Water Industry (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
We come to stage 3 proceedings on the Water Industry (Scotland) Bill. I do not intend to make the usual long preamble. I simply remind members that they should have with the bill, as amended at stage 2, the marshalled list of all the amendments that I have selected for debate and the groupings that have been agreed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My intention is to be helpful about the process of lodging amendments for consideration at stage 3. Two SNP amendments were not selected for debate today. I understand the process of selection—I might not like it, but it is a reality. However, I seek further advice from the Presiding Officers on information that is provided to members who lodge amendments that are not successful in being selected. In the past, other members have suffered as a result of the process.
We are not told why certain amendments are not selected, which immediately breeds suspicion and makes members unhappy with the final position. In the interests of natural justice, the Presiding Officers must consider whether it would be sensible and more effective to allow that information to be imparted to members. In those circumstances, a proper discussion could take place. The final decisions would still rest with the Presiding Officers, but all suspicions would be removed.
You may not be content, Mr Crawford, but guidance is given. You will find the selection criteria for amendments set out in "Guidance on Public Bills". We give serious consideration to all amendments, but we do not give reasons for not selecting them; if we did, we would be hooked into interminable debate on the subject.
Section 1—Water Industry Commissioner for Scotland
We come to the first group of amendments to the Water Industry (Scotland) Bill. Amendment 2, in the name of the Minister for Environment and Rural Development, is grouped with amendments 3 to 8.
I apologise for the large number of Executive amendments. Those who have served on the Transport and the Environment Committee and members who have been following the proceedings on the bill with interest will recognise that, although the objectives of the bill are relatively simple, its progress has been a complex operation. I apologise for the fact that several technical amendments have been required. The majority of them are, however, of a minor, tidying-up nature and will not, I hope, cause Parliament much difficulty. The remainder have been lodged following constructive discussions that Allan Wilson and I have had with the Transport and the Environment Committee and I hope that those amendments will improve the bill.
The dual function—to which I shall allude later—of creating the legislative framework to bring the water companies together and managing the preliminary stages subject to the bill on the ground has put enormous pressure on the committee and its members. At the outset, I acknowledge the contribution of committee members to the process and our appreciation of the speedy and efficient manner in which they have worked.
Amendments 2 to 7 fall into the category of tidying-up amendments. The bill distinguishes between Scottish Water's core and non-core functions. The core functions are those involved in providing water and sewerage services on the public networks. The non-core functions are activities such as providing laboratory or consultancy services on a commercial basis to third parties. Provision of those services is a matter for Scottish Water and those with whom it contracts to provide the services. It would not make sense for the water industry commissioner to have any role in that relationship. This group of Executive amendments clarifies that the commissioner's functions relate solely to the core functions of Scottish Water.
The Executive lodged amendment 8 following the commitment that Allan Wilson gave to John Scott during stage 2 consideration of the bill. John Scott moved an amendment requiring the water industry commissioner to respond to the recommendations and representations from the new water customer consultation panels within a given period. We recognise the value of placing some form of reporting duty on the commissioner, but we take the view that requiring him to respond in all cases within a fixed time scale would be too inflexible and impractical. In any event, the bill requires the water industry commissioner to have regard to—he cannot ignore—any matter that is put to him by the water customer consultation panels. Amendment 8 requires the commissioner to include in his annual report the actions that he has taken in response to representations, reports and recommendations from the panels. It also requires him to give his reasons in those cases in which he has decided that it is not appropriate to take action in response to any representation, report or recommendation.
The arrangements established by amendment 8 will ensure a transparent process for the commissioner's dealings with representations, reports and recommendations from the panels. I hope that that will help Parliament—which will be able to discuss those reports—to hold the commissioner to account for his actions in that respect. I urge members to support the Executive amendments.
I move amendment 2.
I thank the Transport and the Environment Committee for the work that it has undertaken during the consideration of the bill. I am not a member of that committee any more, but I know that several important debates took place in committee and that some important changes to the bill and ministerial responses were made because of those discussions.
Amendments 2, 6 and 7 appear pretty innocuous. The minister attempted to display a disarming charm in speaking to the amendments—and he can be charming—but it is on such occasions that ministers are most worth watching. I am sorry to say to Ross Finnie that, on this occasion, we have not been disarmed. Those amendments will put the interests of customers at risk, as they effectively neuter some important powers that the water industry commissioner will have on behalf of customers. By restricting the water industry commissioner to issues that relate solely to the core functions of Scottish Water, the Executive will unnecessarily overexpose the interests of the customers. I shall explain what I mean by that.
If Scottish Water were to become involved in a joint venture with other organisations to deliver, for instance, bundled services of gas, electricity and telephony as well as water, the authority for that would lie outwith its core functions. If the Executive amendments were passed, the water industry commissioner would have no locus in such a venture on behalf of Scottish Water customers. The venture might involve bundled services, laboratory services—which the minister mentioned—billing activity or even a farming activity such as the one that, until recently, was taking place around Loch Katrine. All those activities could be outwith the core functions of Scottish Water and there would be no role for the water industry commissioner in them. Nevertheless, if any such joint ventures or special purpose vehicles went belly up or ran into debt, Scottish Water would be required to accept its share of liabilities.
Any losses incurred in those circumstances would impact on Scottish Water and would hurt customers, yet the water industry commissioner would be powerless to intervene. That cannot be right. There must be a role for the water industry commissioner in those circumstances to provide advice and guidance to Scottish Water. It would be wrong-headed to remove such powers from the WIC on behalf of customers; therefore, the Executive amendments are wrong-headed. I ask the minister to reconsider and I ask the Parliament to reject the Executive amendments if he does not.
I agree with the minister about the hard work that has been involved in bringing the bill to stage 3. Although the work has been hard, I have enjoyed it—it has been good fun.
Unlike Bruce Crawford, we have no difficulty with amendment 2. We are also happy with amendments 3 to 7. I welcome the minister's comments on amendment 8 and thank him for honouring his commitment to lodge at stage 3 an amendment similar to my amendment 15 at stage 2. Amendment 8 will allow the commissioner to be more open about his decision-making process. In particular, it will force him to give reasons for inaction on representations. I am happy with amendment 8.
I will confine my remarks to amendments 3, 4 and 5. However, I will pick up on what the minister said about amendment 8, which we all agree is a good amendment. He said that amendment 8 will ensure that the customer, through the customer panels and the water industry commissioner, has his or her voice and views heard. I believe that amendments 3, 4 and 5 will restrict provisions that would ensure that those views are heard.
If the water customer consultation panels are to represent the views and interests of the customers, we cannot limit those views and interests to Scottish Water's core functions. The customer's interests in Scottish Water are bound up with the whole operation of the company; its overall performance could affect the delivery of its core functions. Therefore, the customer and the water customer consultation panels must be able to have their views heard on all matters that concern Scottish Water.
Bruce Crawford gave examples and I will give another, concrete example—MSPs in the west of Scotland might have received notice of the matter directly or through their constituents. West of Scotland Water has been sending out letters to customers in which it offers an insurance service, for £49 per annum, that will look after the pipes from a householder's gate to their doorway. As members will know, that service is the responsibility not of West of Scotland Water, but of the householder. The service is not a core function of West of Scotland Water, but its customers will have a view on, and an interest in, it. Through the water customer consultation panels, Scottish Water's customers should be able to have their views and interests represented on such matters.
Amendment 4 is about the issuing of reports from the water customer consultation panels. Again, customers will take to the panels issues that are outwith the core functions of Scottish Water. They will expect to see those issues appearing in reports.
Amendment 5 is about recommendations to the water industry commissioner, as a sort of promotion of customer interests. Again, customers will take non-core function interests to the panels. The panels must be able to present those interests to the water industry commissioner so that the customer's voice is truly heard.
Two substantive issues are involved in this matter. First, the role of the water industry commissioner will not be to manage Scottish Water. We must be clear in our deliberations on the bill that there is a real distinction between the board of Scottish Water's role of managing and taking decisions and the commissioner's role of representing the customers' interests in strategic issues that concern the delivery of core functions. That is an important distinction.
Secondly, Fiona McLeod and Bruce Crawford spoke about the role of the commissioner if the board decides that Scottish Water should embark on other activities. The commissioner will not oversee the external, non-core functions of Scottish Water, but he will have a crucial interest in any contemplated or proposed activities. If he believes that such activities might damage or interfere with the balance of the core activities, he will have the right to be interested and play a role. That is an important point.
I refer the minister to section 2(4), which states that a customer panel must
"make such recommendations as it considers appropriate to the Commissioner".
The minister wants to limit that responsibility to apply only to core function items. How will the customer panels and the water industry commissioner take account of non-core functions if amendment 2 does not allow them to?
The water industry commissioner will have no duty to investigate non-core functions. However, one should not interpret that to mean that the commissioner will have no right to complain about a proposal that might damage core functions. He will have such a right. The commissioner will have no right simply to raise issues that relate to non-core operations. If Scottish Water intends to embark on a non-core activity that will have a direct impact on the core function, the commissioner can complain about the potential for damage to the core function. However, as I said, the commissioner will have no right to comment on the particular operation of a non-core function. I would like to press amendment 2.
In that case, I will put the question. The question is, that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division. As this is the first division in a grouping, the voting time will be two minutes.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 72, Against 26, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 2 agreed to.
I ask Mr Finnie to move amendments 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 en bloc.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The SNP wants to oppose some of the amendments, but we want to support amendment 8.
I was coming to that. I was going to ask whether members would be content for a single question to be put on amendments 3 to 8 or whether they want each amendment to be voted on. However, from Mr Crawford's point of order I take it that putting a single question is opposed. Therefore, we will put the question on each amendment.
Section 2—Water Customer Consultation Panels
Amendments 3 to 5 moved—[Ross Finnie].
The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 69, Against 26, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 3 agreed to.
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 73, Against 25, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 4 agreed to.
The question is, that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 76, Against 27, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 5 agreed to.
Section 3—Functions of the Commissioner
Amendments 6 and 7 moved—[Ross Finnie].
The question is, that amendment 6 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 75, Against 28, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 6 agreed to.
The question is, that amendment 7 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 74, Against 26, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 7 agreed to.
Section 5—Annual reports by, and information from, the Commissioner
Amendment 8 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 20—Scottish Water
Amendment 85, in the name of Bruce Crawford, is grouped with amendment 96.
As we have consistently said, the SNP's support for the bill at stage 3 is dependent on the Executive's capacity to persuade us that its rhetoric will be matched by the words in the bill. That is particularly true with regard to ensuring that Scottish Water is wholly anchored in the public sector and that there is not the slightest doubt that that is where it will continue to be.
Unfortunately, doubts about that remain and the more digging that we have done, the greater our concerns have become. The Executive, through its rhetoric, has sought to assure us that Scottish Water is safe in its hands and will remain in the public sector, but all that it has done is succeed in confusing matters even further.
The basis for the Executive's position is that both the long title of the bill and the opening sentence of part 3 refer to Scottish Water as a "body corporate". By some legislative magic, that is supposed to ensure that Scottish Water will remain in public hands. Ross Finnie used that argument in his letter of 12 November to the convener of the Transport and the Environment Committee and Allan Wilson used the same argument on 9 January, when he said at stage 2:
"Scottish Water is a body corporate, to be established by primary legislation, with statutory functions that clearly have public purposes".—[Official Report, Transport and the Environment Committee, 9 January 2002; c 2499.]
That is that, then—because the minister has told us that, all is well and we can rest easily. If only that were so. The ministers have clearly swallowed hook, line and sinker the advice that has been given to them by their civil servants. However, there is compelling evidence from independent sources that could be used to argue the opposite position from that taken by the Executive. Dr John Sawkins of Heriot-Watt University and Dave Watson from Unison gave evidence to that effect during the Transport and the Environment Committee's inquiry. Unison said in written evidence that it was concerned that
"these proposals are another step down the road to privatisation".
At best, the bill's wording is confusing, at worst, it is downright misleading.
There is also compelling evidence from earlier legislation that simply calling an organisation a body corporate does not necessarily establish that a body is a public entity. For example, a body corporate may be a company, as is shown in paragraph 5 of schedule 2 to the Requirements of Writing (Scotland) Act 1995 and in section 11 of the Competition Act 1980.
The purpose of the SNP amendments is to ensure that there is no scope to mislead or capacity for confusion. If the Executive is intent on matching its rhetoric with its actions, what possible fears could be caused by the insertion of the words "a public body"? The only answer can be none, unless there is a hidden agenda for the future privatisation of Scottish water.
I move amendment 85.
The SNP has obviously been rehearsing this argument for some time. However, I draw to the Parliament's attention the fact that the letter—to which Bruce Crawford referred—that Ross Finnie sent to the convener of the Transport and the Environment Committee at stage 1 clearly establishes that Scottish Water will be a public body. Indeed, the committee's report said:
"We welcome the Minister's unequivocal statement on this subject".
Remarkably, Adam Ingram and Fiona McLeod, who were members of the committee at the time, signed that report and did not dissent from that welcome. The report also says:
"we support the Bill's intention to establish a public corporation which is able to compete in a competitive market but which is properly accountable to the people of Scotland through Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament."
Adam Ingram and Fiona McLeod agreed to that in full.
Amendment 85 does not seek to establish more clearly the fact that Scottish Water will be a public body, as that is quite clear already; the amendment is merely a piece of posturing. If the SNP wants to take that approach, it should put its A team into the committee rather than its B team.
The committee discussed an amendment similar to amendment 85 at stage 2. I can honestly say that, having thought about the proposal since then, I can see no need for it. Scottish Water will unquestionably be a publicly owned utility, not a private company. If Bruce Crawford honestly believes that the Executive will privatise it, given its oft-stated intention not to, he is simply not prepared to accept the reality.
Does John Scott remember what the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development said at the Transport and the Environment Committee meeting on 16 January? He said:
"Scottish Water is, critically, much more likely to wish to form private companies than public companies".—[Official Report, Transport and the Environment Committee, 16 January 2002; c 2570.]
That is far from privatisation. We are not talking about the same thing. I suspect that Bruce Crawford is deliberately missing the point.
We incline to the view that, in the long term, privatisation might prove to be in the best interests of Scottish consumers. However, we all have to confront the realities. That is what we are here to do today. The reality is that privatisation will not be delivered, which is why over the past year we have created the creature that we have, which is something of a halfway house.
At any rate, the Conservatives cannot see the need for amendment 85, which restates the obvious. We will therefore reject it. Amendment 96 is dependent on amendment 85. We will therefore not support that either.
Anything that would anchor Scottish Water in the public sector would normally get my full support, but I do not support amendment 85 because the only thing that could anchor Scottish Water in the public sector is the political will of the Government that happens to be in power. It may sound far-fetched and fantastical to suggest that the Tories would ever come into power in the Scottish Parliament, but were they to do so, adding a phrase to the bill would not prevent them from privatising the Scottish water industry.
The SNP lacks critical judgment in that respect. Bruce Crawford mentioned the view of Unison that the bill is a step towards privatisation. I fear that too, but not in the way that the SNP suggests. Consider what is happening in England and Wales. The privatised water companies there now realise that they do not want to own the infrastructure. They do not want to keep it in private ownership; they are trying to get it back into the public sector. That is happening for a good reason: the infrastructure—the pipes and the plants—is heavily regulated and costs a lot of money to maintain. The private sector would rather that the pipes and plants be in the public sector.
I do not doubt that private water companies, wherever they happen to be, are happy for Scottish Water to own the entire water and sewerage infrastructure as long as they are able to compete in that publicly owned infrastructure for business. When the Executive introduces the water services bill, I will oppose it 100 per cent. I am opposed to the opening up of the water and sewerage industry to competition and will fight it with every breath in my body. Today's fight is not the real fight. What we are doing in Scotland is what the privatised water companies want to happen in England and Wales. I therefore think that Bruce Crawford's argument is false. The real battle will come later.
Amendments 85 and 96 are unnecessary. Part 3 of the bill establishes Scottish Water as a statutory body with clear public functions. It is as clear as can be—dare I say it, as clear as the water in my glass—that Scottish Water is a public body. I cannot believe that anybody could possibly mistake it for anything else. Attempts to repeat that demonstrable fact at various points in the bill are superfluous and contrary to good drafting. As Bristow Muldoon pointed out, amendments 85 and 96 are identical to two amendments that were defeated at stage 2. The SNP has been trying to run that hare—perhaps I should stay off hare analogies after yesterday's business.
The bill leaves no room for doubt that Scottish Water is a body corporate with public purposes. I assume that that is what Bruce Crawford means by "a public body". There has been some confusion, to which Bruce Crawford has added again today with his references to public companies and private companies. In fact, as he should know by now, public companies are those that are listed in the stock exchange and private companies are those that are not. The addition of the words "a public body" to the bill would have no legal effect. Furthermore, the long title of the bill—this is probably the most important point—is important for defining the scope of the bill. It should contain only words that have a clear, understood legal effect.
I urge Parliament to reject amendments 85 and 96.
I will deal first with John McAllion's comments, because he has hit some of the nails right on the head. He is right that the contents of the water services bill will open up the industry much more to competition. I was in Brussels just a couple of weeks ago talking to European Community officials about that. There is no desire in the EC for us to go down that route. I have no doubt about that. However, the Water Industry (Scotland) Bill paves the way for the water services bill. We will not allow Scottish Water to become a private industry in any circumstances.
The minister can tell me until he is blue in the face that he has no intention of privatising Scottish Water. He could turn other colours—purple if he wished—but that would not mean that the rhetoric of the day would necessarily be matched by any actions in future. Indeed, if the minister has no plans to privatise Scottish Water, what could he have to fear from the words "a public body"? What would be lost? What is the truth behind the rhetoric? Why is the minister so reticent?
Does Bruce Crawford agree that the essential characteristic of a company, whether a public limited company or a private limited company, which is registered under the Companies Act 1985, is that it has shares and shareholders who can transfer those shares and therefore could keep the company in whatever domain they choose? The essential difference between a company registered under the 1985 act and the body that the Parliament will create is that the latter has no shares and no shareholders and cannot transfer. Does Bruce Crawford agree that those are the essential differences and that his point is entirely bogus?
Section 25 gives Scottish Water the power to promote or form companies. The majority of the body could be transferred to a company by using that power.
Is it any wonder that we do not trust the rhetoric? I will give a perfect example of why that is so. The ministers have laid it on thick that they will control Scottish Water through directions to the organisation. Talking in committee about what the ministers can and cannot do, Allan Wilson said:
"we have issued to the committee the general powers and corporate governance directions, which make it clear that contracting out is one of the many activities on which Scottish ministers may direct Scottish Water."—[Official Report, Transport and the Environment Committee, 30 January 2002; c 2665.]
That piece of rhetoric was entirely misleading. Anyone who cares to take time to read through the directions will not find one word that restricts Scottish Water from privatisation or contracting out. The reason that we cannot trust the ministers is that they say one thing but deliver the opposite. Their actions condemn them.
The question is, that amendment 85 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 30, Against 82, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 85 disagreed to.
Section 21—Transfer of functions from new water and sewerage authorities
Amendment 9 is grouped with amendments 10, 11, 40 to 48, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 61 to 71, 74, 76 to 79, 83 and 84.
These are technical amendments, which I hope will be passed without a great deal of debate. The substantive amendments among the 30-plus amendments in the group are amendments 58 and 78. Their purpose is to place beyond any doubt the fact that Scottish Water's core functions are to be exercised in relation to the geographical areas that are served by the existing three authorities. They provide that Scottish Water's area of operation is to be taken to be the local authority areas covered by those three authorities.
Amendments 10 and 11 clarify that Scottish Water can exercise its non-core functions and can do anything necessary or expedient outwith its area in carrying them out. The other amendments in the group are consequential on the change from three water authorities to a single entity. They tidy up a number of statutory references to water authorities' areas and lines of supply. Accordingly, I recommend the amendments to the Parliament.
I move amendment 9.
I do not intend to resist the amendments, but wish to ask the ministers a few questions to ensure that I entirely understand their intent. On amendments 10 and 11, under what circumstances might Scottish Water want to engage in activities outwith Scotland? If Scottish Water were to sell Scottish water via pipes to our neighbours in the south and generate a profit, I could understand why the provisions in those amendments might be necessary. Could the minister tell us of any other circumstances under which it may be necessary for Scottish Water to operate outwith Scotland?
On amendment 9, we agree with the removal of section 21(2), which is entirely unnecessary, as subsection (1) says all that needs to be said, in that all the functions of the existing water and sewerage authorities will be transferred to Scottish Water. I apologise—that was probably self-evident.
I welcome amendments 10 and 11, although, like Bruce Crawford, I am interested to hear what the ministers have to say about them. Those amendments suggest to me that Scottish Water can, and should, be developing non-core business functions within and outwith Scotland. We believe that that will benefit Scottish Water and allow it to develop other income streams, which should ultimately benefit water consumers.
I accept the minister's point in reference to amendment 58 and others, and I am happy to accept the group of amendments as a whole.
In response to Bruce Crawford's point, it may be that there are customers in Scotland who would wish a UK-wide service from Scottish Water. Customers would be able to access that as a consequence of our amendments.
Amendment 9 agreed to.
Section 25—General powers
Amendments 10 and 11 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 26—Code of practice
We now progress to the fourth group of amendments, on Scottish Water customer standards and a consultation code. Amendment 12 is grouped with amendments 13 to 24.
We said at the outset that Scottish Water, as a publicly owned authority, must be properly responsive to the needs, interests and concerns of consumers. At stage 2, Des McNulty and others argued the case that Scottish Water should be subject to a code on local consultations. We accepted that argument, and amendment 24 provides for that code. It requires Scottish Water to prepare a code and submit it to ministers for their approval. The code will cover how Scottish Water will consult those affected by its activities and will require Scottish Water to have regard to the views of those who are consulted.
Before Scottish Water submits a code to ministers for their approval, it must consult each water customer consultation panel and must have regard to any comments on the code that any panel makes. Amendment 24 gives ministers the final say on approving the code and enables them, if they so wish, to modify the code before approving it. Those arrangements will ensure that Scottish Water engages in a proper dialogue with the customers and communities that it serves, which are affected by its activities. I believe that they form a valuable addition to the bill, and I am happy to commend them to the Parliament.
Amendments 12 to 16 and 18 to 23 are consequential on amendment 24. They avoid confusion between the new local consultation code and the code of practice on customer standards that is already covered in the bill. Amendment 24 also provides that Scottish Water will publish its consultation code, and amendment 17 makes identical provisions for the customer standards code. I recommend this group of amendments to Parliament.
I move amendment 12.
I am happy to accept amendment 12, as it will define more clearly what is expected of Scottish Water in its behaviour towards its customers. A customer standards code can only be a good thing, and I believe that it will certainly not impose an onerous burden on Scottish Water.
I wish to query amendment 24. I welcome the fact that it is to create consultation codes and believe that that will strengthen the bill and make it more acceptable in its day-to-day delivery. We are happy to support it, but I seek the minister's views on section 26(3), which reads:
"Scottish Water may … revoke and replace … its code of practice".
Presumably that cannot be construed by Scottish Water to mean that it can ignore the code of practice if it chooses to revoke and replace it. Could it revoke it and replace it with something meaningless, or indeed with nothing at all?
I welcome amendment 24. As was outlined in the Transport and the Environment Committee, there is a need for consultation with, as the amendment says,
"persons who live, work or carry on business in any area significantly affected by such an activity, or who represent the interests of such persons".
At the committee, I raised the issue of Loch Katrine and the difficulty that I had experienced in persuading West of Scotland Water to consult the local communities, not only over the loss of sheep grazing in the area, but over the new integrated management plan. I hope—touch wood—that that process is now under way, but I would like a reassurance from the minister that the "core functions" referred to in the amendment are being interpreted in the broad sense, so that they cover areas of land that Scottish Water owns but that might not be used strictly for its core business.
I am delighted to support the Executive's amendments, and I thank the Deputy Minister for Environment, Sport and Culture for taking such a positive attitude on this matter. The amendments introduce a responsibility on the part of Scottish Water seriously to take account of not just individuals' interest but the community interest when considering how it carries out major projects.
I have had some negative experience of West of Scotland Water's consultation processes on its proposed water treatment plant in Milngavie. If the code of practice had been in place to govern the way in which that project was pursued, many of the concerns now being raised by the local community would have been dealt with in a different, much more positive, way.
It is important that the consultation process is genuine and that the company is required to listen to people, to take their concerns seriously and to respond to them directly. When we are establishing a business that, by its nature, will look towards the customer interest, there should be a community dimension, and the amendments add that to the bill. I welcome the way in which the proposals have been presented and I hope that members will support the amendments.
On John Scott's point, whatever happens to the code remains subject to ministerial approval and to consultation. Sylvia Jackson referred to exactly the kind of circumstance to which the provisions in amendment 24 would apply. Dealing with cryptosporidium is very much part of the core function of Scottish Water. That is the sort of issue that would be covered by the code.
I hope that that deals with the points raised by members and that amendment 12 will be agreed to.
Amendment 12 agreed to.
Amendments 13 to 19 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 27—Approval of code of practice
Amendments 20 to 23 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
After section 27
Amendment 24 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 28—Charges for goods and services
We move to the fifth group of amendments, entitled "Charges schemes—general". We are about 10 minutes ahead of schedule. The next amendment for debate is amendment 97, in the name of Tommy Sheridan, which is grouped with amendments 25, 98, 101 and 26.
Amendments 97 and 98 should be a core priority of Parliament. Social justice in theory improves no one's standard of living. However, amendments 97 and 98 would deliver social justice in practice.
The current water charging system is quite simply unfair, as it is based on council tax bands. All objective observers, including such bodies as the Institute of Fiscal Studies, agree that the council tax is unfair and regressive, as it commands a higher proportion of income from the poor than from the wealthy. The low-paid and pensioners are particularly penalised by the council tax system, while the well-paid and wealthy are pampered by it.
The effects of applying the council tax bands to water charges are even worse. There is a poor council tax rebate system, but there is no such system for water charges. The system proposed by the Scottish Executive would make no concrete difference to that situation. The poor, pensioners and the low-paid are penalised even more under the current water rates system than under the council tax. In Glasgow alone, 57,000 pensioners are entitled to either full or partial council tax rebate, but to no rebate on water charges.
Members may be aware that, since 1996, water charges for domestic customers have increased by 105 per cent—a massive hike. A further increase of 10 per cent is expected this year. Those increases have been borne by those on fixed and low incomes: people on benefits, state pensions and low wages. The new charging system proposed under amendments 97 and 98 is based on personal income. It would be fair, transparent and progressive. It would deliver social justice, rather than talking about it.
Almost 80 per cent of Scottish pensioners currently live on incomes of less than £10,000 per year. The Office of Water Services in England and Wales estimates that by 2003-04 single pensioner households will pay 14 per cent of their income in water charges alone. Observers expect that the percentage in Scotland will be similar or even higher. In Scotland 882,000 citizens are trying to survive on an income of less than £10,000 per year. The demographic trend in Scotland is towards much smaller households. By 2003-04, it is expected that only 5 per cent of households will contain more than three working adults. At the moment, 80 per cent of households contain only two working adults.
The Inland Revenue would collect the water tax under contract to Scottish Water. The estimated cost of collection would be £20 million per annum. Currently it costs £45 million per annum to collect water charges. Someone with an income of £17,500 per year—the Scottish average—would pay £121 a year in water tax. A two-adult household on average income would pay £242 a year. In Glasgow, such households currently pay £260 a year. In the east of Scotland they currently pay £270, while in the north of Scotland they currently pay £330.
Amendment 97 seeks to protect the poor, pensioners and the low-paid, and to effect a redistribution of income in our country. It is trying to charge appropriately for an essential service—not a service that should be paid for according to use, but an essential service. The proposed scheme recognises the essential nature of water and sewerage services. The amendment would increase the disposable income of the poorest, while ensuring that the wealthy pay more. It would also deliver an extra £201 million this year for water and sewerage investment. Given that incomes rise year on year, that amount is bound to increase.
I move amendment 97.
Amendment 25 is consequential on the addition of section 34A to the bill at stage 2. Section 34A defines the meaning of the term "occupier" for the purposes of determining who is liable to pay water and sewerage charges. Amendment 25 would add the new section to the list of matters that are to be taken into account when fixing charges under section 28 of the bill.
Amendment 26 is a minor, tidying-up amendment. It would remove the reference at section 36 of the bill to section 13 of the Modifications of Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968. The bill would repeal section 13 of the 1968 act, as under a single water authority it is no longer required.
I turn now to amendments 97, 98 and 101. Members will be aware that over the past three months we have debated exhaustively Tommy Sheridan's ideas for water charges—which might be described more appropriately as a proposal for a water tax. The issue was raised at the stage 1 debate on the bill, when I listened intently to what the member had to say at length about his proposed scheme. The Transport and the Environment Committee did the same at stage 2. Since then, there has been a 30-minute debate in the chamber on the topic.
I am not sure that I have anything new to say on the subject, other than to state the obvious. Amendments 97, 98 and 101 would scrap the current arrangement under which local authorities collect water and sewerage charges, replacing it with a requirement on Scottish Water to take a specified proportion of a customer's income as payment for the services that it provides. That would require Scottish Water to establish each customer's income. As we made clear at stage 2, such an approach would be incredibly cumbersome and would require a great deal of time, effort and, undoubtedly, expense.
Why would it be so difficult, given that the Inland Revenue already has the required information?
I have been in correspondence with Tommy Sheridan, and estimates of the costs of implementing the scheme vary. I believe that he himself calculates a collection charge of approximately £40 million per annum. There would undoubtedly be costs to the water company associated with Tommy Sheridan's proposed scheme.
The advantage of the current link between water charges and council tax bands is that the bandings, once established, remain constant. Tommy Sheridan's proposed scheme would lack that advantage. Instead, there would need to be constant revision of a customer income database, which is unproductive in cost and effort. As Tommy Sheridan knows, I cannot see how his scheme would work in practice.
No less significantly, the amendments would require Scottish Water to act in a highly intrusive manner in respect of its customers' income. The authority would not have information about its customers' income. Dennis Canavan suggested that the Inland Revenue already has the relevant information. However, giving the authority power to obtain that information would raise serious questions about individuals' rights to privacy in matters such as their income. Scottish Water would require such information in order to implement a practical charging scheme based on the system that Mr Sheridan proposes. For all those reasons and many more besides, I ask the Parliament to reject amendments 97, 98 and 101.
I say to Mr Sheridan that the argument for progressive taxation has not been well made at either stage 2 or stage 3. It might be an admirable socialist principle and what we would expect from Tommy Sheridan, but the tax that he suggests would encourage high earners to move elsewhere. This week, I was at a conference at which the Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning said that she was trying to bring in more people to create jobs in Scotland and generate business and wealth for the Scottish economy. The imposition of a progressive tax would drive those people and their businesses, on which we must depend, from Scotland.
The tax that is being suggested is not equitable. Quite simply, the proposals are impractical. We cannot support amendment 97.
If we accept amendment 98, we must also accept amendment 101, but we cannot accept either because, as Allan Wilson said, that would mean that we would be unable to collect any charges. The proposals could not work.
I start with what John Scott said. We have known for a long time that the Tories do not like progressive taxation, but we do. I was quite astonished by his comment about people leaving the country because of high taxation. He should acknowledge the number of young people leaving our country because they do not have decent jobs or opportunities and because the economy is struggling. That is happening day in, day out.
I realise that Tommy Sheridan is trying to produce a progressive scheme, but it is stepped. It might have anomalies and it should be tapered. Tommy Sheridan will concede that, on 16 January, he said that work needed to be done on the matter. He said:
"University of Paisley staff will produce a full academic report within two months."—[Official Report, Transport and the Environment Committee, 16 January 2002; c 2593.]
We have to make the legislation today and I do not have enough information in front of me to make a solid judgment about whether amendment 97 would be a proper way to produce such a scheme. Tommy Sheridan's proposal might work if we had a local income tax-based system, but we do not have that at the moment.
Regardless of that, there is no question but that the Executive must address the cost of water as a priority. The low-paid, pensioners and the poor must find their position vastly improved. That is particularly true given some of the increases in the East of Scotland Water and West of Scotland Water areas of late. We have already argued that such increases were unnecessary.
I am absolutely astonished that the minister has not told us today about the work that the water industry commissioner has undertaken to examine proposals that would give the minister and the Parliament a new framework to address affordability. I thought that the minister would have told the Parliament that that is happening. The work is continuing. The quicker we get it, the better, because the issue must be addressed soon.
There are significant questions about whether the proposals in amendment 97 fall within the powers of the Scottish Parliament. The amendment is an innovative attempt by Tommy Sheridan to introduce a redistributive taxation system. The appropriate place to address income tax and benefits is through the income tax and benefits system, which is a reserved matter. The appropriate place for the issues to be discussed is Westminster.
The SNP should clarify its position; it appears to be trying to sit on the fence. It does not wish to say that it supports Tommy Sheridan's proposals, but nor does it wish to oppose them. During stage 2, SNP members sat on the fence and abstained on the matter. The SNP should be clear and tell us whether it supports the proposed water tax. It should tell us whether, if the people of Scotland were unfortunate enough to see the party in power, the proposed tax would be added to the shopping tax that was launched last weekend.
Amendment 97 also raises issues of practicality, as the minister outlined. The amendment must be taken along with the proposals for a council income tax that Tommy Sheridan made a few weeks ago. Both measures would result in greater centralisation of decision-making in Scotland and in the Parliament. They would have uncertain impacts on the overall taxation burden on people in Scotland.
We must also address the issue of significant changes in taxation being suggested purely to deal with the water industry. What taxation does Tommy Sheridan or the SNP propose to deal with the many other demands that they make for health, education, transport and so on?
The Parliament should reject amendment 97, but I am interested in hearing the SNP be clearer about where it stands. Tommy Sheridan does not expect to be elected to power next year and I suspect that the SNP does not either, as it is sitting on the fence.
I assure Tommy Sheridan that the Liberal Democrats, at UK level, have argued consistently for a more progressive tax system. We regret that the Labour Government in Westminster has not brought in such a system. However, we do not feel that using the water system is the right way to introduce progressive taxation. We will certainly continue to press for a more progressive tax system at Westminster, where MPs have the power to decide the issue.
We feel that the 40 per cent rate of income tax should go up for those who earn £100,000 or more, but we do not support amendment 97.
Questions must be asked about the mechanics and arithmetic of amendment 97. It seems strange that Tommy Sheridan is making a proposal whereby people would pay less for their public services—by his rhetoric—but more money would be made available for those services. There is a flaw in his argument that the scheme would deliver £201 million more for water and sewerage services in Scotland.
Tommy Sheridan is right to suggest that the average payment in the West of Scotland Water area for a family living in a band D house is £266. Under his scheme, a family living in a band D house in that area and on the UK average income would pay £534, which is double what they pay just now. There are real issues about the arithmetic of Tommy Sheridan's suggestion.
Why should we stop at water? Why do we not have income tax for gas and electricity? If we wanted to take the socialist line, we could do that.
We do not have a bill in front of us to do that.
Will some people end up paying three, four or five income taxes, so that the amount of tax that they pay exceeds considerably the amount that they earn? Is that the world that Tommy Sheridan wants? Perhaps it is, but he should at least be honest about it and not try to dress it up as something that it is not.
I will try to address the points that have been made in the order that they were made.
First, if the minister is absolutely honest with himself, he will conclude that he has failed to grasp the whole concept of the Inland Revenue being contracted to collect the money on behalf of Scottish Water. That is where the £20 million annual charge comes in. That is £25 million less than what is currently spent on collecting water charges.
Given the very restricted powers that the Scottish Parliament has, we must be innovative. We must examine the limited powers that we have to redistribute income. Every single one of us has already been recoded. Andy Kerr, the Minister for Finance and Public Services, could send me a letter breaking down in detail how much each individual in each income band would pay if there were a one penny increase in tax, because the Inland Revenue has already worked that out. We are talking about using that knowledge to have a redistributive form of Scottish water tax, which is where the charge and collection costs come in.
John Scott has the idea that my proposal would drive high earners from Scotland. The Conservatives used the same argument when they were opposed to the Scottish Parliament. I do not know whether he still opposes the Parliament now that he is a member of it, but his party certainly used to oppose it. The Conservatives used to say, "If we have the Parliament, all the high-income earners, the entrepreneurs and the business people will leave Scotland." I do not know whether this will wake John Scott up, but people are leaving already, yet we do not have progressive tax. Progressive tax will not force people out of the country.
Mr Sheridan is correct to say that people are leaving Scotland, but does he agree that they are doing so to live in tax regimes that are much more liberal than ours? Few of them are leaving to go to countries that are more left-wing than here.
I am glad that Bill Aitken raised that point—we might even go into a wee double act together. Does he not know that no country in Europe has a lower tax rate than Britain has? Every other country in Europe has a higher tax rate than Britain has—even America taxes its wealthy at a higher rate than we do. For Bill Aitken's information, I advise him that 200,000 tax exiles from France live in Britain—they are exiled here because of the low tax regime.
You have made your point, Mr Sheridan. Can we get back to amendment 97?
Mr Aitken should bear that point in mind. If he is suggesting that the introduction of a water tax would lead some Tories to leave Scotland, so be it. That, in itself, would be a reason to support the introduction of a water tax.
Bruce Crawford spoke about anomalies and about the fact that more work is required on my proposal, and I accept his point 100 per cent. The University of Paisley is producing an academic research paper. The university has already delivered its first report, which showed that my proposal is feasible, practical and would deliver a redistribution of income. On that basis, I appeal to the SNP to support my amendments.
On Bristow Muldoon's point about competency, I advise him that my proposal is competent. He was absolutely right to argue that tax issues are reserved to Westminster.
I raised the question of vires because, during stage 2, Tommy Sheridan justified his proposal by quoting schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, which gives, as an exception to reserved matters,
"Local taxes to fund local authority expenditure (for example, council tax and non-domestic rates)."
My point is that Tommy Sheridan is not proposing a local tax—he is proposing a national tax.
What is important is what the tax is raised for—the water tax would be raised specifically to cover water and sewerage charges, which makes it an exception under the Scotland Act 1998.
We should increase top-rate tax, because 10p on the rate for those earning £100,000 a year would raise £3.5 billion. Is it not about time that Labour increased the top tax rate nationally? I am sure that, privately, Bristow Muldoon would admit that that should be done.
Des McNulty said that there was a problem with the arithmetic—he was right, but the problem is with his arithmetic. The difficulty is that he cannot add up. Households that are on the average UK income of £17,500 would pay £121 a year. A two-adult household in which both adults earn the average income would pay £242 a year. That is less than any of the average payments in Scotland now.
The proposals in amendments 97, 98 and 101 are redistributive, fair and progressive. I believe that they should be at the core of the Scottish Parliament's work, because they would deliver protection for our poor and for our pensioners.
The question is, that amendment 97 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 80, Abstentions 33.
Amendment 97 disagreed to.
Amendment 25 moved—[Allan Wilson]—and agreed to.
After section 30
Amendment 98 moved—[Tommy Sheridan].
The question is, that amendment 98 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 82, Abstentions 30.
Amendment 98 disagreed to.
Section 31—Approval of charges schemes
Amendment 87 is grouped with amendments 88, 99, 89 and 100.
In speaking to amendments 87, 88 and 89, I bring to the—[Interruption.]
Order. There is a lot of chatter around the chamber.
Thank you, Presiding Officer.
Amendments 87, 88 and 89 are relevant to the charges schemes that customers will have to pay. My intention is to ensure that customers have a voice and that their views are considered in developing charges schemes. Charges will be of fundamental concern to each customer of Scottish Water.
On amendment 87, it is important that the water industry commissioner consults the water customer consultation panels when he draws up charges schemes. If the commissioner is to be the customers' champion, as we hope he will be, he must surely take on board customers' views on charges, as charging is one of the most fundamental activities that Scottish Water will undertake for each of its customers. Even if the water industry commissioner is simply to be an economic regulator—I say that because, when the committee took evidence at stage 1, and again during stage 2, the ministers referred to the water industry commissioner as an "economic regulator"—he should take on board customers' concerns, as the deputy minister conceded during stage 2. The water industry commissioner is to be the customers' champion and is to be concerned with customers' interests, so it is important that the commissioner takes cognisance, through the water customer consultation panels, of customers' views, because it is a fundamental fact that charges will affect them economically. If the water industry commissioner had to seek approval for charges through the customer consultation panels, that would strengthen his advice.
Amendment 88 is about publication of the charges schemes. It should be an absolute given that every customer has access to the full contents of a charges scheme, not just to an amended or an abbreviated version. If the full scheme is not published, customers will ask why they cannot be informed about a scheme for which they must pay. They will wonder what the minister, the water industry commissioner or Scottish Water is trying to hide from them.
Amendment 89 relates to section 32, on the commissioner's advice on charges. When advising on charges, the commissioner must take into account everything except the views of the customers. That seems wrong-headed and top-down rather than bottom-up.
Amendments 99 and 100 are about informing Parliament and involving it in the process of achieving a charges scheme. I hope that no parliamentarian would not want to be involved in that process.
I move amendment 87.
Under amendment 99, parliamentary approval would be required for any increase in water charges that was above the rate of inflation.
There is widespread concern about the escalation of water charges since water was removed from local authority control and the quangos took over. In my area, for example, water was owned and controlled by Central Regional Council until 1995-96. We had the lowest water charges in the whole of western Europe and the council had a progressive, forward-looking investment programme for capital projects.
Since the East of Scotland Water quango took over, there has been an increase in band D water charges of more than 170 per cent, which is well above the rate of inflation for the period in question. In the year 1998-99 alone, the increase was 40 per cent—more than 26 times the rate of inflation for that period.
Similarly, in Tayside region there has been an increase of 123 per cent since the North of Scotland Water Authority quango took over from Tayside Regional Council. Between 2000 and 2001, the increase was 45 per cent, which was 25 times the rate of inflation for that period.
Such increases have placed huge—and, in some cases, intolerable—burdens on consumers. The quangos and the Executive claim that such excessive increases are necessary to fund the capital investment projects that are required. The public find that difficult to accept. Who do they complain to? They complain to members of the Scottish Parliament, as their elected representatives. Therefore, we should have the opportunity of monitoring increases and, if necessary, vetoing them, when they are above the rate of inflation.
Under amendment 99, it would be up to Scottish Water and the Scottish Executive to justify such increases to Parliament. Parliament would have the opportunity to approve or disapprove them. Such arrangements would make Scottish Water's charges schemes more accountable to the consumers through their elected representatives in the Parliament. The amendment would ensure a greater degree of parliamentary accountability and a fairer deal for the consumer.
I ask the Parliament to approve amendment 99.
Amendment 100 is about accountability and transparency. It is designed to further strengthen the hand of the commissioner, who will play a vital role in the success or failure of Scottish Water. Although we all expect Scottish Water to be a success, it is important that the commissioner's advice on charging is heeded. If it is not taken account of, or is modified, that must not be done furtively or behind closed doors. The reason for ignoring or modifying the commissioner's advice must be the subject of parliamentary scrutiny. That is why I lodged amendment 100.
In the interests of the timetable, I will go straight to the minister.
The level of charges is a sensitive issue, about which we must be properly concerned. The amendments that we are discussing seek to alter the arrangements that are set out in the bill for preparing, approving and publishing the charges.
We must be careful about the sensitive balance between the customer—and the commissioner, who, after all, is charged with acting on behalf of the customer—and an industry that is trying to do a job under the control of the Parliament. Scottish Water will be accountable for providing the highest possible quality of water and the best quality service for sewerage disposal at the most competitive price in the interests of the Scottish public. That is a difficult balance to achieve.
The provision in amendments 87 and 89 for the involvement of the customer panels ignores what the water industry commissioner will do under the existing proposals. The panels will have the general function of representing local views. The commissioner's role is to take an objective view of the totality of customers in relation to charges schemes. I am convinced that provisions already exist for the panels' views on charges to be appropriately referred to and taken account of by the commissioner, because section 2(5) of the bill states that the commissioner must have regard to the panels' representations, reports and recommendations.
In relation to amendment 89 in particular, it is important to leave the role of approving charges schemes to the commissioner, who is the independent economic regulator—that is the correct phrase—with all the relevant expertise. It is appropriate that quality and standards priorities, environmental obligations, the panels' views and ministerial directions about quality objectives are all part of the consideration. The commissioner must take account of all those factors before reaching a decision.
Amendment 88 provides for the publication of a charges scheme by whoever approved it—the commissioner or the Scottish ministers. That provision is unnecessary—section 33 of the bill provides for a summary of the charges to be published by Scottish Water and for the full scheme to be made available.
Amendment 100 provides for the reasons for ministers' modification or rejection of the commissioner's advice to be laid before Parliament, which would be a backward step. Under section 32(7), all the relevant papers on a charges review—including ministerial correspondence—will be published. I am confident that full disclosure will enable a full understanding of the outcome. Fragmenting the publication process would not be a benefit.
Dennis Canavan raised the interesting notion that charges should stick to the level of inflation. Although that is superficially attractive, we must remind ourselves of our purpose in creating Scottish Water. On the advice of the water industry commissioner, it is clear that the only way that we can control charging and make Scottish Water more efficient and more responsible to its consumers is to create Scottish Water in the form that is set out in the bill.
Dennis Canavan might have a nostalgic view of his local authority, but the truth is that the Scottish water industry has had to spend £2 billion over the past three years and will need to spend £2 billion in the next three years. That needs to be paid for. That level of investment cannot be obtained without cost. The water industry commissioner has made it clear that a revenue cap is needed to drive down charges, which have risen over the past three or four years, but it is important to take a strategic view on that.
Will the minister give way?
No, I must close.
The Transport and the Environment Committee recognised that the industry's massive investment needs mean that, even with major efficiency improvements, further increases will be required. Legislating to make it impossible or difficult for Scottish Water to meet the necessary targets would be highly undesirable. Accordingly, I invite Parliament to reject all the amendments in the group.
Fiona McLeod may speak for one minute.
I should inform members that my stage 2 amendments on the code of practice and customer involvement were similar to my amendments in this group. Those amendments were accepted by the minister and agreed to by the committee. It would be logical for members to accept my argument that the customer's voice should be heard before charges can be increased. Given the recent unnecessary increases in charges from both East of Scotland Water and West of Scotland Water, we must support amendment 99.
The question is, that amendment 87 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 66, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 87 disagreed to.
Amendment 88 moved—[Fiona McLeod].
The question is, that amendment 88 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 88 disagreed to.
Amendment 99 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 99 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 33, Against 82, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 99 disagreed to.
Section 32—Commissioner's advice on charges
Amendment 89 not moved.
Amendment 100 moved—[John Scott].
The question is, that amendment 100 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 100 disagreed to.
Section 35—Collection of charges by local authority
Amendment 101 not moved.
Section 36—Primacy of duty to maintain domestic water supply etc
Amendment 26 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 37—Reduced charges
Amendment 27 is grouped with amendments 1, 90 and 102. We have slipped slightly behind our timetable, so I ask speakers to be as brief as possible.
Section 37 has generated considerable interest. Yesterday, the Executive announced the details of the water charges exemption scheme for smaller voluntary organisations. The result is that a full exemption from charges will be provided for four years for all premises that are currently eligible for charge relief, provided that the organisation that is responsible for paying the charges has an income of less than £50,000 a year.
Scottish Water will provide the exemptions in regulations that will be issued by ministers under section 37. At present, the bill is drafted in such a way that the regulations could provide only for reductions and not for exemptions. As the intention is that organisations could be totally exempted from charges rather than simply have their charges reduced, amendment 27 is necessary to give ministers sufficient statutory backing.
The purpose behind the Executive's scheme is to ensure that the continued phased withdrawal of reliefs does not affect those groups and bodies that provide local service with little or no support from central or local government. From the outset, that objective has been shared by the Transport and the Environment Committee, which concluded in its stage 1 report that the current reliefs arrangement is
"too broad-brush and not sustainable".
My concern with amendments 1, 90 and 102 is that each takes as a starting point the definition of a Scottish charity that appears in the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990. As a result, the amendments would extend reliefs well beyond those premises that currently receive them. The amendments would extend the reliefs to something like 30,000 bodies and cause a consequential cost increase of about £27 million. The cost could be more if other organisations were to take advantage of the new approach by establishing themselves or parts of their organisations as charities. For example, local authority swimming pools or various university premises might attempt such a move.
Obviously, that would go in the opposite direction from that which was advocated by the Transport and the Environment Committee. In the process, a substantial and open-ended burden would be placed on Scottish Water and its customers, who are ultimately the people who must meet the costs of relief. That extra cost on customers should be seen in the context of our previous debate on Mr Sheridan's amendments 97 and 98.
That situation simply would not be sustainable. Indeed, it would not be fair, as costs would be passed on to customers, who would effectively face a 5 per cent surcharge or compulsory charitable donation. For people on low incomes of £10,000 or less per annum or for people on fixed incomes, that would be neither equitable nor fair.
Will the minister give way?
I am sorry. I have to be brief, but I am happy to come back and answer any points later.
There was a full and useful debate at stage 2, and we have had constructive discussions with the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations and representatives of churches and youth organisations. I met representatives from those groups and we announced our proposals yesterday. Our proposals, which we have drawn up after consultation with those organisations, are good news for local halls, churches and other organisations and premises that will receive relief as they do at present. Most, if not all, of those organisations will pay no charges at all for four years and will be eligible for a further four-year exemption if they still satisfy the scheme's criteria at that point.
In addition to that significant scheme, there will be a hardship fund for the next two years, which will help those groups that face particular hardship as a result of the withdrawal of relief, even though they exceed the income threshold.
I believe that targeting help where it is needed is the right approach. It contrasts with the approaches underpinning the amendments that have been lodged by Robin Harper, Richard Lochhead and Dennis Canavan, which I believe are unsustainable and unfair. I therefore recommend that Parliament reject amendments 1, 90 and 102.
I move amendment 27.
At stage 2, Jackie Baillie lodged an amendment that was identical to amendment 1, except that amendment 1 reduces the amount of the water charges that charities would have to pay from 30 to 20 per cent. That would make very little difference to the people paying, but a great deal of difference to the charities. I thank Jackie Baillie for providing the basis for amendment 1. As she said at stage 2, the purpose of the amendment is quite clear. It would provide for all Scottish charities a relief scheme that is based on metered water supplies.
I understand that Scottish Water will move to metering all non-domestic supplies by the end of March 2003. Subsection (1) of amendment 1 proposes the free installation of meters for Scottish charities and paragraphs (a) and (b) ensure that meters are installed by 31 March 2003 or as soon as reasonably practicable. The target is challenging but, as Jackie Baillie said, many voluntary organisations are already metered, and the aim is achievable.
Subsection (2) of amendment 1 says that
"Scottish Water must provide detailed advice on … minimising water consumption".
Water conservation is vital, even in a wet country such as Scotland, not because water is in short supply, but because supplying it costs money and uses resources. I direct members' attention to article 9 of the forthcoming EU water framework directive, on water pricing policies. That article will insist on efficiency in water use, so we might as well start moving with the spirit of the directive now.
Subsection (3) is the nub of amendment 1. It gives charities 80 per cent relief and largely maintains the status quo. That is what the Executive proposes to do, but only for the next four to eight years.
Subsection (4) refers to local authorities because I understand—again, from what Jackie Baillie said—that some local authorities provide assistance with water provision on a one-off basis for agricultural shows and village fetes, for example.
Subsection (5) determines that the amendment covers all Scottish charities. The Executive's suggested income threshold of £50,000 a year is not sufficient. Organisations such as the National Trust for Scotland, the Scottish Wildlife Trust and larger social charities will not be covered. Charities that are high-volume water users, such as hospices, care homes and disabled day care centres, will not ultimately be helped by the Executive's scheme. The Executive's argument that local and central Government should reflect the withdrawal of reliefs by increasing grants to charities is unrealistic and is passing the buck, as there is no guarantee that such compensation would be paid in the long term.
The current cost of charitable relief is estimated at £15 million. The Executive has just revealed that it reckons that my proposal would cost £27 million. In reality, that still means only a few pounds on people's water bills. Has anybody in this chamber yet received one letter from any constituent complaining about the amount of subsidy that they are already paying to charities? I am willing to bet that the answer to that question would be no.
Charities will have to pay large amounts of money out of badly needed funds if the bill goes through without amendment 1. I understand that Capability Scotland is set to lose £90,000 and that the National Trust for Scotland will lose more than £100,000. That is the equivalent of five full-time posts or 14 seasonal posts. Let us not take those funds away from charities. Amendment 1 would maintain the status quo and provide a guarantee for charities in the future.
Amendment 90 is the SNP's second and final attempt to amend the bill in this way. Our case for retaining the on-going commitment to give 80 per cent water rates relief to charities is simple. The whole point of keeping the water industry in public ownership is to help us to deliver social justice in Scotland. That is why we have to include in the bill the commitment to help the voluntary and charitable sector. We are talking not about a new arrangement, but about a continuance of the existing arrangements. We are not talking about new costs.
Executive ministers have made a mess of the issue over the past two or three years. A number of players have acted out various shambolic scenes in the comedy of errors that we have witnessed over that period. First there was Sarah Boyack, then Sam Galbraith, then Rhona Brankin, then Allan Wilson, and today Ross Finnie.
The SNP's campaign has been vindicated, because we have come quite a long way in two years. When the campaign started more than two years ago, the voluntary sector's pleas to the Executive about the proposed removal of all water rates relief were totally ignored. After that, the Government introduced a delay, but that still did not sort out the problem. The next minister introduced another delay in the phasing of the withdrawals. Then there was a leaked memo from the Executive saying that it would exempt organisations that had an annual income of less than £5,000. Then, on the eve of stage 2, the position changed again so that organisations with an income of less than £10,000 would be exempt. Last night, at the 11th hour, just before the stage 3 debate, the Executive upped that threshold to £50,000 and offered a hardship fund.
Does Richard Lochhead welcome that increase?
As I said, we welcome all five of the concessions that have been made so far as a result of the outcry from the voluntary sector in Scotland and from the SNP and other parties in this Parliament.
I refer the minister to yesterday's press release from the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, which was headed "Executive running in right direction over water". Well, that is quite right. The Executive is running in the right direction. The difficulty is that it has not arrived. If amendment 90 is agreed to today, we will have arrived.
The last thing that our voluntary sector and charitable organisations need is for water rates reliefs to be removed at a time when the basic rate of water charges has increased substantially over recent years. Jackie Baillie told the committee at stage 2 that charities would lose £15 million because of that decision. If we introduced water meters, that would save £6 million, leaving a bill of £9 million. The minister's announcement yesterday offers £500,000 of support. That would leave a bill of £8.5 million for the charitable sector, the bulk of which would be paid for by organisations with an income of more than £50,000, which are not exempt. Those organisations will include hospices, care homes and nursing homes.
It is imperative that this Parliament sends out the right message to the voluntary sector in Scotland today. Those organisations devote their time to helping the more vulnerable members of our society. Surely, for the first time in centuries, our new Scottish Parliament should not remove that principle from the bill today, but should continue to give 80 per cent water rates relief to charities. I ask each and every MSP in the chamber to look at their mailbags over recent months and years and to support amendment 90, so that we can continue to support the organisations that support the more vulnerable people in our society.
I will concentrate my remarks on amendment 102, in my name. The Executive seems to have accepted the principle of reduced charges for certain categories of consumer. However, the indications so far are that the Executive's proposals are inadequate. As I understand it, the Executive proposes exemptions for organisations that currently qualify for relief and that have an annual income of less than £50,000 in respect of the premises that the organisation occupies. I welcome the raising of the threshold, which was initially £5,000, was increased to £10,000 and is now £50,000—it is beginning to look like an auction. However, the Executive is not going far enough.
The Executive proposals would rule out relief for many deserving organisations that have an annual income of more than £50,000, including organisations that provide a valuable service to the community, such as churches, hospices and miners welfare organisations. Those organisations would find it more difficult to provide that valuable service if relief from water charges was withdrawn.
Take Strathcarron hospice in my constituency, which provides an excellent service to people with terminal illnesses and their families. The hospice has an annual turnover of about £2.8 million. About half the hospice's revenue comes from voluntary subscription. Relief from water charges currently amounts to about £9,000 per annum. Under the Executive proposals, the hospice would lose that money and would have to find another £9,000 per annum from voluntary subscription in order to maintain its excellent standards of patient care.
Under amendment 102, charities such as that hospice, and other approved organisations, would be eligible for at least 80 per cent and up to 100 per cent exemption from water charges. The criticism has been that if we give relief to all charities there might be some that are undeserving cases. It has been suggested that some of the biggest beneficiaries of such a proposal would be private fee-paying schools. Amendment 102 attempts to address that criticism by excluding such schools.
Will the member give way?
In view of the time scale it would not be reasonable for Mr Canavan to take an intervention. I would like Mr Canavan to conclude as quickly as possible.
Any deserving organisations might be considered under section 37 as it is drafted. I ask the Parliament to support amendment 102, which will enable charities such as hospices and churches to continue their valuable service to the community.
I will call as many members as I can to speak, but I would be obliged if members could limit their speeches to two minutes.
We had a lengthy debate in the Transport and the Environment Committee about the balance between social responsibility and the burden that it is legitimate to place on charge payers. The committee's view was that we needed a more targeted scheme than that currently in place. We said that such a scheme should concentrate on voluntary organisations that had premises that were not supported from local or central Government sources; we considered premises such as scout huts and church halls to be particularly vulnerable to the sudden imposition of charges. I am delighted that the minister has listened to the committee and has proposed a very good scheme, which is probably more generous than the scheme that the committee initially envisaged. When we consider the problems and issues involved, it seems that the minister has come up with a scheme that will satisfy the vast range of local organisations—those are the people in whom we were particularly interested.
Richard Lochhead makes a point about supporting social justice. That is important, but it is also important that we support social justice in the right way. The primary mechanism for that should be a social justice budget delivered by central Government, rather than relief from water charges.
At an earlier stage—in the committee report and at stage 1—Robin Harper signed up to the principle of a more targeted scheme. He has not made clear why he is now taking a different view in amendment 1. Richard Lochhead does not understand his own amendment. Amendment 90 does not maintain the status quo but would make a significant extension to the current scheme by including all charities. Dennis Canavan made a point about hospices. My understanding is that the minister gave a clear commitment that the position of hospices would be protected in relation to the extension of charges scheme. That is something that I have campaigned for strongly. The biggest hospice in the UK is in my constituency and I am delighted that the minister has responded positively to our suggestions.
I want to get to the fundamentals. Every member must see this as an example of our commitment to Scotland's charities. While we wait for the Executive to introduce charity legislation, we need the Water Industry (Scotland) Bill to show that we support Scotland's charities by giving them 80 per cent relief from water charges. If we vote against including such a provision in the bill, how can we say that we have a compact with the voluntary sector to deliver vital services to some of the most vulnerable members of our society?
There are problems with the latest deal. The minister asked whether we welcome the deal. I have pushed and pushed on the issue and the Executive has moved and moved, so of course we welcome it. However, the problem is that it takes us back to special pleading. Two members have talked about hospices. Because of the special pleading on hospices, the Executive said at stage 2 that Malcolm Chisholm would ensure that the money that hospices receive from the Government covered water charges. Do we have to keep making special pleas for different charities? The new hardship fund is a case of more special pleading, making more special cases and having charities tied up in bureaucracy to plead with the Executive to pay their water bills. It is not appropriate and it is not right that we ask charities to do that.
Amendment 1 is not ideal, although we will support it because it is better than nothing. However, the issue is not conservation and the amendment will affect disproportionately charities that need to use water to deliver their services, such as hospices. We cannot support amendment 102 because fee-paying schools are not just private schools. The seven grant-maintained schools—Donaldson's College, the Craighalbert Centre, the Royal Blind School and so on—are charities that provide a national service. We cannot put them under threat.
Will the member give way?
No. The member cannot take an intervention at this point.
I urge members to vote for amendment 90. That provision must be included in the bill to prove to voluntary and charitable organisations that the Parliament is serious in supporting their work and will not tax them in it.
I am extremely disappointed by some of the speeches that have been made. At stage 1, Fiona McLeod made none of the points that she just made. However, I am glad that she listens and learns. As Robin Harper and Richard Lochhead are both so keen to agree with and quote my opinion, perhaps they will support what I am about to say.
I have no doubt that section 37 was the most contentious section at stage 2—particularly for voluntary organisations and charities that currently enjoy relief from water charges. Timing is everything. In April, many voluntary organisations will, for the first time, lose up to 40 per cent relief. It is therefore essential that we move quickly. That will place a significant burden on many voluntary organisations that have few reserves, little flexibility and limited funding streams. That is why I lodged an amendment at stage 2, which was supported by Maureen Macmillan and several other Labour MSPs. The Executive—helpfully—agreed to reflect further on the amendment's proposal in order to ensure that there is targeted relief for voluntary organisations.
I welcome and endorse the Executive's proposal, which is based not on the size of an organisation—I point out to Fiona McLeod that the Water Industry (Scotland) Bill is not the place to define charities—but on premises. The proposal is based not on a turnover of £5,000, which was the starting point, but on premises' income of up to £50,000. I particularly welcome the hardship fund of £1 million for organisations that might initially encounter difficulty if they do not meet the eligibility criteria. I also note that the minister will consult the voluntary sector on the detail of the scheme. That is also welcome because we will produce better policies and outcomes if we involve the voluntary sector early.
I ask for the minister's response to four very quick points. First, I seek confirmation that the income threshold for premises relates to income generated by those premises and so excludes staff costs for running the services. Secondly, does the relief cover consumption and standing charges? Thirdly, will free water metering continue to be available, together with advice and practical support on water conservation? Last, will the minister reflect further on the date of eligibility for the small number of voluntary organisations that have moved premises and lost relief as a consequence?
I conclude by emphasising my support and, I hope, the chamber's support for the Executive's proposals. I know that those proposals will be welcomed by community organisations in my area. They are a positive example of a committee and the Executive working together and I thank the minister for listening.
I supported Richard Lochhead's stage 2 amendment and I intend to support amendment 90 today. As I said at stage 2, the targeted relief that is proposed by the Executive misses the target. Large charities are every bit as important to Scotland as small ones and for the Government to suggest otherwise is simply dishonest. The Conservative party's campaign on behalf of such charities has never faltered.
In particular, charities that use high volumes of water must have allowances made for their needs. I refer again to the Ayrshire Hospice, Malcolm Sargeant Cancer Fund for Children and Hansel Village in my constituency as three charities that spring immediately to mind. Their costs will rocket if the reliefs are discontinued.
The Executive's proposals have a Dickensian feel about them, with Ross Finnie playing the unlikely role of Scrooge and Richard Lochhead and I as rather well-fed stand-ins for Oliver Twist. However, there is an argument that some charities are more in need of support than others. That is self-evident. Until the Executive makes proposals that result from the McFadden report—which attempts to sort out the more deserving from the less deserving—we have a duty to support all charities equally. Until the Executive makes better proposals that my party is happy to examine on their merits, we must not throw the baby out with the bath water and, in so doing, damage our most valuable charities.
It is essential that our major charities also enjoy reliefs. Although I welcome the new £50,000 threshold, it is important that we agree today that our larger charities should benefit and continue to benefit from the 80 per cent reliefs that they currently enjoy. I urge the chamber to consider that.
I would like to bring the debate back within the parameters of the real world. What will be the amendments' end result?
When the three water authorities were set up, charitable reliefs were to be withdrawn because it was deemed to be inappropriate that water-charge payers support charities that should be supported by the public purse.
Will the member take an intervention?
I do not have enough time to take interventions and Richard Lochhead has had his turn.
The Government intervened so that the burden did not fall immediately on charities. We are now setting up a new body and removing charitable relief from an area in which such relief is inappropriate and returning it to an area in which public support for charities is appropriate.
The debate is not about whether charitable effort should be supported—that is a given. The argument is about the sensible way to support charities and whether it is sensible to make all water-charge payers, some of whom are the vulnerable people we have been talking about, pick up the social bill for charitable effort that the public purse should be paying.
We say that we should support charities, but if we agree to such open-ended and generous amendments on charitable relief, it is not we who are being generous, but we who are being generous on behalf of water-charge payers who—as has been said—include people on low incomes. Members should bear that in mind because that is the real debate.
The Transport and the Environment Committee debated the issue. We zeroed in on a group of charities that we thought would be liable to be disadvantaged by the removal of reliefs. We thought that those charities should get more time to adjust to the withdrawal of charitable reliefs. We asked the Executive to come back with a targeted scheme, which it did, although there were criticisms of it. The Executive went to the SCVO and the voluntary sector and then made the scheme more generous. It has added a limited hardship fund to pick up unforeseen special cases. That is laudable and I welcome it.
We must bear in mind the end result, which should be that charitable relief does not sit with water-charge payers, but with the public purse. We are not talking about whether to support voluntary effort, but about the best and most appropriate way to do that.
I will be as brief as I can.
The Executive's priority is clearly the delivery of social justice. One of the anomalies of the bill has been that the debate has concentrated on water relief when the aims and objectives of the bill are to establish a single company to oversee the water industry. The bill is not ideal for the purpose of discussing social justice.
Does the minister acknowledge that during the stage 1 debate at the Transport and the Environment Committee, Robin Harper, Fiona McLeod, Adam Ingram and John Scott all supported proposals that are more or less the same as those that are now being proposed by the Executive?
I acknowledge what Bristow Muldoon said. I have noticed certain inconsistencies in the SNP's approach to the matter.
I clarify the position for the benefit of the nationalists, who do not seem to understand what is being proposed. Scotland's 13 hospices will receive separate treatment outside the relief scheme. Water charges are not a significant part of those hospices' overall running costs. I have calculated that the charges constitute less than half of 1 per cent of their costs. Withdrawal will be taken into account along with the increased health board funding that was announced by my colleagues in the health department.
Will the minister give way?
Will the minister take an intervention?
I will take an intervention from Dennis Canavan.
Is the minister saying that the Minister for Health and Community Care will give to health boards a ring-fenced additional amount of money for each hospice? For example, in the case of Strathcarron Hospice, will the Executive give an additional ring-fenced £9,000 per annum to Forth Valley NHS Board to make up for the money that it is losing through the loss of water relief?
Lest there be any doubt, the answer to that question is yes. Is that clear enough for the nationalists among us?
Will the minister give way?
With respect, I must move on.
A number of important questions were asked by my colleagues. To the questions on income that is generated and free meters, the answers are yes—the expected date of implementation applies to all those currently being charged.
I believe that the scheme is workable and that it will benefit more than 90 per cent of the groups that were targeted by the Transport and the Environment Committee as being deserving of the charitable relief that we now intend to provide. I commend the scheme to the Parliament.
The question is, that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
The result of the division is: For 114, Against 0, Abstentions 2.
Amendment 27 agreed to.
After section 37
I probably should not do this, but since I have everybody here I advise members that they are requested to take their places by 1.45 at the latest this afternoon, for the address by the Portuguese president.
Amendment 1 moved—[Robin Harper].
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 33, Against 79, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 1 disagreed to.
Amendment 90 moved—[Richard Lochhead].
The question is, that amendment 90 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 90 disagreed to.
Amendment 102 moved—[Dennis Canavan].
The question is, that amendment 102 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 109, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 102 disagreed to.
Section 46—Interests of customers
Amendment 103 is grouped with amendments 28, 30, 29, 31, 32 and 33. I will have to be tight on time with this group.
When one starts moving amendments to bills it becomes addictive. My amendment today—amendment 103—relates to development, and arises because of my concern about the current situation with West of Scotland Water in Dumfries and Galloway. That is a situation that is, I am sure, replicated throughout Scotland. On 29 January, Dumfries and Galloway Council unanimously passed a motion to express its grave concern at the effect that West of Scotland Water's constraints were having on the implementation of the council's development plan, and the effect that those constraints were likely to have on the building industry and on employment in the building industry in Dumfries and Galloway.
The way in which West of Scotland Water is interpreting the exercise of its functions is impeding development and supplanting the planning system. Dumfries and Galloway Council goes through the proper democratic process in determining whether development should or should not take place, but West of Scotland Water has, in effect, a veto. The concern is that the new Scottish Water will not only continue with that practice, but will make it worse because the organisation will not have specific geographical ties.
We have many significant settlements in the south-west, such as Langholm, Castle Douglas and Stranraer. Development in those places is being constrained by West of Scotland Water. West of Scotland Water said that it was carrying out a survey into the state of the local water and sewerage system, but instead of using the survey to support the council's development plan, it is using it to object at every turn to development. My amendment 103 seeks to make Scottish Water work with local authorities, not so that Scottish Water can be told where to invest, but so that it supports local authorities' development plans. That is the proper process.
I have received representations—as have other members from the south-west—from the Federation of Master Builders in Scotland. The Parliament has received a petition, which has been signed by 2,000 people. That petition relates specifically to Dumfries and Galloway, but the issue applies throughout rural Scotland. I hope, given the way in which amendment 103 is worded, that the minister will accept it.
I move amendment 103.
I understand the desire behind amendment 103, which is to ensure that those who live in rural and remote areas are not disadvantaged. Indeed, I agreed with an amendment of John Scott's at stage 2 to add the word "remote" to section 46. Section 46 as amended addresses David Mundell's concerns, so I ask members to reject amendment 103. I do not think that section 46 does not cover, for example, economic development.
Executive amendments 28, 30, 29, 31, 32 and 33 have been lodged because of a number of commitments that I made at stage 2. The rationale behind the establishment of Scottish Water can be summed up in one word—efficiency. At stage 2, Des McNulty argued that there ought to be an explicit duty on Scottish Water to act with due regard to economy, efficiency and effectiveness. We agree that a specific duty requiring Scottish Water to endeavour to ensure that it uses the resources that are at its disposal economically, efficiently and effectively is desirable and would be a sensible addition to the bill. Amendment 28 will impose such a duty.
There was concern among the Transport and the Environment Committee's members that the public access duties on Scottish Water were framed solely in terms of areas of natural beauty and the like. We recognise that what matters for a lot of people is that they have reasonable access to land that is held by Scottish Water. Amendment 29 seeks therefore to place a general duty on Scottish Water to
"have regard to the desirability of preserving for the public any freedom of access",
which includes access for recreational purposes.
Amendment 30 addresses another concern that was expressed by the Transport and the Environment Committee at stage 2 about the treatment of sustainable development in the bill. There was concern that as drafted, the bill treated sustainable development as part of environmental protection. Amendment 30 recognises the social and economic dimensions to the principle of sustainable development, and as such meets the concerns that were expressed by the Transport and the Environment Committee. Amendments 31 and 32 are consequential on amendment 30. I commend those amendments to the chamber.
At stage 2 of the bill, Des McNulty and others argued passionately for Scottish Water to be required to include in its annual report descriptions of how it would comply with the duties that are placed on it. They asked for descriptions of customer standards and local consultation codes, and of the duties on using resources economically, efficiently and effectively with a view to sustainable development. Amendment 33 will require Scottish Water to report on those matters in its annual report. Amendment 33 will also require Scottish Water, if it fails to comply with the customer and consultation codes, to set out the reasons for that failure.
The Executive amendments in the group are testament to the hard work of the members of the Transport and the Environment Committee, and of other representations that were made to me. The result is improvement to the bill.
I urge members to support amendments 28 to 33.
I can give one minute to Alasdair Morgan.
I support Mr Mundell's amendment 103. The situation of people in my constituency is that West of Scotland Water has, in effect, put a veto on further housing development in nearly every major settlement. In many cases, the veto has come out of the blue.
Small builders who have applied for planning permission on one or two sites that they own have received planning permission only to find that West of Scotland Water objects at the stage at which the builder seeks permission to connect to the mains. At such a late stage, West of Scotland Water has said that no sewerage capacity is available. Small builders cannot afford the outlay in such instances.
It is ironic that the minister who has responsibility for rural development is, at the same time, supervising the water industry which—in my constituency—is putting a total blight on rural development. We need to address that issue.
There is no time remaining to allow David Mundell to respond to the debate. I ask him to press or withdraw amendment 103.
The matter is important. I press amendment 103.
The question is, that amendment 103 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division. It will be a two-minute division—someone might want to tell the members in the coffee lounge.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Before I give the result of the vote, I remind members to respect the ruling that they should not cross the well of the chamber.
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 64, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 103 disagreed to.
After section 46
Amendments 28, 30 and 29 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 47—Environmental matters
Amendments 31 and 32 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Section 49—Directions
Amendment 104 is grouped with amendment 111.
Members will recall the stage 1 debate, but when it comes to the question of determining where the Scottish Executive and other agencies will locate their offices, contrary to all the statements received from the Executive and assurances given by ministers in correspondence that they will locate such offices throughout Scotland, we find that offices are taken away from areas such as Dumfries. I have raised that issue with the minister, as have the constituency MSP Dr Elaine Murray, and Alasdair Morgan.
Amendment 104 seeks to ensure that Scottish Water acts consistently with what is said to be Scottish Executive policy on the distribution of jobs throughout Scotland. The jobs that are provided by West of Scotland Water in Dumfries are significant—they are well-paid jobs in an area that has the lowest earned income in Scotland. The facts that have been presented have not justified the removal of such jobs.
When Dr Murray and I met Professor Alan Alexander, the current chairman of West of Scotland Water, he could not cite a single cost saving that would be achieved by moving jobs from the low-cost area of the south-west of Scotland to the centre of Glasgow. I met subsequently the water commissioner who made it clear that, of the private water companies that operate in England, the companies that are the most effective and efficient are those that have pursued a policy of diverse location of employment. The companies that centralised their operations are those that are doing least well in serving their customers.
If people are going to argue that jobs should be taken out of rural Scotland, which—as Mr Morgan pointed out in support of amendment 103—is the responsibility of Mr Finnie, they must be able to demonstrate that that will create some benefit to somebody. On Tuesday, at a meeting of the Public Petitions Committee, Paul Hyles of Unison pointed out that West of Scotland Water is prepared to pay a fortune to allow people to travel from Dumfries to Glasgow, but it is not prepared to have people based in the Dumfries office.
I find myself frustrated by the continual ministerial assurances that Executive policy is not about the centralisation of jobs away from rural Scotland—assurances which are not backed up on the ground. As long as Scottish Water remains a public entity it should act in accordance with the Scottish Executive's policy on the distribution of work through Scotland.
I move amendment 104.
The tone of what I will say in speaking to amendment 111 will be the same as that which David Mundell used when he moved amendment 103.
As an island—indeed a rural—member, I wish to express concern about the function and location of local offices of the new water organisation. I do so more in the sense of how best to find a mechanism to tackle the obvious consumer and community concerns about proposals that Scottish Water may have to remove local offices. I also want to pick up on the point made by Mr Mundell about the natural tendency of such large, centrally based organisations to centralise their powers.
Amendment 111 would lay an obligation on Scottish Water to carry out engineering, planning, design and operational work in local offices, unless the organisation can show that moving such work to a central location would save money. Furthermore, Scottish Water would be obliged to make such a case to the water commissioner.
I respect the minister's arguments on amendment 24 and the consultation code. However, as far as centralisation is concerned, I want to push him on how we can best make the same argument, using the routes that are available in the bill. After a spirited group discussion on this point, I came to recognise that amendment 111 gives rise to two specific concerns. In particular, Keith Raffan pointed out that it would be wrong for the Parliament to seek to micromanage Scottish Water. Indeed, I take that point.
The other significant concern about amendment 111 focuses on the central issue of efficiency. Scottish Water is required to achieve a level of savings across the whole network and any impediment to that requirement might translate into charges for individual consumers. As a result, the central question is how we can best achieve a mechanism that allows local communities to have some input into decisions about offices in their own locality. I have pressed the minister and written to the chairman designate of Scottish Water on those points.
This morning, ministers should provide clear guidance about how the consultation code would work in relation to the closure of a local office. Would that be considered under subsection (1) of the new section proposed by amendment 24? Furthermore, would that provision take into account issues such as office closures and substantial changes in staffing complements, expertise and retained functions? Amendment 111 is a method of achieving the same end as amendment 24, and I invite the minister to consider its merits.
I am sympathetic to amendment 111, as it seeks to protect personnel in rural areas, particularly in Shetland. However, I must reluctantly speak against it, even though I realise that Tavish Scott will once again express his great disappointment with me in the pages of The Shetland Times.
If we agreed to amendment 111 it would affect not only local offices, but the whole country, as it could mean a protracted consultation if Scottish Water wished in any way to restructure its operation to become more competitive. If Tavish Scott has read the Transport and the Environment Committee's report on its inquiry into the water industry, he will recall that the committee believed that it was imperative for Scottish Water to restructure as quickly as possible to ensure that it was ready to face competition from private companies. At the same time, it would have to manage human resources sensitively.
I am sure that Tavish Scott believes—as I do—that services are often more economically and effectively delivered at local level. If that is true, Scottish Water should have the nous to act accordingly without having to go through lengthy consultations that might jeopardise its overall efficiency and—as the committee report says—its "competitive position". That "may have serious consequences" for the authority, its staff and the communities that it serves.
However, I do not want Scottish Water automatically to believe that centralisation is best. I urge the organisation to consider rural offices and the good work that they do.
I support the general thrust of amendments 111 and 104 and hope that we will receive a convincing reply from the ministers that the Parliament and the Executive will take the issue of decentralisation seriously. We have accepted the general idea of having one water board; indeed, there might be good arguments for such an approach. However, any human organisation has a tendency towards centralisation. The offices of large organisations are sited for the convenience of the top brass; the proximity of the golf course patronised by the boss is more important than any organisational efficiencies that might be made. We must combat such a tendency, and ensure that Scottish Water is run sensibly and that it reflects the views of local communities. When the minister responds to amendments 104 and 111, he must explain how those objectives will be achieved.
I supported Tavish Scott on this issue during the committee's stage 2 considerations and I feel impelled to support him and David Mundell in the chamber. The net result of agreeing to amendments 104 and 111 would be a happier work force locked into local communities and, in the long run, greater efficiency and a better quality of service. I will therefore vote for amendments 104 and 111.
My support for amendments 104 and 111 is prompted by the continuing run-down of office, engineering and laboratory installation facilities in Dumfries that David Mundell highlighted. However, the same thing is clearly happening elsewhere in the country, and we have no indication that such a tendency will not accelerate. As David said, such jobs are relatively high-paid in Dumfries and Galloway and are therefore of great value to the economy. More important, the local knowledge of the engineers and others who work in those areas is valuable and ensures a quicker and more accurate response for customers. Stories are legion of people who have come in from outside the area to work for West of Scotland Water and have spent the first couple of hours on site working out where the pipes are, because the local knowledge has not been available.
I realise that not every area in the country can have a local office for every public operation. However, as far as Dumfries and Galloway is concerned, we are talking about changing the current situation. We will remove the current structure without giving back any countervailing advantages, unless we include the dubious one of hugely increased water charges. Furthermore, this is happening against the background of a centralising tendency in, for example, the awarding of contracts. More and more contracts for the water authorities are being awarded centrally by competitive tender, which means that small local contractors are being squeezed out. As a result, we are suffering a double blow: we lose the direct jobs in the local offices and the indirect jobs from the contracts that used to go to small local contractors.
As I said earlier, we have the ludicrous situation of a minister who has at least two hats. He is supposed to be responsible both for co-ordinating and promoting rural development, and for water. However, if the minister cannot even co-ordinate rural development in water, a subject over which he has direct control, what hope do we have that rural development will be co-ordinated in other areas? I said to Alex Fergusson that it might be interesting to ask when the cross-cutting ministerial group on rural development last met. I would be interested to hear the answer to that question, and whether the group has ever discussed the water industry in relation to rural development.
My colleague Tavish Scott referred to concerns about the micromanagement of Scottish Water. Although I certainly do not believe that that should happen, I agree with him and Donald Gorrie that Scottish Water should have a decentralised structure and be accessible to people. That is why I am delighted not just that the organisation's new headquarters will be in Dunfermline, but that no more than 50 to 60 people will work there. The situation is inconsistent at the moment. East of Scotland Water has four local offices; North of Scotland Water has 13; and West of Scotland Water has eight. I am not saying that there should be rationalisation; obviously, the remoter parts of the country, particularly the northern isles, Orkney and Shetland, must be looked after. However, Scottish Water should establish a consistent policy on local offices.
We have to resolve two separate issues in order to square this particular circle. My problem with amendments 104 and 111 is that we are in danger of—to use Keith Raffan's phrase—micromanaging Scottish Water. We must strike a balance between ensuring that the organisation has proper commercial freedom and ensuring that the bill provides a structure for the new organisation that addresses the points that David Mundell and Tavish Scott raised concerning the deficiencies of the current structure.
In response to Alasdair Morgan, one of the general duties of Scottish Water is that it must have due regard to the interests of its customers or potential customers. That relates to the points made by Tavish Scott. Those who are ordinarily resident in rural or remote parts of Scotland will be particularly drawn to the attention of Scottish Water.
It is important to consider the role of the consultation panels and the access that local residents have to those panels. There will be five panels, including, in particular, one for Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles. Amendment 24, which was agreed to earlier, proposes a consultation code for Scottish Water. That imposes on Scottish Water a duty to consult people on its key activities and core functions. Scottish Water must not only say whether it will save money, but amendment 28, to which we have just agreed, places a duty on it to demonstrate that it is operating "economically, efficiently and effectively." That goes a long way to meeting the concerns raised by members.
The panels that we are putting in place will be able to take up far broader issues. The bill imposes statutory undertakings that are not present in the current legislative arrangements. The consultation code, and the fact that Scottish Water must operate economically, efficiently and effectively, gives the local consultation panels clear statutory grounds. Never mind whether they have a view—they might or might not—they know the tests that Scottish Water must meet and they are able to apply those tests in bringing matters properly to the attention of the commissioner.
The bill also provides that the commissioner must have regard to the panels and Scottish Water must have regard to matters raised by the commissioner. I say to David Mundell and Tavish Scott that there are mechanisms in the bill that meet their understandable concerns, and those of other members, including Alasdair Morgan and Donald Gorrie. There are measures in the bill that would prevent Scottish Water from acting in a way that was detrimental to those in remote and rural communities and to customers as a whole. I therefore invite Parliament to resist the amendments and to consider carefully what is already in the bill. I hope that that will provide a suitable remedy to the real concerns that members have raised.
I invite David Mundell to sum up and to indicate whether he will press or withdraw his amendment.
I will press the amendment, because I am not reassured by what the minister has said. We have invariably received reassurances on this matter, but what the employees of West of Scotland Water in Dumfries have received is 90-day notices that their jobs are being moved from Dumfries to elsewhere. While I accept that the consumer panels have an important role, they will not be engaged in determining where services are located. Indeed, the water commissioner himself presents exactly the same argument as the minister, which is that it is not for him to micromanage the industry. Therefore, although he will say that companies in England that spread their work force throughout their locality are the most efficient and effective companies, he does not have the capacity to tell Scottish Water that that is what it should do.
The Scottish Executive has set clear policy guidelines and ministers repeatedly answer questions by saying that it is Scottish Executive policy for jobs to be dispersed throughout Scotland. However, when it comes to the bit, the Executive is not prepared to go the extra step and deliver on that commitment. The minister in particular, with responsibility for rural Scotland, should understand that the Executive is not just an outside intervener in rural areas, but an important economic agent in itself. If he fails to locate agencies such as Scottish Water in rural Scotland he is missing a development opportunity and creating greater difficulties for himself.
The question is, that amendment 104 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 64, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 104 disagreed to.
Section 50—Information and reports
Amendment 33 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
After section 55
Amendment 34, in the name of the Minister for Environment and Rural Development, is grouped with amendments 72, 73, 80 and 82.
In the past, the water authorities have from time to time encountered difficulties in requiring the owners of business premises served by the same service pipe as residential customers to install the necessary pipework to enable a meter to be fitted to those premises, while maintaining an unmetered supply for residential customers. A common scenario might be a restaurant situated in a block of flats or tenement building. Amendment 34 addresses that by enabling Scottish Water to require works associated with metering, such as the provision of a new service pipe and alterations to internal pipework, to be undertaken.
Amendments 72, 73, 80 and 82 are consequential on amendment 34. The purpose of amendment 34 is to deal with those loopholes. It will not result in the metering of water used for domestic purposes in the same or adjoining premises. That will continue to be charged for separately. It will make no change to the existing circumstances, which are that domestic customers can request a meter, but that the water authority cannot impose one upon them.
I move amendment 34.
Most of the amendments that we are dealing with today have been discussed before, have been promised by the Executive, were signalled earlier or are of a technical nature. That is not the case with amendment 34. It is potentially far reaching and controversial. Amendment 34 is closely associated with an amendment introduced by the Executive at stage 2. It is clearly identified in schedule 6 of the bill, as amended at stage 2. When the amendment at stage 2 was moved by Allan Wilson, Fiona McLeod questioned him about whether the power was taken to install meters in domestic or non-domestic premises. He said:
"I asked precisely the same point in relation to this proposition. The problem only arises in a small minority of instances. It is best described as the Chinese restaurant syndrome".—[Official Report, Transport and the Environment Committee, 30 January 2002; c 2677.]
Amendment 34, combined with the Executive's stage 2 amendment, provides the minister and Scottish Water with concerning and far-reaching new powers. The effect will be, first, to give the ministers power to amend section 50 of the Water (Scotland) Act 1980, which describes what are to be regarded as domestic and non-domestic premises. Yet close examination of that section shows that Scottish Water is already provided with adequate powers. It states:
"A water authority shall not be bound to supply with water otherwise than by meter—
(a) any premises whereof part is used as a dwelling house and part for any business, trade or manufacturing purpose for which water is required".
Secondly, Scottish Water will be able to install a meter in any premises if it is given the power to do so by Scottish ministers. It will then be able to charge the lucky recipient for the privilege of installation. In short, amendment 34 will give Scottish ministers the power, by subordinate legislation, to allow Scottish Water to install meters in domestic premises and recover the cost from the householders.
Although we intend to vote against amendment 34 whatever happens, we need a cast-iron guarantee from the minister that there will never be a proposal to install meters in domestic premises, even though the Executive is giving itself the power to do that by subordinate legislation.
The power to supply water by meter is given in section 50 of the Water (Scotland) Act 1980. Let me make it clear that there is absolutely no intention by the ministers or Scottish Water to force anyone on to a meter for a domestic supply. If it had such an intention—which it does not—Scottish Water could be stopped by ministers from imposing meters through a direction under section 49 of the bill. That clarifies the point. However, I suspect that the nationalists will vote against the amendment anyway, as they never listen to the points that are made.
The question is, that amendment 34 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 80, Against 31, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 34 agreed to.
Amendment 35 is grouped with amendment 75.
The purpose of amendment 35 is to give Scottish Water adequate power to enforce water byelaws. The amendment was prompted by a particular concern about enforcing byelaws on the use of lead solder in plumbing. The bill provides an opportunity to give Scottish Water sufficient powers in that regard.
First, amendment 35 will provide for an increased maximum penalty for the contravention of the byelaws. That will be an important signal to those who believe that they can flout byelaws, such as those on the use of lead solder, which are designed to protect public health. Secondly, if the byelaws are contravened, amendment 35 will provide for proceedings to be initiated within six months from when Scottish Water or the procurator fiscal became aware of evidence of the offence.
That change is intended to address the current situation in which prosecution is possible only within six months of the offence being committed. When lead solder has been used illegally in new premises, the water authority often does not discover that fact within six months, which means that the offence cannot be referred to the procurator fiscal. Amendment 35 will make an important improvement to the enforcement arrangements. I ask members to agree amendment 35.
Amendment 75 is a minor, tidying-up amendment that replaces references to local authorities in the 1980 act with references to "Scottish Water."
I move amendment 35.
Amendment 35 agreed to.
Schedule 1
Water Industry Commissioner and Customer Panels: further provision
Amendment 92 is grouped with amendments 106, 107, 36, 93, 108 and 95. If amendment 106 is agreed to, amendments 107, 36 and 93 are pre-empted. If amendment 107 is agreed to, amendments 36 and 93 are pre-empted.
I would like Adam Ingram to move amendment 92 for me.
That is somewhat irregular, but I invite Adam Ingram to do so briefly.
In moving amendment 92, we want to enhance the independence of the water industry commissioner, who is charged with promoting customers' interests. We do not want the commissioner to be a creature of ministers who, in the final analysis, are primarily responsible and publicly accountable for Scottish Water, which is the provider of the services. It is clear that Parliament is best placed to represent customers' interests and therefore Parliament should be in control of the appointment process.
On amendment 95 and the appointment of non-executive board members, Parliament should be satisfied that such individuals are appointed on merit and not because they are members of the Labour party. All amendments in this group improve the bill's system of checks and balances, particularly in relation to democratic scrutiny, and should be supported.
I move amendment 92
I speak on amendment 106, principally in relation to proposed new paragraph 5(2), which refers to the nominating bodies for a customer panel. I welcome the minister's earlier remarks about the geographic structure of those panels. However, I look for ministerial guidance on whether two particular groups will be represented on customer panels and on how best to represent them.
The first group is local authorities and my point is related to Dennis Canavan's earlier remarks on another amendment. When I was a councillor in Shetland in the mid-1990s, the Conservatives removed water and waste-water services from local authority control. There was no overriding case for doing so in the geographic circumstances in which I was then involved. Strategic planning, housing and economic development factors solidly come together under the ambit of local government. I believe that strategic guidance, the principle of community planning and community planning initiatives are best brought together under local government. Water and waste-water services are an essential development part of those elements. Therefore, local authorities should be part of the customer panels.
The second group is non-domestic users of water and waste-water services. I am thinking in particular of fish-processing businesses in my constituency and other areas, such as north-east Scotland, which pay huge amounts of money to water companies and need to be represented on the customer panels to drive forward the efficiencies that the bill aims to achieve. Amendment 106 would recognise those two groups.
Amendment 107 seeks to appoint different conveners to each of the five water customer consultation panels. I believe that this is necessary because one man would find it difficult to serve on and convene five committees, as proposed.
One person, surely.
One person, indeed. I thank the minister for his guidance.
Further, a local convener would better understand local issues and be better able to report on them to the commissioner and, if need be, Scottish ministers. To allow the panels to function properly, as we all want them to do, we must have a convener for each panel, whether that convener be a man or a woman.
Amendment 36 is, I hope, fairly self-explanatory.
Amendments 92, 93 and 95 deal with the appointment of the water industry commissioner, conveners and non-executive directors. We have rehearsed that debate in detail in recent weeks and in the chamber. The SNP has made it clear where it stands on this matter.
I should make clear to the Parliament that each of those three appointments will be conducted under the Nolan principles. Therefore, the procedures that the Parliament agreed will apply to the appointments. I point out that the Scottish Executive will be consulting on improving the way in which persons are appointed under the Nolan procedures. The question of the independence of those appointments should not arise—Mr Ingram's nonsensical comment about political appointments simply does not apply. The three appointments will be made under the Nolan principles and the Parliament should be clear about that when it considers rejecting those appointments.
Tavish Scott and John Scott talked about the membership of the customer panels. We must consider what we are trying to create. We are trying to give the water industry commissioner a status that no one has had in the past. We are trying to create someone who has an overview of customer complaints across Scotland. It is important that that individual is not just made aware of the complaints but is actively involved in dealing with them. In that way, he can draw both bad and—which is important—good practice to the attention of Scottish Water. Because of the status that we wish to afford the commissioner, the bill provides that, through the commissioner's offices, reasonable costs and expenses will be paid to that individual. That elevates dramatically the importance of the commissioner.
Tavish Scott raised two specific points. The directions that we will give on the nature of persons who will be appointed will make two quite clear points. One is that there must be regard to business interests. That is imperative as we cannot have customer panels that take account only of domestic customers. The panels must also take into account the interests of small businesses, which Tavish Scott asked about.
The other element is to ensure that the balance of the membership is such that the concerns of local people can be clearly articulated. Members of local authorities will not be barred from being considered for that purpose. The only point that I will stress is that they would not be on the panel to ensure democratic accountability. The democratic accountability of Scottish Water is to the Parliament. If it were felt that the local councillor was, in the circumstances, best placed to be on the panel, that would be entirely appropriate.
I urge members to support amendment 36 and to reject the other amendments in the group.
I require someone to speak to amendment 93. Will Fiona McLeod do it?
I will speak to amendment 93 and to the generalities of all the amendments. I apologise for any confusion earlier, Presiding Officer.
Those amendments are intended to ensure that the appointments of the water industry commissioner, the convener of the water customer consultation panels and members of the board of Scottish Water, which are powerful positions in the Scottish water industry, have parliamentary approval. I thought that every member would want that.
I will talk about the role of the convener of the customer consultation panels—or conveners, if amendments 106 and 107 from the Scott twins are agreed to, of which I would approve. The convener of those panels will be the voice and face of millions of customers. They cannot be a ministerial placeman or placewoman and they cannot be a ministerial mouthpiece. We know from last week's revelations that we still have no independent scrutiny of ministerial appointments. Only parliamentary approval of such pivotal appointments will lift them above political interference.
I ask all members to vote for amendments 92, 93 and 95.
We should be clear that the amendments that the SNP has lodged are all amendments that the Transport and the Environment Committee has rejected roundly. We should also be clear that the proposals that the SNP puts forward are the same as those that were rejected in the defeat last week of Mr Neil's member's bill, the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) (Scotland) Bill.
It is unfortunate that the SNP is trying to turn the debate on the Water Industry (Scotland) Bill into yet another opportunity to attack and degrade people who stand for public appointments.
I have only two minutes; Mr Neil had plenty of time last week. I ask him to sit down.
The position that Fiona McLeod and Adam Ingram have expressed is a disgraceful attack on the integrity of those who stand for public appointments. It is also a disgraceful attack on the integrity of ministers. Fiona McLeod and Adam Ingram do not want to depoliticise the appointments process; they want to politicise it so that they can attack people who come into public life. Amendments 92, 93 and 95 should therefore be rejected.
Bristow Muldoon's remarks have made it clear that the debate will go on and on. It is about parliamentary approval of pivotal appointments in public life in Scotland. The evidence that we received last week during the debate on the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) (Scotland) Bill was that the Labour and Liberal Democrat Executive has still not worked out a mechanism that will ensure that such pivotal appointments are above political interference. Only parliamentary approval, such as the Liberal Democrats tell us in their manifesto that they want, but which they give up in the Executive, will ensure that the appointments are above the political process.
The question is, that amendment 92 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Abstentions
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 62, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 92 disagreed to.
Amendment 106 not moved.
Amendment 107 moved—[John Scott].
The question is, that amendment 107 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 107 disagreed to.
Amendment 36 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 93 moved—[Fiona McLeod].
The question is, that amendment 93 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
Against
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 45, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 93 disagreed to.
Amendment 108 not moved.
I propose to suspend consideration of amendments at this stage. The remaining three groupings will be debated in the afternoon.