Plenary, 16 Dec 1999

Meeting date: Thursday, December 16, 1999

Official Report 891KB pdf

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Question Time

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SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

We begin this afternoon with question time. I remind members of the requirement of the standing order that supplementary questions should be brief and relate to the same matter as the original question.

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail what specific matters of mutual interest were discussed at the last meeting between the First Minister and the Prime Minister and what specific matters will be discussed at the next meeting. (S1O-845) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): That question is a very minor variation on a theme. Dennis Canavan will realise that the specific details of those discussions are private. However, I can tell him that I will meet the Prime Minister tomorrow at the first British-Irish Council meeting. That might give him something of a clue about at least one of the things that we might discuss.

Will the First Minister comment on reports that Tony Blair did not even consult him before rejecting Monsieur Jospin's offer to allow some Scottish beef into the French market? Is it not about time that the First Minister stood up for the rights of the people of Scotland, instead of allowing a Downing Street spin-doctor to state that there was no need for Tony to consult Donald, because he knew that Donald would agree with him without being asked?

Order. We have had the question.

Is the First Minister a man or a puppet?

I will take the question seriously, although the way in which it was wrapped up does not encourage me to do so. There was never any formal or specific offer to exempt Scotland and Scottish beef from the import ban that was imposed by the French. There were long discussions, during which the Prime Minister's commitment to getting the beef ban raised was enormously impressive.

As I understand it, Premier Jospin was arguing the case for the certified herd scheme, and was encouraging us to abandon the date-based export scheme. That would have been a disaster not just for Scottish beef producers, but for beef producers in other parts of the United Kingdom. If Dennis Canavan does not want to take my word for that, I hope that he will accept the view of the National Farmers Union in Scotland, which has rightly said that the suggestion was a disgraceful nonsense and a total irrelevance to the real needs of the industry.

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Housing Partnership Initiative

To ask the Scottish Executive what statutory requirements it will put in place to ensure that new landlords responsible for ex-council housing stock following its transfer under the new housing partnership initiative will be obliged to make provision for homeless people when local authority stock is transferred. (S1O-857)

The homelessness task force is currently considering what steps are required to ensure that the homeless are housed by successor landlords to local authorities. I expect to receive those recommendations in the new year, in time for the inclusion of any legislative proposals in the forthcoming legislation.

In light of Shelter Scotland's report this morning that 4,000 children will be homeless over Christmas, what plans does the Executive have to ensure that the new housing partnership process will not only maintain homeless people's rights, but will improve and increase provision?

As I said, I expect proposals for legislation to be forthcoming from the homelessness task force on which both Shelter and the Scottish Council for Single Homeless are represented. One of the most interesting statistics is that the number of void and hard-to-let houses in Scotland exceeds the number of people who are assessed as being in priority need in Scotland. That shows that the key issue is to get new investment into housing.

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Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority

To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer by Lord Hardie to question S1O-619 on 18 November 1999, whether it will now make representations to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority about delays in handling claims on behalf of victims of crime in Scotland. (S1O-852) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): I understand that extra members are now being recruited to the criminal injuries compensation appeal panel in order to deal with cases more quickly.

I thank the minister for that

reply, which contrasts with the complacent and arrogant response from his colleague the Lord Advocate, on 18 November. Will he comment on the fact that some victims have been waiting nine years for a hearing? In the year to March 1999, only 6 per cent of cases were dealt with within a year. In contrast, during the final year of the previous Conservative Government, 63 per cent of cases were dealt with within a year. Does the minister therefore agree that new Labour's slogan should be "Tough on crime—it's tough for the victims of crime"?

As Tricia Marwick will recognise, appeals to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority—formerly the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board—are demand led. There is indeed a backlog, but the authority is undoubtedly committed to reducing waiting times. I certainly do not condone people having to wait for up to nine years. Scottish ministers have recently agreed that the appeal panel can appoint approximately 40 new members, around five of whom will be recruited from Scotland.

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Prisons

To ask the Scottish Executive whether a speculative bid may be made by a private company for the purchase of Penninghame and Dungavel prisons and Dumfries young offenders institution, and whether it will rule out considering a positive response to an approach of that nature. (S1O-887) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Plans are in hand for HMP Penninghame and HMP Dungavel to be offered for sale on the open market. It is open to any organisation or individual whether or not they make a bid to purchase. There are no plans to sell HMYOI Dumfries.

I am partially reassured by the minister's response, as I was by the reply to my written question on the subject, which indicated that there were no plans for the use or creation of any privately owned and operated prisons in Scotland other than Kilmarnock. Is the minister aware that that is one of a number of rumours currently circulating in the Scottish Prison Service and that many prison officers believe that the current cuts and the loss of 374 jobs are only the first stage of a far more radical reorganisation of the service? Does he agree that there is a need for members of the Prison Service, through their trade unions, to be more closely involved in discussions on and plans for the future of their service?

There are no cuts in the Prison Service. The Prison Service budget is scheduled to increase year on year. No formal or informal discussions or approaches are taking place with regard to private organisations taking over those prisons to run them as prison facilities.

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Rural Schools

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to safeguard the future of rural schools in Scotland. (S1O-881) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The range of initiatives supported by the excellence fund for schools will benefit all communities, rural and urban, and the grant distribution mechanism for local authority funding takes account of factors that affect council services in rural areas.

The minister may be aware that Moray Council yesterday approved the closure of Boharm Primary School in my constituency, despite a well-argued campaign to keep the school open. Will he assure the community of Mulben that the Scottish Executive will listen to its arguments and that the school will not be closed on purely financial grounds?

Under some circumstances, final decisions on school closures can be referred to the Executive. Until we have seen all the paperwork supporting Moray Council's decision, it would not be appropriate to comment on a particular case. As a matter of general policy, there may be circumstances in which it is appropriate to close a rural school, but those circumstances are best judged in the first instance at local level.

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Prostate Cancer

To ask the Scottish Executive how many deaths there have been in the last five years from prostate cancer. (S1O-855) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Between 1994 and 1998 there were 3,644 deaths in Scotland from prostate cancer.

Is the minister aware that five- year survival rates in Scotland are only 48 per cent, compared with 86 per cent in the USA? Is she aware that the cases of prostate cancer have risen by 49 per cent since 1986, compared with a rise in breast cancer of 27 per cent in the same period? Is she further aware that the Scottish Office did not fund any research into prostate cancer in the past five years, while breast cancer received £1 million and colon cancer received £400,000 in the same period?

I am aware of the figures that Nick Johnston quoted. I stress that the Scottish death rate for prostate cancer compares

favourably with that of much of Europe. We are not complacent. In terms of research, we are investing significantly in work that will improve the diagnosis and treatment of all cancers.

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Poverty

To ask the Scottish Executive whether poverty is increasing. (S1O-865) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Over the last 20 years, poverty in Scotland has increased, as described in our report "Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters". We have made it clear that our success as an Executive will be judged on how effectively we tackle poverty, and we have set out the measures by which we can be judged, through our annual social justice report.

That is interesting. Not only do we get 20-year promises, we get 20-year answers.

I want to ask about the past two years. There have been five major surveys in recent weeks showing a north-south divide and an east-west divide. Will the minister address the situation in Glasgow, where the take-up of free school meals has increased in the past two years from 37 per cent to 43 per cent, and where the real level of unemployment as measured by labour force statistics has gone up from 27 per cent to 31 per cent? Does the minister agree that poverty among plenty is being perpetuated by the Labour Government and its Lib-Lab coalition? Does she agree that 20-year promises mean nothing when you have no job, no home and, for a record number of people, no hope?

I think that we have got the point.

I will try to address those points.

The figure that is quoted about the uptake of free school meals reflects the skill of Glasgow City Council in ensuring that every child in that city who is eligible for free school meals gets them.

On the point about unemployment, Fiona knows that this Government has delivered a 60 per cent cut in long-term youth unemployment in this country over the past two years.

On the issue of the five learned reports that we have had about Glasgow, the first report on Glasgow and Edinburgh stated that it nowhere compared pre-1997 and post-1997. The report from the University of Bristol on health covers 1991 to 1995. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation report said explicitly that it was too early to judge the Government's initiative. The Cabinet Office report used the most recent information, with little information on trends post-1997.

The important point is that we are about one fifth of the way through the extra money that the Government has committed to tackle poverty. I look forward to Fiona, or any other SNP members, telling us how they will fill the black hole and how many people they will take out of poverty.

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Child Welfare

To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-2202 by Mr Jim Wallace on 11 November 1999, what the time scale is of the UK interdepartmental working group examining the issue of parental chastisement of children and whether it proposes to conduct a separate consultation process in Scotland in order to take account of the different way in which Scotland's legal system deals with child welfare. (S1O-850) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): Since my answer to the member's question on 11 November, the Scottish Executive has decided to issue a consultation paper covering the law in Scotland on this subject. We hope to issue it by February 2000.

Given that the United Kingdom is currently in breach of a judgment of the European Court of Human Rights, does the Deputy First Minister agree with me on the need for a speedy resolution to this issue, at least with regard to using an implement on a child?

Mr Barrie's question refers to the interdepartmental working group that has been trying to take this issue forward following the judgment in the case of A against the United Kingdom. Scottish officials have been involved in that interdepartmental working group, but because of differences in the law and in procedure in Scotland, it is thought better to proceed with separate Scottish consultation.

I take the point that Mr Barrie makes about the need to make progress on this matter. I should add that it is our intention to seek the views of children as part of the consultation exercise.

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Prisoners (Drug Misuse)

To ask the Scottish Executive what external consultation has taken place or will take place before the conclusion and publication of "Partnership and co-ordination— the Scottish Prison Service Action on Drugs", the revised guidance on the management of drug misuse by Scotland's prisoners. (S1O-838) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): The Scottish Prison Service has engaged with a number of external bodies in producing its revised drug strategy. These have included the Medical Research Council, the

Scottish Advisory Committee on Drug Misuse, directors of social work, the chief medical officer, chief constables, and over 50 community agencies.

Does the minister accept the view that while there has been an overall reduction in positive drug test results in the Prison Service associated with the mandatory drug testing programme, this has been due for the most part to a switch in use from cannabis to heroin? Will he undertake to conduct an independent review of the mandatory drug testing programme in Scottish prisons and examine the restrictive effect that the use of funds on this mandatory expenditure has had on the development of testing in relation to voluntary drug-free zones in prisons?

The research currently available indicates that drug testing in prisons has not lead to a switch from cannabis to heroin. Testing on admission shows that hard drug use is common among those committed to custody. Nevertheless, I have asked the Prison Service to produce detailed proposals in relation to the possible expansion in the range and volume of rehabilitation services within Scottish prisons.

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Pig Farming

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to offset any financial disadvantages which may be imposed on pig farmers due to new pig welfare legislation banning the stall and tether systems used in pig breeding which has yet to be imposed elsewhere in the European Union. (S1O-873) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): As Mr Welsh may be aware, strict state aid rules and the common agricultural policy pigmeat regime prevent direct payments being made to producers.

The Scottish Executive is trying as hard as it can to encourage retailers, caterers and consumers to recognise in their purchasing decisions the very high welfare and quality standards achieved by the Scottish pig industry.

Why is the minister not acting on clear European Commission advice that compensation for the pig industry on welfare measures and the BSE tax would be allowed under European rules? Will he stop dithering and introduce that compensation? An industry facing its greatest ever crisis needs action, not dithering.

I do not know where Mr Welsh gets his clear advice from Europe. That is certainly not the advice that I have received. I had a meeting with the pig sector prior to question time. At that meeting, we have undertaken—because I understand that the industry has received conflicting views—to clarify that matter for them.

Perhaps the minister does not talk to Europe. Would the statement of Commissioner Franz Fischler be of any help to him? He said that

"aid to cover the costs of BSE which had been accepted as an exceptional occurrence would be allowable".

The minister might also consider the statement from the pig and poultry division that

"any national aid to balance the effect of national measures would not be seen as market distortions and would be allowed under EU rules".

Stop dithering and take action for the industry.

I can only repeat what I said earlier. The advice that we received from the Commission was that the specific purposes in relation to meat and bone meal would not be covered by the state aid rules. I repeat that in view of the information that Mr Welsh has given, which is also the point that was made by the pig industry, I will seek clarification on that important point.

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Hunting with Dogs

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to safeguard the welfare of 700 foxhounds in the event of a ban of hunting with dogs being endorsed by the Scottish Parliament. (S1O-866) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): It would be entirely inappropriate for the Scottish Executive to anticipate the Parliament's decision in respect of any prospective legislative proposals.

Given the recent report of the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, I can only describe the minister's answer as slightly unsatisfactory.

Will the minister reassure me that the report being carried out by the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute will examine the animal welfare aspects of such a ban as well as the economic aspects? Will the minister tell me how that institute can possibly report fully by the end of December, as promised by the Executive, when the six footpacks in the north of Scotland have not yet even been contacted by MLURI?

The purpose of commissioning that report was to do what Mr Fergusson wants— that is, to inform the debate. I am hopeful that all aspects of the matter will be taken into account in arriving at a report which will inform both the Executive and the Parliament of the economic impact. I hope that all aspects will be taken into account. I am assured by MLURI that it can meet that time scale. I have no reason to doubt it, but I am happy to take on board the point that Mr Fergusson made.

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Rural Transport Strategy

To ask the Scottish Executive what action it has taken to support and develop a rural transport strategy. (S1O-864) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive is addressing the distinctive transport needs of rural Scotland by investing over £43 million this financial year. That supports Caledonian MacBrayne Ltd and Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd, ferry services to the northern isles, public and community transport services and rural petrol stations.

I welcome the minister's response. Is she aware, however, of the terrible effect that the withdrawal of bus services is having on the people of Salsburgh? Does she agree that it is unacceptable that people are being forced to take taxis to get to work, to the doctor and to schools? Does the minister also agree that Strathclyde Passenger Transport should have consulted the people of Salsburgh before withdrawing those bus services? Does she support me in demanding the immediate reinstatement of those services?

Karen Whitefield has raised an important issue concerning the continuity of services—in particular bus services—in rural areas. Her points are very relevant in the context of our integrated transport bill, which I will introduce to Parliament next year. That bill will examine the whole issue of improving bus services, especially in rural areas, and ensuring that we improve the quality of consultation with local people.

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Smoking

To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it will implement to encourage and support people in Scotland who wish to cease smoking cigarettes. (S1O-854) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish Executive is introducing a range of measures to reduce the levels of smoking by people in Scotland. Those include health education and promotion activities such as the Health Education Board for Scotland—HEBS—Smokeline; help for particular groups such as pregnant women; and targeted smoking cessation services and nicotine replacement therapy, which is available free of charge to those least able to afford it.

Given the tragic toll of ill health caused, particularly in the west of Scotland, by the smoking of cigarettes, does the minister agree that not just national initiatives such as those she mentioned, but local initiatives such as that organised by Maryhill health forum in my constituency, where nicotine patches are available at half the normal retail price, are to be welcomed?

As I said in the debate on public health just after the summer recess, it is crucial that we take action at national and local levels to improve the health of the Scottish people. Local initiatives such as that mentioned by Patricia Ferguson are an excellent example of such action.

The £250,000 scheme that I was pleased to launch last week, with Action on Smoking and Health Scotland, to help those in deprived communities to stop smoking is another practical example. I hope that much more such work will take place throughout Scotland in future.

Starting with Mr Michael Russell, perhaps?

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Local Authority Leisure Facilities

To ask the Scottish Executive what safeguards for ownership of public assets will be put in place when local authorities wish to transfer ownership of leisure facilities to arm's-length trusts. (S1O-882) I think the croakiness of my voice indicates that I need some nicotine replacement therapy now. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I look forward to my free treatment.

Local authorities that wish to transfer assets to other bodies at less than best price need to obtain Scottish ministers' consent under section 74(2) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973.

If and when the Executive is approached by South Lanarkshire Council on this matter, will it ensure that there is no risk that, by such transfer, such public assets will become unavailable as a result of financial failure by the trust, as has happened in other areas?

A number of authorities in Scotland have been considering the establishment of leisure trusts, in recognition of the opportunities that such trusts facilitate to engage in savings and protection of the existing core service. All the local authorities in Scotland that have explored the idea of a trust have sought it on the basis of protecting, and perhaps enhancing, the existing service, and want to work in partnership with the local community.

I remind Mr Russell that one of the pioneering authorities that explored that option with me, as Deputy Minister for Local Government, was— funnily enough—SNP-led Clackmannanshire Council, which recognised the opportunity

provided by such establishments throughout Scotland.

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Road Accidents

To ask the Scottish Executive what initiatives it plans to reduce the level of fatal and serious road accidents. (S1O-886) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive and the UK Government will be publishing in the new year a road safety strategy for the period to 2010. Since 1980, fatal and serious accidents on Scottish roads have halved.

Would the minister consider extending local authorities' powers to allow them to impose measures to regulate speeding on Scottish roads?

The priority that I suggest is to go ahead with our pilots on home zones so that we can examine opportunities to create safe areas around schools and in residential districts. I encourage local authorities fully to take up the opportunity to reduce speeds to 20 mph in areas where they think that there are good road safety arguments to do so.

I also encourage them to take up the guidance on safer routes to schools that I published last week, which talks about giving pupils choices on safe routes to schools with which parents can be happy and which can help to reduce congestion on the roads. A range of mechanisms are available and it is critical that they are employed in the context of the local transport strategy of each local authority.

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Holyrood Project

To ask the Scottish Executive what are the implications for its budget if the cost of the Holyrood project increases beyond that currently planned for. (S1O-892)

The costs of the Holyrood project, with the exception of certain landscaping costs, fall to be met from the budget of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. That budget is determined annually as part of the process of allocating the total Scottish budget.

I know that the Minister for Finance cannot agree that he made a mistake in the first place in proceeding with the site, but I will ask him, in the spirit of the season, to make my Christmas happier by promising that Señor Miralles, the builders and the developers will not demolish Queensberry House simply because he has not managed to get enough money out of the

Treasury.

Those are matters for the SPCB. It is right and proper for us to leave it to that body to keep members informed on those issues.

If Ms MacDonald asks me that question on another occasion, I will answer it.

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Housing

To ask the Scottish Executive what recent discussions it has had with housing organisations relating to a single social tenancy and the right to buy. (S1O-888) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Over the past two months, I have discussed the single social tenancy and the right to buy at a number of meetings with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, the Chartered Institute of Housing, Scottish Homes, the Scottish Tenants Organisation, the Scottish Council for the Single Homeless and Shelter (Scotland).

The minister has estimated that around 850 houses for rent could be sold as a result of the proposed extension to the right to buy. How does she respond to the SFHA's estimate that as many as 15,000 houses for rent could be sold each year as a result of such an extension? Does she agree that the right to rent decent and affordable housing for the poor who cannot afford to buy is fundamental to any social inclusion strategy and is directly threatened by the proposals, which may lead to indiscriminate sales under the right to buy?

As the member knows, a number of modelling exercises have been undertaken. They lead us to believe that about 850 additional houses will be sold each year. We are committed to building 6,000 homes each year for rent or low-cost home ownership. On this issue, we sometimes have to listen to the people—that is the purpose of this Parliament— and not necessarily to the professionals. I am struck by the fact that, in the past week, not one tenant has phoned, written or spoken to me to say that they regret that they will be acquiring the same rights that 700,000 tenants in Scotland already have.

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Child Care Strategy

To ask the Scottish Executive why the first priority in its child care strategy as set out in "Making it work together—a programme for government", of setting up a new national child care information line by December 1999, has not been delivered. (S1O-868)

The national child care website went live on 15 November. The national child care information line is ready now. However, purely for marketing reasons, I decided to delay publicising the service until January.

I thank the minister for that response, although I am not sure that it entirely answers the question.

Is the minister aware of the disruption to local authorities and child care partnerships across Scotland, which intended to launch their local helplines on 15 November to coincide with the original date for the launch of the national one? Does the Scottish Executive intend to publish a separate document to make it clear to the people of Scotland in what areas and to what extent it has failed to meet its target and is not delivering services as promised?

As Irene McGugan will have learned from my answer, we have delivered on that. If she is in doubt, she should go to www.childcarelink.gov.uk, where she will be able to find out about Angus.