School Bus Safety (PE1098 and PE1223)
Agenda item 3 is consideration of seven current petitions. We are taking the first two petitions together: PE1098, by Lynne Merrifield on behalf of Kingseat Community Council, and PE1223, by Ron Beatty, are both on school bus safety. Members have a note by the clerk and the submissions.
The committee previously agreed to defer consideration on PE1098 and seek an update from the Scottish Government in 2015. That will be requested and be made available for the committee’s next consideration.
As no member wishes to contribute, do members agree to write to Transport Scotland requesting that it take account of the petitioner’s most recent submissions, highlighting breaches of Transport Scotland’s school bus safety guidelines, and that we defer further consideration until the evaluation report is available in late summer?
Members indicated agreement.
Is the committee also agreed to take any other action it considers appropriate in relation to the petition?
Members indicated agreement.
11:11 Meeting suspended.A Sunshine Act for Scotland (PE1493)
The next petition is PE1493, by Peter John Gordon, on a sunshine act for Scotland. Members have a note by the clerk.
Two submissions and a further email from the petitioner were received after the committee papers went out. It is unhelpful for submissions to be received after papers have been issued. The committee gives everyone it writes to sufficient time to respond. In the Scottish Government’s case, the committee expects that in future responses will be received in good time.
I invite members’ contributions.
I am disappointed that the Scottish Government has not responded timeously. I agree with your suggestion that notification be given to the Government that we expect timely responses.
The further information submitted by the petitioner should be passed on to the Scottish Government. In the Scottish Government’s response, it alluded to the fact that the petitioner had not provided additional information, so it would be useful to forward on the latest correspondence and ask that the Scottish Government respond to the issues raised in it.
The Scottish Government is looking to bring in a system that is
“fit for 2015 and beyond.”
I think that that is what the petitioner is looking for, too. Although they concur on that, the difficulty is getting the Scottish Government to take the appropriate action to ensure that the petition is meaningfully considered by it and, in particular, health boards.
I think that the situation is fine. The Government was dilatory, leading to a delay, but there is a willingness on its part to look at the issue.
The matter is rather complex, given that it involves bringing together how various boards are operating. It seems to me that we should certainly pass on to the Government the information that the petitioner has provided to us, but we must give the Government the opportunity to bring together what work is being done and what it will deliver. I do not think that that can be done quickly, because it is quite a complex area that involves interaction with other activities in the NHS and elsewhere. We should push the Government to keep us abreast of matters or to indicate a clearer timetable for the action that will be taken.
11:15
I am delighted to agree with Mr MacAskill.
I feel that I must strike a slightly discordant note. According to the information that we have, guidance was issued to health boards in 2003 that they should establish registers. It is now 2015, and the petitioner has highlighted that a number of health boards do not have a register in place and, according to the petitioner, have no intention of putting one in place. Given that, 12 years down the road, the health boards have not taken on seriously the guidance that was issued in 2003, it is incumbent on the Scottish Government to ask them why that is the case and why action has not been taken before now to address the issues that have been raised.
In its letter, the Scottish Government said that no issues had been raised by patients or family members, but it is clear that the petition raises issues, which should be addressed accordingly by the Scottish Government. If it takes 12 years for the guidance to be reviewed, refreshed and implemented, that is too long.
Does the committee agree that we should write to the Scottish Government to welcome its announcement that it is to conduct a wider consultation on the issue and to seek a firm timetable for that work? Does it also agree to seek the Scottish Government’s view on what effect the forthcoming European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations code on transfers of value from pharmaceutical companies to healthcare professionals and organisations will have on what the petition seeks, and to take on board the points that Mr Wilson made?
Members indicated agreement.
No More Page 3 (PE1521)
The next petition is PE1521, by George Eckton and Jane O’Donnell, on no more page 3 in The Scottish Sun and the Scottish Parliament. Members have a note by the clerk and the submissions.
I bring to members’ attention the fact that I have recently been appointed to the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body and that I am on record as supporting the no more page 3 campaign. I invite contributions from members.
I am minded to suggest that we close the petition on the basis that we have fulfilled what was asked of us, which was that we draw the matter to the Scottish Parliament’s attention. We have done that. I suppose that we could, if we wished, make a further representation to the SPCB. Ultimately, our responsibility was not to resolve the issue but to highlight it in the Scottish Parliament. I believe that that has been successfully done, so I am not quite sure what the next step for the committee would be in taking forward the petition.
I certainly support the no more page 3 campaign. A week or so ago, it looked as if the campaign had been successful as regards its overall objective, but that does not seem to have been the case.
As Jackson Carlaw said, the committee has done what it was asked to do. I think that we might stray into dangerous territory if we were to decide that a particular publication could not be sold in the Parliament building. That decision should be left to the SPCB.
Do members want to refer this petition to the SPCB, or do we want to close it?
My view is that we have written to the SPCB, which has discussed the matter, and that we should therefore close the petition. That does not reflect my view on the issue of substance, but I think that we have taken the petition to its logical conclusion.
Do members agree to close the petition?
Members indicated agreement.
Access to Justice (PE1525)
The next petition is PE1525, by Catherine Fraser, on access to justice. Members have before them the note by the clerk and a letter from the convener of the Justice Committee. I invite contributions from members.
A lot of work is being done by the Scottish Legal Aid Board and the Scottish Government on how to protect the integrity of a legal aid system that is under financial pressures. I understand people’s desire for action, but since time immemorial, and certainly since the establishment of legal aid, in order to avoid a growth of defamation cases there has been no public policy interest in the matter.
It would seem to me that, because we are in a state of fluidity as legal aid changes and tries to come to terms with court and legislative changes, all that we can do is write to the Scottish Legal Aid Board and the Scottish Government and ask whether there is any willingness to change the current view. However, I think that it is difficult for the proposal to be dealt with on its own and that it would have to be part of a wider review of legal aid.
Do members agree with that proposal?
Members indicated agreement.
Creationism (Schools) (PE1530)
The next petition is PE1530, by Spencer Fildes, on behalf of the Scottish Secular Society, on guidance on how creationism is presented in schools. Members have a note by the clerk and the submissions. I ask members for comments.
I understand that the Education and Culture Committee has expressed a willingness to review the issue. If that committee is willing to look at it, we should send the petition to it.
That might be what we end up doing. I have read many of the submissions that we have received, and I see that many of them characterise creationism as supreme bilge, which is a view that I have some sympathy with. The issue thereafter is whether it should be taught in schools.
The view of the Scottish Government, the Educational Institute of Scotland and School Leaders Scotland is that they do not believe that prohibition would be the right way forward. When we interrogated the petitioners, my view was that anything should be subject to the light of day. I do not believe that, when these issues are raised, individuals and their families—because parents have a role in all of this—will fail to bring out the truth in people’s minds with regard to whether they regard creationism as science, which seems to me to be unlikely.
The fact is that the Scottish Government did not see merit in banning creationism in schools. Therefore, although we might want to refer the petition to the Education and Culture Committee, I do not know whether it will be able to do anything other than write to all the people to whom we have written and receive the same replies back. If the committee feels that that would be a useful thing for us to do, that is fine, but I think that we have had fairly comprehensive and forceful responses from the Scottish Government and the teaching unions and professional bodies, none of which believes that a formal prohibition in law would be the right way forward.
I might be corrected on this, but the EIS and SLS—whose views, it must be said, were challenged in a submission by a headteacher called Alex Wood, whom a number of us know and who wrote in an individual capacity—and others indicated that professional safeguards were built in.
As I understand it, the problem that was highlighted when the petition was presented to us is that no such professional safeguards are in place for classroom assistants or others from outwith the teaching staff who come into educational settings. The issue for us is quite clear. Although we are not saying that people should be stopped from coming into schools in particular circumstances to present their case, the issue is whether it was appropriate in the circumstances that were highlighted in the petition for the situation to have arisen.
It would be worth while to send the petition on to the Education and Culture Committee, because a number of issues have been raised in the submissions, which highlight that there are constraints within the English and Welsh education system but that there do not seem to be any constraints on what is taught in the Scottish education system. It might be useful if the Education and Culture Committee is prepared to look at the issues and investigate how the Scottish system compares with those in other jurisdictions, particularly in the light of the response that we received from the Scottish Government.
Having read the submissions, I believe that the most salient point was one raised in the Free Church of Scotland’s submission. It states:
“Politicians seeking to enforce their doctrines through the State education system is the mark of an authoritarian, not a democratic state ... The petitioners are demanding that children be told what to think. The Free Church of Scotland believes that children should be taught how to think. And we believe that in a mature democracy, sceptical questioning and alternative points of view should be encouraged rather than banned.”
From the responses that we have received overall, there is clearly no appetite for the Government to interfere on the issue. However, as John Wilson stated, there may be a need for further safeguards. I would be content to refer the petition to the Education and Culture Committee.
I ask Mr Wilson and Mr MacDonald whether that is not actually a call for this committee, having got to this point, to write to the Scottish Government again ourselves, drawing to its attention the point on classroom assistants and others that Mr Wilson has identified to see whether the Government believes that it has taken that into account in the response that it gave us previously. I am not sure why we are passing on the petition when, if we feel that we would like further clarification on an issue, our normal course of action would be to seek clarification ourselves.
I would be happy for the committee to explore the issue further, convener, if that is the will of other committee members, and then possibly look at referring the petition to the Education and Culture Committee if need be.
I have to say that I was persuaded by Jackson Carlaw’s initial comments. It seems to me that it is for the Education and Culture Committee to decide whether it wants to take the matter further. It might be that it decides not to do anything with the petition. I would be hesitant about us doing anything other than remitting it to the Education and Culture Committee. If it says that it does not want the petition, I think that we will have done as much as we could to focus it and to have got some clarity on the matter. It is for the Education and Culture Committee to decide whether it wants to pick up the petition and run with it.
I am happy to refer the petition to the Education and Culture Committee.
I would tend to agree with Mr MacAskill—that is a first for me, too, Jackson—that we should refer the petition to the Education and Culture Committee. It is then up to that committee to decide what it should do with it.
If that is the will of the committee, I am happy to support it.
Are we agreed?
Members indicated agreement.
Planning (Rights of Appeal) (PE1534)
The next petition is PE1534 by Clare Symonds, on behalf of Planning Democracy, on equal rights of appeal in the planning system. Members have a note from the clerk and the submissions. I invite contributions from members.
The Government has made it clear that it will not rush to pass further legislation because it is satisfied with how matters are bedding down. In a similar way to the previous petition, it seems to me that, if the Local Government and Regeneration Committee wishes to go somewhere with the petition, that is a matter for it, but we have explored the issue as far as we can. We have had some clarification, and I do not think that approaching the Government again would take us any further than where we are at the moment.
I agree with Mr MacAskill. We should accept the petitioners’ request that the petition be referred to the Local Government and Regeneration Committee and refer it.
I support that.
Are we agreed that we will refer the petition to the Local Government and Regeneration Committee?
Members indicated agreement.
Polypropylene Mesh Medical Devices (PE1517)
The next petition is PE1517, on polypropylene mesh medical devices. I welcome Neil Findlay and John Scott to the meeting. As members are aware, due to the weather in the New York area, Adam Slater is unable to appear by videoconference today. I know that that will come as a disappointment to the petitioners, who are here today, and to others who have contacted me and are also in the public gallery. We have a note by the clerk and two written submissions.
I suggest that we reschedule the evidence session with Mr Slater. What are members’ views on that?
I am happy to support that course of action.
Do you have any comments, Mr Findlay?
Before I make any comment, I would like to know whether the committee has come to any conclusions about how to proceed with the petition.
I have a point that would lead us to that stage.
The committee was appalled by the evidence that we heard, and we were enormously encouraged by the cabinet secretary’s action in calling for a suspension of the use of such devices. However, it has been disturbing to hear that their use has, nonetheless, proceeded in a number of places.
Underneath it all, I am increasingly concerned by the drift of travel in the various reviews that are taking place, to which we have previously referred—particularly the review that is being conducted by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. It seems to me that the MHRA is moving towards recommending that the benefits of proceeding with mesh implants outweigh the risks. It states that it has come to that conclusion despite the fact that
“there is some evidence of under-reporting and there are concerns that MHRA is not aware of all women who have experienced problems.”
That seems to be, potentially, quite a dramatic obstacle to the progress that many of us thought was being made. Are we able to invite the MHRA to give evidence to the committee? I think that, when it concludes its review, which I think will happen in March, we ought to seek to take evidence from the MHRA. I am concerned that its report may give force to the direction of travel of Governments—potentially beyond our shores—despite the fact that there is considerable concern on our part that the rather glib assessment that
“the benefits ... outweigh the risks”
seriously fails to represent the concerns that we have heard from those who have given evidence to us. We can see what we thought was tremendous progress going into reverse, and we have a responsibility to take evidence and pursue the issue. Thereafter, we may open up the issue to wider debate in the Parliament when we have an opportunity to do so.
I thank Mr Carlaw for that.
It is disappointing that Mr Slater cannot give evidence, although that is perfectly understandable, given the weather conditions in the US at the moment.
We know that, since the cabinet secretary announced his alleged suspension of the use of mesh, it is still being fitted inside the bodies of women in Scotland, but that is now called a clinical trial. Since then, we have also witnessed multimillion-pound compensation settlements being paid out to several people, with thousands more sitting in the pipeline. A range of other issues are related to the on-going scandal, on matters such as the ethics of how medical trials work, the involvement of professionals in those trials and the people who sit on the review bodies. There is a tangled web of issues that we have to unravel.
If we are going to get all that out in the open—and out in the open it must come—it is up to the Parliament to do that. Whether that is through a Public Petitions Committee inquiry—I have never sat on the committee, so I do not know whether that is within its remit—by asking the Health and Sport Committee to hold an inquiry or by having a committee debate in the Parliament, something has to happen to allow us to debate all the complex issues that relate to the case.
Mr Slater used a powerful analogy in the Sunday Mail at the weekend. He said:
“Politicians wouldn’t allow a car on the road if one in 10 crashed and injured people.”
For nine out of 10 people driving those cars, the benefit outweighs the risk, but one in 10 could crash the car and end their life or dramatically change it. Are we going to allow that to continue to happen in Scotland, when we know what has happened across the US and the world?
I am happy to come back to the committee and I am keen to hear Mr Slater’s evidence, but my appeal is that the committee makes a decision very soon as to how it wants to proceed and whether to bring the issue to the Parliament or have a more in-depth inquiry. Every day that we delay, the potential is that another woman’s life is ruined.
I identify myself with the foregoing remarks of colleagues. I, too, am disappointed that Mr Slater cannot give evidence, although obviously that is for entirely understandable reasons.
I am concerned about the different approaches that health boards are taking. Given the precedent that is being set in America, I am concerned about the financial liabilities that individual health boards might incur, as compensatory payments might subsequently be required. Ultimately, that will come back on to the Scottish Government.
I am disappointed that the MHRA, apparently almost by its own admission, might not be aware of all the risks or problems. What is the point of such a body if it admits that it is not aware of all the risks? Therefore, it is absolutely right that it should be invited in front of the committee to explain itself. Mr Findlay draws the analogy with one in 10 cars being defective. That would not be an acceptable standard in transport, so I cannot see why it is acceptable in health matters and, in particular, with mesh implants.
Therefore, I support the view that the issue must be investigated much more fully than it appears to have been. If the Parliament is taking the lead in the world on the issue, all power to its elbow.
As I said at the outset, we should schedule an evidence-taking session with Mr Slater as soon as possible, and I think that we should also invite the MHRA to give evidence. I have been advised that we cannot compel it to attend, but we will endeavour to do that. On whether we should hold an inquiry into the matter, I do not know how the process would work, but it might be quicker to have a debate on it in the chamber.
The action that the committee can take quickly is to get in touch with Mr Slater and the MHRA. That will be the end of our evidence taking, and we will then be able to compile our report and send it to the relevant parties. Thereafter, a quicker way forward might be to have a chamber debate rather than an inquiry.
I remind colleagues that the Scottish Government has an independent review under the chairmanship of Dr Lesley Wilkie, which will make its own recommendations based on the MHRA review. As well as the MHRA, we might want to invite the chair of that independent review group to give evidence so that we can understand its thinking, based on what it has heard.
I support Jackson Carlaw’s point. As well as evidence from Mr Slater, the MHRA and the chair of the independent review body, it might be useful to take evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport. From the initial discussion that we had with the previous cabinet secretary, the committee was under the impression that all mesh implant operations had been suspended pending the inquiry. It is clear that that did not happen and that some health boards are using the issue of clinical trials as a way round the suspension.
It would be useful to hear evidence from the cabinet secretary and her Scottish Government officials, the MHRA and Mr Slater before we have a chamber debate, as there are still issues that we need to examine. I would not want the committee to ask for a chamber debate without all the facts being before us, including the results of the MHRA’s evidence-seeking inquiry.
Some concerns have been raised about the Department of Health’s response to the committee, because it is clear that it is not doing a full trawl of all those who have had mesh implant operations to find out whether there have been benefits. Mr Findlay mentioned the analogy of one person in 10, but the committee has heard that a number of patients are coming forward only now, because of the campaign and because of the discussions that have taken place in the committee.
It is incumbent on us to ensure that the MHRA is doing as full an inquiry as possible before it presents evidence, and that the independent inquiry that the Scottish Government has set up does likewise. That will ensure that we reflect the true situation out there and not a hypothetical situation, or what is suspected. We know from the evidence that we have received so far that not all medical staff have reported where there have been complications and some patients have not been aware who to report the complications to.
We need to ensure that any inquiry that is carried out is a full inquiry that takes on board the views and experiences of all patients who have undergone these operations.
I have two points. First, time is of the essence here, because the more we delay, the more potential there is for more people to be, in my view, victims of this growing scandal.
Secondly, I have not spoken to the petitioners today, but I can almost guarantee that, if the committee gets people in to give evidence on the issue, the same number of people will be here in the public gallery each time. They are probably the most determined and diligent campaigners I have come across in a long time.
Given the pain and suffering of many of these people, which is a challenge to their being here, I make an appeal that one session is held and everyone is invited to attend it, rather than the committee holding three or four sessions, in which case people who find it difficult to travel and to walk would have to come here time and again.
The European Commission took evidence at the end of last year and has a report coming out this month. It might be worth while inviting it to give us evidence as well.
As there are no further comments, I will sum up. There are five action points. First, we will quickly get in touch with Mr Slater and invite him to give evidence. Secondly, we will invite the chairman and chief executive of the MHRA along. Thirdly, we will write to the new Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport and invite her back for an update. Fourthly, we will consider whether to have a single agenda item and to try to accommodate as many witnesses as we can on that day, but we will need to consider the logistics of that. The fifth point is that we will also invite the European Commission to give evidence. Are we agreed?
Members indicated agreement.
Convener, you said that the committee would invite the cabinet secretary “for an update”. Just so that I am clear, does that mean that the committee will write to the cabinet secretary and she will come here to give an update, rather than doing it through correspondence?
Yes. We will invite the cabinet secretary to come back to the committee. Is that agreed?
Members indicated agreement.
Thank you, colleagues.
Meeting closed at 11:46.Previous
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