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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 20 Dec 2007

Meeting date: Thursday, December 20, 2007


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-376)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

Presiding Officer, I am sure that everyone in the chamber will want to join me in expressing condolences to the families of those who were affected by the tragic events of last night on the River Clyde. It is with great regret that I can tell the Parliament that Clyde coastguard has confirmed that, as at an hour ago, the three missing crew have not been found. The search and rescue operation continues. However, it is possible that, given conditions and the limited hope of success, the operation may be scaled down shortly.

It is understood that the one survivor, who was rescued yesterday, is in a stable condition and was transferred to the Western infirmary in Glasgow. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency headquarters is preparing an official update for me and is in touch with my officials. I will be made aware of any further updates as they occur.

In answer to Wendy Alexander's question, later today I will have meetings to take forward the Government's programme for Scotland.

Ms Alexander:

I thank the First Minister for his answer. Everyone in the chamber will want to associate themselves with the sentiments that he expressed. [Applause.]

It is the season of good will. Regardless of how the First Minister's Government may have mishandled the matter, let me say what he cannot. Personally, I support Donald Trump's application. We in this part of the chamber are determined to keep a proper sense of perspective. We want to send a signal that Scotland is open for business, but we must not send a signal that some are more equal than others.

First Minister, last week you refused to make a statement to the Parliament about Mr Trump's application, claiming that you were a mere constituency MSP. Yet, today, as First Minister, you convened a hastily arranged press conference. Following your meeting with Mr Trump's representatives, why did you call the chief planner—bypassing the rest of the planning directorate—to secure for them a meeting with the chief planner the following morning? Do you still maintain that that was merely the routine action of a constituency MSP, or was it a misuse of the position of First Minister?

The First Minister:

First, on the press conference, Mr John Swinney has today answered in record time the 54 parliamentary questions that were lodged by MSPs. I look forward to Wendy Alexander answering one question on the finances of her leadership campaign. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister:

I am sure that, in the interests of this season of good will and the fairness and judiciousness that must come, Wendy Alexander will want to mention the letter from the permanent secretary, which makes it clear, first, that no civil servant has acted with anything other than total propriety and, secondly, that no civil servant has been asked to do anything improper. Does she now accept that ministers and civil servants have acted with total propriety?

Ms Alexander, can we have questions through the chair, please?

Ms Alexander:

I have here the letter from the permanent secretary, in which he makes it crystal clear that

"Complaints about Ministerial conduct are a matter for him."

By "him", he refers to the First Minister.

I repeat the central question. How many other constituency MSPs can call the chief planner directly, bypassing the planning directorate, and secure a meeting for developers and a call-in within 24 hours?

The First Minister:

Wendy Alexander quotes the permanent secretary. He wrote that he has had

"unambiguous confirmation from the Chief Planner that he has, at no time, been instructed by any party to act improperly."

If Wendy Alexander reads the statement from John Swinney, she will find that the chief planner was once requested to participate in a discussion with the Trump Organization. The date was January 2006, the First Minister was Jack McConnell, and the Deputy First Minister was Nicol Stephen.

As others have pointed out, there was no live application at that time. [Interruption.]

Order.

Ms Alexander:

I return to the question whether it is routine for a constituency MSP to bypass the planning directorate, go to the chief planner, and secure a meeting for developers in 12 hours and a call-in within 24 hours. I ask that because I want also to know why Mr Salmond's Government has been refusing since August—a period of more than three months—to meet the developers that are proposing a £1.2 billion development to regenerate the Rosyth naval dockyard.

I am just being told that the chief planner is meeting those developers, as he meets other developers in Scotland, which is also part—

Six months later.

Order.

The First Minister:

Wendy Alexander should, just occasionally, check her facts before she asks a question.

I am looking at the ministerial code. Not only in the MSP code of conduct are MSPs encouraged to represent their constituents, but the ministerial code says that, on planning decisions, ministers may write to ministers, may advocate a point of view and may lead deputations—I am sure that Duncan McNeil has led a few deputations in his time. All those things are what effective MSPs do. Wendy Alexander should accept that, as detailed in the letter from the permanent secretary, no official in the Government has acted with anything other than total propriety and that no official has been asked to do anything improper. Will she now accept the words of the permanent secretary?

Ms Alexander:

The First Minister knows that there is concern in planning circles about the integrity of Scotland's planning system and whether it has been brought into question. It is completely without precedent for the Royal Town Planning Institute to write to ministers to express concern about the manner in which a case has been handled. This is not simply a political issue; it has become a professional issue.

It is widely believed in planning circles that undue pressure has been brought to bear on the Government's chief planner. Does the First Minister believe that Jim Mackinnon, as chief planner, at any stage came under any undue pressure regarding the application?

I am sorry that, in this season of good will, Wendy Alexander has taken to casting aspersions on Government officials as well as Government ministers.

Answer the question.

George Foulkes, I ask you to desist.

The First Minister:

Wendy Alexander has clearly not read the permanent secretary's letter, so I will read it to her again. The permanent secretary says:

"I have also received unambiguous confirmation from the Chief Planner that he has, at no time, been instructed by any party to act improperly."

That is a comprehensive answer to Wendy Alexander's question.

On the overall context, I was delighted to see that, in response to an opinion poll in the Sunday Herald showing support for independence for Scotland surging by 15 per cent, one of Wendy Alexander's campaign managers was able to say:

"The people of Scotland have consistently shown that they are against independence. The SNP must listen to those views and concentrate on the things that really matter to Scots, like tackling crime".

Jackie Baillie should watch what she wishes for at Christmas—that might just happen in the new year.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-377)

I will meet the secretary of state in late January to discuss taking forward the recommendations of the Gould report.

The First Minister, who is not a man to shun publicity, has recently been revelling in his political game with Westminster of anything you can do, I can do better—[Interruption.]

Order.

Bus operators in England were helped with their fuel bills by an increase in their fuel duty rebate last October, and another increase is likely in April. Why has the First Minister refused to give such help to bus operators in Scotland?

The First Minister:

As Annabel Goldie well knows, the Government is giving substantial support to the bus industry in Scotland. We must consider extremely carefully the current high fuel prices and what they are doing to the competitive position not just of the bus industry and public transport, but of the haulage industry and rural areas of Scotland. That is why I was delighted to meet the Road Haulage Association yesterday.

The Government will make the strongest representations about what high fuel prices are doing to the competitive position of the Scottish economy. Given the £3 billion of additional Scottish oil revenues, above what was expected in the budget, that are pouring into the London Exchequer, I am sure that all members will want to protect the competitive position of the transport industry in Scotland.

Last week, I said that ignorance was not a condition with which I associated the First Minister. However, having listened to the First Minister's answer I realise that I inadvertently misled the Parliament—[Laughter.]

Order.

Annabel Goldie:

I was wrong and I apologise.

It is sterile—indeed, it is hypocritical—of the First Minister and his party to bleat about Westminster and how they want more powers, when the First Minister is not even prepared to use the powers that he has. The reality is that the First Minister's refusal to act will put Scottish bus operators at a £7 million disadvantage, with the threat of higher fares to follow—so much for the busman's friend.

The sad truth about the First Minister has been revealed. Far from being a latter-day Celtic Santa Claus, the First Minister is Ebenezer Scrooge in a kilt.

The First Minister:

I am not the First Minister who was criticised for his varieties of kilt wearing, if I remember correctly.

I do not claim to be Santa Claus, but I can tell Annabel Goldie that the people of Scotland salute what the Government has been doing over the course of the year—not just at Christmas. As she well remembers, the Government will abolish prescription charges in this session of Parliament. Today is no-toll day, when we will abolish the tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges. It is a pity that Annabel Goldie has made an unholy alliance with the Labour Party to try to keep fees for education in Scotland, but we will abolish fees. However, I am sure that we will have her support to remove the rates burden from small business in Scotland, including businesses in the transport industry—[Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister:

On top of that, we have the freeze on council tax and yesterday we had John Swinney's magnificent announcement that, after years of prevarication, we will have a new crossing over the Forth, which will secure Scotland's transport infrastructure.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-378)

The next meeting of Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Nicol Stephen:

In June, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing said that she had a presumption against the centralisation of health services. She said that every proposal from health boards would be subject to rigorous independent scrutiny. Why was there no such scrutiny when she made the decision to end cleft palate surgery in Aberdeen and to centralise the service?

The decision was made in the interests of children across Scotland. Such decisions are always difficult, but the decision in question was made on the recommendation of the best advice available, as ministers do.

Nicol Stephen:

Why is it that when health boards want to close something, the health secretary says that there must be independent scrutiny of the proposals, but when she closes something, there is none of that?

Now the First Minister's Government is gearing up to centralise cancer services for children and neurosurgery. Of the 36 medical specialties in Aberdeen, three are already under threat. NHS Grampian says that centralisation of neurosurgery could cost lives. The Government has taken cleft palate surgery away from Aberdeen, against the advice of the local health board. Does the First Minister support the removal from Aberdeen of neurosurgery and cancer services for children, or will he put a stop to his Government's piece-by-piece centralisation?

Those things will be properly considered and announcements will be made at the time. I do not think that the situation will be helped by scaremongering from Nicol Stephen. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister:

I suspect that what Nicol Stephen has been accused of this week in the north-east of Scotland accounts for the change in emphasis of his questioning today. He has been accused—not by me, but by the Aberdeen Evening Express—not just of scaremongering, but of "gutter politics", scoring "cheap political points" and slinging mud. An epic editorial said:

"Mr Stephen is hardly the one to indulge in … heckling. People in the North-east … haven't forgiven the way he presided over the bypass farce."

Given that he has not repeated his allegations against civil servants or his allegation of sleaze in government, I remind him of what sleaze is. Sleaze is taking £3.4 million from a jailed donor, using it to finance election campaigns in England and Scotland, and refusing to get the money back. That is what sleaze is. [Interruption.] Happy Christmas.

The Presiding Officer:

All questions and answers should be referred through the chair at all times.

I have received a large number of requests to ask supplementary questions and there is no chance that I will fit them all in. I will take a supplementary question from Margaret Curran.

Will the First Minister give me a categorical assurance that the headquarters of the National Theatre of Scotland will not be moved from Easterhouse? Given that it is Christmas, could he for once give a straight answer to a straight question?

The First Minister:

I cannot resist Margaret Curran at Christmas or at any other time of the year, so I give her the answer that the National Theatre of Scotland remains committed to its permanent home base at the Bridge in Easterhouse and to building on its links with the community there. I hope that Margaret Curran is satisfied with that answer at Christmas and that she would be satisfied with it at any other time of the year.

To ask the First Minister what representations the Scottish Government is making to Her Majesty's Government about the price of fuel in rural areas.

My apologies, Mr Allan. I understood that you had pressed your button to ask a supplementary question. I will come to you in a moment.

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):

The First Minister is aware that NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde has completely ignored the recommendations of the independent scrutiny panel's report about the future of health services at the Vale of Leven hospital, much to the anger of local people. I welcome the swift action of the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing.

Is the First Minister aware that NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde has decided to completely usurp the public consultation process and attempt to implement changes on the day of the board meeting? Will he personally intervene to stop NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde pre-empting the cabinet secretary's decision? Will he also personally intervene to help to secure all the services at the Vale of Leven hospital and thereby fulfil his promise to keep health services local?

The First Minister:

The minister has already instructed the health board to take no action until the matter can be subject to independent scrutiny. I know that Jackie Baillie and the Labour benches will welcome the process of independent scrutiny. After all, that same process saved Monklands and the Ayr accident and emergency unit, which the Labour Party tried to close.

Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab):

In January 2001, Bill Clinton was given the traditional opportunity that is afforded to American Presidents and asked by George Bush to nominate one project from his time in office that would be guaranteed by the new President. President Clinton nominated AmeriCorps, and today the number of young Americans volunteering full-time has expanded and passed the half million mark. AmeriCorps helped to inspire ProjectScotland, which was launched here with cross-party support in 2005. Among others, it benefited Amanda Munsey from my constituency, who is here in the gallery.

I must ask you to be brief, please.

Jack McConnell:

ProjectScotland has succeeded with less than half the cost per place of its American cousin. The First Minister's decision to stop Government funding for ProjectScotland will deprive thousands of young Scots of an opportunity to change lives. Will the First Minister provide cheer for young Scots? Will he dispel the rumour that he is a Scrooge, and reinstate Government funding for ProjectScotland placements?

The First Minister:

Jack McConnell knows that £1.4 million of funding is going into ProjectScotland next year. There is no doubt that the organisation does valuable work. He also knows that funding for voluntary sector projects across Scotland is increasing throughout the comprehensive spending review period. He would accept that the initial estimates of the balance between public money and private money, which looked at a 50:50 split, have not been realised. Although difficult decisions often have to be made about overall voluntary sector support, I accept that Jack McConnell is fully committed to the concept. I know that he will accept that within the increased funding to the voluntary sector, many organisations are doing substantially good work with young people. There are always difficult decisions in resource allocation, to ensure that the public purse gets the best effectiveness in helping young people throughout Scotland.


Fuel Prices (Rural Areas)

We have had the benefit of a dress rehearsal for question 4, which is from Alasdair Allan.

4. Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP):

Without reference to my question, I am tempted to say that at this time of year, all pantomimes have dress rehearsals.

To ask the First Minister what representations the Scottish Government is making to Her Majesty's Government about the price of fuel in rural areas. (S3F-380)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth has written to the Chancellor of the Exchequer asking that he consider reducing the level of fuel duty in certain rural parts of Scotland. Yesterday, the Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change and I met the Road Haulage Association to discuss its concerns concerning high fuel prices.

Alasdair Allan:

The First Minister is aware from representations by Angus McNeil MP, me and many others that, in parts of my constituency, the price of petrol has reached £1.20 a litre. Does he agree that, particularly in Scotland's island communities, the United Kingdom Government's apparent refusal to consider either a fuel price regulator or any other mechanism to vary the rate of fuel duty in remote areas is hitting people in all income groups hard? Last night, the First Minister spoke at the Sabhal Mòr Ostaig lecture and confirmed the extent of his and the Government's commitment to the island economies. Will the Government impress on Her Majesty's Government that UK policy in that area appears to be working actively against such economic growth in rural areas?

The First Minister:

In his letter to the chancellor, the cabinet secretary makes it clear that the single UK rate of fuel duty places an unfair burden on the inhabitants of remote rural areas. For obvious reasons, rural people are more vulnerable to rising fuel prices than people in many other parts of the country are; that is true not just in relation to personal or public transport, but because of their reliance on the Road Haulage Association to transport goods and the price of all goods in every shop.

Given the bumper Christmas windfall that the chancellor is receiving from high and escalating oil prices—an estimated £3 billion extra this year—I hope that he will consider measures that could assist the rural areas of Scotland and the road haulage industry. I hope that he will not allow our rural areas, and the competitive position of our transportation system, to be penalised by high fuel prices when gigantic oil revenues are flooding into the London Exchequer.


Climate Change

To ask the First Minister how the agreement that was reached at the United Nations climate change conference in Bali will impact on the policy direction of the Scottish Government. (S3F-389)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The climate change policy direction of the Scottish Government is broadly in line with the agreement that was reached at the United Nations climate change conference in Bali.

The Scottish Government will issue a consultation paper in January on proposals for a Scottish climate change bill, which will include proposals for a target of reducing emissions by 80 per cent by 2050. That means that Scotland could have—if Parliament so judges—the most demanding statutory targets in the world and therefore be at the front of the global fight against climate change.

We will continue to work with our United Kingdom and international partners to develop our climate change response in line with international agreements.

Sarah Boyack:

Does the First Minister agree that we have an obligation to redouble our efforts to drive down our damaging climate change emissions? To that end, will he ensure that the Scottish Government's budget of around £30 billion in each of the next three years will contribute in each of those three years to delivering the 3 per cent year-on-year reductions that the SNP manifesto promised? Will he ask the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth to report back to Parliament and itemise the predicted carbon impact up and down across the entire budget before this Parliament approves it?

The First Minister:

I am sure that the carbon secretary—or indeed the cabinet secretary—will be delighted to report to Parliament. One of the substantial changes in this Government compared with the previous Executive is that our strategic objectives—for example, for a greener Scotland that encompasses the most ambitious statutory target in the world in the climate change bill—are shared by all Government representatives and all cabinet secretaries. I am absolutely certain—I see Labour members nodding and smiling—that the cabinet secretary will be delighted to come to the Parliament and explain just why this Government has set the most ambitious international target for meeting our climate change obligations.

Jim Hume (South of Scotland) (LD):

In the past four years of the Lib Dem coalition Administration, recycling rates increased from 7 to 25 per cent under the ministerial guidance of Ross Finnie. Recently, the Sustainable Development Commission published a report on recycling levels.

Question, please.

The Scottish Government's detailed announcements—

I am sorry, but I must insist on a question. We do not have a lot of time left.

Okay. On the zero waste strategy, will the First Minister advise how his Government will ensure that Scotland meets its waste reduction targets when there are real-term cuts of £26 million in the total waste funding?

The First Minister:

The cabinet secretary will make a statement on waste in the new year. I see some question marks on faces across the chamber, but the statement will reflect on the overall approach to climate change at the conference in Bali and to existing obligations. I am sure that the member will welcome the cabinet secretary's statement.

At the climate change conference in Bali, the Independent State of Samoa, population 214,000, the Principality of Liechtenstein, population 34,000, and—

Question, please, Mr Hepburn.

—the Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis, population 39,000, had their own independent representation. What might the Government of Scotland, population 5 million, have pursued in Bali had it had its own independent representation?

The First Minister:

First, we have the most ambitious climate change targets in the world, which will be discussed by this Parliament. Secondly, of course, were it not for the fact that Labour and Conservative members are in an unholy alliance to try to deny free education in Scotland, we would have been able to send a Government minister to Bali to support the UK delegation. Finally, I am certain that when we have international conferences in the future, the whole international community will be delighted to have the representative from an independent Scottish Government debating those issues of huge importance to humanity.


British Transport Police

To ask the First Minister whether it is the policy of the Scottish Executive to seek operational control over the activities of British Transport Police in Scotland. (S3F-391)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

We have no intention of taking over operational control of any police force in Scotland. However, it is for ministers to set the framework within which the police in Scotland operate and we want all police in Scotland, including the British Transport Police, to operate in a way that meets the needs of all communities in Scotland. I have the most enormous confidence in the eight police forces of Scotland and the way in which they conduct their operations to ensure our safety as a community.

David McLetchie:

I share that confidence, but I extend it to all police forces operating in Scotland, including the British Transport Police, whose primary responsibility is the safety of all members of the travelling public in Scotland. The incident at Glasgow airport demonstrates that there is no room for complacency in Scotland when it comes to public safety. Accordingly, is it not the responsibility of the First Minister's Government to give its full support to all police forces working to protect our citizens rather than, as his Cabinet Secretary for Justice has done, carp and undermine them from the sidelines?

The First Minister:

It is very interesting. In the days after the attack on Glasgow airport, when the chief constables of Scotland asked for powers of stop and search under section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000, there was a great deal of close questioning in meetings in the Scottish Executive emergency room and elsewhere on whether their powers were adequate to protect public safety in Scotland. Their answer was unambiguous: the use of stop and search would be rationed to that emergency and be fully compatible with what they regarded as their obligations to community solidarity in Scotland.

When the eight forces in Scotland—which, I remind David McLetchie, are responsible for ensuring our safety at bus stations, football stadiums, airports, Sauchiehall Street and Princes Street—have a total of 135 uses of section 44 powers and one force operating in Scotland has a total of 16,000, it is entirely appropriate for the Cabinet Secretary for Justice to question those matters in the public interest. What I think is inappropriate, however, is for the cabinet secretary to receive a letter from a United Kingdom minister. Incidentally, the letter is headed:

"PUBLICATION EMBARGOED UNTIL 00:01 HRS

Thursday December 20th".

Some people write press releases and letters, but Tom Harris chooses to put them together. It is inappropriate to conduct debates in that fashion.

To tell the absolute truth, I did not even know that Tom Harris was still a junior minister. I do not know why it has taken him five days to respond to the cabinet secretary's remarks—perhaps we should call him Rip Van Tom. The only time since the election that I have heard from Tom Harris is when he appeared in the papers saying that he had nothing to do with Charlie Gordon's constituency expenses.