Skip to main content

Language: English / Gàidhlig

Loading…
Chamber and committees

Plenary, 26 Sep 2002

Meeting date: Thursday, September 26, 2002


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Prime Minister (Meetings)

I call Kenny MacAskill. [Members: "Oh."]

1. Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):

In view of the Pavlovian response, I assure the chamber that I am simply keeping the seat warm for John Swinney until next Thursday—a bit like the way in which the First Minister is keeping his seat warm for John Swinney until May.

To ask the First Minister when he next plans to meet the Prime Minister and what issues he intends to raise. (S1F-2110)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

First, I welcome Eric Clarke, the former MP for Midlothian, to the gallery. As a former general secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers Scotland, he was a pivotal figure in the campaign for this Parliament. I welcome his first appearance in the gallery.

I talk regularly with the Prime Minister and I intend to meet him during the course of next week. The last time that we met, we discussed the importance of education, health, crime and growing the Scottish economy. I expect to discuss those matters the next time that we meet.

Mr MacAskill:

Is the First Minister aware of the report on tourism by Professor Terry Stevens, which was commissioned by the Parliament, given the recent dramatic fall in visitor numbers? Professor Stevens said:

"Scotland will not be able to control this dynamic unless its tourism chiefs engage with the low-cost airlines … Tourism equals travel and if people cannot get to a place then they will not come."

Does the First Minister agree?

The First Minister:

It is important that we establish the facts. Visitor numbers in Scotland this year are increasing. We have turned round from the tourism difficulties of 2000. It is vital that we do so by investing heavily in marketing, visitor product and transport infrastructure and routes. Low-cost airlines are operating out of airports across Scotland. It is important that they do so, but it is also important that they pay their fair share for doing so. We want to attract low-cost airlines to Scotland, but they should pay their fair share of airline and airport costs.

Mr MacAskill:

I am surprised that the First Minister is so blasé. Since the Administration came to power, the number of overseas visitors has gone down by more than a quarter and their spend has gone down by a third. Professor Stevens says that low-cost flights are critical. The First Minister will be aware that Ryanair has sought to fly into Inverness. An analysis of airport charges by Cranfield University found Inverness to be the most expensive airport not in Scotland, nor in the UK, but in the whole of Europe. The First Minister is the sole shareholder in that airport. Why will he not address the urgent need? Will he get the charges reduced and let the flights take off at his airport?

The First Minister:

Such matters are properly negotiated between the airport authorities and the companies involved. It is not the responsibility of the Parliament—I find it astonishing that a party that regularly condemns private companies and private profit believes that it is—to instruct or even allow Government agencies in Scotland to bend over and bow down to private companies that want to exploit low charges at our airports. It is important that companies pay a fair share for the services that they enjoy. That should apply to Ryanair as much as to any other company.

I have never criticised private profit or private companies. Professor Stevens says that low-cost carriers—[Interruption.]

Order. Let us hear the question.

Mr MacAskill:

Professor Stevens says that low-cost carriers are the key. Ryanair will not fly into the First Minister's airport. EasyJet will not expand at his airport. Even the chief executive of his airport wants those flights to come into Inverness but says that he cannot have them. Will the First Minister take action at his airport? Will he reduce the charges and let the Highland economy take off? The responsibility cannot be buck passed to anyone else. It is his airport, they are his charges and it is his responsibility.

The First Minister:

Those are serious issues. People regularly ask, "What difference has the Parliament made in Scotland?" One of the areas in which the Parliament and devolution have made a difference is in the tripling of subsidy to Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd since 1999. The increase in subsidy has made a difference to maintaining and improving services not just in Inverness, but throughout the Highlands and Islands. Serious solutions such as that will bring about sustainable, long-term improvements in our air services in Scotland.

We do not need more slogans in Scotland; we need serious solutions. It has been quite a week for slogans. We have heard some new ones and perhaps this is another example of the Scottish National Party raiding our pockets and reducing our prosperity with their redundant old policies. The good news, however, is that the SNP will be rejected outright by the people.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he plans to raise. (S1F-2117)

I speak regularly with the secretary of state concerning matters of importance to Scotland and plan to meet with her again tomorrow.

David McLetchie:

I hope that the First Minister and the secretary for state might talk about some of the Executive's spending proposals that we discussed last week in Parliament. Will the First Minister confirm that the Executive's commitment in "Building a Better Scotland: Spending Proposals 2003-2006" to

"maintain the capacity of the police service"

means that there are no plans to increase the number of serving police officers in Scotland over the next three years?

The First Minister:

The specific number of serving police officers in Scotland is a matter for chief constables in their budgets. The commitment is absolutely clear—we have achieved record levels of police officers in Scotland. We will maintain those numbers—they will increase and decrease slightly over time, but they will always be at those record levels. We will ensure that more of those officers spend more time in the community, more time catching criminals, less time in courts, less time transferring prisoners to and from prison and less time on other duties for which they should not have been responsible in the past.

David McLetchie:

I hear the First Minister's answer, but I am afraid that the situation is not as simple as that. The First Minister must acknowledge that the Executive has been heaping more responsibilities on to police officers, such as the requirement to take victim statements and to monitor the growing number on the sex offenders register, which the Deputy Minister for Justice seems to believe will rise by over 5,000 in the years ahead. Does the First Minister recognise that those extra responsibilities need extra resources? Will he give a commitment to provide sufficient funding to put more police officers on the streets in accordance with the wishes and needs of communities? Will he make that the priority that it should be but is not at present?

The First Minister:

There is an absolute commitment. If Mr McLetchie has read the document—I assume from his comments that he has—he will understand that that commitment has been driven right through those three years of budgets to secure increased resources to deliver for and improve the criminal justice service in Scotland.

It is also important that we change practice. It is my strongly held view that the people of Scotland welcome the fact that victim statements will be taken properly by the right officers. They welcome the fact that there is a sex offenders list and that that list includes more and more people who should be on it. They will also welcome the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, which is currently passing through Parliament. It includes provisions that will take police officers away from duties that they previously had to carry out and it will get them back on the beat in the community. Only one party in Parliament voted against that bill at stage 1—the Scottish Conservative party.

Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):

Has the First Minister or the secretary of state had the opportunity to discuss with the Dundee-based company ABB its decision to halt the manufacture of electricity transformers and distributors in the city with the loss of almost 200 skilled jobs? If so, will the First Minister reassure me that they will both use all their power and influence to persuade that company that, if, as it admits, it can continue to operate successfully and smartly in high-cost centres in Italy, Sweden and Finland, it can and must do the same in Dundee?

The First Minister:

I share Mr McAllion's disappointment over the announcement earlier this week about ABB. Although I have not spoken personally to the company, our officials are—as Mr McAllion might expect—seeking a meeting with the company to discuss the situation and any action that we can take.


Fluoridation

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Executive will assess the potential impact of fluoridation on health. (S1F-2126)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

"Towards Better Oral Health in Children: A Consultation Document on Children's Oral Health in Scotland", which we published on Tuesday, outlines the extensive scientific assessment that has been undertaken into the potential impact of fluoridation on health. However, improving children's oral health is about much more, which is why we are giving free toothbrushes and toothpaste to pre-school children, expanding the supervision of toothbrushing in nursery schools and targeting the recruitment and retention of dentists as a priority.

Sarah Boyack:

I welcome the First Minister's response and the commitment to tackle children's dental health. Will he consider seriously the grave concerns that many members have about the impact of fluoridation on public health? In particular, will he consider the research that shows a significant correlation between fluoridation and increases in hip fractures and osteosarcoma? Instead of focusing on fluoridation, will the First Minister focus on supporting healthy eating initiatives and targeting action through health visitors, nurseries and schools?

The First Minister:

I hope that there is a consensus in the Parliament and in Scotland that we need to pursue healthy eating initiatives. There is a wide range of programmes and projects. Some of them are already making a difference and others should be expanded. It is important that we have a proper consultation on fluoridation. The issue has been around in Scotland for a long time and it is time to have a debate and to make a decision one way or the other in the next few years. I agree with Sarah Boyack that fluoridation is not the only issue. It is not the only issue in the consultation document. The other programmes will carry on while the debate on fluoridation continues.


Local Government<br />(Proportional Representation)

To ask the First Minister whether the introduction of a proportional representation system of voting for local government elections will improve the governance of councils. (S1F-2116)

Of course it will.

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Some may say that and some may not. Improving the governance of councils in Scotland is about more than electoral reform. The Deputy First Minister and I believe that it is right for the new Executive after May 2003 to be able to decide on the next steps on those important issues.

Mr Harding:

I am sure that the First Minister's Labour council colleagues will feel reassured by that when they lose their seats. Does the First Minister believe that councils would be better run by a large influx of Scottish National Party councillors, given that, according to research, the SNP would be the greatest beneficiary of the single transferable vote system?

The First Minister:

I put it on record earlier this year that I do not believe that the Parliament should establish an electoral system for local government simply to suit any one political party, which includes the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party. I stand by that comment firmly. The electoral system is far too important for party politics. As was revealed the last time that we debated the issue in Parliament, the SNP has repeatedly stressed in its private correspondence that it is interested in the issue only for party-political advantage. The SNP's actions and attitude to the issue are despicable. We must have a proper debate that puts party politics second and the interests of Scottish local government first.

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):

Will the First Minister nevertheless accept that there is a considerable democratic deficit in many council areas, where the opposition has been largely wiped out not by the vote of the people, but by the bizarre operation of the first-past-the-post system? Can the First Minister think of a democratic principle that justifies one party in Glasgow having 74 of 79 seats but only half of the vote? Is he committed to changing the system to revitalise local government?

The First Minister:

On many occasions, I have stressed the view that there is a legitimate point to make about the difference between the percentage of votes that parties receive and the number of councillors from those parties who are elected in some areas. However, another legitimate point of view says that single-member wards whose representation is decided by a first-past-the-post system give direct accountability for individual councillors, which is important for the electorate in those areas. The debate is a legitimate one with two legitimate points of view. We must be open and frank in discussing them.

Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):

The Cabinet has agreed to publish a draft bill on PR for local government, although PR is not the stated policy of the Executive. Can the First Minister explain why taxpayers' money is being used to pay for the legal, civil service and drafting costs of a draft bill on an issue that is not the policy of the Executive? Does he agree that the cost of the proposed draft bill should be met by the Labour party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats?

The First Minister:

This situation occurs all the time in the Parliament. The SNP manifesto calls for road tolls in Edinburgh, but when those tolls are going to happen, it criticises them. The SNP calls for tax cuts for Scottish business, but then it proposes increased spending that it will pay for from tax increases. Now, the SNP is campaigning for proportional representation, but it is criticising a proposed bill that might help to bring that about. If we are to have the confidence of the people of Scotland, there must be some consistency among all the political parties, not just three of them. I ask the SNP to grow up, please, and to keep the same policy from one week to the next.


Economic Growth (Population Change)

To ask the First Minister what impact population change will have on economic growth. (S1F-2124)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

I believe that a growing population will contribute to the higher growth rate that we need for Scotland. We wish to retain the talent that we have, attract former Scots back home and be open to welcome people from new cultures, nationalities and backgrounds.

Karen Gillon:

I thank the First Minister for his answer. I am doing my bit to grow the population. Does he accept that we will attract more people back to Scotland only if it is a welcoming and inclusive Scotland, where racism has no place in society? Will he tell us what role the Executive's recently announced anti-racism strategy will have in developing such a Scotland?

The First Minister:

It is vital that the Scotland that we show is a Scotland of which we can be proud. If we, as a nation, are to be successful in the global economy, we must show ourselves to be a nation that is welcoming without prejudice, racism or sectarianism and that can live, survive and prosper in the modern world. I hope that this week's anti-racism campaign—which I trust will have the support of all members—will allow us to stand proudly before the world and say that Scotland is a place where prejudice is a thing of the past.

Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):

Does the First Minister agree that the best way in which to increase Scotland's population is to encourage private enterprise to prosper, thus creating the jobs, wealth and security that give people the confidence to stay in Scotland and plan families?

That is one way in which to encourage a growing population.

Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP):

Can the First Minister assure me that, as part of the programme to make Scotland a welcoming place and to ensure that we engage properly with the global technology marketplace, we will ensure that people in the far east are aware that they will be as welcome in Scotland as many of them believe themselves to be in silicon valley? I was astounded to discover that people in the far east prefer to go there because they think that it is a more welcoming place than Scotland.

The First Minister:

That is not my experience. In my time in the Parliament, not just as the First Minister, I have met many people who have come to this country, been welcomed and had good experiences as a result. I have met a minority who have not and that is what the anti-racism campaign is all about. We must ensure that people who visit this country, who come to live here and take up citizenship, who come to study here or who trade with us believe that this is a country in which they will not experience prejudice. That is our challenge and I hope that we are about to meet it.


Child Poverty

To ask the First Minister what concerns the Scottish Executive has regarding child poverty. (S1F-2121)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

I want to live in a Scotland that is full of opportunities and I want those opportunities to be open to all children. That is why we are investing in, among other measures, sure start Scotland, a child care strategy and the new community schools.

Given that one in three children in resources-rich Scotland lives in poverty and that we have the third-highest child poverty rate of 25 countries after five years of Labour rule, is the First Minister not ashamed?

The First Minister:

First, I am pleased that the number of children in Scotland in absolute poverty has dropped so dramatically since 1997. I am disappointed that the number in relative poverty has not dropped more quickly and further. However, I acknowledge that that is because family incomes, particularly in middle-income families, have increased and prospered since 1997.

We must get the balance right. We want to ensure that ordinary working families in Scotland have an opportunity to grow their family budget and have the sort of successful family life that most of us would want them to have. We also want to ensure that those who start with disadvantage in whatever community in Scotland—rural or urban—have the opportunity to grow out of that disadvantage, take up opportunities, educational and otherwise, and have good health and a decent job. We are best equipped to succeed in that if we work in close partnership with the United Kingdom Government. If we work together, we will do the job well.

Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (Ind):

Some areas of the east end of Glasgow have pockets where child poverty goes up to 90 cent, which shames the nation. Some of those children were, with their parents, victims of the 30 July flood. The UK Government was good enough to give £100,000 to the Czech Republic flood victims, particularly because of the children. However, the First Minister's Executive and the UK Government have given nothing to the east end victims. Will he please now think again because of the children of the east end of Glasgow?

The First Minister:

First, I am sure that Dorothy-Grace Elder will know that the minister responsible is developing a package of responses that will be of assistance in Glasgow. I also want to say—I hope that this is not misrepresented or taken lightly—that a situation in which people in eastern Europe are dying because of flooding is a serious one and it is right and proper that Britain fulfils its international obligations to help out.

Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Standing orders state clearly that the Presiding Officer should treat all members of Parliament equally, but the standing orders seem to be regularly ignored during First Minister's question time. Invariably, John Swinney is number 1 and David McLetchie is number 2. They usually take up at least half or more than half of the time allocated for First Minister's question time.

Today, John Swinney was not here and I noticed that the substitute, number 3 from the SNP benches, was put into the number 1 position. I also note that earlier the Presiding Officer chose Phil Gallie to ask a supplementary question despite the fact that the member was not even in the chamber to ask the question that he had lodged—indeed, he withdrew his question. What is going on?

The Presiding Officer:

On the second point, I properly called Mr Gallie on an earlier question. He sent me a note explaining why he was withdrawing a later one. I do not have foresight; I was not to know that he was not going to be here later. However, his question was perfectly valid.

On the more general question, it is for the chamber to consider, as we move towards the end of this session of Parliament, whether the existing question time structure is a good one. However, the structure has been operating for three and a half years and I am surprised that Mr Canavan has just discovered that questions 1 and 2 are usually given to the leaders of the Opposition parties. That is the agreement.

I think that the leaders of the Opposition parties will not mind my saying that I have implored them on many occasions to keep their questions short to allow plenty of time for others to get in. In fact, we did well today. Not everyone was called, but nearly everyone who asked was called.

That is my answer at the moment. However, the structure of question time is a matter for the chamber to consider. I have views on how question time might be improved.

Dennis Canavan:

With respect, Presiding Officer, it is not a matter for the chamber at this particular time. It is a matter for you to abide by the standing orders that have been agreed by the Parliament. The standing orders state clearly that you should treat all members equally.

The Presiding Officer:

That is true, but there is a well-known saying that, although everyone is equal, some are more equal than others. That has always been the case with party leaders, as Mr Canavan knows from his previous incarnation as well as his present one. I am quite open to suggestions for change, but that is the system that we have used and I am not proposing to change it.