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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 17 Apr 2008

Meeting date: Thursday, April 17, 2008


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-670)

Later today I will have meetings to take forward the Government's programme for Scotland, which is enjoying substantial support among the Scottish population.

Ms Alexander:

This week, I will ask the First Minister about obesity. It is a challenge that America and Scotland share: the United States is top of the global league of fat nations and we in Scotland are second. Why did the SNP Government brief at the weekend that it had agreed to break its manifesto promise to deliver two hours of quality physical education for every pupil in Scotland?

Wendy Alexander should not believe everything that she reads in the papers. Reports that we intend to scrap that target are completely unfounded, which should make her next question rather interesting.

Ms Alexander:

It is interesting that the Government's official spin doctor announced on Sunday that

"it has now been agreed that the new curriculum framework"

should have

"no input requirements in terms of subject or time allocations."

On Sunday, the two hours of PE was gone. Now it seems that the First Minister has changed his mind. It is good to see that Labour has delivered a second U-turn in two days from the First Minister. This morning, under pressure from Labour, there was a U-turn on water rates and we have just had a U-turn on PE. If the pledge is staying, how long will it take to deliver and how much will it cost?

The First Minister:

I am delighted that Wendy Alexander wants to claim the credit for Scottish National Party initiatives. She will certainly have more success in doing that than in claiming credit for the Labour Party's policies, which nobody supports.

Over the next three years, we are putting additional investment of more than £40 million into tackling childhood obesity. That is action from the SNP Government. There was no such quotation from a Government spin doctor—spin doctors are the people that Wendy Alexander keeps sacking.

Ms Alexander:

It was not just the Government's official spokesperson. Let us try the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities education spokesperson, who is a member of the SNP. She said:

"We are moving away from narrow targets such as two hours of PE".

The First Minister said that the commitment will be delivered, but as usual he dodges the question when it comes to the detail. With the two-hour target, every parent in Scotland knows where they stand with their local schools, so that is the promise that we look for. If the Government is tempted to negotiate away the target again in its discussions with local authorities, will the First Minister guarantee to come back to the chamber and explain any changes to that promise?

The First Minister:

The difficulty with Wendy Alexander reading out her third question is that she cannot take into account the answer to her first question. I repeat it again for her benefit. Reports over the weekend that we intend to scrap the existing target are completely unfounded. For her benefit and for the benefit of Labour members, I point out once again that investment in this area is increasing by an extra £40 million over three years. Will Wendy Alexander also want to claim the credit for that?

Ms Alexander:

I thank the First Minister for his answer. I have no further questions, because he has changed his mind and he has made a promise. My job for today was to secure the U-turn. We have secured the U-turn and his promise is now to stick to that position.



There was no question, First Minister.

Presiding Officer—[Interruption.]

Order. There was no question, and therefore there is no need for an answer.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

I shall not ask the First Minister about obesity—no doubt to our respective mutual relief.

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-671)

I hope to see the Secretary of State for Scotland on 24 April at the reception that we are jointly hosting for the Forward Edge of the Battle Area veterans charity at Edinburgh Castle.

Annabel Goldie:

This weekend, the First Minister will be at Heriot-Watt University, for less of a spring conference than an SNP love fest. Spring used to be just for the birds; now it is birds, bees, nats and all other forms of winged life. I am sure that when he is there, the First Minister will meet some of the 200,000 higher education students who are currently domiciled in Scotland. How many of them currently pay council tax?

The First Minister:

As Annabel Goldie well knows, it depends where they are staying. Among those who will benefit most from a move from the council tax to a local income tax are those on low earnings. It may come as news to Annabel Goldie that students tend to be on low earnings—if, indeed, they are earning anything at all. Further, given Annabel Goldie's new-found concern for the welfare of Scottish students, perhaps she will realise that she should have backed the Scottish National Party and its allies in re-establishing the principle of free education in Scotland. That was welcomed by every student at Heriot-Watt and elsewhere.

Annabel Goldie:

Let me make clear what the First Minister desperately wants to keep hidden. In government, the Conservatives ensured that students were exempt from council tax. Last year, the First Minister spoke of the financial barriers facing students, many of whom have to work their way through their studies and many of whom pay income tax. When the First Minister is at Heriot-Watt University, what excuse will he give students for landing them with a new financial barrier—the SNP's nationalist tax on learning? How is that fair?

The First Minister:

People should pay based on their ability to pay. People with earnings should pay taxation; people with no earnings or low earnings should pay either no taxation or extremely low taxation. Every student from Scotland will benefit from the abolition of the graduate endowment. Annabel Goldie and her party once opposed but now support the Government's moves to abolish the graduate endowment. Its abolition is welcomed by every student in Scotland. That—and fair taxation—is what the students of Scotland, and indeed the people of Scotland, widely support.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-672)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

How does the First Minister know that his list of efficiency savings of £3 billion over the next three years will not lead to cuts in public services?

The First Minister:

The estimate of efficiency savings is based on an analysis of what it is reasonable to expect from the public sector. Some people—for example Wendy Alexander, in her "hungry caterpillar" speech—felt that the efficiency target was inadequate, modest and unambitious.

We think that the target is set in exactly the right way to ensure the efficient delivery of public services, allowing the money to be reinvested throughout Scotland in key services for the people. Given Nicol Stephen's great interest in local autonomy and local democracy, I am sure that he welcomes the fact that the concordat with local government, among other excellent features, enables local government to keep its efficiency savings for the first time. Every political party across local government in Scotland has welcomed that.

Nicol Stephen:

The truth is that most of the First Minister's efficiency savings document is simply blank space. Has he seen what is missing? For the £1 billion of savings in health boards, his document says that decisions on efficiencies and cuts are best taken locally; that is it. Another £1 billion is unexplained in local government and universities and colleges; there is no information. The Scottish Prison Service said that it was too busy even to fill in the form. It said that it was

"unable to specify a description of the planned efficiency savings"

because

"The immediate priority for SPS is dealing with the record prisoner population".

So £2 billion of the £3 billion in cuts and efficiencies is completely unexplained.

Does the First Minister think that it is right that we have to rely on the shallow reassurance of his back bencher Alex Neil? Mr Neil told Radio Scotland yesterday morning that we should not be worried because the efficiencies are not cuts in the Thatcherite tradition. Are cuts in the Salmondite tradition okay?

The First Minister:

A 2 per cent target for efficiency savings across the public sector is perfectly reasonable and achievable. Many local authorities and, indeed, health boards have more than achieved that over the past few years. If we are to build the framework of a public sector that is efficient in delivering services for the people of Scotland—I am sure that Nicol Stephen supports that—it must be done efficiently. Local authorities in Scotland understand that, as do organisations throughout the public sector; most people throughout the western world understand it. I do not quite know whether the Liberal Democrats understand it yet, but it is perfectly achievable and a perfectly understandable perspective.

One thing indicates the difference between our approach to public services and the approach that Margaret Thatcher's Government pursued and Gordon Brown's Government is pursuing: we believe—and we will hold to this—that we can make those efficiency savings across the public sector with no compulsory redundancies. The trade unions appreciate that deeply, just as they deprecate the policy that has been introduced from Westminster.

Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):

Is the First Minister as surprised as I am that the Foreign Office apparently expects that Scottish taxpayers should pick up the policing costs for the 2005 G8 summit, which was held in my constituency? The bill is for £600,000. Does the First Minister agree that the outgoing Executive should have made a far better job of protecting Scotland's interests, and can he now do anything to ensure that, whatever happens, policing in Tayside is not adversely affected as a result of that bill?

The First Minister:

I have a disagreement with Roseanna Cunningham: I know that the previous Administration, under Cathy Jamieson and Tom McCabe, resisted those unjust demands from the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence. Although the previous Administration and the Labour Party were not often prepared to stand up for Scotland, Roseanna Cunningham should, like me, applaud and congratulate them on the one, isolated example that we have found in which Labour ministers were not willing to shut up for London but were prepared to try to speak up for the people. It seems passing strange that that was found out only in the examination of the documents and that there was no public discussion of the unfair charges that London attempted to impose in the run-up to the last election. Roseanna Cunningham can be absolutely sure that this Government will stand up for Scotland at every available opportunity.

Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):

On the point about standing up for the people of Scotland, during this morning's debate on support for the voluntary sector, your favourite minister, Mr Maxwell, supported by Rob Gibson, expressed the view that your strategy was addressing the problem that the voluntary sector was "growing like Topsy" and a lot of it was "dross". Do you agree? How do you intend to pursue the policy?

I do not have favourite ministers, Ms Lamont.

The First Minister:

The voluntary sector does a wonderful job in applying services throughout Scotland. That is exactly why we have substantially increased funding to the voluntary sector. We believe that its work is invaluable.

Sometime soon, the Labour Party will have to acknowledge the 39 per cent increase in funding across the areas that we are supporting the voluntary sector with, as a testimony to the voluntary sector's key role in partnership with the Scottish Government and local authorities—the true concordat that is revolutionising Scotland.

Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP):

The First Minister is aware of the shameful decision by Labour and Lib Dem councillors in North Ayrshire to remove wardens from sheltered housing—a decision that impacts directly on 573 elderly and often frail and vulnerable people. No consultation was carried out of the residents concerned before the decision was imposed. That contravenes North Ayrshire Council's tenant participation strategy.

Ask a question, please.

Kenneth Gibson:

Does the First Minister agree with the Minister for Communities and Sport that North Ayrshire Council has thereby breached section 54(2) of the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001? Does he concur that wardens should not be removed from sheltered housing without full consultation of residents?

The First Minister:

I am sure that all local authorities in Scotland will want to think carefully about how they apply their services. I am sure that the enthusiasm of the leadership of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and many of our local authorities for the new concordat and shared outcome agreements will bring about a step change in relationships and the delivery of services.

This week, Pat Watters again drew attention to the fact that, for the first time in a generation, the funds that are available to local government in Scotland are increasing as a share of the Scottish budget—from 33.394 per cent this year to 33.624 per cent in 2010-11. Facts are chiels that winna ding. No wonder the Labour Party is reduced to not even being able to ask a question.

Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):

The First Minister should go and check the figures that he quoted.

On the efficiency savings that have been imposed and are supported by the SNP Government, is the First Minister aware that local government, in trying to achieve those savings, is cutting services to elderly people, as was highlighted by the previous question?

Briefly, please.

Local government is also cutting and closing residential care facilities for our elderly people. Are those the efficiency savings that the SNP Government wants?

The First Minister:

Cathie Craigie should reread the hungry caterpillar speech by her leader, which accused my colleague John Swinney of having too modest targets for efficiency savings across the public sector in Scotland. I am not sure whether the hungry caterpillar is part of the new socialist ideology that Wendy Alexander put forward at the Labour conference.

In response to Cathie Craigie's first remark, I have been able to check the figures immediately. They are 33.394 per cent in 2007-08, 33.565 per cent in 2008-09; 33.588 per cent in 2009-10, and 33.624 per cent in 2010-11. As Pat Watters said, funds are increasing year by year as a percentage of public spending in Scotland. Surely even Cathie Craigie will now accept the facts.


Elections 2007 (Value for Money)

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Government considers it and local authorities received value for money in the running of the 2007 elections. (S3F-693)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

There were some really good outcomes from the 2007 elections, but of course there are concerns. There were additional costs for the elections from the introduction of the single transferable vote system and electronic counting. The Scottish Government's element was £6 million, compared with about £400,000 in 2003.

I do not think that any reasonable person could describe the way in which the election was conducted as value for money. Ron Gould's report identified a number of important shortcomings in the conduct of the election. We have accepted his recommendations in full, which I believe every party and every person who is interested in the good governance of Scotland should do.

Keith Brown:

Does the First Minister agree that the company DRS, which failed manifestly to provide the service that it was contracted to provide, should be obliged to rebate properly local authorities and the Scottish Government for its failure? Does he agree that, having failed to make timely, fair and effective arrangements for the people of Scotland to elect their councils and Government, the Scotland Office should agree to transfer responsibility for elections to this Parliament to the Scottish Government, preferably as a last act before dissolving itself entirely?

The First Minister:

I understand that a number of local authorities have successfully pursued compensation claims by invoking penalty clauses in their individual contracts with DRS.

Everybody who is interested in good governance in Scotland will see the wisdom in Ron Gould's recommendation that this Parliament—a single area of authority in both legislative and administrative terms—would ensure better governance in Scotland.

The Labour Party is fast retreating from the debate and the joint declaration that it made in a parliamentary motion. In this, as in so many other areas, merely accepting that London knows best or that this Parliament is not in a relationship of equals with the Labour Party in London will do the Labour Party no good whatever, given its already deplorable position among the Scottish electorate.


First ScotRail Franchise

To ask the First Minister what discussions took place between Transport Scotland and key transport stakeholders prior to the decision to extend the First ScotRail franchise. (S3F-676)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The extension was the activation of a contractual provision in the existing franchise. That provision has existed since the franchise was let, following extensive consultation and competition in 2004. The extension will enable delivery of some of the key objectives of the national transport strategy and "Scotland's Railways", which were also subject to widespread consideration and consultation.

Karen Whitefield:

Does the First Minister agree that the decision to extend the ScotRail franchise could be described as

"rather shambolic and totally lacking in transparency"?

Those were the words of Kenny MacAskill in 2004 when the franchise was agreed. However, they most certainly describe the actions of Stewart Stevenson.

Why has the SNP Government failed to consult key transport stakeholders, disregarded the views of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, and ignored the Auditor General for Scotland? Is that another example of how the SNP operates? In opposition it calls for transparency and openness on the franchise and makes promises about nationalising the railways, but in power it deals behind closed doors and sweeps another key policy under the carpet.

The First Minister:

All processes on the announcement during the recess were observed, including informing Parliament. The extension of the franchise was both commercially sensitive and share sensitive, as Karen Whitefield should understand. I remind Karen Whitefield that her party was in power in 2004—it was not immediately obvious from her question that she remembered or understood that. Perhaps I should have said that in the dark days of 2004, her party was in power.

Where were you?

Order.

The First Minister:

The benefits from the mechanism to deliver commitments and existing schemes out to 2014 in the extension of the franchise are clear. That will mean the extension of express services between Edinburgh and Glasgow; additional early-morning services to allow passengers from Dumfries, Gourock, Ayr, Kilmarnock, Dunblane, Perth and Kirkcaldy to connect to services arriving in London before noon; a community fund to encourage small businesses and communities to make the best use of train station buildings; and improved services from Inverness to Wick and Tain. It also means a profit cap in the franchise contracts, which will guard against windfall profits by the franchisee. If Karen Whitefield tells me that she would have allowed windfall profits, I will have to compare that against the socialist commitment of new Labour.

Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD):

The First Minister read out a string of improvements in the central belt, which are to be welcomed. However, has Scotland shrunk under the SNP? What improvements to rail services will be made in Gordon? For example, will there be a new railway station in Kintore?

The £70 million cashback will be reinvested by the Government in public services.

I point out, as gently as I can, that the last time I checked, Inverness, Wick and Tain ain't in the central belt.

George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):

Is the First Minister aware that the Auditor General told the Audit Committee yesterday that he was not even informed of, let alone consulted on, the extension of the ScotRail franchise? Were the First Minister and the Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change aware that Audit Scotland is conducting an inquiry into the allocation of rail franchises? Why was the Auditor General not consulted?

The First Minister:

The processes around the announcement were fully observed. The commercially sensitive and share-sensitive nature of the contract extension was well understood. The provision to extend the contract was contained in the original franchise. I think that Lord George Foulkes should, like the rest of us, welcome the fact that we will avoid windfall profits for the franchisee and be able to reinvest £70 million across the rail network in Scotland.


Physical Education (Schools)

To ask the First Minister how physical education is being developed in Scottish schools. (S3F-697)

I ask that question with a certain sense of déjà vu.

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

I am delighted to be able to answer that question.

The Scottish Government is clear that physical education and physical activity make an important contribution to developing young people who are fit, healthy and active. New guidance for schools, covering health and wellbeing under the curriculum for excellence, will be released shortly by Learning and Teaching Scotland. That will include outcomes related to physical activity and regular high-quality physical education.

We expect schools to continue to work towards the provision of at least two hours of good-quality PE for each child every week. Reports over the weekend that we intend to scrap the existing target are completely unfounded.

Is that clearly understood?

Murdo Fraser:

Wendy Alexander might have run out of questions, but I have not.

I welcome the First Minister's commitment, but I am somewhat confused. Perhaps I can seek some clarity. In last weekend's Scotland on Sunday, a Government spokesman is quoted as saying:

"it has now been agreed that the new curriculum framework should be outcome-based with no input requirements in terms of subject or time allocations."

Who was that Government spokesman? Was he real or was he a figment of someone's imagination? Is he still in a job today? Or is it the case that the Scottish Government is all over the place on this issue?

As I said, reports over the weekend that we intend to scrap the existing target are completely unfounded.

Who was it?

There will be £40 million extra to tackle obesity. That extra money, which I am sure that the Conservative party—in all its forms—is prepared to support, is applied to not only childhood obesity, but obesity in all of us.

Give us a name.

Order.



It was him!

How many school playing fields have been sold off or otherwise disposed of in the past 20 years and are, therefore, unavailable for physical recreation purposes?

The First Minister:

A substantial number of schools have been sold off. Like me, Ian McKee knows the relationship between the disposal of the playing fields and the private finance initiative/public-private partnership form of funding that is so beloved of the Labour Party. That is exactly why moving to the not-for-profit distribution model is an excellent advance on everything that has gone before.

Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):

How many new PE teachers will be required to deliver the target that the First Minister has committed himself to today? How many additional school facilities will be required? When will every child in Scotland receive a minimum of two hours of PE per week under this Government?

The First Minister:

In eight years, the Labour Party did not meet that particular target. I refer Karen Gillon to the historic concordat with local authorities around Scotland. She will read exactly how the single outcome agreements will bring about improvement in public services that were undreamed of in the dark years of Labour-Liberal control.

That concludes First Minister's question time.

Karen Gillon:

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. When questions are asked in the chamber, it is very important that members receive an answer. The First Minister fails to answer specific questions. When will you hold the First Minister to account for the answers that he gives in the chamber?

It is for the chamber to hold the First Minister to account, as I have said many times—it is not for me, as Presiding Officer.

Meeting suspended until 14:00.

On resuming—