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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, September 29, 2011


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S4F-00164)

I have a range of engagements that will carry forward the Government’s programme for Scotland.

Iain Gray

How disappointingly mundane. On Tuesday, the First Minister told a conference that he was leading the greatest step forward for civilisation since the hunter-gatherers put down roots 10,000 years ago. I thought that, this afternoon, he might at least be ushering in an epoch of world peace or perhaps personally parting the North Sea for the interconnector to Norway. Perhaps he could just try to keep his promise to protect the national health service budget in real terms. Why is he cutting Scotland’s NHS budget by £300 million?

The First Minister

The budget to health boards—the revenue budget of the NHS—has been protected in real terms by the Government. Of course, that is unlike what would have happened if the great misfortune had occurred—which would almost be approximate to parting the North Sea and just about as likely, incidentally—and the Labour Party had come to office. I know that Iain Gray has spent a lot of time this week reprising the election campaign and I do not want to add to his agony, but does he not remember saying on “Newsnight Scotland” a year ago:

“We wouldn’t ring fence the health budget”?

We know that Labour did not mean to pass on the consequentials because the Labour Party in government in Wales has not passed on the consequentials to the health service. One thing of which we can be absolutely certain is that, if that great North Sea misfortune had befallen the people of Scotland and Iain Gray had triumphantly led the Labour Party into government, less money would have been spent on the national health service than will be spent in this spending review period.

Iain Gray

See what the First Minister did there? I asked him a question about NHS budgets and he gave me an answer about Labour’s manifesto, the Welsh Labour Party and NHS board budgets. That was not the promise that he made. He promised that a Scottish National Party Government would protect the health budget, but it has not done that. Since the First Minister was re-elected in May, we have had fewer doctors, midwives and nurses. He has got rid of 1,700 nurses since 2009. Does he still have the brass neck to say that he is protecting our NHS?

The First Minister

All the commitments that we made to the national health service are being met, and we will protect the NHS budget. Table 7.02 on page 64 of the “Scottish Spending Review 2011 and Draft Budget 2012-13” shows how the NHS budget is being protected. We pledged to pass on the consequentials, which Iain Gray would not commit to do during the election campaign. We have done that; he will find that on page 58 of that document. We promised to protect the national health service and ensure shorter waiting times and treatment that continues to improve. That means extra investment of £1 billion over the next four years. He will see that in table 8.03 of the document. The SNP Government has met—indeed, more than met—each and every commitment that we gave the national health service.

I know that it is a long time ago, but Iain Gray should remember that, when he was the deputy health minister at a time when there was not a Tory Government imposing massive cuts from Westminster, nursing numbers in Scotland—guess what?—fell during his period of office, and there were 5,000 fewer nurses in the national health service than there are now under this Government.

Iain Gray

Table 1.06 in a financial scrutiny unit document on the draft budget shows that the change over four years in the total health spend is -£319 million. That is a cut. If the First Minister cared to examine nurse and midwife numbers, he would find that there are fewer nurses and midwives in our NHS now than there were in 2007 when he became First Minister. However, members do not have to take my word for it; let us ask the people who really know. The Royal College of Nursing states:

“Our nursing workforce is at breaking point”.

General practitioners tell us that “panic measures” to compensate for SNP cuts will compromise the NHS. Who should we trust on the NHS: the First Minister, who made the choices in his budget, or the doctors, nurses and patients, who have no choice except to live with the consequences? Who is telling the truth: Alex Salmond or the doctors and nurses?

The First Minister

In May, people had the opportunity to judge between Alex Salmond and Iain Gray and, fairly resoundingly, they decided on the Scottish National Party Administration. I named the three key tables in the spending plans, but Iain Gray chose not to reference them; instead, he glided across to the budget including capital spending, presumably oblivious to the fact that the Conservative Party is cutting capital spending in Scotland by 36 per cent over a four-year period. That is the dreadful Conservative Party, but it adopted the plans that were left to it by the Labour Administration.

What did we do to try to counter that? Did we say, as Iain Gray did last year, that we would not even pass on the consequentials? No; the Government, through the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth and the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy, introduced a non-profit distribution programme that will add £750 million to expenditure in the national health service in the next few years.

I have quoted the three tables, cited Iain Gray’s deplorable record and explained how we are getting another £750 million investment in the national health service. Perhaps Iain Gray will have the grace to acknowledge that, if he comes along to ask questions on the NHS, neither on his record, performance nor understanding of statistics is he on safe ground.

Iain Gray

No matter where the First Minister goes in his budget, it unravels. Last week, he promised that the Government would invest in capital infrastructure. Then the Centre for Public Policy for Regions examined the figures and we discovered that the Government is cutting capital investment even faster than George Osborne and the Tories are. The First Minister promised to protect businesses, but then we discovered that he is taking an extra £850 million off them. Last Thursday, he promised to protect universities, but on Friday he gave the University of Abertay Dundee five weeks to merge into the University of Dundee. To paraphrase Al Gore, is not the truth just an inconvenience for the First Minister?

The First Minister

Last week, I wondered why Iain Gray kept asking about closures, since there will be no closures of colleges or universities in Scotland. Then, as Mike Russell mentioned in the education debate earlier, we found out that one of Ed Miliband’s advisers is advocating the closure of half of England’s universities. It is no wonder that Iain Gray was obsessed by closure.

I turn to the figures that were produced on capital departmental expenditure limits by the CPPR, an institute that seems to engage in treble counting. The last time that we had treble counting in the United Kingdom was when Gordon Brown was the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1997 to 1999; coincidentally, that was exactly the same period in which John McLaren was a Labour Party special adviser. It seems that old habits die hard.

The capital DEL is only part of the capital spending story. It is because of the near 40 per cent cut that the Tories introduced, and which was planned by the Labour Party, that Mr Swinney has engaged in the non-profit distribution programme and the transfer from resource to capital in the budget. That is why the capital budget is increasing in Scotland, which is the only place in the United Kingdom where it is increasing. I heard that same mistake repeated by Ed Miliband on the radio this morning. I can only imagine that he got his information from Iain Gray. As that interview wended on, as the BBC news site tells us, Ed Miliband was unable to name all the Scottish Labour leadership candidates. He got two out of three, which is two more than the rest of the population.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S4F-00153)

A meeting with the Prime Minister is not planned in the near future, but no doubt we will get round to it.

Annabel Goldie

The First Minister knows that I share his serious concern about sectarian behaviour in Scotland. Indeed, I have already raised the issue with him twice this year at First Minister’s question time. I do not doubt his commitment to tackling it.

However, the First Minister will be aware of growing concern about his proposed legislation. We know that the consultation period has highlighted evidence that existing law, if it was enforced more robustly, may be adequate and that new law may not be required. In recent days, we have had impressive evidence of existing law being used to good effect. What does the First Minister consider is not covered by the existing law?

The First Minister

As I am sure that Annabel Goldie knows, the Lord Advocate explained that in full detail to the Justice Committee, which is studying the proposed legislation. All members should look at that evidence from the Lord Advocate because he went through, in precise detail, a number of cases in which behaviour that most reasonable people would consider to be an offence had not been covered by the breach of the peace legislation. He gave the example of racist offences. Some courts have decided that breach of the peace must be seen in the context of the effect on others in the situation. Someone could make remarks that are totally unacceptable but which, in the context of their effect on others, are not covered by the breach of the peace legislation. The Lord Advocate spent a great deal of time explaining to the committee why that is a deficiency in the current range of legislation. I hope that Annabel Goldie and the rest of the chamber will look at that evidence.

If we see gaps in the current legislation, given Annabel Goldie’s clarion call for action earlier this year, it is our public duty to ensure that our police, our prosecution service and our Crown Office are equipped with the range of legislative instruments that they believe they require to face down and tackle evils in society. Sectarianism and sectarian displays are unacceptable across Scottish society, and they should not be allowed to attach themselves to our beautiful game of football.

Annabel Goldie

The First Minister and I know that all of us in the chamber are united in condemning sectarian behaviour wherever it occurs. That is precisely why we must not do a disservice to the public by making bad law just for the sake of making law.

Will the First Minister confirm that he will keep an open mind on legislating and that he will be swayed by the evidence that is presented to the Parliament rather than by an understandable, but perhaps misplaced, desire to create new law just because he can?

The First Minister

I recommend that Annabel Goldie read the explanation that the Lord Advocate gave the Justice Committee on 22 June 2011. It is a detailed explanation. When I read it, I thought that it made the case for legislative change beyond any peradventure. I am not certain whether Annabel Goldie has had the opportunity to study it in careful detail, but I commend it to her and, indeed, to the rest of the chamber. It is an excellent exposition of the gaps that exist in the breach of the peace legislation and why, over time, the interpretation of breach of the peace has changed and left those gaps. I am sure that when Annabel Goldie reads that explanation, she will understand that, if we are to act decisively, we must ensure that we give the people who are charged with enforcing our law—the police and others—the tools that they require to do the job that we expect them to do.

Lastly, I would like to say something else about the issue that will be important. As a Parliament, we must be able to get into a state of thinking in which we recognise that there are some things that we must tackle jointly as a society. Earlier this year, Annabel Goldie and others said that they wished to have more time to consider the proposed legislation. I gladly agreed to that, not because I did not think that our bill would get majority support, but because I wanted to take the entire chamber with us. We have to take the entire Parliament with us, but that is the responsibility of Opposition as well as Government. The Opposition parties must rise above the quick trick and the point that is easy to make, and must acknowledge the statements that the Lord Advocate made.

Unless we face down what has happened in and around our football grounds and have the courage and integrity to tackle it as a Parliament, we will not have a football game left in Scotland. The European authorities find what they have seen in Scotland unacceptable, and they would take action. Surely, as a Parliament, we can find it in ourselves—as we should as a society—to face down sectarianism and give the police, and those who are responsible for the law, the instruments that they have asked us for so that they can do the job that we expect them to do.

Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)

The First Minister will appreciate the public concern about yesterday’s appeal court decision on Robert Foye’s conviction for a heinous crime that was committed in my constituency. What assurances can the First Minister provide for my constituents and the general public throughout Scotland that a mechanism is built into the justice system to ensure that, if Robert Foye is still regarded as a danger to the public, he will spend the entirety of his sentence behind bars?

The First Minister

I can give two reassurances. First, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will introduce the required and considered changes in the legal framework for which Lord Hamilton called at the time of the initial judgment in March. They will enable us to close what seems to be a complex but nonetheless distinct loophole in the law.

Secondly, on how the punishment and other parts of sentences are imposed, no one has been released in Scotland over the past few years unless and until they were judged no longer to be a danger to the public.

We recognise the gap in the law and are grateful for the support that Victim Support Scotland expressed today for the actions that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice is taking. Before the year is out, the Parliament will have the opportunity to consider the changes in the law that are necessary fully to protect Scottish society.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S4F-00162)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss matters of importance to the people of Scotland.

Willie Rennie

This morning, I met the latest recruit to the Liberal Democrats: Councillor Mike Dillon from Paisley who, after a brief flirtation with the Scottish National Party, has returned to the Liberal fold. That is good news. However, it is not such good news that there are an estimated 830,000 victims of crime in Scotland every year. What will the Scottish Government do to support victims?

The First Minister

Let us start with the real issue first: the victims of crime. I am sure that Willie Rennie acknowledges that crime in Scotland is now at a 33-year low. That is the result of many of the policies that this Government has advanced, in particular the policy of putting 1,000 extra police officers on Scotland’s streets and in its communities. That policy was widely supported in the Parliament, although the Liberal Democrats were not among the advocates for it.

The people of Scotland have the security that crime has been driven to a 33-year low.

On Councillor Dillon, I will quote what he said on 3 July:

“Members and supporters of the LibDems do not understand why their party leadership in Scotland have become the cheerleaders to Tory policy and Tory beliefs ... Michael Moore and Willie Rennie sound more Tory than the Tories, and enough is enough.”

I say to the First Minister that Mike Dillon is back with us. [Interruption.]

Order.

Willie Rennie

The serious issue is that the First Minister has relegated his victims’ rights bill out of this year’s legislative programme. Will he agree to change his mind and introduce it this year?

Will the First Minister also increase the amount of work and training that takes place in prisons and start to use some of the proceeds from prisoners’ earnings to help victims? Steps are being taken elsewhere in the UK to help to make that happen. Would not such a move assure crime victims that their interests are being taken seriously?

The First Minister

Victim Support Scotland is working closely with the Government on a range of issues. If Willie Rennie has specific proposals such as the one that he has just mentioned, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will certainly consider them. That, indeed, is a serious issue.

He will come to regard it as a mistake, but Willie Rennie has chosen to develop that serious issue alongside Councillor Dillon’s incredible endorsement of the Liberal Democrats. Given what he has said, if Willie Rennie thinks that Councillor Dillon is one of his foremost supporters, I can only think that there might soon be another candidate for the leadership of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland.


Crown Estate (Minerals)



4. To ask the First Minister what recent discussions the Scottish Government has had with the Crown Estate regarding the ownership and benefits that might flow from minerals mined in Scotland. (S4F-00157)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Whether it is mineral wealth, the value of a shoreline or the opportunities that are offered by renewables, Scotland’s future economic growth and the strength of our communities rest on having control of our assets. For that reason, the Government has long argued for control of the Crown estates to return democratically to Scotland. The current Scotland Bill provides an excellent opportunity to do that and, given that the Parliament supported the proposal by a large majority, I hope that the Secretary of State for Scotland might consider that proposals that were resoundingly endorsed by Scotland’s communities in the election and by a clear parliamentary majority should be included in the Scotland Bill.

Chic Brodie

The time is right for the archaic legislation governing the Crown estate to be brought into line with the realities of devolution in a modern Scotland, to make it accountable to the Scottish Parliament and people, and to deliver direct benefits to our communities. Will the First Minister continue to make the case to the United Kingdom Government that the Crown estate should be devolved to Parliament as soon as possible?

The First Minister

I met the chief executive of the Crown Estate and the Scottish commissioner last week. On 22 June, we submitted a detailed paper to the UK Government that set out the case for change. The Crown estate in Scotland should be administered in Scotland and accountable to the Scottish Parliament. The revenue should directly benefit Scotland and its communities. In the year to March 2011, the Crown Estate generated a surplus £9.9 million. Those resources were raised in Scotland and the Scottish Government ought to be able to democratically direct them to the benefit of Scotland and its coastal communities.

That democratic process of accountability would be somewhat better than having some sort of lottery, which was the most recent extraordinary proposal from the UK Government, and which has been roundly criticised by our coastal communities.


Nurses

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)



5. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s position is on reported concerns by the Royal College of Nursing that nurses are at breaking point due to fears over workloads, job security and falling care standards. (S4F-00165)

We are maintaining our policy of no compulsory redundancies to increase job and economic security, and we are passing the health Barnett consequentials of £1.106 billion in full to NHS Scotland.

Jackie Baillie

There is no doubt that nurses’ morale is plummeting. They are desperately worried about falling care standards and they are uncertain about the future. As the SNP and the First Minister are fond of reminding us, they promised to protect all the health budget, not just health boards or part of the budget, and yet there has been a real-terms reduction of £320 million of revenue alone. That is a fact.

Will the First Minister give me a simple answer? If the SNP is protecting the NHS, why this year are there fewer doctors and consultants, fewer allied health professionals, and fewer nurses and midwives in the NHS than there have been at any point since 2005?

The First Minister

More people are working in the health service in Scotland now than there were in 2007.

No one would argue that the NHS is not under the same budgetary pressure as every other public service in Scotland. That budgetary pressure comes from the cut to Scotland from the UK Government. Incidentally, that cut was not just the work of the Conservative Party; two thirds of it was planned by the Labour Party.

The person who was the Labour chancellor at the time now tells us that he wanted to go further than the cuts that he described at the time as being further and deeper than those of Margaret Thatcher. Given that we know that the Labour Party would not have protected the national health service as this Government has protected it, how on earth can Jackie Baillie—or any other leadership candidate known or unknown to Ed Miliband—come to this chamber and claim that they have any credibility regarding a service that they refused even to protect with the Barnett consequentials?

Just last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth announced that our no compulsory redundancy policy, which is unique across these islands, is to be extended for a further year precisely to address the question of job security.

Apart from our workers in the health service, who do excellent, fantastic work, there is another category of people whom we should consider: the patients, and what they feel about the NHS. The most recent survey in August found that 86.4 per cent of the people of Scotland were very or fairly satisfied with the national health service in 2010; that was up from 81 per cent in 2007. So, it is not just that members should recognise the work of our national health service; we should also be aware that the people of Scotland recognise and support the excellent work that it does.


University Mergers



6. To ask the First Minister who has responsibility for decisions regarding university mergers. (S4F-00166)

The Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council is the body responsible and it can make proposals, but ultimately it is for the universities themselves to decide.

Liz Smith

On Tuesday, Lord Sutherland described the consultation process regarding the possible merger between the University of Abertay Dundee and the University of Dundee as a “merger by fax”. Does the First Minister believe that it is acceptable for those universities to have just six weeks to respond to the Scottish funding council’s request that a possible merger be considered?

The First Minister

The Scottish funding council makes proposals, but just as there will be no closure of any college or university in Scotland, there will be no forced merger of any institution either, which contrasts with the situation elsewhere. The Scottish funding council is entitled to make proposals and it was entitled to do so in the case in question because—as Liz Smith should be well aware—there were concerns about governance issues that involved the suspension and then retiral of the then principal of the University of Abertay. There were also concerns about the costs that such matters may well have to the public purse—the Scottish funding council, of course, supplies the bulk of the funds in that regard.

We as a Government are not going to force any merger between unwilling parties, and it is not for me to advise university courts. However, perhaps in the current circumstances—of excellent university funding, incidentally; I am glad that Liz Smith by her silence seems to recognise that— [Interruption.] I merely say that Liz Smith has told us for over a year that the funding settlement for Scottish universities would not be adequate, but now that every university thinks that it is superb she says nothing about it.

Universities could do a lot worse than to look to the city of Aberdeen, where there will be a meeting tomorrow between the principals of Robert Gordon University and the University of Aberdeen. They will look again at how the further sharing of facilities in that great city can enable those two distinct, independent institutions to gain economies, increase the services that are available to their students and run their universities in an even more efficient manner. It seems to me that there might be a light in the north that many institutions could have a look at.

Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)

Lord Sutherland also said that he could not imagine a worse way of undertaking a merger. Does the First Minister agree with him that the message of the experience of the University of Abertay Dundee and the University of Dundee will send a chill down the spines of colleges and universities across Scotland?

The First Minister

Perhaps the member should catch up with the consequences of the agreed merger between the three Glasgow colleges. I do not know whether he has seen the evidence this week and the strong endorsement of the impact of that merger. I note that there was a saving of £4 million in financial efficiencies from a measure that has established a great new college in the city of Glasgow. Incidentally, there were 69 mergers of colleges in the period of the previous Labour Government in England. Let us not have the idea that a merger between institutions is anything new, or other than something that could benefit the institutions themselves.

Let me repeat that as far as this Government is concerned, there will be no closure of any college or any university in Scotland over the period of this Government and there will be no forced merger either. However, our education configuration in Scotland is not set in stone. As has been demonstrated by the three colleges in Glasgow, there can be occasions when a great deal can be gained, both for the colleges and for the public purse, in having a merger that achieves such an excellent result as that.

Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)

In light of the First Minister’s answer to Liz Smith that there will be no forced mergers between institutions, will he confirm that the merger talks between the University of Dundee and the University of Abertay Dundee will come to a halt at the end of October as the Scottish funding council set out in its letter?

The First Minister

It is for the universities to respond to the Scottish funding council’s proposals—and I am sure that they will. I will give the member a serious answer, given that last week she was able to ask a serious question, unlike her party leader, who was talking about closures.

You just can’t help yourself, can you?

The First Minister

I think that most people who were here last week would say that what I just said was a reasonable estimation of the position.

It is for the funding council to make proposals and it is for the university courts to respond to them. Given the circumstances of the past year or so affecting Abertay and its governance, it is entirely reasonable for the funding council to have concerns. That is reasonable, given that the amount of money that is devoted to these things can have severe implications for the amount of money that is available for staff and students.

I hope and believe that the response of both universities—and of Abertay university court—will be such that they will come back and demonstrate that they have a plan that will achieve proper efficiencies and value for the public purse in a way that they find compatible with their future.

Let me repeat that just as there will be no closures of institutions under this Government, there will be no forced mergers either.

Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Have you had time to reflect on the point of order that I raised with you two weeks ago in respect of the length of time that it takes the First Minister to answer questions? Can you update Parliament on your reflections?

The Presiding Officer

I say to the member and to the chamber that every member, with the exception of one, who wanted a supplementary question this week got one. I also ensured that question time ran on for just a bit extra because of the importance of the debate about the university sector. I am satisfied that all members are being fairly represented in the chamber, but I will continue to reflect on what the member says.

12:33 Meeting suspended.

14:15 On resuming—