Plenary, 23 Dec 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, December 23, 2004

Official Report 492KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues will be discussed. (S2F-1314)

I do not expect to meet the Prime Minister before the end of the year. If I did, the first thing I would say is a very big thank you to him, the UK Government ministers and the rest of the team that helped Ross Finnie and our team of officials to secure a good deal for Scottish fishing communities in Brussels this week. I would also wish him all the best for the new year from the best small country in the world.

Given the fact that it is the time of year for good will and wise men bearing gifts, has the First Minister been listening to any of the pearls of wisdom that he has been offered recently from within the Labour party? Has he reflected on the views that were expressed earlier this week by the Labour peer Lord Sewel, who lamented the lack of talent in the Scottish Executive and implied that the current crop of ministers are just not up to it?

This Christmas, we should all reflect not just on the achievements of our country in the past year, but on the achievements of the devolved Government and the Scottish Parliament as a whole. Anyone who looks back over the past 12 months cannot fail to recognise the fact that Scotland is a better place today than it was last Christmas and that Scotland will be even better in 12 months' time as a result of the policies of this Government.

It is perhaps no surprise that the First Minister chooses to gloss over the poor performance of certain of his ministers; however, let us move on to the First Minister's second wise man of the week. Is the First Minister aware that the chairman of the Labour party, Ian McCartney, has described Scottish Labour's coalition partners, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, as—let me get this right—

"difficult people with really stupid policies"?

Is the First Minister aware that, according to Mr McCartney, come the general election, Labour will

"be exposing them for what they are"?

I ask the First Minister: why wait until the general election? Why does he not cheer up the Labour back benchers and expose the Liberal Democrats now?

There have been prophets of doom inside and outside Scotland from the beginning; however, the work that has been done by our coalition over the past five years has led to remarkable achievements for Scotland and remarkable progress for our small country. Even in the past week, Labour and Liberal Democrat colleagues have abolished the tolls on the Skye bridge; announced, yesterday, a national concessionary travel scheme for all older people in Scotland; and announced, on Wednesday, a contract with the private sector—which was opposed by the Scottish nationalists—that will deliver operations for people throughout Glasgow. We have also seen achievements for Scotland in a range of other areas, even in the past week. Nicola Sturgeon can quote as much as she wishes from the Sunday newspapers. If she thinks that Ian McCartney's comments about the Liberal Democrats were bad, she should hear what he says about the Scottish National Party. The coalition partnership has been strong for five and a half years. It continues to deliver for the people of Scotland and it will deliver even more in 2005.

Because it is Christmas, I missed out the quote from Mr McCartney in which he said that the Liberal Democrats

"stood for yobs, porn and drugs."

I draw the First Minister's attention to the advice of his third wise man—no less than the chairman of the Treasury Committee. Labour MP John McFall said last week that the First Minister was wrong not to use extra money from the Treasury to ease the burden on council tax payers. Now that a senior Labour MP has accepted the fact that council tax has risen by 50 per cent—I know that that figure upsets the First Minister, so I will say it again: 50 per cent—since 1997, will the First Minister listen to John McFall's wise advice and give the Scottish people a great Christmas present by freezing council tax next year?

Those are decisions for local authorities.

I have regularly been criticised by Ms Sturgeon and other members for not commenting on the work of members of Parliament and members of the House of Lords in London. I have one message for MPs and members of the House of Lords in the other direction: that is to concentrate on their own affairs and to allow this devolved Parliament to concentrate on ours. As a result, we in this devolved Parliament will continue to ensure that Scotland is a better place in 2005.

Local authorities make their own decisions on council tax and such issues, but we in this Parliament and in this devolved Government will ensure that—regardless of the levels of council tax across Scotland—we have, consistently across Scotland, the level of nursery provision, the quality of education and the free fares for older people that we can deliver and have delivered. That will make Scotland a much better place.

I ask the First Minister—no, on second thoughts, we have all heard enough waffle from him for one year. Instead, will the First Minister join me in wishing everyone in Scotland a merry Christmas and a happy new year—wherever they might spend it, eh Jack?

Dear oh dear.

In the spirit of Christmas, I not only wish all members of the Parliament in all parties a merry Christmas and a happy new year but express the hope that, in the new year, we in the Parliament can use the powers and responsibilities that we have to ensure that, in 12 months' time, Scotland is a better place than it is today and that Scotland has respect for the Parliament; I think that that is growing, but it can grow further still.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

I thank the First Minister for his seasonal greetings to colleagues in the Conservative party.

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-1324)

At the next meeting of the Cabinet, in 2005, we will discuss how to ensure that in 2005 we build on the progress that has been made in 2004 and ensure that Scotland is a better place by this time next year.

I hope that among the topics that the Scottish Executive's Cabinet will discuss will be transport issues. Almost every objective observer of the City of Edinburgh Council's forthcoming referendum on road tolls—or congestion charging—has concluded that the question that is posed is loaded. Those observers include the First Minister's colleague, Mr Bristow Muldoon, who in Parliament yesterday described it as "biased and unclear". Does the First Minister believe that such questions should conform with the Electoral Commission's guidelines on how they should be framed?

The conduct of the referendum in Edinburgh is a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council and, much more important, for the people of Edinburgh who will vote in the referendum. I am sure that they will express their opinion when they vote.

It is not only a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council; it is a matter for the First Minister. He cannot leave it to the council, because the Scottish Executive is on record as saying that it will only give the go-ahead to congestion charging schemes that have clear public support. On 3 June, the First Minister stated his

"insistence that the City of Edinburgh Council test public opinion in the city and that that become part of the final decision-making process." —[Official Report, 3 June 2004; c 8894.]

If the conduct of the referendum is flawed, how can he and his Executive have any confidence in the result? Do not he and his Executive have a responsibility to ensure that the referendum is conducted fairly, so that when they make their decision under their statutory responsibilities they can be confident that it is soundly based?

I do not want to and cannot comment specifically on the details of the issue, because, after any referendum in Edinburgh, we have a role to play in taking a clear view on the final proposals. One point that I will make is that it seems to me that those who attack the process are perhaps losing the argument on the substance. Perhaps Mr McLetchie should deal with the substance of the issues not only in Edinburgh but elsewhere, where local authorities and others are genuinely trying to deal with serious problems of traffic management and congestion.

I see that this week the Conservatives not only have been trying to attack the process in the referendum rather than deal with the content of the debate, but have been opposing speed cameras, which save lives throughout Scotland, and other measures that are designed not only to improve the lives of motorists but to ensure that lives are saved and that Scotland is a safer place. Sometimes when the Conservatives try to be on the side of the motorist, they can get it wrong. I would welcome a proper debate on the issue, in Edinburgh and elsewhere, in which we discuss the content of the issue, the objectives that have been set and the mechanisms that will be tried. That is the best way to ensure that we make the right decisions for the future.

The First Minister will have an honest debate if he has an honest referendum and an honest question. The evidence that the poll is rigged is clear for all to see. The question is biased, tens of thousands of people may be denied a vote and a piece of pro-tolls propaganda is going out with every ballot paper. Does the First Minister agree with his colleague Margaret Smith MSP, who said yesterday in Parliament that this is akin to an all-postal general election ballot in which

"the Government was the only party that could include an election address with the ballot paper?"—[Official Report, 22 December 2004; c 13237.]

Does the First Minister call that democracy and a shining example to the rest of Scotland?

There have been times over the past 12 months when the Scottish Conservatives have raised substantial issues at question time and have used this forum for the purposes for which it was designed. Sometimes, that has been in stark contrast to the other major Opposition party. However, I say to Mr McLetchie that this is not the council chamber of the City of Edinburgh Council. This is not the place to debate the wording on a referendum form that was designed by the City of Edinburgh Council for the people of Edinburgh to vote on. This is a place for serious debate on serious issues that affect the future of Scotland. We need to rise to the occasion and debate the issues, not the process, and ensure that, at the end of the day, we in Scotland—and in Edinburgh, too—make the right decisions for the future.

If removing the tolls from the Erskine bridge can be shown to advantage the West Dunbartonshire and Renfrewshire local economies, as well as to relieve congestion on the Kingston bridge and the Clyde tunnel, will the First Minister move quickly, not only to remove the tolls but to consider what road improvements, including the Ochil relief road, would deliver full connectivity?

As we announced on Tuesday, there will be a second phase of our review of tolled bridges in Scotland. We say in the outcome of the first phase of that review that different circumstances pertain to the Erskine bridge from those that pertain to the Forth and Tay bridges. I am sure that Mr McNulty will make his points during the second phase of the review. Those points will be welcome, and we will need to consider them in the light of all the facts.

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Official Visits

To ask the First Minister whether he will be receiving any official visitors from Lapland over the Christmas period. (S2F-1318)

No.

The First Minister must have been a bad boy then, but I thank him for his reply anyway.

Does the First Minister agree that, at this time of year, poorer families come under even more pressure? Is he concerned that high-street stores and lending companies exploit the situation by offering a way out that throws families into debt turmoil? Will the First Minister listen to an example of a low-wage worker who borrowed £3,000 from a high-street lender? Optional cover and an annual percentage rate of 44.6 per cent meant that the low-paid worker paid back £6,630. Will the First Minister condemn those practices, and will he promise to lift the burden of child poverty?

I can absolutely assure Rosie Kane that in 2005 we will continue the progress that we have made in reducing the number of children in poverty in Scotland. I can also assure her that I share the concerns expressed by many members in all parties about the burden of debt being suffered by poorer families in Scotland, in particular at Christmas time. The way to ensure that we tackle the issue is, first of all, to have greater controls on those who lend. We must also ensure that we lift more and more people out of poverty with decent wages, good jobs, a strong Scottish economy, better education and skills for the people of Scotland and all the other improvements that we are working hard to achieve, on which we have made great progress in 2004 and on which we will make further progress in 2005.

Is the First Minister aware of companies such as Brighthouse Ltd, which have a policy of lending money for goods to customers and charging extortionate rates? If a customer misses a payment, the companies call the customer's family, friends and, often, their employer. Is the First Minister as concerned as I am that such intimidating and shaming activity breaches the Data Protection Act 1998? Does he agree that trading standards officers should open an investigation into such companies with a view to revoking the licences of those who exploit and intimidate poor and low-paid workers who are in debt? Will the First Minister promise to protect the poor from those vultures?

I share those concerns and I hope that Rosie Kane will raise them with the appropriate authorities.

Does the First Minister agree that the best present that Santa could deliver to Scotland's shop workers is a guaranteed right to spend Christmas and new year's day at home with their family and friends?

I certainly hope that all people who work in shops and other commercial premises in Scotland will have the opportunity to do so this weekend.

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Volunteering

To ask the First Minister how the Protection of Children (Scotland) Act 2003 is affecting volunteering. (S2F-1322)

The Protection of Children (Scotland) Act 2003 will benefit volunteering because it will bring in a range of measures to ensure that children in Scotland are better protected from harm.

I am grateful to the First Minister for his reply and to the Executive for agreeing to delay the commencement of section 11(3)(a) of the 2003 act until 11 April 2005 to meet the concerns that the Education Committee has expressed on behalf of the voluntary sector. Will the First Minister reassure members that Scottish Executive officials will work closely with local authorities to ensure that the 2003 act, in conjunction with the Police Act 1996, is interpreted sensibly and proportionately? Will the effect of the 2003 act on the voluntary sector, in particular, be monitored? If so, and if that act proves not to be appropriate or proportionate, will the First Minister consider amending it?

I do not want to give any impression that we will amend the safety provisions in the act. We will continue to work closely with the voluntary sector and others in implementing the act proportionately and sensibly. However, those who have called for the voluntary sector to be included in the act and who, in the past and even this week, have called for us to speed up the implementation of the act, while at the same time criticising us for implementing it, are wrong. The voluntary sector asked for and therefore has and should implement the same obligations as the public sector has in relation to working with children. The ultimate priority is the safety of Scotland's children. The 2003 act was introduced because of a series of incidents in recent years that worried the public, families and parents about the safety of children when they work with adults. We are determined to ensure that Scotland's children are protected from harm. The act will be implemented and everyone who has responsibilities under it should ensure that they can fulfil those responsibilities as quickly as possible.

The Protection of Children (Scotland) Act 2003 was intended to close an information loophole that paedophiles could exploit. We acknowledge and welcome the 11th hour deferment of implementation of certain aspects of the act. However, will the First Minister ensure that his officials learn the lessons of the past 22 months and listen to volunteer organisations? Unlike his Minister for Education and Young People, is the First Minister prepared to review the act in the light of the unintended consequences for the voluntary sector? In particular, will he ensure that organisations that provide volunteer experience for young people are not deterred, so that we can ensure that volunteering and active citizenship help to develop modern Scotland?

The topic is interesting and I hope that the Presiding Officer will give me a chance to comment properly on it. I had an interest in the matter when I was the Minister for Education, Europe and External Affairs and continued that subsequently as First Minister.

When the act was proposed, the proposal was not to impose the obligations that it now imposes on the voluntary sector. However, voluntary sector organisations, including YouthLink Scotland and the Scout Association, called consistently—the wording in the submissions was almost identical—for the act to be applied to them and demanded that all organisations that engage adults to work with young people, in whatever capacity, should have a duty to work with the index.

In recent weeks, Ms Hyslop and others have indulged in scaremongering and have issued contradictory statements. This week, Ms Hyslop issued two contradictory statements in one day: yesterday morning, a statement by Ms Hyslop condemned the Executive for not implementing the act in full and said that the act was driving volunteers out of volunteering; yesterday afternoon, a statement by Ms Hyslop welcomed the Executive's announcement that we would delay the implementation of some parts of the act for the voluntary sector and also condemned us again for not implementing the act in full. That sends all the wrong signals to children and volunteers.

The act needs to be implemented properly, consistently and proportionately, because the children who work with volunteers and staff in the public sector need proper protection and the guarantee that the adults with whom they are working have gone through the process that we have put in place.

We will ensure that the voluntary sector has the proper amount of time to enable it to comply with the act, but any signal from any member of the Parliament that any organisation does not need to comply with the act would send the wrong message. We must send the message, unanimously, that the act applies to all.

Is the First Minister aware that the helpline, whose telephone number is in the possession of Euan Robson and has been made public, is a welcome step forward because it will give wise advice and counsel to voluntary organisations and charities that want to get access to information speedily?

I thank Lord James Douglas-Hamilton for that contribution. I am sure that the helpline and the other initiatives that will be taken this week will be helpful to those who work in the voluntary sector.

Despite his earlier comments, will the First Minister confirm that the voluntary sector makes a huge and irreplaceable contribution to the protection and welfare of children? Does he recognise that significant problems have been caused by the widely disparate policies operated, no doubt with the best intentions, by local councils? Is the Scottish Executive able to ensure that there will be a level playing field, without undue red tape, for implementation of the act by local voluntary groups, who, as the First Minister has rightly noted, have all signed up to implementing it?

Where it is possible to achieve a level playing field, that is obviously a desirable objective. However, at the same time, there must be proper arrangements in place for various kinds of organisation and area. The right balance must be struck.

The objective should be clear: to protect Scotland's children from harm. That objective—set in the first session of the Parliament by the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, which demanded that we take action—was implemented in the act. In implementing the act, we must ensure that we have a proportionate response that is consistent across the length and breadth of Scotland.

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Skye Bridge (Tolls)

To ask the First Minister whether tolls will still be charged for crossing the Skye bridge on and after 1 January 2005. (S2F-1327)

No one will be surprised to hear me say that the answer is no, they will not still be charged on new year's day.

I am gratified that, within 24 hours of my lodging that question, the Executive has taken such action. It is a welcome development and an improvement on the situation in respect of the previous 2,000 or so questions that I have asked.

If it was right to scrap the tolls in 2004, why was it not right to scrap the tolls in 1999, when the Scottish Parliament had a chance to build a good reputation for itself?

If the reason for the decision to scrap the tolls is that this particular private-finance initiative project is, in the First Minister's words, a "discredited, Tory PFI", how quickly will the First Minister move to scrap the discredited Tory PFI for the Inverness airport terminal?

I confirmed, not only this week but also a considerable time ago, that we were concerned about the Inverness airport PFI and the charges that are being incurred in that regard. The discussions on that subject continue.

On Mr Ewing's first question, we made the decision at the right time and for the right cost, in the interests of taxpayers as well as of those who use the bridge. The announcement that was made this week represents good value for the taxpayer, because it will save money for local people and for the Government, and is the right decision not only for Skye but for people in Lochalsh and the Western Isles, who use Skye as part of the route to their location, and for the whole western Highlands. I hope that we will move on to seize the opportunities that the toll-free bridge gives to boost tourism, the economy and the quality of life in Skye, Lochalsh and the surrounding area.

I am delighted to hear the First Minister agree that the removal of tolls from the Skye bridge creates a tremendous economic opportunity for the Highlands and Islands, especially Skye and Lochalsh. Will the First Minister ensure that VisitScotland and other organisations that promote the Highlands and Islands make it clear in their literature that iniquitous tolls are no longer charged on the Skye bridge and that entry to Skye and the west Highlands is free to all?

I am sure that VisitScotland, Highland Council and others will want to consider that suggestion seriously. For a long time, I have been conscious that one of the impacts of the Skye bridge tolls was busloads of tourists turning away at the bridge and not going over to Skye. I hope that, from this week, increased numbers of tourists will enjoy the fabulous location of Skye and the experience that they can have there, not just the outstanding, international-class landscape but the friendly and warm reception from the people of Skye, which I enjoyed on Tuesday morning.

As an islander, the First Minister will know and appreciate that residents of the inner and outer Hebrides use the bridge facilities that are provided by Caledonian MacBrayne. Now that the First Minister has ensured that the discredited toll regime on the Skye bridge has been taken care of, does he agree that he and the Executive must urgently examine ways to reduce the tolls that are paid by my constituents and other ferry users?

I thought for a minute that Alasdair Morrison was going to suggest a toll-free bridge to Arran, but his question did not come out that way. I recognise that there are concerns throughout the islands about the fares that are in place, particularly for local people who regularly use ferries to Scotland's islands and particularly on routes to the more remote islands. I understand that Alasdair Morrison regularly makes representations on the issue. I am sure that he will continue to do so, perhaps adding this week's decision to his list of arguments in favour of his position.

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European Championships 2012

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive will announce its support for either a joint bid with other nations or a single bid by the Scottish Football Association to host the Union of European Football Associations European championships in 2012. (S2F-1333)

Obviously, we wish to be helpful to the SFA, but the decision on whether to bid for the UEFA European football championships in 2012 is, in the first instance, a matter for the Scottish Football Association.

As the deadline for bids approaches, it is my understanding that the SFA needs to know whether it has the political backing of the First Minister before it makes a decision. Given that Scotland's football team is currently ranked below Burkina Faso, does the First Minister agree that we must do far more at grass-roots level, rather than using taxpayers' money to fund new stadia for debt-ridden private clubs? Will he say no to such a bid?

I admire Brian Monteith's principled position and opposition to such a bid but we need to make an objective assessment of the benefits of such a bid that might accrue to Scotland, should the SFA comes to us with a proposal. In the meantime, we have a duty to have a twin-track strategy for Scottish sport. First, we need to ensure that we encourage more sporting activity by young and old at local level, which is precisely why we are using for the development of local sporting facilities—particularly all-weather facilities that can be used all year round—not only the money that we set aside for our bid for the 2008 European football championships, but much more than that.

Secondly, we are ensuring that we attract world-class events to Scotland to inspire future generations. For example, as members already know, we will host the Ryder cup in 2014 and the mountain biking world downhill championships in the near future. The year after next, the FISA world masters regatta will take place in my constituency. We are also due to host the 10th badminton world championships. Last night, it was interesting to meet Scotland's fantastically successful Commonwealth youth games team, which has just returned from Australia with 52 medals. The youngsters from Scotland's youth badminton team are inspired by the prospect of the world championships coming to Scotland. Sometimes, we are so obsessed by the ups and downs of our national football team and individual football clubs that we forget that many thousands of youngsters take part in other sports, too. They need, and will get, inspiration and support.

That concludes First Minister's question time, but I ask members to stay in their seats. As members should have been informed by their business managers, there will now be an official photograph. The process should take no more than 10 minutes.

Meeting suspended until 14:00.

On resuming—