the question.
Amendment 14 would open up potential for unused sites. I do not see how there can be an objection to it, because it depends on actions being taken by the Executive, which could go down the criminal route or could allow for a tougher approach to be taken with planning applications and advice. People should not just be advised to start development within three years; sites must be used each year, with their use being surveyed. The practical interpretation of amendment 14 would come in secondary legislation. The principle is one of opening up sites.
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division. I suspend the meeting for five minutes.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
We will proceed with the division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 32, Against 70, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 14 disagreed to.
After section 17
Group 2 is on the prevention of entry into Scotland of Gyrodactylus salaris. Amendment 1, in the name of Ted Brocklebank, is grouped with amendments 1A and 15.
This Parliament passes laws on all sorts of things, but only rarely can we honestly say that it is faced with an issue as important as that of Gyrodactylus salaris, the infamous salmon parasite that has devastated fish stocks and river systems on the continent. Although GS has not yet appeared in Scotland, it might be only a matter of time until it does unless we take action to combat the threat. At present, if anglers take a fishing trip to Norway, there is nothing to stop them, upon their return to Scotland, continuing to fish with equipment that might be contaminated. The threat is obvious, but what should we do about it?
Let me quote directly from the Executive's document on GS, which was produced for ministers by experts at the institute of aquaculture at the University of Stirling and Glasgow Caledonian University business school. According to that document, which I have with me, the cost to the economy if GS became widespread would be £34.5 million per year in lost household income, £44.8 million in lost expenditure, and a staggering £633 million in net economic value lost. The document also estimates that almost 2,000 full-time equivalent jobs would be lost annually.
What does the excellent document suggest that we should do to prevent such an economic and ecological catastrophe? I quote:
"The probability of GS entering the UK could be reduced considerably by the provision of disinfection stations at ports".
It also says:
"The total estimated cost of these measures … is £6m".
That cost is small in comparison with the net economic value of £633 million.
Furthermore, the measures that are outlined in amendment 1 were enthusiastically endorsed by every member of the Environment and Rural Development Committee in its stage 1 report. At that time, the deputy minister was convener of the committee. Paragraph 99 of the report states:
"The Committee does not see why more robust measures should not also be developed at ports of entry—such as a requirement to make a declaration at customs points if carrying fishing gear or other water-sports equipment".
We know who the convener of the committee was, so why, when Ted Brocklebank heeded the committee's recommendation and duly lodged an amendment at stage 2, did the deputy minister reject it and her Labour and Liberal Democrat colleagues on the committee vote it down?
The measures that are outlined in amendment 1 may not be enough to stop GS, not least because it could arrive via England or Wales, but they would send a signal to the United Kingdom Government that we are deadly serious in combating that parasite and that similar measures must be implemented across the country.
Will the member give way?
Presiding Officer, may I give way?
That is entirely at your discretion.
I will happily give way.
For the sake of other members, will Mr McGrigor explain precisely how proposed new section 5DA(1) of the Diseases of Fish Act 1937 is intended to work? How would persons entering Scotland from outwith Great Britain declare the items in question on entry into Scotland?
Presumably, if someone came to a Scottish airport, they would declare the items there. We would not have the power to make them declare the items at a UK airport, but the same measures could be introduced at Westminster by a Sewel motion or some such method.
Members will agree that £6 million is a small price to pay to ensure that we do all that we can to prevent the awful GS parasite from getting here. We may not succeed, but surely we have a moral obligation in Scotland to give it our best shot.
I move amendment 1.
I will speak to amendments 1A and 15. I agree with Jamie McGrigor, not only with regard to the fact that the Parliament makes lots of laws but on some of his other points.
I lodged amendment 1A because, if the Parliament chooses to support Jamie McGrigor's amendment 1, the SNP's amendment will strengthen it by ensuring that the minister reports back to the Parliament within a year of the act coming into force on exactly what measures have been taken in conjunction with other UK authorities to stop GS coming into the country. I lodged the same amendment as stand-alone amendment 15, so that it can be voted on separately if the Parliament does not support amendment 1.
We can all agree that, if GS arrives in Scotland, it will be utterly devastating first and foremost for our rural economy, particularly for our freshwater fisheries, related tourism and jobs, and for the other industries that use our rivers, particularly the whisky industry and, increasingly, the renewable energy industry. It will also damage Scotland's image, which will be done no good whatever if we have rivers in which all the wildlife has been killed.
I, too, will quote from the Environment and Rural Development Committee's report on the bill, which says that the Association of Electricity Producers said in relation to the River Tay:
"If such an incident were to happen, we would have an on-going containment problem for evermore. Instead of thinking of ways of treating or containing it, we should be putting our minds to preventing it from entering our water system in the first place."—[Official Report, Environment and Rural Development Committee, 24 October 2006; c 3576.]
That shows that prevention is better than cure. I was going to quote the committee's recommendation in paragraph 99, with which we agree, but Jamie McGrigor did that.
On the damage that would be done to the whisky industry—as the representative of Moray, it is close to my heart—I have an e-mail that the whisky industry sent following the recent GS contingency planning exercise. The industry says:
"the exercise made it clear that if GS comes to Scotland then eradication will not be quick even if chemicals are employed … Repeat dosing of watercourses would mean repeated disruption to distilling activities and a higher likelihood of a negative impact on international consumer confidence. This has re-inforced our view on the importance of focusing on preventative measures."
It also says that the Government's assessment of the economic damage that would result from an outbreak of GS
"makes no mention of the broader impact … on the Scotch Whisky brand reputation internationally and consumer confidence."
I highlight that e-mail to the Parliament to reinforce the fact that the issue affects not just freshwater fisheries and anglers, although they are extremely valuable economically and for jobs, but other industries that use our river systems for their own ends, such as the renewable energy and whisky industries. It is imperative that we support the taking of steps at ports of entry, which the committee and the wider sectors that the debate affects support. It is also imperative to ask ministers to report to Parliament within one year of the act coming into force, to ensure that the issue is a priority for the Government.
I move amendment 1A.
I do not disagree with Jamie McGrigor's point that Gyrodactylus salaris is an extremely important disease to deal with, and the Executive has no difficulty in agreeing that its potential impact is serious. Therefore, I do not necessarily disagree with Richard Lochhead, either. However, my concern is that although Jamie McGrigor and Richard Lochhead highlighted the disease's importance and the need to be alert to it, neither of them established whether the risk is high or how the disease is most likely to be transmitted.
The expert reports to which Jamie McGrigor was keen to refer in relation to the disease's importance make it clear that experts and scientists have assessed as "extremely low" the risk of Gyrodactylus salaris entering the United Kingdom via fishing and boating equipment. Of relevance to that assessment is the knowledge that where the disease has occurred in Norway, equipment has never been implicated in the parasite's transmission between rivers. I and the Executive take seriously this extremely important matter, but transmission has not occurred by the means that amendment 1 or amendment 1A suggests. We must ensure that people who engage in fishing are as aware as everybody else is of the high risk.
Amendment 1 is not particularly workable. Often, points of entry from infected areas are not staffed by customs officials and, when they are, it is impractical to check every passenger. More important, the veracity of any declaration—if one were given—could not be established. That view is shared by HM Revenue and Customs, which was approached about the matter, and by the salmon angling representatives on the Gyrodactylus salaris task force that we established to develop our contingency plan.
Our preferred approach is to raise the ante by making all those who engage in relevant activity far more aware of the potential risks that are attached to the disease and of the considerable impact that any outbreak would have on Scotland's economy. Therefore, we have arranged a campaign, to which we are devoting additional resources. We are engaging with all people who come to Scotland and who book holidays here to advise and inform them of the danger that is associated with their bringing in the disease.
I appreciate the fact that the minister has strong views on Ted Brocklebank's amendment. However, the SNP's amendment 1A simply asks ministers to report back to Parliament within one year. Surely he has no objection to that.
I am addressing the amendments in the order in which they were spoken to. I know that Richard Lochhead is anxious for me to respond to his amendments, but he must not get excited. I am dealing with the substance of Mr McGrigor's point. Public information is the important thing; therefore, I hope that Mr McGrigor will withdraw amendment 1.
I turn to amendments 1A and 15—I hope that this will calm the SNP front bench. It is entirely reasonable to expect that Parliament will be informed at any time of steps that are being taken to resist the importation of serious diseases such as gyrodactylosis. However, that is something that people would expect at any time. They would expect developments to be reported and they would expect ministers to report the fact should incidences of the disease arise in mainland Europe. The public should be informed of that—indeed, there may have to be a reassessment of the risk that has already been identified. Therefore, although that is perfectly plausible and, as a minister, I have no difficulty in undertaking to provide that information to Parliament, I do not think that that is a matter to be enshrined in statute. I do not believe that the matter requires statutory underpinning within the bill; therefore, I invite Mr Lochhead to withdraw amendment 1A and not to move amendment 15.
Because the lead amendment is subject to amendment, we will have two winding-up speeches. Mr McGrigor will wind up the debate on amendment 1 and Mr Lochhead will wind up the debate on amendment 1A.
I listened closely to what Mr Finnie said, but I still think that we should take further measures to strengthen prevention of the parasite ever reaching Scottish rivers. For years, the Atlantic Salmon Trust and others have issued leaflets about Gyrodactylus salaris, and I feel that the Parliament should be strengthening their arm. I re-emphasise to members the fact that amendment 1 would merely insert into the bill the cross-party recommendation of the Environment and Rural Development Committee—a recommendation that was also cited in the expert report that was commissioned by ministers last year.
Gyrodactylus salaris has destroyed river systems in Norway. If it ever came here, it would not only destroy our rivers, but could badly damage the whisky industry, fish farming, the recreational angling sector and associated tourism all over Scotland. We simply cannot allow that to happen. That is a nightmare scenario, and we should do our best to prevent it from happening. I therefore urge members, despite the assurances from the Executive, to back amendment 1, in the name of Ted Brocklebank, and amendments 1A and 15, in the name of Richard Lochhead.
I, too, will press my amendments. It would be good to place in the bill an obligation on the ministers to report back within one year of the act coming into force. That is not a huge demand, and the minister has already said that he would be prepared to report back at some stage. Let us ensure that that happens, given that the issue is crucial for the industries involved.
The question is, that amendment 1A be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 43, Against 59, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 1A disagreed to.
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 43, Against 57, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 1 disagreed to.
Amendment 15 moved—[Richard Lochhead].
The question is, that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 43, Against 59, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 15 disagreed to.
Section 21—Rod and line
Group 3 is on prohibition on the use of certain baits and lures. Amendment 2, in the name of Ted Brocklebank, is grouped with amendments 12, 10 and 11. In the event that amendment 2 is agreed to, amendment 12 will be pre-empted.
Amendment 2 seeks to remove the paragraph—section 21(2)(aa)—that was inserted by an amendment in the name of the minister at stage 2. Section 21(2)(aa) implements the Executive's intention to ban the use of live fish as bait.
I totally understand that the minister's primary concern in introducing the provision in section 21(2)(aa) is to prevent the contamination of waters with alien species that are used as live bait, but I am far from convinced that such practices are responsible for any more than a small percentage of the alien species that appear in our lochs and rivers. I would support the minister if she were to introduce a Danish-style ban on live bait by banning the use of live bait that had not been caught on the same day and in the same waterway that is being fished. However, I worry that, in outlawing completely the use of live bait, we may be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
The fact remains that the use of live bait is a thoroughly well-established practice among pike fishermen, who travel from far and wide to Scotland's lochs to enjoy some of the best pike fishing anywhere in the British isles or the world. In my view, the Parliament should do all that it can to further the growth of coarse angling generally and pike fishing specifically. Therefore, I worry that including the provision on the face of the bill will send out all the wrong signals to the coarse fishermen who currently come to Scotland and to those who are considering coming here in the future.
I fully understand the minister's concerns, but I ask her with all sincerity to consider whether there might be a better way forward to deal with all our concerns about alien species without implementing a total ban on the practice of using live bait. As well as supporting amendment 2, in the name of Ted Brocklebank, I will support amendments 12, 10 and 11, in the names of Richard Lochhead and Dennis Canavan.
I move amendment 2.
If members listened closely to Jamie McGrigor's speech, it will have been obvious that he was speaking more in favour of amendment 12, in my name, than amendment 2. Amendment 2 would mean that there would be no ban on the use of live vertebrates, whereas amendment 12 accepts that there should be a ban in the bill but that, at a future date, the minister should have the power to introduce exemptions.
The reason why we cannot lift a ban completely is that it is imperative that we take a belt-and-braces approach to preventing alien species from going into our rivers—in the past, that has caused much damage to indigenous species—to protect biodiversity in Scotland's rivers. We need a ban of some kind to ensure that that does not happen.
On the correspondence between the Scottish Federation for Coarse Angling and the minister's office in recent months, there is perhaps a case for making exemptions in the future. I know that the federation and the minister have been batting correspondence back and forth. It has been claimed that if we take live vertebrates from the river and use them as bait in the same river, that would not pose a threat to biodiversity and would certainly not introduce alien species to the river.
My amendment 12 would leave it open to the minister to bring back exemptions in the future, but it would ensure that there were no unintended consequences of that. It is a sensible amendment, because all it would do is give the minister the option to bring back an exemption at some future date after further discussions with the fisheries sector and with the coarse anglers in particular. It is as simple as that. I urge members to support the SNP's amendment 12, because Jamie McGrigor's amendment 10, which he did not speak to, does not make sense and would pose a threat to biodiversity in Scotland's rivers.
Amendments 10 and 11 would mean that ministers could not introduce a complete ban on fishing with live invertebrates as bait or a complete ban on lures. Many children and young people's introduction to angling is fishing with a worm, maggot or spinning rod and reel with a small metal lure. It can be difficult for young children to learn fly fishing, although they might graduate to that skill. The use of a worm, maggot or small lure is much easier and potentially more successful. That is how many children get their first catch, which they will probably remember for the rest of their lives. I do not think that we should deprive children and young people of that exciting experience. It would be wrong for ministers to introduce a complete ban on the use of all live invertebrates as bait or a complete ban on all lures. I ask the deputy minister for appropriate assurances.
This issue was discussed extensively at stage 2. The Environment and Rural Development Committee recommended in its stage 1 report that the Executive introduce a ban on live vertebrate baits, which it said that it was minded to do.
For me, two issues are involved. The first, which motivated the Executive, is biodiversity and the risk of fish used as bait becoming established in an area where they did not belong and posing a threat to the native species. The second issue is fish welfare. It is acknowledged that fish are sentient beings and I do not think that it is right that live vertebrates be used as bait.
I have no problems with what Dennis Canavan said about the importance of being able to fish with lures and invertebrates. I am very supportive of angling and I would never want to stop people using invertebrates, which come into quite a different category.
However, I do not believe that using live fish as bait is acceptable nowadays. I accept that that puts me at odds with the Pike Anglers Club of Great Britain, with which I have corresponded. The first thing that one sees on its website is instructions for fishing for pike with dead bait, so it is not inevitable that one must fish for pike with live bait—although I accept that the club says that using live bait provides better sport at a certain time of year. In this day and age, we should not be using live fish as bait.
I accept the points about biodiversity that have been made. I have no problems with the point that Dennis Canavan made, but the bill as it stands—as amended at stage 2—takes the right approach.
The bill already includes an enabling provision, which was introduced in section 25, to allow for a prohibition of the use of live vertebrates as bait to be made through subordinate legislation. That would allow for the use of specific baits and lures, such as live vertebrates, to be prohibited in fishing for freshwater fish.
Following concerns that were raised by many stakeholders about the risk of adverse effects on biodiversity in our inland waters from the use of unused live bait, we decided that putting the provision on the face of the bill would make the policy absolutely clear. The Environment and Rural Development Committee endorsed that position in its stage 1 report and the bill was amended at stage 2 to include such a provision. Ted Brocklebank's amendment 2 would remove that provision.
I want to refute some of the myths that have been flying around about this issue during the past few weeks. First, it has been suggested that the provision that was inserted at stage 2 was some kind of late amendment aimed at getting through a new policy at the end of the process. It was not. The prohibition on the use of live vertebrates was first proposed in the Executive's green paper "Scotland's freshwater fish and fisheries: Securing their future", which was published in August 2001. It was subsequently debated thoroughly in the freshwater fisheries forum and included in the consultation document that was issued in December 2005. The response to the question in that consultation was four to one in favour of a ban.
I acknowledge that the strongly held views for and against the use of live vertebrates as bait tend to split along the lines that are associated with different branches of the sport. Those who wish to fish for predatory fish such as pike want no ban, whereas those who fish for other fish want a ban. It has been argued that introducing the ban simply supports the views of the latter group, but those on both sides of the argument share the same environment, and the fact remains that the use of live vertebrates by one group could compromise the environment and the fishing of another group.
The second point has been raised by several people; Eleanor Scott mentioned it today. The ban is not about welfare, and the Executive's next step will not be to prohibit the use of worms and maggots, if not fishing itself. I emphasise that the Executive has been consistent on that issue from day one. The issue is one of biodiversity, and I welcome Richard Lochhead's acknowledgement that biodiversity must be the central issue.
There is also a myth that live vertebrates are not a problem. That is not so. The use of live vertebrates as bait has resulted in the translocation of live fish from one body of water to another. We need only look at Loch Lomond to see what has happened. The loch now supports a number of fish species that are new to the loch. One of those species, the ruffe, is now the most numerous fish in the loch and it is thought to pose a major threat to the loch's indigenous powan, which is an internationally important species of freshwater fish found in Loch Lomond and Lock Eck and which is listed in the habitats directive.
The use of lures and dead fish—often marine species such as sprat or mackerel—gives anglers an ample range of methods and there is no need to put biodiversity at risk. We do not want to suggest that pike anglers should not come to Scotland; they will still be very welcome.
Although the use of live vertebrates is supported by a minority, support for a ban was, and remains, widespread. The case for prohibition is compelling. That was also the view of the majority of members on the Environment and Rural Development Committee.
I ask Jamie McGrigor to consider withdrawing amendment 2 for the reasons that I have outlined. I listened carefully to Richard Lochhead's arguments in favour of amendment 12. We have to focus on the issue of our native biodiversity. The fact that it has been compromised in some places does not mean that we should allow that to continue in others. The Executive's view is that the risk is just too great. I ask Richard Lochhead not to press his amendment. The Executive's position is clear and is supported by the majority: the provision should stay in the bill.
Taken together, the effect of Dennis Canavan's amendments 10 and 11 would be that Scottish ministers would not be able to make conservation regulations that would completely prohibit the use of lures or live invertebrates as bait either directly or as a result of the cumulative effects of sets of regulations. Some stakeholders are concerned that banning the use of live vertebrates as bait will also mean a ban on the use of live invertebrates, or that it would be followed by such a ban. That is not the case, and I am happy to repeat the commitment that I gave at stage 2: the Executive supports angling and does not intend to ban the use of live invertebrates as bait.
I met Dennis Canavan and I fully understand that the use of worms and maggots as bait and certain spinners as lures is central to the introduction of many young people to the sport of angling. I assure him that it is certainly not our intention to put any obstacles in the way of potential new entrants to the sport; quite the contrary.
By introducing new section 51A into the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003, section 25 of the bill addresses the need that was identified by stakeholders for a set of appropriate tools that may be used when there are conservation concerns about freshwater fish. If the appropriate response to an identified problem includes prohibiting specified lures or baits, the appropriate regulation can be made.
Scottish ministers can make regulations only if they are satisfied that it is necessary or expedient to do so for the conservation of freshwater fish. That power is not available to be used for any other reason. For example, it could not be used to ban the use of live invertebrates as bait solely on supposed welfare grounds.
Before any regulations are made, a system of checks and balances will apply. There is a requirement that ministers must consult and take advice from a range of bodies, including the Fisheries Research Services, SEPA and environmental non-governmental organisations; the views of anglers must be sought, too, of course. Ministers must always be proportionate and reasonable in the action that they take. The final check and balance is that they will have to persuade the Parliament of what they want to do.
As I have explained, the Executive has no intention to ban completely the use of any lure or of live invertebrates as bait, and we can see no circumstances in which section 25 would be used to introduce such a complete ban. Dennis Canavan's amendments 10 and 11 are unnecessary and, on the basis of the reassurance that I have provided, I ask him not to move them.
I hear what the minister says and I certainly agree that the movement of fish from one catchment area to another in which they are an alien species should be avoided. However, I do not see why that means that a method that has been used by pike fishermen since time immemorial should have to be banned. Surely the ban should be on bringing fish from one catchment area to another water. As I do not agree with what the minister has said, I intend to press amendment 2.
The question is, that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 11, Against 80, Abstentions 0.
Amendment disagreed to.
Amendment 12 moved—[Richard Lochhead].
The question is, that amendment 12 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 36, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 12 disagreed to.
Section 23—Close times for freshwater fish
Group 4 is on management of freshwater fisheries. Amendment 4, in the name of Dennis Canavan, is grouped with amendments 5 to 7 and 9.
The broad aim of the amendments is to improve fishing opportunities for ordinary anglers. For many working people, the only opportunities they have to fish are at weekends. Those opportunities would be destroyed if fishing were to be prohibited on Saturdays and Sundays. Amendment 4 or amendment 5 would ensure that people had the opportunity to fish on at least one day at the weekend.
Amendments 6, 7 and 9 would repeal the provisions that were introduced by the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 and would establish a Scottish anglers trust. About 30 years ago, I voted in the House of Commons against the 1976 act, which introduced protection orders. The Government at the time claimed that protection orders would be granted only in return for increased access. In fact, the opposite has happened. Instead of increased access, there has been decreased access in many areas and in some areas there is no access at all. I have been campaigning for more than 30 years for repeal of the 1976 act. After the Scottish Parliament was set up, I welcomed the repeated firm commitments that were given to Parliament that the Executive would repeal the 1976 act.
On 28 March 2002, the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development, Allan Wilson, told Parliament:
"We aim to repeal the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 and replace protection orders with a new system".—[Official Report, 28 March 2002; c 10780.]
On 25 April 2002, the Minister for Environment and Rural Development, Ross Finnie, told Parliament:
"The 1976 act will be reformed and repealed. It will have to be replaced."—[Official Report, 25 April 2002; c 11360.]
However, instead of the 1976 act being repealed, it has been consolidated in the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003, and there is no mention of repealing protection orders in the bill that is before us today. On 1 July 2004, Allan Wilson told Parliament:
"there is a provisional slot for a fisheries bill this session. That will provide the means for repealing the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 … We are in the process of consulting on what we would wish to put in its place."—[Official Report, 1 July 2004; c 9780.]
For years, I have been suggesting what should be put in its place, namely a democratically constituted Scottish anglers trust to administer freshwater fishing throughout Scotland. Indeed, Allan Wilson apparently expressed support for that idea when, on 1 July 2004, he said:
"we intend to repeal the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 and replace it with more modern mechanisms, which will include the trusts to which the member"—
me—
"refers."—[Official Report, 1 July 2004; c 9781.]
So—where is the Scottish anglers trust? There is no mention of any trust in the bill. The bill completely fails to honour the repeated commitments that have been given to Parliament. The only excuse from the Executive so far has been that more time is required for consultation. I submit that an additional two years is time enough. Amendments 6, 7 and 9 would ensure that within two years of the legislation reaching the statute book, the Executive would be obliged to bring an order before Parliament to repeal the 1976 act and to introduce proposals to set up a democratically constituted Scottish anglers trust.
I have said it before in Parliament and I will say it again: the mountains, hills and glens of Scotland do not belong just to the landed gentry: they are part of our national heritage. That is true also of Scotland's rivers, lochs and burns. Parliament took radical legislative action in the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 to ensure fair access to the countryside. It is time for Parliament to ensure fair access to freshwater fishing so that ordinary working-class anglers can enjoy one of Scotland's most popular sports.
I move amendment 4.
I am afraid that Mr Canavan has lured in too many members so I am going to have to impose a two-minute restriction on speeches. I call John Home Robertson.
Two minutes is impossible. Sorry.
Okay. Mr Gibson?
It is essential that ordinary anglers be able to access our river systems to fish. Since most of those people are working folk, they have to fish at weekends. Amendments 4 and 5, which suggest that there should be no weekly closures on Saturdays or Sundays, make a lot of sense. Parliament has talked about total catchment area management; fishing and angling could also be dealt with under that process, but unfortunately the bill does not even begin to tackle it.
Dennis Canavan has addressed a long-standing grievance. The Scottish National Party believes that people should be consulted specifically on what should replace the 1976 act and we think that the act could be replaced within two years. It is important that Parliament send a message to the Executive that there is a good deal of urgency on the matter.
I refer to my entry in the register of members' interests. I give Dennis Canavan credit for pursuing the matter over a number of years, but what I find difficult in what he is saying is that he suggests that the protection order system has reduced access throughout Scotland. That is simply not the case. The protection order system has, in fact, increased angling on a number of rivers in Scotland. Therefore, the fundamental basis of his argument is suspect. If there has been a reduction in access in a number of places, that is fundamentally against the spirit of the 1976 act and the protection order system.
I turn briefly to the concept of a Scottish anglers trust. It would cut across the dozens, if not hundreds, of local angling associations and clubs that manage rivers, often voluntarily. To remove the local effort that goes into providing fishing throughout Scotland and replace it with a centralised quango of some description would run counter to Dennis Canavan's arguments.
I commend Dennis Canavan for putting his arguments so eloquently and for having done so in Parliament for the past eight years. His amendments are on a theme that he has pursued consistently in Parliament and the SNP agrees with much of what he said.
However, unfortunately the SNP will today be unable to support amendment 7 on the anglers trust. The reasons why are simple. We have to ask ourselves some questions. First, is freshwater fisheries management in Scotland archaic? Yes, it is—in some cases it could not be more archaic if it tried. Is it in desperate need of modernisation? Yes, it is—modernisation of freshwater fisheries management in Scotland is long overdue. Is it appalling that although we have been waiting for eight years, the current Administration has in the bill put forward nothing that would address the situation? Yes—of course that is an appalling situation, especially when so many promises have been made by successive ministers over the past eight years. However, we are where we are. The freshwater fisheries forum has been meeting over the past few years and is considering a new, modern way in which to govern our freshwater fisheries. As Rob Gibson rightly said, it should be governed on a river catchment area basis.
A key point to make is that the Environment and Rural Development Committee did not consider freshwater fisheries management because it is not included in the bill. There has been no scrutiny of Dennis Canavan's proposal or of any others. I say to Dennis Canavan that that is an important point, which Parliament must take into account. After all, today we will be asked to pass primary legislation, so it should be scrutinised properly. I am afraid that the proposal in Dennis Canavan's amendment 7 was not included in the bill or in amendments at stage 2, so it has not been scrutinised. Parliament should have to take that fact into account.
As Dennis Canavan said, his amendments 4 and 5 seek to ensure that weekend fishing would still be available to anglers if weekly close times for freshwater fishing had to be established. I understand his fundamental point, which is that he wishes to ensure that people who work during the week should be able to fish at the weekend. As a general rule, I can do nothing but support that aspiration, but there are no plans to introduce weekly close times for freshwater fishing. If the fisheries are managed sustainably, such a need would not arise.
However, freshwater fishing is likely to be one of the fastest-growing sectors in the sport of angling in Scotland. Our watchword has to be sustainability. If—it is a big "if"—it becomes clear that any fisheries suffer from overexploitation, appropriate measures will, after consultation, have to be taken. In addition, if a fishery deteriorates as a result of other factors, such as habitat degradation or pollution, it may be necessary to introduce short-term effort-reduction measures to allow stock recovery.
If the greatest fishing effort occurs during weekends, closing the fishery on other days of the week may have little or no effect on the difficulty that has been identified and may, indeed, prolong the recovery period.
We do not really want to close fisheries at weekends, but to completely rule out such a move would not be in the best interests of fish conservation. Moreover, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which a weekly close time would be introduced across Scotland. The proposals in section 23 allow for highly targeted time-limited measures to be taken to address particular problems that might become apparent. It is essential that Scottish ministers have the necessary tools to do the job in the best interests of fish and fishermen.
As Mr Canavan said, amendment 6 seeks the repeal of the 1976 act's protection order provisions. Like other members, I acknowledge Mr Canavan's long-standing and passionately held opposition to the protection order system. Indeed, he repeated his views on the matter during the stage 1 debate.
However, it has been made very clear to the Executive that the overwhelming majority view of the freshwater angling sector in Scotland is that the current provisions must be retained until new management structures are in place. The new management bodies will require new primary legislation, which we propose to introduce as soon as the proposals are formulated.
That comment goes to the heart of this issue. How much longer are we going to have to wait for accountable management of fisheries? Is not it absurd that some landlords get the benefit of statutory protection without maintaining reasonable access for local angling clubs and visitors with appropriate permits?
I agree, but as John Home Robertson is aware, we have established a number of forums to address the matter. If we are to have a more inclusive process, we must use the steering groups that have been established with the widest possible involvement of stakeholders to develop proposals from the bottom up. We cannot impose a structure from the top down.
As Dennis Canavan made clear in his remarks, the steering group is currently developing a strategic framework. One of its major aims is to put together proposals for the new management bodies, which will develop fish and fisheries management plans that will do away with the need for protection orders. As a result, the days of the protection order system are very clearly numbered. However, we have not yet reached that point and we cannot simply throw the system away in the next two years. The problems with the protection order system that most exercise stakeholders have been drawn to our attention and are addressed in paragraph 5(4) of the schedule to the bill.
Amendment 7 calls for Scottish ministers to lay before Parliament proposals that would establish a Scottish anglers trust and that trust's constitution. I am aware that, as long ago as 1965, the committee that was chaired by Lord Hunter and which reviewed the law on salmon and freshwater fisheries proposed the establishment of such a trust to address issues in relation to brown trout and sea trout fishing.
As I said earlier, the Scottish freshwater fisheries forum and its steering group are now addressing the matter in the current context and have acknowledged the importance not only of managing fisheries but of ensuring that there is close co-operation with organisations that protect and restore Scotland's aquatic environment, in order to provide an integrated and holistic approach to fisheries management. I hope that that addresses Richard Lochhead's point about river basin management.
The formation of the new bodies that will deliver the management will require primary legislation which, as I said earlier, we are keen to introduce. They will have a wider remit than that which was proposed for the Scottish anglers trust, but I hope that they will also embody the thrust of the proposals that Dennis Canavan has promoted for many years.
Amendment 9 will be necessary only if amendment 6 is accepted. It is clear from the extensive consultation that has been undertaken that there is no appetite to repeal the protection order provisions. I hope that, with those assurances, Mr Canavan will seek to withdraw amendment 4 and not move his other amendments.
I am exercising my power under rule 9.8.4A(c) to extend the time limit for the debate on this group of amendments in order to allow Mr Canavan to wind up. I would be grateful if he did so as briefly as possible.
Ross Finnie has performed yet another Liberal Democrat volte-face. On 25 April 2002, he gave an unequivocal commitment to Parliament:
"The 1976 act will be reformed and repealed."—[Official Report, 25 April 2002; c 11360.]
By coming out with the codswallop that he has just given us, without any reference to that commitment, he belittles Parliament and brings it into disrepute.
All I am saying with amendment 6 is that the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 should be repealed within two years. In other words, after a maximum of two years' consultation, the Executive should stand by its commitment.
I turn to Euan Robson's point on protection orders increasing access. There are 14 protection orders across Scotland. I have had many complaints from anglers throughout Scotland, including anglers who have complained about a drop in access because of the Tay protection order and the Assynt-Coigach protection order. Ross Finnie has the documentation in his notes. I know that because I have taken people into his department to complain about the matter.
I turn to the contribution from the SNP. Richard Lochhead made a fair point when he said that the SNP would repeal the 1976 act, which can be done by means of a simple order. The question is this: what will we replace it with? I accept that primary legislation is preferable to secondary legislation, but if he were to look again at the wording of amendment 7, he would see that it simply says that Scottish ministers should bring forward "proposals". That includes the possibility of primary legislation, rather than just doing it by secondary legislation.
I do not view the Scottish anglers trust as an overcentralised body. I believe that it should have a decentralised structure, one that takes into account local situations. That said, we need a national strategy for freshwater fishing in Scotland. My proposal in amendment 7 is flexible enough to allow for a Scottish anglers trust with a constitution that takes account of local circumstances. I will therefore press my amendments, including amendment 4, to a vote.
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 26, Against 73, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 4 disagreed to.
Amendment 5 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 26, Against 74, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 5 disagreed to.
After section 24
Amendment 6 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 6 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 33, Against 68, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 6 disagreed to.
Amendment 7 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 7 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 10, Against 91, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 7 disagreed to.
Section 25—Freshwater fish conservation regulations
Amendments 10 and 11 not moved.
Section 25C—Amount and payment of fixed penalty
Group 5 is on sea fisheries—maximum penalty for fixed-penalty notices. Amendment 13, in the name of the deputy minister, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 13 is a technical amendment to the power that will be conferred on the Scottish ministers by section 25C(1) to prescribe by order a scale of fixed penalties for sea fisheries offences. Amendment 13 will set a maximum limit for fixed penalties of 80 per cent of level 4 on the standard scale—currently £2,000. The amendment addresses concerns that the Subordinate Legislation Committee expressed last month when it considered the Executive amendments that were agreed to at stage 2.
I move amendment 13.
Amendment 13 agreed to.
Section 28—Unauthorised introduction of fish into inland waters
Group 6 is on offences of intentionally introducing live fish or spawn into inland waters—evidence of a single witness. Amendment 8 is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 8 would remove the provision that a person who commits an offence under section 28
"may be convicted on the evidence of one witness."
That provision will undermine the principle of corroboration, which is enshrined in Scots law. Two witnesses are not necessarily required for corroboration, but two or more separate sources of evidence are required. If that approach is considered sufficient to convict a thief, a rapist or a murderer, why should the law be different for alleged offences in fishing?
I accept that there are provisions on fishing that are similar to the provision in section 28. Ministers have tried to justify the approach by saying that a gamekeeper or water bailiff is often the only witness to an alleged offence. However, why should the word of a gamekeeper or water bailiff automatically be considered superior to the word of anyone else?
There is an anomaly in the bill, in that section 28 provides that a person may be convicted on the evidence of one witness for an offence of introducing fish into freshwater, whereas I see no similar stipulation in section 27, which refers to the introduction of fish into seawater—there is one rule for fish in freshwater and another for fish in seawater. In the interests of consistency and natural justice, the Scottish Executive should remove the provision in section 28, so that the normal principles of corroboration and justice will apply to offences under section 28.
I move amendment 8.
Dennis Canavan is right to talk about principles that are enshrined in Scots law, because the principle of using a single witness in relation to offences such as we are considering is well established in Scots law. Indeed, provisions in the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003 can be traced back to provisions in the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Act 1951 and—just as important—the Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1868. Therefore the provision in section 28(6) is not new and I understand that the approach to the new offence that will be created by the bill is entirely consistent with the approach that has been taken in the past. The approach removes the need for a second witness as the sole test of corroboration, in recognition of the fact that water bailiffs are often obliged to work alone, given the nature of their work. The standard of proof is not affected; any offence under section 28 will have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.
I ask Parliament to reject amendment 8.
Ross Finnie has given no justification for the provision except that similar provisions are contained in other acts of Parliament that date back to the 19th century. In the 19th century, water bailiffs and gamekeepers probably had more power than we would want them to have today. The minister should tell Parliament why what was right in the 19th century should be repeated, reinforced or consolidated in the 21st century. I see no justification for the provision either in the bill or in any other legislation.
Even if there is only one witness—a gamekeeper, a policeman, a water bailiff or just an ordinary person who goes out for a walk and sees an illegal act being committed—it is still possible to convict a person with the evidence of the witness plus evidence from some other source. I do not agree that, if amendment 8 were agreed to, it would somehow be impossible to convict real felons, so I will press the amendment to a vote.
The question is, that amendment 8 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 95, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 8 disagreed to.
Section 29—Payments in respect of fish destroyed
As we have reached the final time limit, I exercise my power under rule 9.8.4A(a) to extend the time limit to allow Jamie McGrigor and the deputy minister to speak briefly to group 7.
Group 7 is on payments in respect of fish that are destroyed. Amendment 3, in the name of Ted Brocklebank, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 3 is the same as an amendment that Ted Brocklebank lodged but did not move at stage 2. Having considered the remarks that the minister made at that stage, Ted Brocklebank decided to lodge the amendment again at stage 3, and I am glad to speak to it.
Section 29 merely allows for compensation to be paid to fish farmers who lose their stock as a result of a ministerial action—in the event of slaughter, for example. In such circumstances, fish farmers should, however, be entitled to compensation. Amendment 3 would make compensation compulsory rather than its being at the whim of the minister. After all, fish farming is every bit as much farming as terrestrial farming and some 10,000 jobs in Scotland depend on it. Some people do not like fish farming, but it is only right that it be on a level playing field with terrestrial farming. Amendment 3 would help to ensure that that was the case.
In the interests of fairness and equity, I move amendment 3.
Ted Brocklebank's amendment 3 would convert a discretionary power into a mandatory power. We do not believe that that would be appropriate, and I note that only 17 per cent of the aquaculture companies that responded to our consultation stated a preference for mandatory, rather than discretionary, payments.
At present, the fish farming industry is free of any disease that would require the destruction of stock—long may that continue—so there is no pressure to introduce a scheme in the short term. The power is discretionary for the good reason that no provision for a scheme exists in current spending plans and because the Scottish ministers would have to consider whether and to what extent the Executive could afford such costs.
Does the minister acknowledge that, although there are no diseases at this moment, there have been diseases that required slaughter in recent years, such as infectious salmon anaemia? Does she also agree that they brought havoc to the fish farming industry, particularly to producers of eggs and small fish?
Yes, but we are now introducing a discretionary power in the bill. We expected some acknowledgment of the fact that that is a big step forward. It will give the Scottish ministers powers to set up a scheme for such payments if they feel that there is a need for one. We have kept our options open. Should there be a need to take powers for a payment scheme for aquaculture under the bill, we will be able to do that. Such a scheme would, of course, be designed in consultation with the aquaculture industry and would be set up by order under the affirmative procedure, which means that Parliament would have the chance to scrutinise the order in detail.
That is a step forward. The Executive responded positively to calls for payments for the destruction of fish for disease control purposes. The proposed discretionary provision is unprecedented in aquaculture—I would have thought that members would acknowledge that a discretionary provision is far better than none at all. However, I sense that Mr McGrigor is not prepared to withdraw amendment 3, so I ask members to vote it down.
I listened to what the minister had to say. Although a discretionary power is better than nothing at all, it would be better to have provisions that were good for the industry and which put it in line with ordinary terrestrial farming. Therefore, I will press amendment 3.
The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Mrs Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Petrie, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Tosh, Murray (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Arbuckle, Mr Andrew (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green)
Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) (Ind)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Glen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Gordon, Mr Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Maxwell, Mr Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
May, Christine (Central Fife) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Ruskell, Mr Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Scott, Eleanor (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watt, Ms Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Abstentions
Byrne, Ms Rosemary (South of Scotland) (Sol)
The result of the division is: For 13, Against 87, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 3 disagreed to.
Amendment 9 not moved.
That ends consideration of amendments.