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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 11 Nov 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, November 11, 2004


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Prime Minister (Meetings)

1. Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):

I take the opportunity that is presented by remembrance day to remember all those who have lost their lives in war—soldiers and civilians—and to ask the Parliament to join me in conveying our deepest sympathies to the families of the soldiers who have lost their lives in Iraq in recent days.

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues will be discussed. (S2F-1182)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Before I answer that question, I echo what Nicola Sturgeon has said. It is unusual for us to meet on armistice day and we need to say not only of those who died in the first and second world wars and in conflicts since then, but of those who have died serving their country in the past week in Iraq, that we will always remember them and have their families in our thoughts. I absolutely assure those who are currently serving their country in Iraq that they continue to have my absolute and full support in the difficult task that they face.

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future.

Will the First Minister request a meeting with the Prime Minister as soon as possible in order to convey to him the anxiety of many people in Scotland about the deployment of the Black Watch in support of United States operations in Iraq?

The First Minister:

I regularly discuss those matters with the Prime Minister and other United Kingdom Government ministers and, as I have previously said in the chamber, I have expressed a number of views to them about the position of the Scottish regiments.

I take a straightforward view on the deployment of British troops and Scottish soldiers in Iraq. Whatever anyone thinks of the initial decision to rid Iraq of Saddam Hussein, the Parliament's duty and responsibility is to support the British—and, in particular, the Scottish—troops who serve their country in Iraq in difficult circumstances. One of the worst things that we could do to the international reputation of the Black Watch in particular would be to withdraw the regiment from the important task that it is carrying out, which is ensuring that the people of Iraq are not beheaded and murdered by terrorists in their country. Our soldiers are helping to protect the people of Iraq from those terrorists.

Nicola Sturgeon:

All of us in Scotland support the troops, but the politicians who sent them there deserve our condemnation. The myth that the decision to send the Black Watch to northern Iraq was a military decision has been exposed by the regiment's commander, who said that he hoped that the Government knew what it had got itself into but that he was not sure that it appreciated the risks that our soldiers faced. The truth is that the decision was political, not military, and it was taken by a Government that knew the risks only too well, but decided to press ahead regardless, simply because the US President asked it to do so.

On 28 October, the First Minister said in the chamber that, like us all, he hoped that there would be democratic elections in Iraq in January. Is he aware that, in a letter to the Prime Minister last week, the Secretary-General of the United Nations expressed the clear view that US military tactics in Iraq—including the assault on Fallujah—are hindering and not helping progress towards democracy in Iraq? Given that there are now Scottish soldiers in the firing line, will the First Minister urge the Prime Minister to start listening much more to the Secretary-General of the United Nations and much less to the President of the United States?

The First Minister:

I have no intention of getting involved in an unseemly political debate on armistice day about the position of Scottish and British troops in Iraq, but I must respond to the points that have been made. I reiterate what I have just said. I remind Ms Sturgeon that innocent British and Iraqi civilians, aid workers and innocent Iraqis who have signed up to serve their country and potentially to provide it with its first-ever democratically based army and police force are being threatened with beheading and are being kidnapped. Their lives are being made hell by a group of terrorists who are trying not just to challenge the work of the British Army and that of other soldiers from around the world who are serving in Iraq, but—much more important—to undermine those who are currently trying to organise Iraq's first-ever democratic election.

The worst thing that we could do internationally, for the future reputation of our soldiers in the Black Watch and for the current situation in Iraq, would be to retreat from that challenge and to allow those individuals to win the battles that are taking place in the streets of Iraq. Anyone who thinks otherwise—and some of the remarks by certain London-based politicians over the past week have been despicable—is very wrong. Those people have never had to make a serious decision in their lives.

The sentiments expressed by Black Watch soldiers have been reported in some of our national media over the past 24 hours. They say, "Back us in the job that we have to do. Don't undermine us when we are there." I certainly hope that everyone in the chamber will listen to those sentiments.

Nicola Sturgeon:

Innocent Iraqi civilians are dying under American firepower while terrorist leaders escape. That is what Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, has said runs the risk of further alienating ordinary Iraqis and that is what we all have to bear in mind.

Robin Cook, a London-based politician and also Labour's former Foreign Secretary, said yesterday that what the ordinary Iraqi civilians need to hear is that the US and other occupying powers will leave the country soon. In the interests of peace and democracy in Iraq, will the First Minister convey this message to the Prime Minister on behalf of the Scottish people: that there must be no more Scottish or British troops deployed in support of US operations in Iraq and that those US and UK troops who are already there should be withdrawn as soon as possible and replaced with a United Nations force that can begin to steer that country towards peace and democracy?

The First Minister:

I do not want to get into an unseemly discussion on this most important of days. However, I have to say that those who have fought for their country in all kinds of situations over the past century, and who have fought not just for Scotland but for the British Army, and their families would be horrified at the prospect of our running up the white flag and allowing those who are trying to undermine the efforts to move towards democratic elections in Iraq to win. However, I do not think that they would be surprised that such comments and calls would come from a political party that has as its deputy chief whip someone who describes the flag under which the Black Watch fights in Iraq and elsewhere as the butcher's apron. For Bruce McFee, appointed by Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon as the deputy chief whip of the Scottish National Party, to describe the flag under which those men fight as the butcher's apron, not only once but twice in the past month, is shameful and calls into question anything that is said by the leadership of the Scottish National Party about supporting British troops in Iraq.


Cabinet (Meetings)

2. David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):

I associate my party with the gracious remarks made by Nicola Sturgeon and by the First Minister in relation to armistice day. We send our condolences to the families who have lost their loved ones in the conflict and our best wishes for a speedy recovery to the soldiers who have been injured and wounded.

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-1183)

At the next meeting of the Cabinet, we will consider our progress in relation to the legislative programme.

David McLetchie:

Two weeks ago, I asked the First Minister whether he would publish the letter that he said he had written to Mr Hoon, the Secretary of State for Defence, on the subject of the six Scottish regiments. It would appear that he has not chosen to do so. Earlier this week, as the First Minister and everyone else will know, the spin coming out of Downing Street was that four of the regiments had been saved, but yesterday in the House of Commons the Prime Minister refused to confirm or deny that. All the scandalous spin and counter-spin on the subject means that our troops do not have a clue where they stand. That is bound to affect morale and our troops deserve far better than that. I ask the First Minister to tell the chamber what is going on. If he does not know, will he undertake to contact the Secretary of State for Defence again to find out?

The First Minister:

I do not really have a clue what was going on in London yesterday, as I was concentrating on matters in the Scottish Parliament. I discussed the matter with the Prime Minister on Tuesday afternoon and made my views clear to him. I said that the continuing uncertainty over the future of the Black Watch regiment in particular required his attention. I also said that, when Scottish soldiers and other soldiers who are not Scots serve in the Black Watch under the British flag in the front line of duty for their country, they should have the certainty of knowing what their future will be when they return. I put those views to the Prime Minister and I believe that he will have taken them on board. I hope that a decision on these outstanding matters can be made as quickly as possible.

David McLetchie:

The First Minister is absolutely right to highlight the concern that the state of uncertainty is causing to our soldiers, to their families and to people in the wider community in Scotland who support the campaign to retain our regiments. The issue is not simply about resolving the uncertainty; I asked the First Minister whether he would bring his political influence to bear on the Prime Minister in the process of achieving the result that the campaigners seek, which is, of course, to preserve the historic identity of our six Scottish regiments.

The First Minister was quick to intervene in this debate a few weeks ago, when, for the sake of a headline, he said that he supported the aim of preserving the regiments. Has he said anything of substance to the Prime Minister on whether we should have six historic Scottish regiments when the Black Watch returns, or does he still believe, as he indicated a few weeks ago, that all the regiments should be merged into a single super-regiment?

The First Minister:

Given the accusation that David McLetchie made in his first question that I had not published something that might get me a headline, to accuse me in his second question of headline seeking seems inconsistent. Some people have been headline seeking on the issue, including people who do not support the existence of a British army at all, never mind the existence of any of the regiments within it. Their hypocrisy is there for all to see.

It is important that I should be clear again. I believe that the identity of the six Scottish regiments should be maintained. Although that view does not seem to have strong support in the British Government, I have stated it before and I do so again today. I also believe that it is important that the current uncertainty should be cleared up as quickly as possible, particularly as our troops are in the front line.

I stress the point that I made earlier—it is important that our Scottish soldiers and other, non-Scottish soldiers who are serving their country in the front line of duty do not have to return to uncertainty about their position. They should not have to fight at such a time. I hope that the Prime Minister and the military chiefs, who I understand will make the decision, can do so as quickly as possible, make it public and ensure that the soldiers are reassured.

David McLetchie:

If, as the First Minister said, the current view of the British Government is not that the identity of the Scottish regiments should be preserved, will he tell us what the view of the British Government is and what he is doing to seek to change it?

The First Minister:

I said that that does not appear to be the majority view of those in the British Government at the moment. That would have been perfectly obvious to anyone who had watched the debate. Unlike the Conservative party, which was at it again yesterday, at least the British Government has a view that is consistent from one week to the next. Contrary to everything that the Conservatives have said in the Scottish Parliament and everything that Mr Howard and Peter Duncan have said, someone called Patrick Mercer—who is likely to be the minister for homeland security if, God help us, the Conservatives win the election that is to be held at some point in the next two years—said on "Good Morning Scotland" yesterday that he could not commit to the continued existence of six regiments in Scotland should there be a Conservative Government.

All that I ask—and I ask this from both main Opposition parties in the Parliament—is for a bit of honesty and consistency. If we can have that, we can have a sensible debate, in which we can do justice to those who serve their country and through which we can make them as proud of us as we are of them.

We have two constituency supplementaries.

Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):

I have noticed that all the pictures from Iraq show that the Black Watch soldiers are indeed proudly fighting under a flag—everything that I have seen suggests that that flag is the Scottish saltire, not the union flag.

I listened carefully to what the First Minister said and his comments were as careful as my listening was. I ask him to go further. In response to Nicola Sturgeon, he expressed his concern about troops being undermined by a debate here in Scotland and in the UK. Does he not agree that the biggest single factor that is most likely to undermine the morale of the troops in Iraq is the threat of their regiment being disbanded when and if they return? Does he not believe that all of us should actively support and campaign on the demand to save Scotland's regiments?

The First Minister:

With a few notable exceptions in our history as a nation and in the history of the United Kingdom, political parties in government and in opposition have taken the view that, whatever debates take place about the initial decision, should the country go to war or commit troops to the battlefield, those troops will get the full support of political parties once they are there. The one thing that undermines the troops, their morale and their security is the behaviour of those who this past week have called for them to retreat in the face of duty. That is a wrong call and it has undermined the position of the Black Watch.

I absolutely understand the feelings of the families of members of the Black Watch and the feelings of some in the regiment who I am sure are concerned about the uncertainty about the future of the regiment at a time when it is on duty in Iraq. However, I also understand that, when the troops are there, they need to have our full support—they need the full support of Scottish nationalists as much as they need the support of the rest of us who support the British Army.

Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):

I am grateful, as my constituents will be, to the First Minister for reaffirming his position in defending the integrity of the Scottish regiments. Will he say clearly to the Prime Minister that, whatever the outcome of the Army board review, the identity of the King's Own Scottish Borderers and the Royal Scots should be retained?

The First Minister:

Like other members, I have a slight constituency interest in this matter. I have a clear position on the six regiments and their identities, but I also recognise—I made this point two weeks ago and it does not in any way imply a lack of commitment to supporting the six identities—that decisions have to be made in the British Army about the way in which a modern army operates and the way in which people are deployed, so as to help those who join the Army and their families, as well those who have to run the Army and deploy it internationally. It is important that the decisions that are made are made rationally and on the basis of current conditions, as well as on the basis of the needs, desires and demands of recruits and potential recruits. However, my view is that it would be in the best interests of Scotland and of our local communities if the six identities were all preserved.


Prime Minister (Discussions)

To ask the First Minister what issues are the Scottish Executive's highest priority for discussion with the Prime Minister. (S2F-1199)

I have already indicated the issue that was the highest priority for me to discuss with the Prime Minister this week.

Tommy Sheridan:

I disagree entirely with the First Minister's argument that today, on armistice day of all days, we should not discuss war. Eighty-six years after the war to end all wars and 200 million more deaths later, we have a duty to discuss the issues to prevent any more lives from being lost in war.

On 13 March last year, the First Minister said:

"None of us wants unnecessary war and we all have concerns about the impact of military action on innocent people".—[Official Report, 13 March 2003; c 19434.]

Ten days ago, The Lancet revealed that the number of innocent Iraqi civilians who have been killed in the illegal invasion is 100,000. Does the First Minister now accept that the war was not only unnecessary but illegal?

That is a reserved matter. I will leave it to the First Minister to respond as he sees fit.

The First Minister:

I do not want to reiterate previous arguments. I say simply that if, even occasionally, Tommy Sheridan made points as passionately about the need to combat international terrorism, about any pleasure that he might feel—although he has hidden it well—about the fact that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power in Iraq, or in support of the soldiers who serve the British Army in Iraq, the people of Scotland and those soldiers would take his position on the war more seriously.

Tommy Sheridan:

That is a cheap shot in relation to Saddam Hussein, because none of those who opposed the war in Iraq was an apologist for Saddam Hussein's regime. On the contrary, those who opposed the war were the ones who opposed Saddam Hussein when successive British Governments were arming and financing him. The First Minister talks about the morale of Scottish troops, but does he acknowledge that the single biggest factor that undermines the morale of Scottish and British troops in Iraq is the fact that they are there under false pretences and on the basis of deception and lies? Will the First Minister support the growing call in Scotland to bring home the troops now to prevent any more blood from being spilled and any more hearts from being broken?

The First Minister:

No. As I have said before, whatever views people might have had—many views from all parties were expressed in the Parliament—on the initial decision to go to war in Iraq as part of the multinational force, right now would be the worst possible time for British troops to pull back, given that two months from now there could be democratic elections and that innocent Iraqi, British, Irish and international citizens are being kidnapped, beheaded and terrorised. In that situation, it would send entirely the wrong signal if British troops were to pull back and let the people who are doing those things win. It is vital that, when people are given a job to do, they have our full support to complete it and to win this battle. The world will be a much better place as a result.


Airport Rail Links

To ask the First Minister what benefits the proposed rail links to Edinburgh and Glasgow airports will have for the tourist industry and our economy. (S2F-1193)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Direct rail links to Edinburgh and Glasgow airports will be attractive to businesses and beneficial to Scotland's tourist industry and will help to reduce traffic congestion. Our investment in those key links will also ensure that Scotland is better placed to benefit from the growth in air travel that is expected over the next 10 to 20 years.

Sarah Boyack:

I welcome the First Minister's positive reply. However, does he acknowledge that it is vital that we invest now in new rail, tram and station developments to ensure that people throughout Scotland and in Edinburgh and the Lothians in particular have access to high-quality public transport choices that will allow them to access the new air routes and the major office developments without the whole area grinding to a halt, with the serious consequences that would result for business and the environment?

The First Minister:

It is important that people have transport choices and that we tackle congestion in Edinburgh and invest, as we are doing, in improved transport links in and around Edinburgh. However, it is also important that we tackle what I believe is one of Scotland's international shames, which is that we do not have rail links to our two main airports. The commitment of this devolved Government to ensuring that those links are pursued will be welcomed the length and breadth of Scotland. I was absolutely shocked to hear that the Scottish National Party has adopted a new policy of opposing the rail link, as expressed by Fergus Ewing this week. It is important that on such a basic issue of infrastructure and services for Scotland we have support throughout the chamber to prove to the people of Scotland that the Parliament will make a difference.


Fresh Talent Initiative

To ask the First Minister what progress has been made on the fresh talent initiative. (S2F-1195)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

I am pleased to say that we have made considerable progress on the attraction of fresh talent to Scotland. We are working with the Home Office on the implementation of the new scheme, which will take effect from next summer, to allow overseas graduates to stay in Scotland for two years after the completion of their studies. We have established Scottish international postgraduate scholarships. The relocation advisory service is operational and our website continues to attract considerable interest.

Dennis Canavan:

I congratulate the First Minister on introducing the fresh talent initiative. However, is he concerned that it might have only limited success? For example, is he concerned about the fact that, of the more than 90,000 migrant workers who have come to Britain from the new member states of the European Union, only 6 per cent have come to Scotland? Is he concerned about the fact that David Blunkett would rather lock up the many skilled asylum seekers who are already in Scotland than allow them to work? Will he consider what can be learned from the experience of Quebec, which has responsibility for immigration matters even though it is not an independent sovereign state?

The First Minister:

I can confirm that we took on board the experiences of Quebec, the Australian states and a number of other parts of the world when we put together the initial package of proposals that make up our fresh talent initiative. We continue to look for best practice elsewhere and for new ideas that will take us forward.

Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):

I welcome the fresh talent initiative but point out the difficulties that are being experienced by Stevenson College Edinburgh, which has indicated that 18 per cent of international students that it has recruited this academic year have cancelled their study. Of that number, 31 per cent cancelled their study due to visa refusal. Does the First Minister agree that that is a case in which we should have powers over entrance to the country as well as entrance to the colleges?

The First Minister:

Members will know that I have looked into the matter as individual cases have been raised in the chamber. As a result of that, there have been improvements in the way in which visa applications are handled in British embassies, particularly in relation to Scottish higher and further education institutions. However, there is a particularly persistent problem that we are trying to tackle with the assistance of the colleges and universities, which relates to delays that are caused when people fill in application forms wrongly. The best way of tackling that is for students to be given support and advice from the institutions that they want to study at before they go to the embassy with their visa application. That is a practical and constructive way forward that, as I saw recently in Beijing, is making a huge difference to the number of visa applications that are successfully processed on time. It is a system that will work elsewhere as well.

Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):

Does the First Minister agree that, if we are to make a success of the fresh talent initiative, we must understand what attracts people to live and work in Scotland and what discourages them from doing so? What steps is the Executive taking to listen to the valuable insights that are being voiced on that subject by, for example, the 800 foreign nationals who are vital to the success of the IBM international call centre in Greenock?

The First Minister:

The experience of the IBM centre is not only useful for Greenock and Inverclyde and our fresh talent policy, but an example that we can use internationally in our attempts to attract other businesses to Scotland. Indeed, in recent confidential discussions with a major international business that might locate in Scotland in the near future, we were able to use that example as part of our package of arguments to attract it to locate here. The IBM experience is great for the local area and for our fresh talent policy, but it also provides an example of how successful a business can be in Scotland, which helps us to attract other businesses to come here.


Convention of the Highlands and Islands

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Executive will evaluate the effectiveness of the convention of the Highlands and Islands. (S2F-1187)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

The effectiveness of the convention can be partly shown by Government decisions that have been prompted by discussions at the convention. Recent examples of such decisions include the relocation of Government jobs to the Highlands and Islands; increased action on, and resources for, affordable housing; action to reverse depopulation and to attract fresh talent to Scotland; more direct air routes and other transport improvements; and continuing progress towards the creation of the university of the Highlands and Islands. Those and other examples show the effectiveness of the convention of the Highlands and Islands and of Labour and the Liberal Democrats in partnership in government.

Rob Gibson:

Will the First Minister consider the effectiveness of his convention's agenda? He was not debating the repopulation of the remoter Highlands and Islands, where 90 per cent of young highlanders have no option but to find work elsewhere when they graduate. Will he identify for next March's convention meeting in Shetland how to stem that huge export of talent that could be transforming the economic potential of our area?

The First Minister:

Mr Gibson should ensure that the office that I understand he has in the area where the convention of the Highlands and Islands was meeting on Monday pays attention for the whole day and not just the early part of it. On Monday in Thurso, not only was the convention of the Highlands and Islands meeting and discussing those important issues, but the initiative at the edge group of local authorities was meeting ministers and other agencies. That initiative supports the remoter parts and those areas of the Highlands and Islands that are under real pressure. At that meeting, the minister was able to announce additional resources for the initiative from our recent budget and therefore more support for proposals that will help to tackle the problem that Mr Gibson raises.

That concludes First Minister's—

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

You just made it, Mrs MacDonald.

Margo MacDonald:

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Will you revisit the decision that you made when you informed me that you had considered whether there should be changes to the standing orders on how we conduct First Minister's question time? You said that you had considered the matter seriously and that on only two occasions since had something of a diversion been created instead of our having questions and answers. Will you revisit that decision in light of what happened today? All members will agree that today we had two question times: one that was relevant and in which we were all interested because there was an exchange of information and the First Minister was held to account, and one that served no useful purpose in the chamber. Will you revisit your decision to rejig First Minister's question time?

I always consider carefully what comes back from the chamber. I shall do so again today.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Is it in order for the First Minister to mislead us by suggesting that my office should know what is going on at the convention of the Highlands and Islands when MSPs are not allowed to attend?

I am not terribly sure of the details, so I will reflect on that as well.

Meeting suspended.

On resuming—