Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, June 8, 2023

Official Report 1187KB pdf

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Portfolio Question Time

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Education and Skills

Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is portfolio questions on education and skills. I invite anyone who wants to ask a supplementary question to press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question.

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Modern Apprenticeships (Support)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on what support it is providing for modern apprenticeships. (S6O-02340)

The Scottish Government has agreed the Skills Development Scotland budget for 2023-24 and SDS has completed contract awards to support up to 25,500 new modern apprenticeship starts in 2023-24. Official statistics that SDS published on 23 May this year report 25,447 modern apprenticeship starts by the end of quarter 4 in 2022-23. Statistics also show that the number of apprentices in training across the country is the highest ever, at around 39,000.

SDS provides an all-age career service in every local authority area, highlighting the options that are available to people across Scotland, including modern apprenticeships, and undertakes further activity, together with employers, to highlight the importance of modern apprenticeships, particularly through Scottish apprenticeship week.

We continue to work closely with SDS to monitor and support modern apprenticeships throughout Scotland.

Last month, the Scottish Training Federation stated that the Scottish Government’s delay in setting a budget for skills and employability programmes had led to 75 redundancies since April.

Last year, there was an apprenticeship freeze, and this year’s vital budgets, including the individual training account budget, have been delayed. Why are apprentices and training providers always the Government’s last consideration?

The member will recognise some of the financial challenge with which the Government has been presented, not least in relation to inflationary pressures, which have meant that we have had to recalibrate budgets across the Scottish Government. I do not make an apology for that today, but I recognise the challenge that was presented to me in the first two weeks of undertaking the post of cabinet secretary.

It is important to say that we have had a slight increase in the number of modern apprenticeships, as I outlined in my initial response. I recognise the challenge from the federation; I am delighted that we have now been able to commit to that funding and move forward.

I am committed, as cabinet secretary—working alongside Mr Dey—to working with the sector to ensure that we support the roll-out of modern apprenticeships. Those qualifications are really important to support people into work; in that respect, it is hugely important that we take cognisance across Government of the skills review report, which was published yesterday. Many recommendations of the Withers review are around the delivery of skills and how they could be delivered in the future.

I am aware that, as cabinet secretary, I have a plethora of different reports coming to fruition at a similar time; it is important that we have an overarching strategic direction from Government as we move those reports and their respective recommendations forward.

There are a couple of supplementaries. They will need to be brief, as will the responses.

On Monday, Scotland’s leading electrical bodies were celebrating a boost for the industry after receiving confirmation of financial support for the next intake of electrical apprentices and adult trainees. Fiona Harper of the Scottish Joint Industry Board said:

“This second guarantee of additional places means we can continue to train and develop a significant number of skilled electricians”.

Amid enormous pressure on Government budgets due to Tory economic mismanagement, is that not support of the demonstration of the value that the Scottish Government places on apprenticeships?

I stress that the definition of brevity is being observed in breach here. I call the cabinet secretary.

I welcome that news as very positive. Investing in skills across a person’s lifetime is critical to our future productivity as a nation. The commitment underlined more broadly in our national strategy for economic transformation highlights that fact, too.

I was delighted that, in May, SDS undertook a re-allocation process and issued updated contract awards for more than 2,000 new modern apprenticeship starts, to provide us with strong evidence of employer demand. Where there is a need to support critical skills in the economy, our priority as a Government continues to be to ensure that apprenticeships are of the highest quality and lead to sustainable employment opportunities.

The percentage of women who start modern apprenticeships has dropped. One reason that was suggested for that drop was the increase in construction-related apprenticeships, where women represent just 2.5 per cent of starts. Does the cabinet secretary agree that more women should be encouraged to take up roles in construction? Can she set out what steps it will take to increase female representation in the sector?

Pam Duncan-Glancy makes an interesting point. Overall, 38.1 per cent of starts were female and 61.9 per cent were male. However, she is absolutely correct to point to the industry-specific challenges around gender. I am more than happy to take that point away, particularly in relation to “construction and related”, as it is badged, which has seen the largest proportion of new starts. It is really important that more women come into such fields. We have more than 22 per cent who have been supported through modern apprenticeships in health and social care and information technology.

I will take Pam Duncan-Glancy’s point away, and I will raise it with the Minister for Higher and Further Education, who is responsible for SDS.

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Violence in Schools

To ask the Scottish Government what it anticipates the outcomes will be of the proposed summit on tackling violence in schools, which was announced by the education secretary on 24 May. (S6O-02341)

Planning for engagement and the summit on relationships and behaviour is currently under way. I intend that the summit will be held as soon as is practicable, noting that we are just three weeks away from the end of the summer term. The summit will focus on practical support at classroom, school and local authority level, to make a difference on the issue. It will hear from young people, parents and carers, schools, local councils and unions to discuss how to tackle it. The findings of the summit will form part of the broader evidence base that is being considered by the Scottish advisory group on relationships and behaviour in schools.

I am disappointed by that answer. It is two weeks since the commitment was made to set a date for a summit, and we still do not have a date. I thought that we had all agreed in the chamber—all the parties—that it is a matter of grave importance and urgency, but there did not seem to be very much of that in the answer that the cabinet secretary has just given. I hope that she will not hide behind the actions or inaction of her officials. In all sincerity, I ask the cabinet secretary, please, not to let down our teachers. Please do not let down our pupils. Please do not let down our parents. Do something. When will the cabinet secretary commit to tell us the date on which the summit will be held?

Prior to portfolio question time beginning, Stephen Kerr asked me about the Hayward review, which will, of course, publish its report in the next few weeks. I am very conscious that, in the past two weeks, we have spent a considerable amount of time debating behaviour, which we debated two weeks ago, and the national discussion, which we debated last week. In two weeks’ time, we will debate the Hayward review. We also had the publication of the Withers review report yesterday. There are lots of different things happening in Government on education, and I am not necessarily sure that Stephen Kerr’s question is fair in that respect.

What I have committed to is action before the end of this parliamentary session. That is hugely important. To that end, I will convene a headteacher task force to consider the specific issue of consequences and exclusion. In the meantime, I have asked Education Scotland to work with every local council to identify good practice, so that those findings can be discussed as part of the summit and shared across the country.

I will be more than happy to update Stephen Kerr before the end of the parliamentary term—the summer term—with a date for the summit. He makes a number of comments about teachers. I do not know whether he speaks to teachers regularly, but I do. This time of year is very stressful in schools, and it is hugely important that we remember that the system—[Interruption.]

Mr Kerr, you have asked your question. Let the cabinet secretary respond.

Cabinet secretary, please bring your response to a conclusion quite quickly.

In attempting to answer the question, what I was trying to outline to Mr Kerr is that schools are currently overloaded with lots of things happening. I do not want to add to that burden. In my responses to Mr Kerr and Mr Halcro Johnston, I have outlined some of the reviews that are coming to fruition. [Interruption.] I am hearing Mr Kerr commenting from a sedentary position, Presiding Officer.

Will you resume your seat, please, cabinet secretary?

Mr Kerr, I have warned you before. You can ask the questions, but you do not then get to provide a running commentary on the responses.

Cabinet secretary, I have appealed for shorter responses to the questions.

I call Willie Rennie for a brief supplementary question.

Last week, in the national discussion on education report, the cabinet secretary will have read the major concerns about the prevalence of harassment, discrimination, bullying and violence in schools across Scotland. The situation is urgent. She has talked before about bringing forward the survey that is due to report in the autumn. Has she had any success in expediting that?

I think that the survey that Willie Rennie is referring to is the behaviour in Scottish schools research. According to my officials, because of the way in which that evidence is gathered in relation to qualitative and quantitative data, I am not able to bring the reporting date forward. I have tested that with my officials—I did so before the debate that we held two weeks ago.

I am keen to hold the convention of headteachers before the end of the parliamentary term—in the next three weeks—to talk to the specific issue of exclusion, because there is currently a challenge around that. Willie Rennie has outlined some of the challenge that is in the national discussion report, which we discussed last week. We will have the results of the Hayward review in a couple of weeks’ time, which will look at qualifications right across the piece. I am very mindful that the system has a number of different reviews coming to fruition at the moment.

I take Mr Kerr’s point, and that of Mr Rennie, in relation to urgency, and I commit to acting with urgency to bring headteachers together on the issue before the end of term, but I will not overload schools with this before the end of their summer term. However, I undertake to give Parliament an update before the end of term, which will include a commitment to a date for the summit.

We need greater brevity in the responses.

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ABZ Campus

To ask the Scottish Government how secondary school pupils in Aberdeen will be supported through the launch of ABZ campus. (S6O-02342)

I welcome the launch of the local authority-led ABZ campus in Aberdeen city. The ABZ campus will aim to broaden the curriculum options for pupils in secondary 4 to secondary 6 and give them access to a range of learning options that are directly linked to growth sectors. The pupils have been supported throughout the application process and, through the free bus travel that is available to under-22s, have had the opportunity to visit the campus ahead of the launch.

I am pleased to note the partnership approach that has been taken through this initiative, including the involvement of employers through Developing the Young Workforce North East. I welcome the opportunity that it creates to help young people to develop their vocational and technical skills, preparing them for the next step on their journey to fulfilling and rewarding careers.

The ABZ campus will offer a diverse range of courses across areas such as engineering and construction, science and social subjects, and dance and drama. I hope that everyone will join me in wishing those involved every success as they embark on this exciting new chapter.

The cabinet secretary has already partly explained this, but how does she expect that this innovative idea will offer new benefits and enhancements to the young folk in Aberdeen?

I am pleased to welcome the commitment to the ABZ campus, which is being led by the local authority and a number of different partners. I join my colleague in wishing the young people of Aberdeen every success as they take part in this new learning opportunity, the positive impacts of which I look forward to seeing. As cabinet secretary, I will be looking to consider any lessons that we might be able to learn from the new partnership approach, particularly as we take forward the outcomes from the Hayward review, which I have alluded to in responses to other members.

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Dargavel Primary School

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on any discussions it has had with Renfrewshire Council regarding Dargavel primary school. (S6O-02343)

The Scottish Government is taking seriously the capacity issues at Dargavel primary school, and we continue to have regular discussions with Renfrewshire Council about the school.

The previous Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills met representatives from the school, Dargavel primary parent council, Neil Bibby and Natalie Don late last year and, I am told, had constructive discussions. In the chamber last week, I committed to doing likewise and to progressing the issue.

Scottish National Party Renfrewshire Council built a school that is half the size that it needs to be. That catastrophic and wholly avoidable blunder risks harming pupils’ education, and it will cost taxpayers £75 million to put right. Parents tell me that they have lost all confidence in the council, and they fear that the council’s £75 million plan is flawed and risks repeating the past mistakes.

What does the cabinet secretary intend to do to ensure that the council listens to parents and does not waste even more public money?

I recognise that the issue that the member raises is a very serious one. As cabinet secretary, I do not shy away from that. Of course, the local authority has a key role to play. I have not yet met the parents and carers. I am keen to hear from them directly. I am told that the council has continued to engage with the parent council. It has also created a dedicated web page and an email address for any public queries.

However, it would be remiss of me to comment further at this time, without having met the parents who have been affected by what is a very serious situation.

Dargavel parents have said that they have no confidence in Renfrewshire Council, the chief executive and the director of education, so does the cabinet secretary agree that the review that Renfrewshire Council initiated and paid for cannot possibly command public confidence?

Renfrewshire Council admitted that it made an error when determining pupil numbers for the new school back in 2017. At that time, it apologised to parents and carers for significantly miscalculating the projected pupil roll.

I will not comment on the authenticity of the independent review thus far. I am keen to meet the member and the parents who have been affected by the situation at Dargavel to discuss the matter in more detail.

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Skills-based Apprenticeships

To ask the Scottish Government what it is doing to fund traditional skills-based apprenticeships that lead to professional qualifications. (S6O-02344)

The Scottish Government has agreed the Skills Development Scotland budget for 2023-24 and SDS has completed contract awards to support up to 25,500 new modern apprenticeship starts in 2023-24, which will include modern apprenticeships in craft roles.

Courses in skills-based labour make a positive contribution to industrial recruitment. A recent report that was published by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development found that the biggest gaps in recruitment are in technical, vocational and specialist skills. It also found that bringing employers and the education system closer together can result in benefits for young people as well as for the organisations involved.

What assessment has the Scottish Government made of the impact of the reduction in skills-based courses on recruitment of new workers in vital industries?

Investing in skills across people’s lifetimes is absolutely critical to our future productivity and success as the economy and our labour market continue to evolve. That is underlined by our commitment to having a skilled workforce, as set out in the national strategy for economic transformation. Our priority now is to ensure that apprenticeships are of high quality and lead to sustainable employment opportunities, including in craft roles.

Lantra, in my constituency, currently provides modern apprenticeships and other training in a range of areas that promote traditional and rural skills. What support has the Scottish Government provided to Lantra in recent years?

The Scottish Government and other agencies continue to engage with key stakeholders, including Lantra. The Scottish Government is committed to promoting inclusive growth and to creating opportunities for all—including through use of apprenticeships—in order to ensure a vibrant, sustainable and productive rural economy. I would be happy to ask the relevant minister to write to Jim Fairlie with further detail of the support provided to Lantra.

Traditional skills-based apprenticeships are vital in supporting a just transition. I know from my meetings with apprentices that there is perceived stigma attached to doing an apprenticeship as opposed to going to university. That lack of parity between post-school learning pathways is clearly reflected in the Withers review of the skills system in Scotland. Does the minister accept the report’s finding that there is no parity of esteem? What action will she take to rectify that?

We thank James Withers for his thorough and comprehensive review, which provides critical and compelling insights into the current skills delivery landscape. The review highlights challenges within the current system and makes recommendations about how it should be changed to ensure that it is fit for the future.

We have heard loud and clear the calls for significant reform and we will not shy away from decisions that will deliver better services for learners and employers. However, decisions about reform of public bodies cannot be taken lightly, so we must work with the affected bodies, unions and legal professionals to consider the practicalities of implementing the review’s recommendations and to inform our next steps.

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Trinity Academy

To ask the Scottish Government how it is supporting City of Edinburgh Council with the Trinity academy redevelopment. (S6O-02345)

All local authorities in Scotland have a statutory responsibility to manage and maintain their school estates. However, through the £2 billion learning estate investment programme, the Scottish Government will provide significant financial support to the City of Edinburgh Council for Currie community high school, Liberton high school and Wester Hailes education centre projects, which were identified by the council as its priority projects for investment.

Scottish Government funding through the learning estate investment programme is intended to augment, not to replace, local authorities’ own investment in their school estate.

I recognise the Scottish Government’s strong record of investment in our school estate, particularly since 2007. The capital investment that has already been put into the Bangholm facility at Trinity academy has made a tremendous difference to the school and wider community. The next phase of redevelopment will provide a new community campus with much-needed contemporary learning and teaching spaces for a roll of 1,200 students in an area that has a growing population in our capital city. I therefore ask the Scottish Government to continue to use its schools for the future programme to support the City of Edinburgh Council, and I ask that the redevelopment of Trinity academy be completed as part of that and as quickly as can practically be achieved.

I thank the member for his question. We will continue to support the City of Edinburgh Council through the previous schools for the future programme and the current learning estate investment programme, which I mentioned in my initial response. Through the schools for the future programme, the City of Edinburgh Council received funding of £63.8 million towards its four priority school projects. As I said, we are providing additional financial support through the LEIP funding for another three projects.

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Modern Apprenticeships (Construction)

To ask the Scottish Government how many modern apprentices working in construction, from the 2017 and 2018 cohorts, are still in training. (S6O-02346)

As of 31 May 2023, 28 apprentices out of 801 from the 2017 cohort and 205 apprentices out of 862 from the 2018 cohort remain in training.

I thank the minister for that answer. Construction apprenticeships are meant to take four years, yet the information that she has just provided demonstrates that, for people in the 2017 and 2018 cohorts, the apprenticeship is lasting up to five or six years. In my discussions with the Construction Industry Training Board, it has expressed concern that the changes to assessment that were required by the Scottish Qualifications Authority in 2016 have had a detrimental impact on apprentices’ ability to complete their training on time.

Will the minister commit to looking at implementing a temporary professional development award in line with that for electrical apprenticeships? Will she review the assessment that was implemented? Will she meet the CITB to come up with a satisfactory arrangement for those measures?

I thank Mr Johnson for his questions. The challenges that have been experienced with the 2017, 2018 and 2019 construction apprentice cohorts completing their apprenticeships are being carefully monitored. As the member rightly noted, the delays are related to changes in the qualification assessment that were introduced in 2017, the knock-on effect on college capacity to deliver the changes, and the impact of Covid-19.

Work has been undertaken by partners to address and reduce the backlog. We have seen some improvement, but it is not progressing as quickly as it should. The Scottish Government is continuing to work closely with all agencies to improve the rate of completion while maintaining the quality of the apprenticeships.

I understand that Mr Dey is alive to the need to address the backlog and that he has had useful dialogue with the CITB and is seeking to meet the SQA to explore solutions for clearing it.

Question 8 is in the name of James Dornan. He appears not to be with us, so that concludes portfolio questions. Before we move on to the next item of business, there will be a brief pause to allow the front bench teams to change.