Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Meeting date: Thursday, March 17, 2022

Official Report 1072KB pdf

---

Portfolio Question Time

---

Education and Skills

Good afternoon. I remind members of the Covid-related measures and that face coverings should be worn while moving around the chamber and the wider Holyrood campus.

The next item of business is portfolio questions, on education and skills. Members who wish to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button or type R in the chat function during the relevant question.

Questions 1 and 2 were not lodged.

---

School Buildings (Condition)

To ask the Scottish Government what proportion of schools are being reported as in good or satisfactory condition. (S6O-00880)

School buildings across Scotland are in their best condition since recorded figures began. The proportion of schools in good or satisfactory condition has increased from 61 per cent in April 2007 to 90.2 per cent in April 2021.

Thanks to the Scottish Government’s learning estate investment programme, the City of Edinburgh Council is building what it hopes will be the first Passivhaus school, to replace the current Currie high school, which is in my constituency.

Does the cabinet secretary agree that investment in our school estate is vital in supporting our young people’s learning journey?

I very much agree with Gordon MacDonald. The investment in our school estate is absolutely key, which is exactly why we are moving forward with the third phase of the schools project to benefit from the £2 billion learning estate investment programme. That builds on the £1.8 billion in our Scotland’s schools for the future programme, which in itself delivered 117 new or refurbished learning facilities. So far, within the current programme, we have 37 projects across 23 local authorities delivering investment in our schools.

It has been nearly three months since, in lieu of the long-promised learning estate strategy, the Government released a frankly unacceptable 83-word answer to a Government-initiated question. Can the cabinet secretary tell us when a full plan and criteria will be published, and what assessment has been made of the impact of the Government’s delay on the proposed projects that are sitting on shelves across the country, including the Western Gateway primary school in Dundee?

There has been no delay in the project. I point out to members that the upkeep of the school estate is the obligation and responsibility of local authorities; the money provided by the Scottish Government is in addition to that.

We are working closely with our partners in Scottish local authorities to ensure that the criteria are discussed and agreed. The criteria for phase 3 will be agreed by the learning estate investment programme governance board, which is expected to include the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, local authority representative groups, the Scottish Government and the Scottish Futures Trust. As I have said in the past to Michael Marra and other members, if they wish to suggest criteria, we would welcome their contributions.

---

Refugees (Home Fee Status)

To ask the Scottish Government what plans it has to offer home fee status to refugees and other people displaced from Ukraine who wish to study in Scotland. (S6O-00881)

The First Minister has called on the United Kingdom Government to follow the European Union’s example by waiving all visa requirements for those resident in Ukraine who have been impacted by the Russian invasion and are looking to seek refuge in the UK.

Individuals who are granted refugee status by the Home Office and come to Scotland to live and study will be eligible for home tuition fee status and student support.

We are currently considering the impact on other people who have been displaced as a result of the crisis in Ukraine and wish to study in Scotland. We are taking forward discussions with the sector on the issue and are keen to find a solution where possible.

I welcome that commitment to address the situation. Refugees and family members who are studying in Ukraine will be coming within days, so everything that we do will be important.

What discussions has the Scottish Government had with universities and colleges to make sure that those students have the chance to keep studying and that they can be matched with appropriate degree and college classes, so that they do not miss out?

We all hope that the invasion will be over as soon as possible but, given that people’s homes and buildings have been destroyed across Ukraine, does the minister agree that helping those students to continue learning will be important in helping Ukraine to recover and rebuild in the future?

Yes, I do. Two things are at play: we must do everything we can to support the Ukrainian nationals who are already studying in Scotland—there are a number of them—and we must reach out and ensure that we support those who will come to Scotland in due course. Ms Boyack is right to point out that some will be here imminently.

I met all university and college principals on 2 March to discuss the current situation and how we can collectively respond to it. I was heartened to see the sector embracing that need and responding in the appropriate fashion. Collectively, that is what we will continue to do to ensure that we support students who are here and those who will come.

Will the Scottish Government take action to offer support to Ukrainian and Russian students who have been financially impacted by the war?

Kaukab Stewart mentioned Russian students. It is important that we bear in mind that not everyone in Russia and not every Russian student who is here supports the Russian regime. We must ensure that we reach out to them just as we reach out to the Ukrainian community in Scotland.

I go back to the previous answer that I gave. I have had that discussion with universities and colleges. There is financial support in hardship funds, which international students can access through the specific coronavirus funding that we have put in place in the first instance. However, we continue to have dialogue and discussion to ensure that, where we need to go further, we will do so.

I echo the minister’s comments on Russian students. I will ask a similar question. It is hoped that 3,000 refugees are on their way and it appears that most of them will be single parents with children. What discussions have been had with regard to the education that those children will need on their arrival in Scotland?

There has been concerted discussion with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities in relation to that. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills is leading on that rather than me, so I do not have the full detail of the discussions. However, if Martin Whitfield writes to us, I am sure that we will be able to give him more details.

---

University Principals (Meetings)

To ask the Scottish Government when it last met Scotland’s university principals. (S6O-00882)

As mentioned a moment ago, along with officials, I most recently met Scotland’s university principals on 2 March to discuss the Ukraine crisis, its impact on the sector and how students and staff are being supported.

When the minister talks to university principals, does he raise with them the universities pension dispute? Has he asked them why employers in Scotland have rejected the University and College Union’s compromise proposals, which would avoid an average 35 per cent cut in members’ pension guarantees? Has he asked them why they have made no attempt whatsoever to meaningfully engage with the UCU, with the result that, from next week, a further five days of industrial action will take place? Will he call on them to revoke those cuts, re-enter negotiations, show some leadership and settle once and for all the long-running dispute that they have consciously and intentionally provoked and prolonged?

With some rhetorical flourish, Richard Leonard asked me whether I engage with the sector on those matters. It might come as no surprise to him that I do. I have discussed the issue with the employers and unions alike. My clear expectation is that meaningful dialogue should take place on the basis and according to the principles of our fair work approach.

It is for the universities and the unions to resolve the dispute. I want to see minimal impact on students and staff alike. My sincere desire is that the parties engage in meaningful, proper dialogue and resolve the matter.

---

Apprentices (Real Living Wage)

To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to ensure that all apprentices are paid the real living wage. (S6O-00883)

As they are employees, apprentices’ wages are set by employers in line with the national minimum wage, which is a reserved matter for the United Kingdom Government.

Through our fair work policy, we encourage every employer to reward their staff fairly and, where possible, to pay at least the real living wage to workers of all ages, including apprentices. We have encouraged the UK Government to abolish the apprentice minimum wage rate and move towards the real living wage of £9.90 per hour for all workers.

We are fully committed to promoting fair work practices throughout Scotland, and we will continue to press the UK Government for the full set of powers over employment law so that we can fully deliver our fair work ambitions.

As the minister knows, the national minimum wage for apprenticeships is only £4.30 per hour if the apprentice is 19 or under or is in the first year of their apprenticeship. Does the Scottish Government agree with that? If not, will it make paying the full living wage a condition for employer support? Can the Scottish Government confirm that all apprenticeships in the public sector are paid the living wage?

As I said in my initial answer, I believe that the apprentice minimum wage rate should be abolished and that there should be a move towards decency in wages across the board, including for apprentices. Despite the amount being the minimum that employers should pay, when the last Scottish apprenticeship pay survey was undertaken, in 2018, the median levels at that stage were considerably above the statutory minimum. Therefore, we see employers paying above the minimum rate.

If we had responsibility for these matters in the Scottish Parliament, we could, of course, legislate for the changes that we seek to embed in relation to the living wage more generally. We will continue to push for that.

Apprentice minimum wages are not sufficient to enable apprentices to rent privately, but in rural, remote and island areas, such as Shetland, the logistics of daily commuting are not always an option. What steps can the Scottish Government take to ensure adequate provision of affordable accommodation for apprentices near to their place of work that is perhaps similar to student accommodation?

I understand the analogy involving students, but the situation is not entirely analogous, in that apprentices are employees and will not have quite the same living circumstances that students living in student accommodation might have. We will, of course, take on board any suggestion that is earnestly made, and I would be happy to consider that, but the real task is to get on with our extensive programme of social house building, which will benefit Ms Wishart’s constituency, just as it will benefit the constituencies of every member in the chamber.

It is important not just that our apprentices are appropriately paid and supported but that they have the opportunity to secure career pathways in the public sector. What steps is the Scottish Government taking to increase the number of apprentices in Scotland’s national health service, for example?

It is, of course, important that every sector plays its part in supporting apprenticeships. That is as true of the public sector as it is of the private sector.

I am very pleased to say that the national health service is a very active employer of apprentices. It uses the various frameworks across foundation apprenticeships, modern apprenticeships and graduate apprenticeships. Skills Development Scotland regularly engages with NHS boards. Indeed, during Scottish apprenticeship week, which was last week, the First Minister launched a new £3.4 million Scottish Government recruitment programme, which will mean that 150 apprentice pharmacy technicians will be trained and recruited across Scotland this year. The NHS is therefore certainly playing its part.

---

Headteachers (Argyll and Bute Council)

To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether the model to reduce the number of headteachers that is reportedly being proposed by Argyll and Bute Council will improve educational attainment. (S6O-00884)

I firmly believe that teachers and effective school leaders are the most important factors in improving children’s outcomes in our schools and that they are key to ensuring excellence and equity for all.

As Jackie Baillie is aware, the recruitment and deployment of headteachers is a matter for individual councils, based on local needs and circumstances. It would not be appropriate for the Scottish Government to interfere in school management decisions that are made by Argyll and Bute Council.

Irrespective of management structures, I would expect headteachers to be supported by their local authority to work in consultation with parents and young people to achieve the very best outcomes for learners.

Educational attainment is a matter for the Scottish Government, and the truth is that parents and teachers in Argyll and Bute are opposed to those plans. The proposals are—to be frank—not evidence based, because there is no evidence that reducing the number of headteachers will improve educational attainment. The plans are fundamentally about cuts to education. What discussions has the Scottish Government had with Argyll and Bute Council about those plans? Does the Scottish Government support that model, which simply cuts the number of headteachers and does nothing to improve the attainment for which it is responsible?

Jackie Baillie said in her question that the council is currently consulting on the proposals. I appreciate that parents, young people, teachers and headteachers in the local authority area hold very strong views, and I encourage them to take part in the consultation process. It is then for the local authority to pay very close attention to their responses.

Leadership is very much recognised as one of the most important aspects in the success of any school. Leaders at all levels have to be empowered, and those who empower others as part of that can take ownership of the learning in a school. We have a very strong track record of ensuring the highest quality of learning and teaching. That is what the Scottish Government would wish to see, and I am sure that that wish is shared by all councils across Scotland.

There are a number of supplementaries, and I intend to take them all.

As the cabinet secretary will be aware, it is Scottish National Party cuts that have led to councils considering the shared leadership model. In Labour-run North Lanarkshire, the council is looking at shared leadership for schools in the Chryston area. Does she share the concerns of parents there that that could lead to a drop in the quality of education?

The Scottish Government has been determined to deliver, and has delivered, a fair funding settlement for local government in the exceptionally difficult circumstances that we face, with cuts to our budget coming from the member’s United Kingdom Government.

Within that, however, I recognise the concerns in North Lanarkshire, which were recently brought to my attention by Fulton MacGregor. Again, I appreciate very much the concerns that are being raised by the young people, parents and staff in that area. Consultation is key here, as is the need for the local authority to have a genuine understanding of the strength of opinion on these issues. Of course, it is then a matter for the local authority to undertake the recruitment and retention of schoolteachers, including headteachers, in its area.

I am a bit surprised that the education secretary does not seem to be that bothered that we are creating superheads all over the country. Last month, I reported that that is happening in the east neuk of Fife, with plans for nine schools and one superhead, to which locals are very much opposed.

In addition to the national cuts, there is clearly a shortage of headteachers. A report from 2009 by the Government indicated—warned—that there was going to be a shortage of headteachers, but the Government does not seem to have done anything about it. Why is the education secretary so laid back, and why does she not have a plan for increasing the number of headteachers?

I pointed out to Mr Rennie the last time that we had this discussion in the chamber, and I point out again, that the Scottish Government holds very dearly to the evidence that effective leadership in our schools is key to ensuring the highest possible standards in our education sector. It is for local authorities to make decisions about what that leadership looks like, in consultation with parents in the local area.

I appreciate that there is concern in a number of local authority areas about the decisions that local authorities are taking on that, and I am paying very close attention to that, in particular given the importance that we place on leadership in our schools. I point out to Mr Rennie that, in addition, we have the headteacher recruitment working group, which met on 28 January—

It is not a working group—it is a not-working group.

It is a not-working group.

—and it is currently discussing these issues to ensure that, if any further progress needs to be made, it will be.

Before I call the next member who wishes to ask a supplementary, I ask members to show a bit of courtesy and respect, please. If questions are asked, please listen to the answers. I think that the members know who I am talking about.

The cabinet secretary says that she is paying very close attention to the issue. I think that not only members in the chamber but, more importantly, parents and pupils across the country would like to hear directly from the cabinet secretary whether she thinks that it is important that schools have a single leader—a headteacher—who can build the learning environment for the people in that school and be a leader in the community. We are seeing such proposals across the country, and vague expressions that leadership might be important are not enough. What is the cabinet secretary’s personal position? Does she think that it is right that we have individual headteachers in our schools?

The Government’s position on that is something that I have made clear again and again during question time today. It is that leadership in our schools is exceptionally important. The Government has demonstrated that over a number of years with the importance that we have placed on the role of headteachers and on the empowerment of headteachers within that.

If Mr Marra and other members who usually tell me not to interfere in local authority matters are asking me to dictate to local authorities what happens in every school across the country, let us be very clear that that is what they are asking me to do and what the implications are of that. In the meantime, I will continue to ensure that we work closely with our local authority partners, so that they understand the importance that the Scottish Government places on leadership in our schools. We will continue to work with local authorities on that basis.

Question 8 is from Gillian Mackay, who is joining us remotely.

---

South Lanarkshire College (Governance)

To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking in light of reports of concerns regarding governance at South Lanarkshire College. (S6O-00885)

The Scottish Funding Council is responsible for investigating any potential issues around college governance. Following an independent review of governance at South Lanarkshire College, the SFC continues to work closely with the regional strategic body to ensure that arrangements are in place to secure good governance, sound leadership and positive outcomes for students.

Ministers’ paramount interest is safeguarding the quality of learning at South Lanarkshire College and high standards of governance are crucial to ensuring that. The SFC will continue to provide updates to the Scottish Government as required.

A number of colleges still have not implemented the nationally agreed dispute resolution process. What steps is the Scottish Government taking to ensure that every college—[Inaudible.]

We will see whether we can get Ms Mackay back. It is not looking too promising. Just give us a few seconds to see whether anything is likely to happen—or not.

I do not know whether the cabinet secretary heard enough to make a stab at answering. I think that we will have to ask Ms Mackay to write to the cabinet secretary with her supplementary and the cabinet secretary can then answer it. I apologise to Ms Mackay and to members in the chamber.

That concludes portfolio question time.