Crown Post Offices
The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S4M-05708, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on the future of Scotland’s Crown post offices. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament condemns proposals by Post Office Limited to close five Crown post offices in Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Stornoway, Perth and Alloa, moving them to become franchises in retail outlets at alternative locations; regards this as potentially dismantling part of the established post office network, which may result in a loss of service for the public; is concerned for the continued employment of post office staff and considers that the proposal will have a damaging effect on the already fragile health of town centres and high streets; praises the existing Crown post office network in Scotland for an invaluable service to the community, and acknowledges calls for these proposals to be dropped.
17:38
Although control over postal services presently remains reserved to Westminster, concern about the shape of those services is uppermost in the minds of many of my constituents in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth and, indeed, of people across the country. It is therefore right that this Parliament has the chance to debate such matters, and I begin by thanking the members who supported my motion and enabled it to be discussed this evening.
Although my interest in the matter arises because the post office branch in Cumbernauld town centre is one of those affected, the motion notes that other branches are affected, including that in East Kilbride, in Linda Fabiani’s constituency. I lodged the motion with her support; I view her very much as the co-sponsor of tonight’s debate and look forward to hearing from her later.
I thank members who will participate in the debate. That participation is, doubtless, because the Post Office’s plans might affect their areas, like Linda Fabiani’s area and my area. I look forward to hearing what they have to say.
I understand that representatives of the Communication Workers Union who represent postal workers are in the public gallery. I welcome them to the Parliament and congratulate them on their Crown post offices campaign, which is represented by the badge that I am very happy to wear. I thank them for meeting me previously to discuss the matter. In the interests of fairness and transparency, I should also thank the management of Post Office Ltd for meeting me.
Cumbernauld and Kilsyth has already experienced changes to the shape of its post offices in recent years. I was hugely disappointed when the Post Office decided to close its branches in Banton, Queenzieburn and Kildrum. Those closures came in the face of widespread local opposition, as communities value their local post offices and recognise that they are an important component in the social fabric of their area. The loss of those three branches was hugely contentious, and I very much regret their removal.
I mention that to demonstrate that the latest proposal is not isolated; rather, it is the latest in a line of alterations that, it could be argued, have led to a diminution of local post office services. I also mention it because it relates directly to the current proposal, to which I will return.
It is important to be clear about the issue. The latest proposal is not identical to previous proposals on closures that I have mentioned, at least in respect of Cumbernauld. This time, there is at least a commitment to retaining a branch in the area, but that does not mean that concerns that have arisen from the proposal do not remain.
There are some 373 Crown post offices throughout the United Kingdom. They are branches of the Post Office that are run directly by it rather than by a franchisee. The Post Office is talking about franchising some 70 Crown post offices throughout the UK. Five branches in Scotland are included in the programme: the aforementioned branches in Cumbernauld and East Kilbride and the Crown post offices in Perth, Alloa and Stornoway. The reassurance that a branch will at least be retained at those sites, albeit with a franchisee, is tempered by a number of concerns that have been expressed by the CWU and others who are worried about the proposals.
First, there is the impact on staff who work in the Crown post offices that are under threat. They might be able to move under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations to any new franchisee. The other options are redeployment elsewhere or a compromise agreement that involves them leaving the company. Given that the options for redeployment seem to be diminished by a reduction in the Crown post office network, it is hard to see where they might be deployed to. That and the fact that some staff might not want to TUPE to any new employer might result in a compromise agreement being viewed as the most attractive option for staff, which would mean a loss of experienced and well-trained members of staff in the post office network.
From my meeting with a representative of the CWU, I understand that Crown post office staff are provided with regular training to ensure that they are equipped with the necessary skills to deal with customers’ requests for assistance. It is unclear that any franchisee will continue that rigorous training, and that could reduce the skills sets of the staff and diminish the post office customer experience.
There are concerns about the experience of franchising Crown post offices thus far. Some 85 such post offices were transferred to franchise holders in 2007. In November last year, Consumer Focus published a report that assessed the level of service, accessibility and queues at high street post offices. The report, which is entitled “Are you being served? Service, accessibility and queues at High Street post offices”, demonstrated that Crown post offices had performed the best on accessibility, shown the most significant improvements since 2009 and scored high on the quality of service.
On the other hand, the report said that one of the franchise holders, which had secured the overwhelming majority of the offices that were transferred in 2007, was the worst performer on queue times, and it scored badly on the quality of service and accessibility. In other words, the Crown post offices were performing better than the former Crown branches that had been transferred to a franchisee. That raises a clear concern about the likely impact on the customer experience.
There are also concerns about where any franchisee might locate one of the five Crown post offices in Scotland that are encompassed in the proposal. Might it relocate a branch to a place that is less convenient for those who use it? Might the premises not be as well set out as the current premises that are used?
The location is important for Cumbernauld. I mentioned that Kildrum post office was closed previously; part of the rationale for that was that the Cumbernauld town centre branch was located close by. However, that branch might now be moved. If it ends up being further away than the location of the old Kildrum post office, that will undermine the case that was made when that post office was closed. I believe that that would mean that people in my area had been fed a false premise to justify in part the Kildrum closure.
I remind members that I set out the importance of being clear about the issue. To be clear, the proposals might come to nothing, and perhaps no potential franchisee will be identified for any of the branches, which would mean that no transfer could take place. I will certainly be interested to see where in Cumbernauld could be identified as an alternative location for the current branch, as it is not immediately clear where that might be or who might be interested in it.
Let me also be clear with the management of Post Office Ltd that, if the proposals are advanced, the concerns that have been raised by the CWU, by many local people in the areas affected, by me and, doubtless, by other members in the debate must be listened to and taken seriously. The people who use Scotland’s Crown post offices will expect nothing less.
17:46
A great deal of uncertainty hangs over the future of the post office network in Scotland and across the UK. We must acknowledge that much of the uncertainty arises from a sense that the Government is not entirely forthcoming about its intentions for the service’s future. The Government said that post offices should be the front office for Government, but its record is one of reducing services and failing to provide the bankable contracts and firm guarantees that would put the Post Office on a secure footing. Given that context, I completely understand why trade unions, small businesses and service users are so concerned about the latest proposed changes, which will put Crown post offices at risk.
The Post Office states that network transformation is not about closures but about franchising. However, if franchising means that Crown post offices move out of key town centre locations and that the overall level of service is reduced further, to be frank, I worry about the consequences for communities. Franchising of post offices is still uncommon, but it is by no means new. In 2011, Consumer Focus reported that franchised post offices were among the worst performing in the country on queue times and scored badly on measures of service, quality and accessibility. In addition, what happens if a franchisee finds that the post office is no longer commercially attractive? Can it just pull out and leave behind it a gap in service?
Neither the Government nor the Post Office has done anything to suggest that it has learned from experience or put in place measures to stop a new commercial operator downgrading or closing its service later. However, that could happen in any of the 70 outlets that are affected, which account for 20 per cent of the Crown network and 770 post office workers across the UK. Those workers have already taken industrial action in opposition to the policy and to defend their terms and conditions.
I will focus on what the changes will mean for local communities and in particular for our town centres. I do not need to tell anyone about the difficulties that our town centres face, which are not just the acute pressures associated with a retail slump and low aggregate demand but long-term pressures such as the rise of supermarkets, the growth in out-of-town retail and, more recently, the shift to online shopping. It is incumbent on the Post Office as a state-owned company to take an equally long-term view of how it adapts to change, so that it does not just respond to recent developments but shapes services for the future.
It has been disappointing to see local authorities, public bodies and state-owned enterprises give up on town centre buildings and move to out-of-town locations, with no regard to the economic footprint that they leave behind. I hope that ministers in the Scottish and UK Governments can discourage that practice, especially when big employers or busy services are concerned.
In East Kilbride, where I live, the post office is always busy and it attracts customers of all ages and backgrounds into our town centre because of the essential service that it provides. In doing so, the post office is not just proving its own viability but supporting other retailers, too.
If that service were to be curtailed in any way or relocated to a less central location—even a busy supermarket—an important part of the community and the town centre that we all value would be displaced. The same can be said for post offices in other parts of my region and other parts of the country where the position of local town centres is far more fragile. The Post Office should be part of the solution to town centre regeneration and not part of the problem.
In recent years, there has been a great deal of restructuring in the Post Office and the Royal Mail to secure the service for the future. Let me be clear that I am not against reform and that I accept that the Post Office must strengthen its financial position. However, franchising will in effect lead to the closure of major stand-alone post offices in town centres and high streets and will set back town centres when we should be trying to regenerate those vital public places and take them forward.
I join the CWU in appealing for the United Kingdom Government to end its ambivalence towards our post offices and support the service, which is vital to many of our communities.
17:51
I congratulate my colleague Jamie Hepburn on pushing for and securing this debate on the future of Scotland’s Crown post offices. As we have heard, the plans to close five Crown post offices with a view to selling them as franchises in retail outlets pose a real threat to the service that is provided to customers in the areas that would be affected. Those areas include two in Mid Scotland and Fife—Perth and Alloa. My colleague Keith Brown hopes to speak about the Alloa Crown post office, as it falls within his constituency, so I will focus on the one in Perth, although I put on the record the fact that I share Keith Brown’s concerns about the situation with the Alloa office, which he has expressed. I am sure that he will expand on those concerns this evening.
In Perth, my colleague Pete Wishart, the Scottish National Party member of Parliament for Perth and North Perthshire, has been working with local representatives of the CWU to set up a public meeting, which is to be held on Thursday 2 May at 7 pm in the A K Bell library. I hope that there will be good attendance on the night. I welcome to the public gallery representatives from the CWU. I am pleased that they have made an effort to come and hear the debate, because I know how worried CWU members are about the possible effects on their livelihoods.
The franchising of the Crown post offices is a worrying development that seriously undermines the credibility of the Post Office as a national service provider. The treatment of members of staff and the uncertainty that is being created are not good enough. I believe that the proposal cloaks a restriction in services in the guise of improvements for the customer. The reality is that no one will truly benefit from the plans—they are simply the next stage in the ideologically driven privatisation of the postal service.
Extended opening hours might be welcomed, but not if there is a concomitant reduction in the services that are available to the customer. It is one thing for sub-post offices to supplement their income from postal services, particularly in rural settings where they might be the only retail outlet in a village, but I am talking about a Crown post office on one of the main thoroughfares through the city of Perth. Frankly, people should not have to struggle past tins of beans to renew their passport. Real concerns have been raised about proper access and convenience for the elderly, the disabled and parents with buggies.
When the Post Office announced its intention to close or franchise 20 per cent of the remaining network of Crown post offices across the UK, fears were immediately raised about job security for the 800 or so people who work in those offices, along with uncertainty for the future of other Crown post offices. I am not convinced that the Post Office will be successful in securing the franchise opportunities that it seems to think exist, because to me the scheme bears all the hallmarks of something that has been drawn up by someone in an office somewhere who has a numerical target to hit and a map, but not a single clue about the actual circumstances of the post offices in Perth and elsewhere.
The post office premises on Perth’s South Street are superbly situated because they are in the centre of downtown Perth and are well frequented. Anyone who has used the service or walked by at its busiest time will see that, even with all the counters staffed, the queues can be lengthy because of the number of people who want to transact their business there. It is difficult to see how that situation can be improved. Indeed, the service would probably deteriorate in smaller premises.
No Post Office staff should be left in this situation. They should be allowed to get on with what they do best, which is serving the customers—the people of Perth—with a full range of Post Office services. That is what the people of the fair city of Perth want.
17:55
I thank Jamie Hepburn for bringing the debate to the chamber and for the measured tone of his speech. The first debate that we had on post offices was brought by a colleague of mine, David Mundell, whose aunt ran the local post office in Moffat. That was many moons ago.
Although tonight’s debate is specifically on Crown post offices, it is worth congratulating its partner, the Royal Mail, on its excellent campaign called save our Royal Mail, which is now helping to reverse loss-making elements of its business and bringing it back to break even or into profit. As an MSP who represents the Highlands and Islands, I commend the one price universal service that is enshrined in law and would need a majority vote in the House of Commons and House of Lords to overturn it.
When I read the motion, I thought there was a contradiction in it because, in the same sentence, it talks about closing five Crown post offices and moving them to retail outlets. However, Jamie Hepburn’s speech was very clear about retaining the services.
Crown post office branches operated at a loss of £46 million in 2011-12. Any move to retain the full service and reduce overheads will release taxpayers’ money to fund other essential services. As other members have said, the programme is not a closure programme. In fact, the coalition Government is investing £1.34 billion up to 2015 to sustain the post office network.
As an MSP for the Highlands and Islands, I would like to focus on the Stornoway post office. When I read about what is happening in the Stornoway Gazette, I contacted Post Office Ltd, which confirmed that, even if it is put out to franchise, the Stornoway office will remain a Crown post office. There is a commitment that there will be no compulsory redundancies and the opportunity to move to a retail outlet has not yet been advertised. If no retail partner is found, the post office will remain where it is and operate as it is. It costs £1.57 for every pound of income that it generates.
When I heard the announcement that the post office at Stornoway had been identified as one that could be partnered with a retailer, I—as Annabelle Ewing did—contacted the Post Office to ask how that would affect the services that are on offer. The response confirmed that the same range of Government services will be available. The only possible change will be around financial services; a new retail outlet such as the Co-op might choose to provide its own financial products instead of the Post Office’s ones. Apart from that, the service will be a like-for-like service, if not an identical one.
We all need to question our support for the post office network. When I looked at the motion, I wondered how often I use a post office and how I could use it more. I do my road tax online, pay my television licence by annual direct debit, and buy stamps at retail outlets. I use the post office for financial products, currency exchange, and to send parcels. The days of standing in a queue for the family allowance have changed and Post Office Ltd is now modernising to adapt to those changes.
17:59
First, let me say that standing in queues for post office services is something that many people in East Kilbride do every day of the week. The post office provides an absolutely necessary service for some people, including those who are not online, to whom we owe that as an obligation.
I thank Jamie Hepburn for lodging the motion for debate. I also thank the Post Office representative and the CWU’s Liam Murphy who—separately, I might add—met me and gave me some super information. One point about the Post Office’s stuff is that, interesting though the material might be, the language that it uses is very different from the reality. In any information that the Post Office has ever sent to me or any other MSP, the word “franchise” is never used. Instead, the Post Office talks just about what a wonderful service will be maintained, with no mention of the potential loss of services.
East Kilbride post office has 14 members of staff, covering approximately eight positions, with a combined experience of 280 years—280 years of service. I was privileged to meet some of those staff on Friday, when they were campaigning against the proposals. What struck me was that every member of the public to whom the staff explained why the post office was shut that afternoon was fully supportive of maintaining East Kilbride town centre’s post office as a Crown post office.
On language, I think that it is also interesting that the Post Office’s note about the vote in favour of the first planned industrial action states:
“The result is therefore based on the votes of 68 per cent of Post Office Crown network staff, with the overall vote ... equating to 60 per cent of those staff. ... The result shows that a significant proportion of our staff”
back our plans. Hey! That reminded me of the 1979 referendum. It is absolute sophistry. It is ridiculous.
The Post Office says that there will be no redundancies, but that is only because the union won that argument in a court case. The Post Office talks about a compromise agreement costing up to £20 million—or about £3,500 per person—as if that is hugely generous. For 280 years’ combined service, that is not hugely generous at all to people who have shown commitment and dedication all those years. The Post Office also says that it could redeploy people, but for the staff in East Kilbride their nearest Crown post office is in Motherwell or Glasgow.
That is difficult enough for staff, but it is also not right that residents of Scotland’s largest town would not have access to a Crown post office. Many franchisees do very well and give excellent service, but I contend that in a city or large town the franchise outlets should be complementary to the Crown post office. I have been told that, on more than one occasion lately, customers have been directed to the big post office in the town centre when they have had queries that proved to be difficult.
As we have heard, surveys have shown that the Crown post offices are top for service. That is due to the staff’s dedication and commitment to on-going and regular training. That service to the public is becoming more and more important in the hard times that people are currently going through. With the move into financial services, I understand that the Post Office intends to trial current accounts—somewhere in England, initially—so it is more important than ever that we maintain good staff training.
I was particularly interested to hear that, after shutting two Crown post offices in Newcastle, the Post Office now says that a Crown post office is needed there. That is proof that there is a difference between a Crown post office and a franchise post office. Even if the Post Office wants to save money by ditching dedicated premises, why, rather than franchise to a supermarket, cannot it look at doing a deal to rent space while maintaining that Crown status?
Finally, we have heard that the Post Office says that its Crown post offices run at a £40 million loss. That has been scaled down from the £70 million that was originally reported. Mary Scanlon said that, in the stuff that she looked at, the Crown post offices were said to run at a loss of £46 million. It looks to me as though that figure is coming down all the time, so it may be that we will get to the reality.
This matters very much. I hope that, when a public meeting is arranged in East Kilbride—which I know lots of people will attend—I am able to be there, too, because I feel passionately and strongly about the issue. A Crown post office is a service that people deserve, and the people of East Kilbride certainly deserve it.
18:04
I am grateful to Jamie Hepburn for securing a members’ business debate on the future of Scotland’s Crown post offices, and I am pleased to have been given the chance to speak about an important issue for my constituency. It would be true to say that my constituents are bewildered and bemused by what is happening in the Post Office.
This is not the first time that post offices in my constituency have been under threat. In 2008, the then Government presided over the closure of a number of post offices in the local area, including those at the University of Stirling, at Fairyburn in Alloa and at Kinnesswood in Kinross-shire. I can perhaps give some encouragement to my colleagues by noting that the Post Office was forced to abandon plans to close the Crook of Devon post office when I and the local community argued successfully that that would be completely unacceptable.
The support for the closure programme under the previous Government in 2005 and 2008 gave the green light for post office closures then and set the stage for the UK coalition Government’s support for the current proposals.
It has been mentioned already that the Crown post office offers a full range of services provided at high standards. The staff in Alloa are well trained and have 100 years of experience between them—that is not quite the 280 years that Linda Fabiani mentioned but is, nevertheless, a huge amount of experience. That experience could be lost if the plans to close the post office and find what is described as a retail partner do not work.
As members of the Crown network, those staff receive training every week. They attend workshops and are kept abreast of the latest changes to products and procedures through various avenues. That experience and training is an important part of the service that the staff provide—as members have said with regard to post offices in their areas, the Alloa post office regularly has queues and is very well regarded. I have received feedback that customers go to AIIoa post office instead of Stirling, which has been franchised and is now upstairs at the back of WH Smith. People go to Alloa instead because of the level of service that they get there and the post office’s accessibility.
Crown post offices such as AIIoa provide a dedicated specialist service to communities that will not be easily replicated by a counter or two in a bigger shop. In any event, when I met representatives of the Post Office, they could come up with no suggestions of anyone in Alloa who could possibly take on the franchise.
AIIoa Crown post office is a valuable asset and an essential part of the local economy, and it is well used by local people and businesses. In response to Mary Scanlon’s point, I say that I put as much business as possible its way, as it is more or less right across the road from my office.
Currently, AIIoa post office is located in Drysdale Street in AIIoa—for those who do not know AIIoa, that is right in the heart of the town centre—and it is readily accessible for those who wish to use the service. If the plans go ahead and the Crown post office is franchised, there is a real possibility—perhaps an inevitability—that that vital service will be removed from the town centre. The only organisations that can take on the service might well be supermarkets, which are not in the town centre.
The post office brings people into the town centre, and there is a concern among local businesses about the potential knock-on effect that closure could have on their business and livelihoods.
Since the plans were announced, I have met representatives of CWU and Post Office Ltd, and I have written to the chief executive, Paula Vennels. I remain unconvinced about the argument for franchising AIIoa Crown post office. Claims that it costs £1.43 to generate every £1 of income at AIIoa are disputed by the CWU, and even if that is the case I have yet to receive evidence that suggests that any serious steps have been taken to turn that around. Assurances that there will be no reduction in services cannot be guaranteed.
Margaret McCulloch and others raised a number of issues about post offices that have been franchised, including accessibility, the range of services that are available, the quality of service and the increased length of queues. Of course, there is evidence of so-called retail partners taking on a franchise and then choosing to withdraw from the franchise at a later date, which has meant that communities have lost the service completely. I do not want that to happen in AIIoa.
I have written to the UK postal affairs minister, Jo Swinson, asking her to meet me at my office in AIIoa to discuss the issue further and to see for herself the local situation but, unfortunately, she has not afforded me the same courtesy that I often extend to ministers of the UK Government who have a constituency interest in an issue.
In 2008, I pledged to stand against any future moves to diminish post office services further in my constituency and I stand by that today. The UK Government claims to be investing £1.34 billion to ensure that the post office network is sustainable for the future, with £70 million being spent on modernising Crown branches. I would like to see some of that investment in my constituency, in AIIoa Crown post office.
The petition that I launched in partnership with AIIoa town centre business improvement district has attracted more than 2,500 signatures and clearly demonstrates that my constituents want to retain their Crown post office and the excellent services that it provides.
18:09
I congratulate Jamie Hepburn on securing this important debate on an issue that affects many parts of Scotland, as we have heard. The motion that he has brought before Parliament refers to the serious impact that the changes could have on Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Stornoway, Perth and Alloa. We have heard from across the chamber evidence to back up the proposition that the impact is likely to be considerable should the proposals go ahead.
The fact that there will be a consultation means that the debate can form part of the consultation. We have heard from many members in that regard—Linda Fabiani, for example, noted that there will be a public meeting in East Kilbride, which is expected to be well attended. We heard from Keith Brown and Annabelle Ewing that the same will apply in Alloa for the reasons that they stated.
I recognise the assistance, information and support that the CWU provides to elected representatives here and in Westminster on the matter. There has been a debate in Westminster as well.
The debate seems to be characterised by the questionable nature of many of the statistics and figures that the UK Government has put forward. I noted from the text of the Hansard report of the Westminster debate that that was a feature that Jo Swinson answered. There seems to be substantial doubt about the figures.
As a minister, the first thing that one must do is get the facts right. If the facts are wrong, the solutions will necessarily be wrong. Therefore, I urge the UK Government to listen carefully to the detailed criticism that we have received in this debate and others about the facts on which it is proceeding because there is serious questioning about the level of the losses.
I think that it was Linda Fabiani who said that, originally, the claim was made that the losses of the Crown post offices were £70 million, but that has now gone down to £46 million. What happened to the £70 million? What is the breakdown of the £70 million and of the £46 million?
Linda Fabiani questioned where I got the £46 million figure. I have the Hansard report, and I took the figure from Jo Swinson’s comment in a debate led by Gordon Banks, the Labour Party member for Ochil and South Perthshire. I just wanted to tell members where I got that figure.
I am grateful for Mary Scanlon’s intervention. I make it clear that my remarks were not addressed towards her—I accept that her record on speaking on post offices is beyond question—and that my question was to the UK Government. It came up with the figures. If it comes up with a figure for the losses, it needs to explain them. It needs to set them out and provide a computation. I would like to see that, and so would a lot of people who work in the five Crown post offices that are affected, because it concerns their jobs.
Are we really going to place such uncertainty over the people who have had so many centuries of experience between them? I thought that it was rather ungallant of Mr Brown to have pointed that out. I hope that he does not lose favour with some of the ladies who work in Alloa post office. Are their jobs really to be put under threat on the basis of figures in which we have little confidence? I suggest not.
I will make two general points about the overall issue of losses and how they can be dealt with in a difficult situation—I recognise that the situation is difficult. Unlike the UK Government, we balance our budget and live within our means. We cannot print money. It would be nice to be able to print money in life, as we could then say, “Let’s go out and print a few tenners. We can go on the town tonight.” We cannot do that and we cannot borrow money either.
Was that an offer, minister?
Order.
No, it certainly was not an offer.
To be serious, I will make a couple of points. First, has the UK Government made any analysis of the head office costs? I make that point because it has been put to me by postmasters of small rural post offices that, if Post Office Ltd wants to consider where savings could be made, it could make an analysis of those costs, which has never been done. Perhaps it should be. I am told that Peter Mandelson described Post Office Ltd as a Government department. I know from running Government departments that it is possible to make savings, so perhaps POL should consider possibilities in the head office. I make that point in all seriousness. It must be done.
Secondly, the network transformation figure of £1.34 billion is a huge amount of money. I met Ed Davey in his former role in 2012—incidentally, nobody mentioned the franchise proposal then; I think that it was dreamed up sometime later. I hesitate to say that it was dreamed up on the back of an envelope, but it has that appearance to it, does it not?
At my meeting with Ed Davey, the network transformation proposals were described. According to POL, only 3,700 of 11,500 outlets make a profit. Scotland has approximately 1,200 post offices and a significantly higher proportion of them are loss making. Network transformation proposes that only 400 of the 1,200 offices would be converted to the mains model and the rest would be converted to the local model.
The proposals indicate that, under the local model, income would drop from about £30,000 to about £10,000 a year. I have obtained those figures from some local postmasters, and I cannot comment on their absolute accuracy, but they indicate that there would be a serious threat to local post offices as well. If two thirds of their income is taken away, how on earth can they be expected to survive?
The network transformation proposal needs to be examined in the light of using some of the resource to tackle the problem of preserving the Crown post offices, analysing more properly and rationally, stepping back from the franchise proposal, going back to the drawing board and thinking the matter through.
I pay tribute to all the staff who work in post offices. All of us here deal with the public, and we know that people can get very upset. Sometimes, that is not easy to deal with. Post office staff do not have an easy job. The experience that they have accumulated over a long period should not be cast aside so lightly. Scotland deserves more. The workers in our Crown post offices most certainly deserve more.
Meeting closed at 18:16.