Scottish Civil Justice Council and Criminal Legal Assistance Bill: Stage 3
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Scottish Civil Justice Council and Criminal Legal Assistance Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have before them the bill as amended at stage 2, which is SP bill 13A; the marshalled list, which is SP bill 13A-ML; and the groupings list, which is SP bill 13A-G1.
The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for five minutes for the first division of the afternoon. The period of voting for the first division will be 30 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate.
Members who wish to speak in the debate on any group of amendments should press their request-to-speak button as soon as possible after I call the group.
Section 2—Functions of the Council
Amendment 9, in the name of Jenny Marra, is grouped with amendments 10 and 12.
Amendment 9 is grouped with consequential amendments 10 and 12. Members will be aware that I lodged an identical amendment at stage 2. Part of amendment 9 seeks to ensure that the Scottish ministers are the recipients of Scottish civil justice council recommendations for the development of the civil justice system and that ministers, as well as the Lord President, can request the council to provide advice on civil justice matters of its choosing.
As I said at stage 2, the crux of the issue, as it has been put by eminent public law professors in Scotland, is that the council will have the duty to recommend changes to the civil justice system to the Lord President, as head of the council, but not to the Scottish ministers, who have ultimate responsibility for civil justice policy.
The professors’ main concern is that that power is wide ranging and open to interpretation. We share that concern and do not want a situation to arise in which recommendations for civil justice reforms are contained in the council because there is no duty to involve ministers, and therefore parliamentary scrutiny, in that process.
At stage 2, the cabinet secretary stated that the amendment was “unnecessary”, as the council’s duty to advise the Lord President should be understood in the context of
“the Lord President’s statutory functions ... ‘for making and maintaining arrangements for securing the efficient disposal of business in the Scottish courts.’”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 13 November 2012; c 1991.]
However, those statutory functions in themselves do little to clarify the uncertainty that the bill creates.
We believe that, by placing the obligation of the council to the Scottish ministers on an equal footing with its obligation to the Lord President, we can ensure that the bill maintains the principle that civil justice policy is the privilege of ministers to make and Parliament to scrutinise.
The second part of the amendment puts a duty on the council to actively consider how to make the civil justice system in Scotland fairer, more accessible and more efficient.
Throughout the evidence-taking sessions, the committee found that accessibility and fairness are still major barriers that are experienced by those entering or operating in the civil justice system. It is only right, therefore, that we use the opportunity, with the creation of the new council, to put accessibility and fairness at the forefront of its considerations. It is, after all, court users who are paying for the council through an increase in their fees.
To sum up, amendments 9, 10 and 12 will remove much of the uncertainty that the bill creates in relation to responsibility for the civil justice system and will ensure that court users are at the forefront of the work that the council undertakes.
I move amendment 9.
I should explain to the chamber that my colleague Margaret Mitchell has been involved in all the proceedings on the bill. Sadly, her mother died recently and she is unable to take part in the debate today. That might ensure that my contributions are marked by brevity.
We are not without sympathy for the amendments in the name of Jenny Marra. I note in particular her desire, in amendment 9, to compel the Scottish civil justice council to provide advice to ministers. That is the nub of the issue. To me, it would be much more interesting to compel the advice not to be given but to be taken. However, no statute is ever going to achieve that.
We should accept that the body, as constituted, is a responsible body. We feel that the proposal in amendment 9 would introduce an unwelcome encumbrance and an additional obligation that we think is unnecessary, as other sections of the bill seek to cover the issues that Jenny Marra is concerned about. For those reasons, we will not support her amendment.
Jenny Marra raises an important constitutional issue, and I appreciate her desire to ensure that the Parliament and Government remain the determinants of civil justice policy. However, the council will be predominantly an advisory body that will advise the Lord President on improvements to the civil justice system to assist him in the discharge of the statutory responsibilities that he already has. The council will also assist the Court of Session by preparing draft rules of court. The bill provides that the council “may” advise ministers, and I see no need to compel it to do so. Parliament and ministers can take the council’s advice into account if we so wish.
As I stated during the stage 2 proceedings, when similar amendments by Jenny Marra were considered, nothing in the bill will affect the capacity of the executive, the legislature and the judiciary to continue to make those decisions that appropriately rest with them. I understand that the Lord President also made that clear when he appeared before the Justice Committee to discuss the bill. Therefore, I hope that the Parliament will be reassured that, upon the creation of the council, the Government will remain the body responsible—and responsible to Parliament—for the development of wider justice policy. Ms Marra has said previously that the bill should be beyond interpretation on that matter; I believe that it is and that it is appropriate that responsibility for the council rests with the Lord President, as is provided for in the bill.
At stage 2, Margaret Mitchell moved an amendment with the purpose of clarifying that the bill will not require ministers to consult the council on policy matters. That amendment was withdrawn following my assurances that nothing in the bill will interfere with the powers of ministers or Parliament. I submit that Ms Marra’s amendments, which would require the council to advise ministers at their request, would in fact introduce an element of doubt by suggesting that the council must consider matters that properly sit with ministers or Parliament.
With regard to Jenny Marra’s proposal to place a duty on the council
“to consider how to make the civil justice system more accessible, fair and efficient”,
the bill already provides that the council must have regard to the principle that
“the civil justice system should be fair, accessible and efficient”.
That guiding principle, I believe, goes further than the provision in Jenny Marra’s amendment 9.
Therefore, I urge Jenny Marra to withdraw amendment 9 and not to move amendments 10 and 12.
It is for the avoidance of doubt and for further clarification that I have lodged the amendments.
For the reasons that I explained in my opening remarks, I intend to press amendment 9.
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. As this is the first division, I will suspend the meeting for five minutes.
14:57
Meeting suspended.
15:02
On resuming—
We will now proceed with the division on amendment 9.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 41, Against 77, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 9 disagreed to.
Amendment 10 moved—[Jenny Marra].
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 78, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 10 disagreed to.
Group 2 is on the preparation of rules by the council. Amendment 11, in the name of Jenny Marra, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 11 would oblige the council to consult on changes to the rules of court. I pressed a similar amendment at stage 2 and move amendment 11 today because I have not heard convincing arguments from the Scottish Government as to why the council should not be obliged to consult.
As I said at stage 2, several organisations that represent court users in Scotland, such as Scottish Women’s Aid, have said that the opportunity to engage on the proposed changes would ensure that those changes provide a better service. Similarly, I argued that the council would benefit from a wider range of views on proposed changes, as it would be able to make more informed decisions.
In response, the cabinet secretary stated that, in many cases, rules make technical changes to give effect to subordinate or primary legislation and, for that reason, it is undesirable to consult. However, the rules of court can make substantive changes to the advice and assistance that organisations give to court users and, too often, such organisations feel that they have not had the opportunity to engage with the process.
Labour members still believe that a statutory obligation to consult would ensure that the council is as open and transparent as it can be, making much easier a job that is often difficult for organisations such as Women’s Aid.
I move amendment 11.
Amendment 11 would place a duty on the council to consult. The bill currently gives the council flexibility in that regard. The council will have broad powers to consult on any issue within its remit.
Consultation is not an unknown practice to the existing rules councils, but the new council, with new functions and powers, will operate in a more inclusive manner. I reassure members that the council will not operate as a closed shop. Indeed, I do not think that the bill, which opens up the current arrangements significantly, would allow that to happen. Therefore, it would be disproportionate and undesirable to require the council to consult prior to preparing every set of rules.
In many cases, rules will introduce technical changes purely to give effect to primary or subordinate legalisation, the subject matter of which may already have been subject to extensive consultation and will already have been considered by the Parliament. Occasionally, rules may need to be changed urgently to correct some defect that has become apparent, perhaps by a judicial ruling.
I know that many organisations, such as Citizens Advice Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid, wish to engage with the council to help it to deliver improvements to the Scottish civil justice system. Those are exactly the types of organisation that I expect will field candidates for membership of the council and with which the council will wish to engage.
I assure the Parliament that there will be scope for all kinds of individuals and organisations to contribute to the council’s work through its committees, through consultation and, indeed, by carrying out research. The power to commission research was the subject of an amendment in the name of Jenny Marra at stage 2. That power will aid the council in its role of reviewing, and advising on improvements to, the civil justice system, and I was more than happy to support its inclusion in the bill.
I expect, and the Lord President has indicated, that the council will depend heavily on its committees, where I imagine much of its day-to-day work will be carried out. It will consult more widely when it is appropriate to do so.
As I stated when Jenny Marra’s stage 2 amendment came before the Justice Committee, the broad power to consult is sufficient and therefore I do not consider it necessary to place upon the council the inflexible statutory duty that is contained in amendment 11.
I urge Jenny Marra to withdraw amendment 11.
We are keen to have the statutory duties to which the cabinet secretary refers because they offer the public the most protection. He talks about last-minute changes to the rules, but it is exactly such changes that can lead to unintended consequences. I urge him to reconsider and support amendment 11 to make the consultation process fair and transparent.
I press amendment 11.
The question is, that amendment 11 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 78, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 11 disagreed to.
Section 3—Powers of the Council
Amendment 12 not moved.
Section 6—Composition of the Council
Group 3 is on the composition of the council. Amendment 13, in the name of Jenny Marra, is grouped with amendments 14 to 21.
With the exception of amendment 17, the amendments in this group seek to open up the council’s main decision-making body to increased lay representation.
Amendment 13 affords the council at least two but not more than four judicial members, and amendments 14 and 15 settle the number of advocate and solicitor members of the council to two each, instead of “at least” two. Those amendments make way for amendment 16, which significantly bolsters lay representation on the council to include those who have
“experience and knowledge of consumer affairs ... persons with knowledge of the non-commercial legal advice sector, and persons able to represent the interests of different categories of litigant.”
Amendments 18 to 21 are technical.
As was mentioned at stage 2, we have the opportunity to open up our judicial decision-making structures to a significant number of different parties that cannot currently contribute in as meaningful a way as they would like. As members of the Justice Committee discovered while we were taking evidence, many organisations work directly with litigants and are constantly frustrated by the way in which decision-making councils create rules that do not fully consider the needs of litigants when implemented. It is our belief that amendments 13 to 16 and 18 to 21 provide a reasonable compromise between the need for legal expertise on the one hand and the need for expertise in a significant number of related fields on the other.
In relation to the concern that increasing lay representation would put technical rule changes at risk of not being fully understood, I argued at stage 2 that lay organisations have legally trained staff who can bring the suitable legal knowledge and insight to make a valuable contribution. In response, the cabinet secretary said he would reflect on that point, but unfortunately it appears that there is no willingness to take action. I encourage him to reflect further today.
Amendment 17 seeks to ensure that the gender balance of the council is equitable. I have heard no good reason why we should not take action to rectify a legal system whose decision-making bodies are intrinsically skewed in their gender balance. As I stated at stage 2, the Scottish Law Commission board comprises 80 per cent men, the Judicial Appointments Board for Scotland comprises 70 per cent men, and the Scottish Court Service board is 68 per cent male. It simply is not good enough to pay lip service to the need for greater gender parity and then sit back in the face of such facts without doing what we can—and what we can do quite simply—to rectify the situation.
In many instances, our courts and justice system have a wider and more disproportionate impact on women. I believe that it would show foresight on behalf of the Scottish Government if we could finally recognise the part that we have in ensuring that the burden is made easier.
I move amendment 13.
15:15
I have listened with care to Jenny Marra but find it difficult to support what she is seeking to achieve. However well intended, her amendments become restrictive and introduce inflexibility and, given that they are all roughly in the same vein, my party is not minded to support any of them.
Although I have every sympathy with what Jenny Marra is trying to achieve with her amendments on a gender quota, I simply do not think that that is an appropriate measure to introduce with regard to the council. Female talent in Scotland, particularly in the legal profession, is manifest. I am sure that that will become obvious and that the Lord President will be particularly mindful of his obligation to ensure true representation on the council.
When the Justice Committee took evidence on the council’s membership, the Lord President assured members that a wide range of interests and users would be represented via his own LP appointment. Although I do not doubt that, I would prefer that the council had from the outset a diverse range of members that properly reflected end users and therefore share Jenny Marra’s desire for greater lay representation.
I do not accept the view expressed, at least in committee, that we need a two-stage process for the council in which full lay membership would be drawn in only later. I therefore think that amendment 16 would bring a reasonable balance to the membership and we will support it.
I also support the intention behind amendment 17, which relates to gender balance. Members will know that until recently I have been very reluctant to argue for quotas but it is very clear that voluntary action is not working. If we considered taking this small step forward whenever we set up new bodies, we might finally make some progress.
Although a number of organisations believe that they should have a mandatory position on the council, including the Association of British Insurers and the Forum of Scottish Claims Managers, with which I have dealings, we will get into problems if we start to specify one over the other. As we know, the Lord President believes that initially a key role of the council will be technical drafting and I believe that it is right to give him flexibility and not preclude him from appointing whomever he wants to take on this early task. As has been suggested, we can change the mandatory appointments by statutory instrument and, declaring an interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates, I think that it is right that advocates and solicitors are not precluded from any of the LP appointments.
I will first address Jenny Marra’s amendments on the categories and levels of membership, which would fundamentally alter the council’s membership by increasing the mandatory minimum membership from 14 to 18 and seek to provide that none of the Lord President’s discretionary appointments may be judges or practising solicitors and advocates. At stage 2, Jenny Marra said:
“many organisations with legally trained personnel would bring both the necessary ... knowledge and insight ... to the council.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 13 November 2012; c 1997.]
I agree, but her amendments would mean that a large number of very suitable candidates including lawyers working for voluntary organisations or consumer bodies or academics who also practise could not sit on the council. Although members of the profession, such individuals would not be able to sit on the body as its representatives.
The issue was the subject of some discussion at stage 2 and having reflected on the matter, as I undertook to do, I remain of the view that the bill with its provision for flexible appointments strikes the right balance and will allow the council to take account of the range of interests in civil justice and technical expertise for its detailed work without creating an unduly large and unwieldy body.
Civil justice issues are important to many different people and organisations across Scotland and I have been contacted by a range of groups, including the judiciary, the legal profession and the insurance industry, that wish to be better represented on the council. Indeed, I recall David McLetchie at stage 1 questioning whether there should be more solicitor members.
I agree that benefits to court users and the public should be core to the council’s work, and I welcome and encourage lay input. The bill guarantees that representatives on the council will have
“experience and knowledge of consumer affairs ... and ... awareness of the interests of litigants”;
furthermore, the bill now allows for a lay deputy chair.
The council will initially be responsible for implementing the many procedural changes that will be required to effect civil courts reform. It will later focus on reviewing and developing the civil justice system. Its membership must be able to reflect both roles. As a result, the bill provides for an appropriate balance of expertise on both court rules and policy issues. It also allows the council to evolve over time as it moves from its rule-drafting focus. If that evolution does not occur, ministers will be able, with Parliament’s approval, to amend the membership levels.
It is simply not possible to give a seat on the council to all those who wish one. It would be unrealistic to do so and to expect the council to function effectively. However, I have discussed the fact that membership of the council is not the only means by which someone can have a voice in its activities. I take the view that the lack of consensus around the issue indicates the need for flexibility, and believe that that is achieved by allowing the Lord President the discretion that is provided for. The amendments would deprive the council of the flexibility and capability that are necessary for it to carry out its functions effectively.
The subject matter of amendment 17 has been debated previously in relation to the council and other bodies. I remain of the view that equality of opportunity for women, men and other groups must be addressed, but I am not persuaded that quotas for specialist expert bodies are the right approach.
At stage 1, both Alison McInnes and Malcolm Chisholm asked that I consider the issue of transparency in appointments. Having reflected at stage 2, I proposed to insert the principles that appointments are to be made fairly and are to be open to all eligible persons, and the Justice Committee agreed with that. I hope that that will go some way to addressing some of Ms Marra’s concerns.
I urge Ms Marra to withdraw amendment 13 and not to move amendments 14 to 21.
I feel quite strongly that exactly the same principle is at stake in respect of the amendments relating to the council’s composition and the amendment that relates to gender. To date, such flexible appointments have favoured the status quo. It is our role as legislators to allow everyone to be represented on such councils and to ensure a fair balance of gender representation in our public bodies, which are in charge of decisions that affect everyone in Scotland. It is our job as legislators to be progressive. The measures are simple. They are not difficult for the Scottish Government to implement, and they would be progressive.
On the gender amendment, as I have said before in the chamber, the Scottish National Party is very willing to talk the talk on being progressive, but it is very reluctant to walk the walk.
I ask the cabinet secretary to reconsider his position on the amendments.
Are you pressing amendment 13?
Yes.
The question is, that amendment 13 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 13 disagreed to.
Amendment 14 moved—[Jenny Marra].
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 41, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 14 disagreed to.
Amendment 15 moved—[Jenny Marra].
The question is, that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 43, Against 76, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 15 disagreed to.
Amendment 16 moved—[Jenny Marra].
The question is, that amendment 16 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 75, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 16 disagreed to.
Section 7—Lord President appointment process
Amendment 17 moved—[Jenny Marra].
The question is, that amendment 17 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 42, Against 77, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 17 disagreed to.
Amendments 18 and 19 not moved.
Section 9—Disqualification and removal from office
Amendment 20 not moved.
Section 10—Expenses and remuneration
Amendment 21 not moved.
Section 12—Proceedings
We move to group 4, on council proceedings in public. Amendment 22, in the name of Jenny Marra, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 22 would ensure that the meetings of the council and its committees are held in public, with agendas, papers and reports being published for public view. I pressed the amendment at stage 2 and was urged by Kenny MacAskill to reject it on the grounds that a room might not be available in our court service to facilitate public access to such meetings and that the council is merely advisory.
Unfortunately, I see those arguments as incredibly weak and they do not stack up. On the practicality, I do not believe that the Scottish Court Service would have a problem finding a room for public access to these meetings; and if there is concern about holding open and frank discussions in the way that advisory bodies often have to do, those fears are allayed by subsection (3B) in amendment 22, which affords the council the option of holding proceedings in private in such situations.
Holding our institutions to the highest standard of public scrutiny is an aim that we should all be united behind and that we should actively promote in our legislation. Putting in place these measures would ensure that lay organisations, litigants and the wider public were more informed about proposed changes to our civil justice system. I see no reason why the amendment should not be accepted by the Scottish Government.
I move amendment 22.
15:30
As we have reached the agreed time limit, under Rule 9.8.4A, I consider it necessary to allow the debate on this group to continue beyond the limit in order to avoid the debate being unreasonably curtailed.
It is only right that Jenny Marra’s persistence, tenacity and fortitude be rewarded, so it is with pleasure that I intimate that my party will support amendment 22.
Jenny Marra makes a good point. As far as I can see, the thrust of part 1 of the bill is about transparency, openness and involving other people. If it is the case that the Scottish Government’s excuse in not accepting that is a lack of accommodation, that seems less than lame. Bring the council here—it would be lovely to have it and we could all watch the proceedings.
Jenny Marra is correct that certain public bodies should hold proceedings publicly. Nevertheless, I am not persuaded that the council must do so.
The council, which is essentially advisory in nature, differs from bodies that are required to hold proceedings in public. As explained to the Justice Committee at stage 2, local police or fire boards, for example, have different purposes and functions from those of the proposed council. Where bodies are responsible for service delivery or the allocation of public funds, a right of access is appropriate. Although the council will consider important issues, it is not a final decision maker.
That said, I have taken care to ensure that appropriate transparency and accountability apply to council proceedings. The council will lay annual reports and business plans before Parliament; if Parliament wishes to consider publicly any of the issues raised, it will. Court rules are already laid before Parliament and published, and Parliament’s consideration of rules is a matter of public record.
Although the existing councils do not meet in public, they publish minutes of their proceedings online. The Lord President has assured me that he intends the new council to be more proactive in that regard. More important, freedom of information coverage will be extended to both the new council and the Criminal Court Rules Council. Subordinate legislation will soon be brought to Parliament in that regard and will provide for more robust arrangements, as the discretion in Ms Marra’s amendment will not apply.
The issues with regard to practicality are not insignificant. Suitable arrangements, particularly for potentially costly accommodation, would need to be put in place. That said, the council may hold public meetings if it wishes to do so. Those who have called for greater accountability are, I imagine, exactly those people who might become council or committee members. I therefore hope that members will agree that the matter can be left to the council to decide.
I urge Jenny Marra to withdraw her amendment.
The cabinet secretary said that it should be left to the council to decide, but it is our role in Parliament to make the best legislation that we possibly can and to put down rules that will go beyond the tenure of any Lord President.
It is the sign of a strong Government that it welcomes scrutiny and transparency. The Scottish Government’s unwillingness to accept amendment 22 is part of a growing trend for the SNP to move not only an increasing amount of committee business into private session, but an increasing amount of business into private session in councils across the country.
I press amendment 22.
The question is, that amendment 22 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Conservativestance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 54, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 22 disagreed to.
Section 19—Clients’ contributions for criminal assistance by way of representation
We move on to group 5, on determining liability for contributions. Amendment 1, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 2 and 24.
Amendments 1 and 2 have the effect of raising from £68 to £82 the threshold for disposable income above which a contribution to criminal legal aid will be made. The amendments reflect the concern of members and the Law Society of Scotland that a threshold of £68 might compromise access to justice. I made it clear to the Justice Committee during stage 2 that I would be happy to reconsider the threshold; amendments 1 and 2 are the outcome of that consideration. The impact of the change is that we expect that 88 per cent of applicants will make no contribution to their criminal legal aid fee—that is an increase from 82 per cent under the original proposal.
I intend to make the same change to thresholds for civil legal aid, to preserve the important principle that so far as is practicable there should be parity of treatment between civil and criminal legal aid. The bill, of course, is not about civil legal aid, so I intend to make the change using the existing powers in the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1986.
We are working with the Scottish Legal Aid Board and the Law Society to finalise the resultant adjustment to the calculation tables that appear in the current draft regulations. The intention is to ensure that people at the lower end of the disposable income scale benefit from the change, albeit marginally in some cases. The contributions of people in the middle of the scale will stay at about the same level; people at the top end will likely see a slight increase in their contributions. The change will benefit lawyers, who will see a reduction in the number of clients from whom they need to collect contributions, and a smaller contribution will be due from clients who have a lower disposable income.
Amendment 24 would amend the planned arrangements for dealing with the income and expenditure of partners when assessing a person’s contribution. It would supplement provision in the 1986 act for how disposable income and disposable capital should be determined.
Our detailed proposals for how disposable income and disposable capital should be determined were set out in the draft regulations that we provided to the Justice Committee before stage 2. The approach mirrors the approach that is used for advice and assistance in civil legal aid. The proper place for such detail is in regulations, which can be adapted and improved, in line with emerging needs. Of course, future changes to regulations are subject to the parliamentary process.
The provisions in the current draft regulations allow for spousal or partner income to be considered as part of the contributions assessment; the provisions also allow for appropriate discounting of relevant income and the disregard of appropriate expenditure. Allowances are available for a spouse or partner and dependent children. In addition, there will be no consideration of spousal or partner income if any of the following apply: the spouse or partner has “a contrary interest” in the matter for which criminal legal aid is sought; the spouses or partners are “living separate and apart”; or it would be “inequitable or impractical” to consider spousal or partner income.
In determining disposable capital, the draft regulations disregard such things as the value of the home, furniture and furnishings, which tend to be couples’ main capital assets. The draft regulations provide for a fair and equitable means of assessing what should be considered. The partner of a person who is charged with domestic abuse should not and will not have their resources taken into account in assessing a criminal legal aid contribution.
There is a degree of flexibility and pragmatism in the draft regulations, which is not reflected in amendment 24. That reinforces the point that such matters are best dealt with in regulations, not primary legislation. I ask members to support amendments 1 and 2, in my name, and to oppose amendment 24.
I move amendment 1.
Margaret Mitchell is not in the chamber, for understandable reasons. However, I understand that Annabel Goldie intends to move the amendments in Margaret Mitchell’s name.
I will speak to the minister’s amendments 1 and 2 and speak to and move Margaret Mitchell’s amendment 24.
First, on amendments 1 and 2, I am glad that the cabinet secretary has yielded to his metaphorical beating over the head and made what was a poor situation somewhat better. My party will support those two amendments.
Amendment 24 seeks to protect individuals on low incomes who happen to have a spouse or partner. The policy memorandum to the bill makes it clear that the resources of spouses and partners will be taken into account when financial eligibility is assessed, in most cases. As the minister said, there will be exceptions where the spouse or partner has a contrary interest in the case—they could be a co-accused or a witness—or where they are living separately and apart. However, any practising solicitor will tell us that ascertaining a spouse’s or partner’s income accurately and swiftly can present formidable problems.
My colleague Margaret Mitchell’s amendment prohibits regulations that would allow a spouse’s or partner’s income to be taken into account when disposable income is calculated, thereby simplifying the process for any accused who seeks criminal legal aid.
The amendments in the group take us to the heart of the weaknesses of part 2 of the bill, and particularly the reasons why we saw industrial action in our courts over the Christmas period. I am pleased that the justice secretary has told us today that he has conceded the point that the threshold that he initially set was far too low and that he has adjusted it upwards. When we considered the bill at stages 1 and 2, we did not dispute the principle that contributions should be made by those who can afford them; what we disputed was the impact on the poorest people in society. The removal of the estimated 6,000 people whose disposable income is between £68 and £82 is clearly welcome, so we will vote for amendments 1 and 2.
However, the justice secretary said that the cost of meeting that increased threshold is to be borne by those at the upper end of the criminal legal aid spectrum—people whose disposable income is still around £11,000 or £12,000 a year. Those are not wealthy people but the working poor, and they will bear the burden. I would be interested to hear from the minister when he sums up what he anticipates the impact will be on the number of people for whom the legal aid that is available becomes such a token amount that it is easier for them to remove themselves from the legal aid system altogether.
Margaret Mitchell’s amendment 24 addresses another issue that existed in the bill as introduced. Under the current assistance by way of representation system, only the income of the legal aid applicant is considered. We believe that it would be wrong to change that in the way that the cabinet secretary proposes, and for that reason we will support amendment 24.
Clearly, £82 is a bit better than £68, but it is not much better. It is important to put that on the record in the context of this debate. We should remember what disposable income is; it is not for luxuries. It includes, for example, the money that people spend on food. If someone has a largish family, food can take up quite a lot, if not most, of that £82.
Today, once again, the cabinet secretary is making a great deal of the parallel between civil legal aid and criminal legal aid. He wants to align everything. The fact is that he is doing the opposite with the next group of amendments, on contributions, but I will leave that until we discuss them. He wants to have the same treatment for civil legal aid and criminal legal aid, and he has repeatedly—although thankfully not today—used the example of domestic abuse. That has been a good debating point for him, but he cannot build an argument on one example. I do not think that any woman who is a victim of domestic abuse or violence should have to pay any contributions, so I do not think that that is a valid argument for saying that civil legal aid is exactly the same as criminal legal aid.
The situation is different when the state is against the person, they have no choice and—crucially—they may well be innocent. In this argument, we are forgetting that many people who are accused end up being found to be innocent. That is relevant to Graeme Pearson’s amendment 23, which we will discuss later.
The problem with the bill is that it has been entirely driven by finance. We all understand the financial difficulties that the Government faces, but the sums of money in question are not enormous sums and they cannot override the paramount interests of justice. The cabinet secretary has been forced to modify a very bad bill so that it ends up as simply a bad bill, but that does not alter the fact that it is still bad.
15:45
I appreciate Ms Goldie’s points, but I do not believe that they are matters for the face of the bill. Historically, such matters have been dealt with by regulation.
Amendment 1 agreed to.
Section 20—Contributions for criminal legal aid
Amendment 2 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
We move to group 6, on the collection and treatment of contributions. Amendment 3, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 4 to 7, 7A and 8.
My amendments 3 to 8 relate to the collection and treatment of contributions. Amendments 3, 5 and 6 make technical adjustments in relation to appeals on behalf of deceased persons under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. Provisions in section 21 of the bill would allow a contribution in those appeals to be assessed on the basis of the disposable income and capital of either the deceased person or the authorised person taking forward the appeal. Amendments 3, 5 and 6 clarify that it is for the Scottish Legal Aid Board to collect and determine the amount of contribution due in those cases separately from the system in place in sections 19 and 20 for determining contributions for other criminal proceedings.
Appeals on behalf of deceased persons are very rare. It has always been the intention of the Scottish Government that the board would collect any such contributions. The bill does not expressly state that, and the opportunity has been taken to put the board’s responsibility beyond doubt by lodging amendment 5. Amendment 6 is consequential on amendment 5, preventing collection in the appeals being undone by regulations. Amendments 4 and 8 clarify the ranking provisions in the bill and those already in the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1986 about the order in which solicitors get paid. Amendment 3 reflects that, because contributions for appeals on the behalf of deceased persons are collected by the board, they do not fall into the ranking provisions. The amendments clarify that the ranking provisions apply only when the solicitor is responsible for collection. In those cases, the solicitor is paid the net fee from the Scottish legal aid fund; any contribution payable is not included. In cases where the board is responsible for collection, the fee payable is gross and the contribution payable is included.
Amendment 7 delivers the agreement made with the board and the Law Society of Scotland that the board would be able to provide a collection service for solicitors. The amendment gives ministers the power to require the board to provide a collection service on behalf of solicitors, regulating how any contribution collected should be passed on and the charge for providing the service.
Lewis Macdonald’s amendment 7A seems to seek to supplement my amendment 7 by adding that regulations should ensure that the board cannot charge a fee beyond the cost of recovery when providing a collection service for solicitors. I argue that the amendment is not necessary. The requirement that the charge should cover only reasonable recovery costs and the ability of ministers to regulate the board’s imposition of a charge are already contained in my amendment 7. It may be that amendment 7A seeks to allow recovery of the cost to the board as a whole rather than the cost in a given case. That kind of detail should be left for further discussion and agreement between the board and the profession. Further, the board must abide by the guidance set out in the “Scottish Public Finance Manual”, which sets out detailed guidance on the fees and charges to be applied by public bodies when providing services to other organisations or bodies. The mechanisms for public sponsorship ensure that the board must adhere to the “Scottish Public Finance Manual”. I therefore consider amendment 7A unnecessary and I urge Lewis Macdonald not to move it.
I move amendment 3.
Amendment 7A does indeed seek to amend amendment 7, in the name of Kenny MacAskill. It relates to the charges that can be imposed or the fees that can be set by the Scottish Legal Aid Board in return for collecting legal aid contributions on behalf of defence lawyers. This is not a matter of mere detail that should be left to the regulations or to future discussions. By suggesting that, I think that the cabinet secretary has put his finger on one of the fundamental flaws of the bill.
This is an extremely important piece of proposed legislation, as it will introduce the principle of contributions to criminal legal aid in a novel form. The bill should not simply give permission for regulations to be drawn up to address the details.
Although the Law Society of Scotland accepts the general propositions in amendment 7, many of the bar associations across Scotland do not. Many lawyers who are members of the Law Society and a bar association believe that the Scottish Legal Aid Board is best equipped to collect contributions to legal aid, given that it has years of experience of doing so on the civil side, as well as the infrastructure to do it.
The full cost recovery that is outlined in the Government’s amendment 7 is full cost recovery on a case-by-case basis. That will still leave individual lawyers exposed to the risk that clients will not pay their contributions and the risk that they will receive an open-ended bill from SLAB when collecting contributions racks up significant costs. The board has estimated that it would cost £600,000 annually for it to take responsibility for the collection of contributions. If it can come up with a definite figure for the cost of its services to solicitors, it is surely reasonable that the legislation should reflect that, and that it does not create the risk that open-ended charges will be imposed on lawyers who use the board’s services.
Amendment 7A would simply manage the financial risk to law firms by creating a set fee for the collection service instead of unspecified charges. That flat fee would, of course, reflect the costs incurred by SLAB in collecting the fees, and it could be calculated on the basis of the figures that it has not brought forward. I know that a flat fee for the collection of legal aid contributions would be welcomed by many people who are concerned about the approach that has been taken.
It seems to me that none of what the cabinet secretary said—he talked about detail and regulation—explains why a charge should be recovered on a case-by-case basis instead of having a fee that would apply across the board.
This is another area in which the cabinet secretary had to back down because he got things so badly wrong at the beginning. Part of the problem is that because the changes have been made so late, people do not yet know the detail of how the system will work in practice. That is why I support Lewis Macdonald’s amendment 7A. He is at least trying to provide some clarity and not leave things completely open ended.
Once again, we must state the fundamental objection to what is happening. I know that some members were a bit puzzled about my reference to the analogy between civil legal aid and criminal legal aid, but when I first read what was proposed, I wondered why on earth, when the Scottish Legal Aid Board collects—highly successfully—all the contributions for civil legal aid and has all the systems to do so, it should be treated completely differently when it comes to criminal legal aid. I have had no proper explanation of that, apart from the financial one.
Again, relatively small sums of money are involved, against which must be set the risks to the administration of justice. Some people might not be willing to pay for a lawyer, so they will not have one, and some lawyers might withdraw from the legal aid system because of the financial risk involved. Therefore, I think that there are still serious problems with the bill. It is clearly better than it was, but it is extremely important that we recognise that the alternative system that was proposed by the Opposition at the beginning of the process would have been a whole lot better.
Malcolm Chisholm did not have the benefit of hearing the answers that I gave, in committee, to the convener of the Justice Committee when I was asked whether such matters would be considered in respect of civil matters. I said that they would and that SLAB would be discussing them with the profession.
Given what amendment 7 says and the assurances that I have provided on what the “Scottish Public Finance Manual” states, I believe that amendment 7A is unnecessary.
Amendment 3 agreed to.
Amendment 4 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
Section 21—Contributions for appeals where appellant deceased
Amendment 5 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
After section 21
Group 7 is on the refund of contributions. Amendment 23, in the name of Graeme Pearson, is grouped with amendment 25.
Amendment 23 would deal with an oversight in drafting and with an element of unfairness. We often spend our time in the chamber trying to deliver fairness on behalf of Scotland’s citizens. When an accused person has been through a trial process and has been found not guilty, and when the judge refers to circumstances that suggest reservations about the conception that lay behind the prosecution, the accused can be satisfied that they leave court with their character unstained. However, their bank book will probably have been severely damaged from paying contributions towards their defence.
In a progressive—and, some might think, radical—fashion, amendment 23 offers a valuable way forward to provide fairness in our system. When an accused person has faced due process and been found not guilty, and when the judge delivers the view that the prosecution was ill conceived, it should be in the judge’s power to suggest that the accused’s contributions should be reimbursed. I hope that members across the chamber will support the amendment.
I move amendment 23.
I will speak to amendment 25, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, and briefly to amendment 23, in the name of Graeme Pearson. I have a lot of sympathy with what he is trying to achieve, but my reservation is that his amendment does not go far enough—certainly not as far as the amendment in my colleague Margaret Mitchell’s name.
My basic concern about Mr Pearson’s drafting of his amendment is that I am at a slight loss to know how any court would interpret the phrase
“it is in the interests of justice for the contribution to be refunded.”
My first question is this: whose justice would that be? Would it mean justice for the accused or for the taxpayer, or would it relate to the administration costs of the court system? Because of that concern, my party will abstain on amendment 23.
Amendment 25, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, would require that contributions be refunded in all cases of acquittal. Her amendment calls on the Scottish ministers to make, by regulations,
“arrangements for any contribution for criminal legal assistance due or paid by virtue of this Act to be remitted or refunded in a case where proceedings are concluded without the person from whom, or in respect of whom, the contribution was due or paid, being convicted.”
It is interesting that, if Parliament were to accept amendment 25, it would put us much more in line with England and Wales. I do not know why Scotland should be in an entirely different position.
I ask Parliament to support amendment 25.
One mark of a civilised society is how it treats people who are accused of crimes—particularly when we bear it in mind that many accused people are innocent. Amendments 23 and 25 focus on that point. The issue will be particularly important if the rest of the bill is agreed to, as earlier votes this afternoon suggest it will.
It is important that innocent people who have had to contribute to legal aid have that contribution reimbursed. Graeme Pearson’s words,
“in the interests of justice”,
suggest that reimbursement would almost invariably be the case. It seems to be completely unfair that someone who has a modest or low income should have to go to that expense but still, if they are found innocent, be out of pocket because of what could in many instances be a mistake that the state has made.
I know that the cabinet secretary will say that if contributions by people who have modest incomes are reimbursed, rich people who employ expensive advocates will also have to be reimbursed. That might be true in logic, but it is not true in practice. We all accept that, if people can afford to employ an expensive advocate, we will not be required to reimburse that cost. However, it is a perfectly reasonable proposition that contributions by people who receive legal aid should be reimbursed in most circumstances, if they are found innocent.
I have a great deal of sympathy for Graeme Pearson’s amendment 23, but we must be fair to all private clients, so I disagree strongly with Malcolm Chisholm. A general principle is at stake.
The bill deals with legal aid on its own, so to support amendment 23 would be inappropriate. However, I would like—and hope that I will get—assurance from the cabinet secretary that the issue will be kept under review.
16:00
The subject of refunding legal aid contributions in the event of acquittal was raised during evidence sessions, and the Justice Committee asked that the issue be given further consideration. In my response to the committee’s stage 1 report, I set out the complexities involved and the wider range of perspectives that I had considered.
The committee considered two stage 2 amendments that sought to introduce refunding of legal aid contributions, and such amendments have been lodged for consideration again now. The subject was the subject of some discussion at committee but, in the end, neither amendment was supported; in fact, Graeme Pearson withdrew his amendment.
The discussion at stage 2 reflected the complexity of the issue, which I suggest is not one for this bill—not least because any provisions that are made here today could not apply to any privately funded clients. That would lead to a differentiated and therefore fundamentally unfair criminal justice system.
It should be stressed that the recovery of costs in defending criminal proceedings has never been a feature of the Scottish criminal justice system. In England and Wales, recovery-of-costs applications are made to the Crown, and can be made by legal-aided and privately funded accused persons. Recovery is of all defence costs and not just legal aid contributions. It cuts both ways—the Crown may recover costs from a convicted defendant.
Here, there is no system of costs in first-instance Scottish criminal courts, either for those who are acquitted or for those who are convicted. To change that would be a huge and fundamental step that should not be taken without the fullest consideration of the potential impact.
Prosecution is undertaken in the public interest, on the basis of the test that is outlined in the prosecution code: that there is sufficient admissible evidence and that it is in the public interest to take action. That decision is made on the basis of information that the Crown receives from the police in the standard prosecution report and from witness statements. Sheriffs and justices of the peace do not see the information that the Crown receives from the police. That means that a case might appear on paper to be stronger than it does at an eventual trial.
An acquittal or conclusion of proceedings without conviction does not equate to a finding that it was not in the public interest to raise proceedings. The burden of proof on the Crown to succeed in criminal proceedings is rightly a high one—it is to establish proof beyond reasonable doubt. It would not be appropriate for costs to be a factor in the decision making of the Crown, or for such a perception to be possible.
Amendments 23 and 25 both seek to refund legal aid contributions, but seek to do so in different sets of circumstances. Amendment 23 would give the power for a court to order a refund or remission where a person has been acquitted, and where the court considers that to do so would be
“in the interests of justice”.
However, the amendment does not make clear the circumstances in which “the interests of justice” would merit the court using that discretion.
Amendment 25 would place a duty on the Scottish ministers to make regulations about arrangements for refunding or remitting a contribution that has been paid where proceedings do not conclude with a conviction.
I wish to highlight a number of practical difficulties with amendments 23 and 25. First, where there was judicial discretion, as per amendment 23, it Is unclear what would happen in cases where a court chose not to refund on acquittal. Would the person be able to appeal the decision? Would they feel that their acquittal was being publicly doubted?
Secondly, where the refund could be made in any case where the accused was not convicted, as per amendment 25, there are many circumstances in which a case will conclude without a conviction. For example, a case may be deserted because of evidence coming to light during the trial. Where a case is dropped because a witness fails to attend, perhaps because they were intimidated or frightened by the prospect of giving evidence, the accused person would receive a refund. Are those the circumstances that amendment 25 envisages?
In respect of both amendments 23 and 25, it is unclear who would have responsibility for the refund. There is no scope under the bill to consider privately funded clients, who would not receive a refund under either amendment. Those points were raised during the stage 2 discussion, but it seems that neither has been addressed today.
Although I understand the concerns that have been expressed, I cannot support amendments 23 and 25. Even in their own terms, they raise many practical problems. They also risk making a fundamental change to the justice system in Scotland, with unclear consequences, and we surely cannot have a system where the many people who pay all their defence costs can have no expectation of reimbursement while those who pay only some of their costs are treated differently. I invite members not to support amendments 23 or 25.
The cabinet secretary mentioned differentiation in the way that justice is applied in Scotland. Throughout history, there has always been differentiation in the application of justice. In this chamber, we try to improve sections of our justice system and to develop it in a progressive and sometimes radical fashion, as I said earlier.
The argument that we have heard is that we will end up giving back money to people who, for some reason or other, might not justifiably receive cash at the end of their prosecution. Amendment 23 in my name indicates that that would be a matter for the discretion of the judge, who would have heard all the circumstances, would know the background and would, I suggest, decide that funds should be reimbursed in only extremely unusual circumstances.
Members should bear in mind that those who would be reimbursed would on many occasions be those who are in most need of the finance in their family budgets.
I agree that Margaret Mitchell’s amendment 25 opens up a range of challenges and options that we do not fully understand at this time.
I hope that members will support amendment 23.
The question is, that amendment 23 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 40, Against 65, Abstentions 11.
Amendment 23 disagreed to.
Section 22—Regulations about contributions for criminal legal assistance
Amendment 6 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
Amendment 7 moved—[Kenny MacAskill].
Amendment 7A moved—[Lewis Macdonald].
The question is, that amendment 7A be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 53, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 7A disagreed to.
Amendment 7 agreed to.
Amendment 24 moved—[Annabel Goldie].
The question is, that amendment 24 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 51, Against 62, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 24 disagreed to.
Amendment 25 moved—[Annabel Goldie].
The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Abstentions
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 14, Against 66, Abstentions 35.
Amendment 25 disagreed to.
After section 22
We move to group 8. Amendment 26, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, is grouped with amendment 27. I invite Annabel Goldie to speak to both amendments and to move amendment 26.
By any measure—as has already emerged from today’s debates, in particular from Malcolm Chisholm’s speech—the bill is, at the very least, controversial. We know that it has raised passions outside Parliament and within it.
Amendment 26 seeks to require the Scottish ministers to lay before Parliament a report on the impact on solicitors of requiring them to collect contributions under the bill. Under the amendment, a first report would be required soon after the introduction of the requirement to collect contributions, with subsequent reports being required every three years.
Amendment 27 would introduce a second, wider review provision, which would require the Scottish ministers to lay before Parliament every three years a report on the operation and effect of part 2 of the bill. The amendment is framed in such a way that the period would begin on the day on which the provisions of part 2 first came into force.
Amendments 26 and 27 have been triggered by universal concern about aspects of the bill, including how it has been drafted and the requirements that it will create. There has been reaction from many sectors of society outside Parliament—not least, from the legal profession and, in particular, from those who are at the coalface of giving advice to clients under our criminal justice system.
16:15
Amendments 26 and 27 are a welcome breath of fresh air. To be frank, I cannot see what the Scottish Government is afraid of. If, as the cabinet secretary has asserted, the bill is a Rolls-Royce vehicle for the administration of criminal justice in Scotland, he can anticipate glowing responses to the reviews. On the other hand, if he has got it wrong and all is not well, at least the amendments will afford an opportunity for Parliament and the rest of Scottish society to take a view on what is happening. If the responses to the reviews were negative, that could trigger appropriate action in Parliament. I urge Parliament to support amendments 26 and 27, which are in Margaret Mitchell’s name.
I move amendment 26.
Annabel Goldie makes a strong case for amendments 26 and 27. The Justice Committee’s discussion of implementation of part 2 occasioned a great deal of controversy and there is no doubt that there is uncertainty about the efficacy of the cabinet secretary’s proposals. I agree with Miss Goldie that there seems to be nothing to spook the Government in amendments 26 and 27. I hope that the cabinet secretary will welcome a first-year review and a review every three years thereafter.
The changes in legal aid provision have caused a great deal of concern in the legal profession. As the changes come alongside wider changes that might affect courts and other elements of the justice system, it must be proper that we keep a weather eye on them and know, at the earliest opportunity, whether they are working well. I support amendments 26 and 27.
Amendments 26 and 27 would place on a legislative basis review of the impact of the proposals in part 2. I have already made a firm commitment to the Justice Committee to review within three years the impact of the proposals in part 2 and to present the outcome of that review to Parliament.
Further, the Scottish Legal Aid Board has a statutory duty to monitor the accessibility and availability of legal services; the impact of the bill will be kept under review as part of that duty.
Also, the bill provides the Scottish ministers with the ability to seek by regulations swift adjustment of the details of the new process. I expect that Scottish Government and SLAB officials will liaise on how part 2 is operating and the need for any adjustments.
Although I understand the intention behind amendments 26 and 27, I do not agree that we need to legislate to achieve their aim. There is the risk that what we now consider to be the key areas of importance in the new process will not be areas of concern in the future. Amendment 26, which relates to regulations that will be made under proposed new section 33ZA of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1986, would require the Scottish ministers to report on “collection rates of contributions” and “the income of solicitors”. A large proportion of that information would be available to the Scottish ministers only at the discretion of firms. Moreover, a great many factors affect solicitors’ income that are not attributable to the bill’s provisions.
To tie down the timeframe would also present difficulties. Flexibility in the timing might be necessary, perhaps to include other developing issues, or because adjustments that are made through regulations need time to bed down. Moreover, in relation to provision in regulations about collections, it appears that amendment 26 would require reporting on two separate occasions for each set of regulations, which would be a rather onerous requirement. Amendment 27, which relates to part 2 as a whole, would require that a report be laid indefinitely every three years, which might prove to be disproportionate.
As was mentioned during consideration of similar amendments at stage 2, the Justice Committee can at any time consider the implementation of enacted legislation and carry out post-legislative scrutiny. Taking that into account, along with my commitment to carrying out a review, I am not of the view that reporting need be enshrined in primary legislation, so I invite members to oppose amendments 26 and 27.
The cabinet secretary’s response is predictable, but not persuasive. On his concern about the wider income of solicitors or firms of solicitors, amendment 26 is specific in that it is about collection of the contributions.
The cabinet secretary fails to understand the widespread disquiet that has surrounded the bill and the specific need to reassure not only solicitors who practise criminal law but broad sectors of civic society in Scotland, especially people who may be victims of the proposed legislation when they find themselves as accused persons without the means of paying for their defence at the inception of proceedings—a critical time at which they need to do that.
The difference between accepting and rejecting amendments 26 and 27 is the difference between slamming the door shut on fresh air blowing through the process, and keeping the door open. I urge members to support the amendments and to keep the door open.
The question is, that amendment 26 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 26 disagreed to.
Section 23—Consequential modifications
Amendment 8 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
After section 23
Amendment 27 moved—[Annabel Goldie].
The question is, that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 27 disagreed to.
That ends consideration of amendments.