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Chamber and committees

Plenary,

Meeting date: Thursday, May 29, 2008


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-817)

Later today, I will have meetings to take forward the Government's programme for Scotland.

Ms Alexander:

Yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning failed five times on radio to provide a cost for reducing class sizes to 18 in primary 1 to 3. Perhaps the First Minister can tell us. How much will it cost and when will it happen?

The First Minister:

Very fortunately, this Government has put substantial resources into local authorities and education above and beyond what the previous Administration planned. As Wendy Alexander well knows, page 5, paragraph 1 of the historic concordat with local government in Scotland makes it clear that

"Local government will be expected to show year on year progress toward delivery of the class size reduction policy."

That point, of course, was confirmed only yesterday by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities in evidence to a parliamentary committee.

Ms Alexander:

I am still looking for clarity on the timetable and the cost. In September, the First Minister was asked in the chamber to confirm that his class size pledge would be delivered in the lifetime of this parliamentary session. He replied, "Yes, I can"—no ifs, buts or qualifications: delivery by 2011. The price tag, according to the Scottish National Party manifesto, was to be £210 million. Yesterday, Scotland's education directors said that the cost would be £420 million—double the original SNP estimate. Are Scotland's education directors wrong?

The First Minister:

Scotland's education directors, like the rest of local government in Scotland, are now working for the first time in full co-operation with central Government through the concordat. Wendy Alexander should acknowledge that last year, even before the comprehensive spending review increased local government's share of spending over its course for the first time in a generation, extra resources were put into both capital building and teacher numbers in Scotland. [Interruption.]

Order. There is too much noise.

The First Minister:

I hope that Wendy Alexander will now concede that the concordat's intention to deliver this commitment is the way forward for class sizes in Scotland. Perhaps, even now, she will have the humility to accept that the Labour-Liberal Administration failed to deliver on every class size reduction target that it set in eight years.

Ms Alexander:

Last year, the First Minister was willing to provide both the timetable and the price tag for the class size promise. It is the First Minister's promise and the First Minister's responsibility. He really cannot hide behind the concordat, not least when COSLA, the SNP education convener of COSLA, Scotland's education directors and headteachers across the country all say that the money is not there. So let me try again: how much will it cost?

The First Minister:

Wendy Alexander publicly doubted whether class size reduction was an effective policy. I welcome her conversion to the SNP initiative on class size reduction. Page 5 of the concordat states that local government will show progress year on year—

Members:

Answer the question!

Order. I think that the First Minister knows what the question is.

The First Minister:

You must not stop me teasing them in full stream, Presiding Officer.

Local government will show year-on-year progress on the delivery of the class size reduction policy. The Labour members should listen to the dominie and start behaving like parliamentarians.

Ms Alexander:

The First Minister might know what the question is, but we have certainly not had an answer. Week in, week out, we get no straight answers. First Minister's question time has become entirely predictable. When it comes to respect for the Parliament, it is unacceptable that week in, week out, no figures are given.

Last week, I charged the SNP Government with legal incompetence and financial illiteracy, which is becoming the hallmark of the Government. The evidence keeps mounting. The Scottish futures trust was uncosted. The local income tax was uncosted. Dumping student debt was uncosted. The reduction in class size to 18 was uncosted. Every one of the SNP's flagship policies is foundering in a sea of financial incompetence.

In four weeks' time, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning will give evidence to the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee. Will the First Minister ensure that she finally produces an answer on the price tag on and timetable for implementation of his class size promise?

The First Minister:

I will tell Wendy Alexander what is costed: the £800 million a year that the people of Scotland will be paying for Labour's private finance initiative disasters. As she has raised the subject, last week, when I was giving her straight answers, she claimed that the non-profit-distributing model was a Labour invention—

Answer the question!

That is enough. We do not need any more sedentary interventions.

The First Minister:

I have a statement from Councillor David Alexander, the leader of Falkirk Council who pioneered the NPD model, who says:

"Falkirk Council, under the SNP, developed a model that was less costly to local taxpayers than the equivalent PFI model yet the Labour/Liberal Executive blocked this. Even when our amended delivery model did meet with reluctant acceptance from the previous Holyrood Administration we were faced with constant delays and indecision on the part of the then Labour/Liberal Executive."

Will Wendy Alexander accept that the model that is being brought forward to finance schools, hospitals and infrastructure in Scotland is not a Labour invention but a practical policy that was developed, pioneered and pursued by the SNP, with the support of the people of Scotland?


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-818)

I have no plans to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland in the near future.

Annabel Goldie:

The Scottish Government promised a lot during the past year and is faltering on a number of fronts, but I give credit where credit is due on one area: the Scottish Government's willingness to chart a new direction in the battle against drug abuse, which was evident in Fergus Ewing's statement to the Parliament this morning. I hope that much of the detail of that will be constructively debated next week.

Drug abuse in prisons is a serious aspect of the problem. This year, we are heading towards record finds of drugs in our jails, despite a plethora of protocols, guidelines and initiatives, which are simply not working. According to my information, by the end of the year, drug finds in jails could be up 20 per cent on last year. Does the First Minister agree that the problem is so serious that it is time to stop talking tough and start getting tough?

The First Minister:

A reason for the increased finds is perhaps that the matter is being approached rather differently from how it was approached in the past. However, I accept that drug abuse in prisons is a serious issue, which is requiring great attention from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and the Scottish Prison Service—hence the enforcement of matters that were perhaps not enforced to the same degree in the past. I do not deny for a second that there is a serious problem throughout the prison service.

I welcome not just Annabel Goldie's support but the broad support in the Parliament for the new direction in drugs policy in Scotland. A whole range of things is required if we as a country are to turn that tide. One of those is certainly for parliamentarians and political parties to rise above the usual smoke of battle and to address a huge underlying serious social problem that afflicts many and perhaps all western societies. We should do that as a united Parliament and get a response from a united people.

Annabel Goldie:

In our Scottish jails, the facts speak for themselves. Drug finds in prisons are soaring and yet, unbelievably, no record is kept of either the substances or the quantities that are found. How do we know what is going on? People outside are astonished at how drugs are circulating so freely in prisons, of all places. Surely the time has come not just to get prisoners clean in our prisons but to clean up our prisons. Why are our jails becoming the 21st century drug dens of Scotland? The Scottish Conservatives have published a raft of robust measures that are based on a zero tolerance approach to drugs in jails. Will the First Minister back them?

The First Minister:

I will be very happy for the Cabinet Secretary for Justice to examine Annabel Goldie's party's proposals in detail, to arrange a meeting to discuss them, and to compare them with the implementation strategy that is in place to see whether there are grounds and room for improvement.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-819)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Nicol Stephen:

Before the election, the First Minister talked to a newspaper about the new Forth crossing. He said:

"If we have a new bridge, a bond issue is definitely the way to do it … Because it's such an iconic project, that would have a wonderful take up and resonance not just in Scotland but worldwide."

Is that still his view? When does he expect the bonds to go on sale?

The First Minister:

As the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth has said a number of times in the chamber and elsewhere, we will specify the funding of the Forth bridge in this calendar year. For the Government to be in the position first to approve and then to specify the funding of that iconic project is a major advance on the previous Labour-Liberal Administration, which could not even decide whether to build the bridge in the first place.

Nicol Stephen:

The First Minister should not get his hopes up for the bonds, because his finance secretary has been telling everyone all week that bonds are not possible. The word "shambles" does not begin to capture the position. Before the election, the First Minister said that patriotic Scottish families would be able to buy resonant bridge bonds. Afterwards, his Government says that it is not legal to use bonds for nationally directed purposes. He has promised to build a £4 billion bridge, but his preferred finance plan has been ruled out by his finance secretary. What evidence can the First Minister give us today that his Government has the slightest idea how it is going to pay for the Forth bridge? Or is he scared to tell us, in case the next great kite that he flies is shot down by his finance secretary as well?

The First Minister:

The finance secretary is taking forward not just the financing of the Forth bridge but the £13,000 million of capital infrastructure projects that are laid out in the capital investment plan for Scotland. Perhaps, at some stage, the Liberal-Labour coalition will hark back to the previous eight years of delay, prevarication and total absence of a strategy for public capital investment.

I have been looking at some resolutions from the Liberal conference. They call for a moratorium on private finance initiatives, but Nicol Stephen sat in an Administration that paid through the nose for PFI hospital after PFI hospital. We will set out our financial plans for financing the Forth bridge in this calendar year. When we reach that stage, I hope that Nicol Stephen will support the plans and not just abstain as he did in the budget debate.

Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):

In light of yesterday's announcement regarding the ending of the Rosyth to Zeebrugge ferry service, what will the Government do to attract new operators to the route, and possibly to extend it? What measures will the Government take to support hauliers and holidaymakers who would have used the ferry service, and to encourage them to consider other forms of public transport rather than resorting to their cars?

The First Minister:

The Government has been in discussions with the Attica Group on the issue since January and I have made visits to its headquarters in Greece because we regard the matter as extremely serious. We believe that there is a commercial future for the ferry service, which is vital for Scotland. That view is shared by Forth Ports, which we have been helping in its discussions with other potential operators.

I point out to the constituency member and the chamber some of the factors that have led the company to take its decision, two of which are particular to the company. The first of those factors is the withdrawal of the previous type of ferry in 2006, as the current ferry does not have the same capacity for goods transport and uses more fuel. A second particular difficulty that the company faces is that, although its costs are in euros, its revenue is largely in sterling and the euro has appreciated substantially against sterling in recent years.

Other companies will not, perhaps, face those difficulties. However, the company faces one difficulty that every ferry operator faces right now, as do many businesses throughout the country, but particularly in the north of Scotland: the huge and rising cost of fuel. At some point, the whole chamber will have to recognise that, as industries and key services come under pressure, decisive action is needed to address the issue, which threatens the very industrial and infrastructural fabric of Scotland.

Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab):

The First Minister is aware of the efforts of the families of those who were killed and injured in the Stockline disaster to secure a public inquiry into the cause of the tragedy and the lessons to be learned from it.

Is the First Minister aware that, despite representations having been made to his office and a meeting having been held with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, the families have now been told that means testing will apply for those who want to be represented at the inquiry? Will he agree to look again at the joint ministerial determination that established the inquiry and ensure that those who are most affected by the tragedy can have equal access to representation, regardless of their means?

The First Minister:

Along with Patricia Ferguson and other members, I was extremely keen for the inquiry to be established, and that was achieved. We are also determined to ensure that the families get the appropriate costs and representation when the inquiry proceeds. I know that Patricia Ferguson has been engaged in meetings with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice on the matter. I would be delighted to have further meetings to progress matters. Anything that can be done within the framework of the law and procedure to effect that will be done.


Fuel Costs

To ask the First Minister what discussions Scottish ministers have had with Her Majesty's Government regarding the escalating cost of fuel. (S3F-835)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

Scottish ministers have on-going correspondence with the United Kingdom Government to highlight the effect that escalating fuel costs have on Scotland. We will continue to press the UK Government to take steps to mitigate the problems that are presented by rising fuel prices. I wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 10 March, asking him not to implement the planned increases in fuel duty and to consider introducing a fuel duty regulator. I am still awaiting a reply.

The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth has also written to the chancellor, before and after the budget, requesting that the UK Government take great consideration of the effect that changes in fuel duty have on rural communities and that it introduce a fuel price regulator to balance the impact of fuel duty and high fuel prices. The Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment and the Minister for Communities and Sport have written to and met their UK counterparts to highlight the impact that high fuel prices are having on both fuel poverty levels and the Scottish fishing industry.

Jamie Hepburn:

Does the First Minister agree that there is a bittersweet irony in the fact that Scottish families are struggling to pay utility bills and fill petrol tanks while Scotland cannot reap the benefits of increasing oil and gas revenues as long as control of those revenues remains with the UK Treasury? Will the First Minister outline what steps the Government is taking to remedy the situation and ensure that Scotland does not miss out on the reported benefits of the £4 billion tax windfall that increased oil and gas revenues are set to deliver for Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling?

The First Minister:

I remind the chamber that the £4,000 million windfall is in addition to the £10,000 million that was already expected from oil revenues. Given the extent of that windfall, which was not predicted only a few weeks ago in the chancellor's budget, it seems not unreasonable to believe that there is plenty of room for manoeuvre to implement policies to reduce the impact of sky-high fuel prices on the people and industries of Scotland.

The member described the situation as a bittersweet irony. I think that the mood is becoming one of fury in Scotland that, alone among the oil producers of the world and while producing 10 times our consumption of hydrocarbons, we should be faced with an extraordinary position. While every other oil producer, through sovereign funds and the build-up of huge sums of capital, has the resources available to power its economy into the future, the people of Scotland are left paying sky-high prices at the pumps and the industries of Scotland are left facing escalating costs. A bittersweet irony? It is a massive national outrage, and it is time that we did something about it.

Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):

Does the First Minister accept that Shetland Islands Council faces an additional bill this year of £1.2 million because of the rising fuel prices to pay for the interisland ferries and bus services? [Interruption.] Shetland thinks that this is important, even if some members do not. Those facts are familiar to other local authorities. Given that it is absolutely within his Administration's ability to do something about that, will the First Minister provide assistance to the local authorities facing the additional costs?

The First Minister:

I believe that, as a Parliament and a country, we must make a claim on the huge additional resources flowing into the United Kingdom Treasury as a result of the sky-high fuel prices. That must be done because that is where the financial flexibility is available to meet some of the pressures that Tavish Scott rightly mentioned. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister:

Communities on the islands and in the north of Scotland face particular pressures, but every community and industry in Scotland is starting to feel those pressures. [Interruption.]

I hear Lord George Foulkes shouting from a sedentary position. Lord George Foulkes should be aware that, if he talks to them, even his constituents have huge concerns about fuel prices. Why does he not get behind the Government for the first time in the parliamentary session to support measures to reduce the impacts?

Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):

We are used to the First Minister being voluble in answering questions for which he has no responsibility. Will he perhaps answer a question for which he has responsibility? He will be aware that there are real-term cuts to the fuel poverty programmes funded by the Government. Will he reverse that decision and enhance the programmes in order to support those who are affected by the rise in fuel prices?

The First Minister:

The premise of the question is totally inaccurate: there are not real-term cuts to fuel poverty programmes. In the initiative to reform the fuel poverty action group, we see a determination by this Government to discharge its responsibilities—would that the Westminster Government occasionally gave a thought to fuel poverty in Scotland.


Common Fisheries Policy

To ask the First Minister what legal advice the Scottish Government has sought regarding the Scottish Government's position on withdrawing from the common fisheries policy. (S3F-829)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

No one seriously believes that the common fisheries policy has brought benefits to Scottish fishermen or fish stocks. We are committed to withdrawing from that damaging policy.

We have established an expert panel to develop alternatives to the common fisheries policy that suit Scottish fishing interests far better. We have already successfully taken greater responsibility and control of our fisheries through policies such as quota reform and the unique conservation credits scheme—unique to Scotland but lauded and about to be copied by many other fishing countries.

Karen Gillon:

I refer the First Minister to the question: what legal advice has the Scottish Government sought regarding the Scottish Government's position on withdrawing from the common fisheries policy? Has that legal advice been sought and, if so, what is it?

The First Minister:

I refer Karen Gillon to a rather obvious point. The circumstance in which Scotland will be able to effect that policy is when Scotland becomes an independent country. Then, there will be no legal obstacle to this Government or any Scottish Government acting in the interests of not just the fishing community but the people of Scotland.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

I will take points of order at the end of First Minister's question time.

John Scott (Ayr) (Con):

Does the First Minister regret the way in which last week's announcement on fishing quotas was handled? I understand that the failure to consult more fully prior to the announcement has caused frustration in the industry. Is he concerned that, by stirring up yet further tension between his Administration and Westminster, he risks sucking the Scottish fishing industry into a potentially damaging dispute?

The First Minister:

I do not agree with John Scott's analysis. There is no serious dispute that matters of quota management are entirely within the province of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government and we should give effect to that. John Scott should surely understand that not just some but all fishing organisations in Scotland support the move to try to vest fishing quota in the communities that have working, practising fishermen. The alternative is to allow a situation to develop in Scotland that has already developed in England, where the vast majority of quota is owned and pursued not by English fishing interests but by the fishing interests of the Netherlands, Spain, France and other countries.

I am sure that John Scott, in pursuit of his free-market objectives, would not want to allow the situation to develop in which there was a mass evacuation of quota from Scotland, particularly when the fishing communities are under such pressure from rising fuel costs. If he does not support that dreadful prospect, for goodness' sake he should get behind the Government's consultation, like the fishing producer organisations, and support the policy.

Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):

The country is entitled to know how we would stand in the unlikely event of an independent Scotland. If the First Minister failed in his attempt to renegotiate the common fisheries policy, would he accept the common fisheries policy or would he leave the European Union?

The First Minister:

We have already demonstrated our ability as a Government to achieve substantial changes in the impact of the common fisheries policy in terms of quota management. I am delighted that the new constitutional affairs spokesman of the Labour Party has brought such certainty to Labour policy on the constitution. We have now found out that he does not think that an independent Scotland is likely. Believe me that, if his Government in London continues in the performance that we have seen over recent years, an independent Scotland is very likely indeed.


Financial Services Sector (Support)

To ask the First Minister, in global financial services week, how the Scottish Government is supporting the financial services sector. (S3F-820)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

From day one, the Government has fully supported Scotland's financial services industry. We recognise the key role that the industry plays in the Scottish economy and we are happy to work closely within the unique partnership of the Financial Services Advisory Board, which I am delighted to chair and on which I am joined by both John Swinney and Jim Mather. Global financial services week was initiated by the board.

As John Campbell, the industry deputy chair of the board, said at Tuesday's launch, the industry is grateful indeed for the smooth transition and the rapidity with which ministers and civil servants got down to business after the election. Scottish ministers are fully involved in the week-long series of events. Apart from my speech—which I will make shortly—at the global financial services conference, I will host a reception at Edinburgh castle later this evening to celebrate the week. Events are also being personally supported by John Swinney, Jim Mather, Fiona Hyslop and Maureen Watt. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister:

I am delighted that Derek Brownlee has given me the opportunity to inform him and Parliament that, later this afternoon, I will announce an important new initiative arising directly out of that partnership working. Our intention is to create a financial services skills gateway for Scotland. It will draw together key partners that are committed to the success of Scotland's financial services, including the Government, the trade unions, Scottish Financial Enterprise and others such as our universities and further education colleges. I have asked David Thorburn—the chief operating officer of the Clydesdale Bank—in a personal capacity to lead the industry group to take forward that initiative.

Derek Brownlee:

I thank the First Minister for his very comprehensive reply. He reeled off a whole list of senior figures in the industry, many of whom he meets in his day-to-day business. Can he name just one of them who supports his Government's plans for a local income tax?

The First Minister:

I can tell that the leading figures in the industry support the Government, as demonstrated by The Scotsman's poll of only three weeks ago, which showed, if I remember correctly—I am open to correction by Derek Brownlee—that there had been a 40 per cent movement towards support for Scottish independence. I do not know whether Derek Brownlee was counted in the figures but, nonetheless, it is an interesting statistic.

Karen Gillon:

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. You selected a question from me to be asked this week about what legal advice had been sought with regard to Scotland withdrawing from the common fisheries policy. That question was not lodged in a vacuum or with regard to the situation in an independent Scotland. It was lodged because the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment's consultation document on fishing quotas, which was published last week, said that the Scottish Government is seeking to leave the common fisheries policy. I therefore asked a specific question about the situation that pertains now, not in an independent Scotland. It is discourteous to the chamber that the First Minister chose not to answer that question, even if the answer would have been "none".

The Presiding Officer:

As I have repeatedly said, such matters are not points of order. The whole chamber was aware of the question that you asked—as you said, it was clear and succinct. The First Minister would be equally aware of the question, and the whole chamber also heard the response.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—