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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 15 Mar 2007

Meeting date: Thursday, March 15, 2007


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues will be discussed. (S2F-2777)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

I look forward to seeing the Prime Minister tomorrow, when I will tell him that, this week, the Scottish Parliament agreed to establish a rail link to Edinburgh airport; to secure healthy food for our children in our schools; and to get rid of the Tories' automatic early-release scheme. Moreover, we found out yesterday that Scotland now has the highest ever level of employment. It has been a good week in Scotland, and I look forward to telling the Prime Minister that.

Nicola Sturgeon:

As always, we welcome the Prime Minister to Scotland and hope that he comes back many times before the election.

On 7 December 2006, the First Minister said that he supported a new Trident nuclear weapons system based on the Clyde. Does he hold to that view?

The First Minister:

I have made my views very clear on this matter—and the United Kingdom Parliament, which has responsibility for it, made its view clear yesterday. It is also clear that, by focusing on this issue in the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish nationalists are trying to distract attention from the new poll tax that they announced yesterday. This Parliament has responsibility for local taxation in Scotland, and I welcome the opportunity to debate the issue with Ms Sturgeon if she is brave enough to answer questions on it.

Nicola Sturgeon:

I will be happy to discuss the SNP's policies on fair local taxation when the First Minister decides his own policy on local taxation.

However, let us go back to the issue at hand. The First Minister is, of course, entitled to his view on Trident, but does he accept that he has completely lost the argument in Scotland? Is he aware that last night 37 of Scotland's 59 MPs did not support the Government's position on Trident?

I remind the First Minister that, in a speech on 5 March 2005, he said that the Tories should never again be allowed to impose policies on Scotland against the will of the Scottish people. Will he therefore explain why he thinks that it is okay for Labour, relying on the votes of Tories, to impose a new Trident system on Scotland when a clear majority of Scotland's MPs, all of Scotland's churches, the Scottish Trades Union Congress and an overwhelming majority of the Scottish people say no to Trident?

The First Minister:

In 1997, the Scottish people voted in a referendum to ensure that the UK's defence policy was the responsibility of the UK Parliament. The Scottish nationalists are simply using this issue and the views that I believe are very genuinely held by people on both sides of the argument right across Scotland and elsewhere in the UK to distract us from their other plans for an independent Scotland. They do not want to debate the fact that an independent Scotland would have an impact on Scotland's economy, our jobs, our taxes and our spending on public services. If the Scottish nationalists want an independent Scotland with an independent defence policy, they should be prepared to debate every aspect of that, and not try to hide certain aspects as they tried to do this week, starting with the Sunday papers.

The reality is that an independent Scotland would be cut off from the fifth-largest economy in the world and would have to not only raise taxes but cut spending to maintain the level of investment that we have at the moment. Ms Sturgeon can ask me questions about that, if she is brave enough.

Nicola Sturgeon:

That is a diversionary tactic if ever there was one. The SNP has laid out its policies on health, education and tax; we are still waiting to hear from the First Minister about a few of his policies.

Let us get back to the question at hand. Is it not the case that the First Minister's position is utterly hypocritical? When the Tories imposed policies in Scotland against our will, he rightly called it a "democratic deficit". However, when Labour, propped up by Tory votes, does the same thing, this First Minister defends it. Is it not about time that Mr McConnell stopped trying to curry favour with Mr Blair and Mr Brown and instead stood up for the majority of Scottish people who do not want £25 billion to be wasted on weapons of mass destruction and who certainly do not want them to be dumped on the Clyde?

The First Minister:

The debates about the Tories imposing policies on Scotland against our will were about the poll tax. Yesterday, we saw poll tax 2 coming forward from Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. It is the new poll tax from the SNP—not only the imposition of a flat-rate tax across Scotland, but a cut in the budget to go along with it. People in Scotland would get not only the poll tax, which was bad enough, but cuts in services at the same time. Not even the Tories, when they proposed their poll tax in Scotland, proposed cutting services at the same time. We would get not only the revisiting of the Tories' poll tax, but SNP cuts in services. No attempt by the SNP to distract attention away from that and on to issues that are decided elsewhere will succeed. The people of Scotland know that the SNP now stands for poll tax 2. The SNP will pay for that at the polls.

Nicola Sturgeon:

Never before has one man talked so much utter nonsense in one answer. I remind the First Minister that the Tories paid a heavy price in Scotland for imposing the poll tax. Labour will pay a heavy price for imposing Trident.

Is it not the case that what we have is Labour disunited and in disarray, depending on Tory votes to steamroller Scottish opinion? Instead of standing up for Scotland, the First Minister backs up the unholy Labour-Tory alliance every step of the way. Is it not just as well that, seven weeks today, people in Scotland will have the chance at the ballot box to reject those—Labour or Tory—who would impose Trident, and the chance to vote instead for peace and public services?

The First Minister:

In seven weeks' time, people have a vote on the powers of this Parliament to reject the SNP's poll tax and to vote for investment and services and a stronger economy here in Scotland. In a week when Scottish employment has gone to even higher levels and still remains ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom; in a week when our investment in health and education has shown the improvements that the people of Scotland want to see; and in a week when the SNP has tried yet again to hide from its main policy of independence, we pledge here today to expose that policy to ensure that, here in Scotland, people know the implications. A vote for the SNP is always a vote for independence, and independence comes with a cost.

Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD):

Does the First Minister agree that, regardless of what view one takes on nuclear weapons, they are a serious issue that should not be reduced to constitutional point scoring?

Will the First Minister acknowledge that, in the House of Commons last night, Liberal Democrat MPs voted against the rush to replace Trident and spend £20 billion? When he meets the Prime Minister tomorrow, will he ask him to reflect on whether, if he is genuine about a legacy, it would be far better—rather than delivering a hammer blow to the cause of non-proliferation with last night's decision—to adopt Liberal Democrat policies and have an immediate 50 per cent cut in Britain's nuclear warheads, thereby breathing new life into the non-proliferation treaty?

The First Minister:

I think that these matters were resolved last night. I also believe that the decisions made last night that will involve a reduction in warheads and submarines are welcome indications.

I respect the fact that there are different views on this subject, but I make my main point yet again. Here in Scotland, just this week, we have seen the strength of our economy and the growth of employment and jobs. We have seen the powers of this Parliament used today to end the Tories' automatic early-release scheme, and yesterday to secure a rail link to Edinburgh airport. Those are real improvements in life here in Scotland, delivered by this Parliament. When people in Scotland go to the polls in seven weeks' time, they should vote on the powers of this Parliament and give us a chance to build Scotland even further.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-2778)

The Cabinet will meet next week and will discuss issues of importance to Scotland.

Miss Goldie:

Earlier this week in England, Rahan Arshad was sentenced to life in prison for the horrific murders of his wife and three children. The judge stated that, in Arshad's case, life meant life. Will the First Minister confirm that, if Arshad had committed that crime in Scotland, the judge would be required to specify a punishment part and will he further confirm that it is not possible for a judge in Scotland to tell a convicted murderer that life means life?

The First Minister:

Of course, in our separate legal system in Scotland, judges can specify that that punishment part will last a considerable length of time—in fact, in some cases, it can mean life. The Tories' suggestion that it can under no circumstances mean life is a complete and total distortion. We have heard that distortion regularly in the chamber in recent years. The Tories should stop distorting the truth and get on with debating the issues.

Miss Goldie:

The family of a murder victim goes to court to see justice done. To them, a punishment part that is in single figures is galling.

In addition to being anxious about the misuse of the term "life", the people of Scotland have, for some time, been worried about the Lib-Lab pact's policy of allowing non-lifers to stroll out of jail early. The First Minister has tried to talk his way round the provisions of the Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill by saying that prisoners will serve their total custodial sentences in jail. What he cannot say is that prisoners will serve their total sentence in jail because, under his new mongrel system, the sentence is split in two: the custody part and the community part.

Is the truth not that the bill is simply designed to make the First Minister sound like the friend of the victim when the fact is that Labour and the Liberal Democrats are still on the side of the criminal?

The First Minister:

That is a breathtaking misrepresentation from the Conservatives. The Conservatives introduced a law in Scotland that not only allowed people to be let out of jail early but gave people the automatic right to leave jail early without any conditions applying to them when they went into the community.

Today, the Executive and the Scottish Parliament are righting the wrong that was imposed by the Conservatives on Scotland in the 1990s. In doing so, we will ensure not only that the custodial sentence that is imposed by a judge is served in full, but that those judges are able to impose an additional part of the sentence that ensures that the offenders are monitored and rehabilitated in the community after their custodial sentence. It is not just prison meaning prison; it is prison plus. Therefore, the system is far better than the one that the Tories introduced. We are proud to be repealing their laws and replacing them with ours. People in Scotland will be safer as a result.

Miss Goldie:

Eight years of failure by the Lib-Lab pact cannot be spun away in eight minutes at FMQs. The First Minister is kidding nobody. Just now, prisoners stroll out of jail either half way or two thirds of the way through their total sentences. Under the First Minister's new legislation, all prisoners could stroll out of jail half way through their total sentences. If it looks like early release and smells like early release, it is early release.

If the First Minister were actually tough on crime and tough on criminals, his Lib-Lab pact would have backed our amendments this morning, as they would have kept criminals in jail longer. We have made it clear today, as we have done for many years, that we want criminals in custody. However, the Lib-Lab pact and, shamefully, the SNP, have made it clear that they want criminals in our communities. When will the First Minister stop standing up for criminals and start standing up for Scotland?

The First Minister:

If we want to talk about years of failure, we could easily talk about 18 years in which crime rose, cutbacks were made in communities to the services for young people that distracted them away from a life of crime, and Scotland experienced the social decay that led to much of that criminality in the first place. We will take no lectures from Conservatives in Scotland about the impact of their policies on crime.

The Conservatives brought in automatic early release and created a system that allowed people to walk out of jail without any conditions being attached to their time in the community. Today, we are creating a system in which, if the judge says that someone will spend a number of years in prison, they will spend that number of years in prison and, when someone leaves prison, they will not just walk out and re-enter their community but will have conditions imposed on them. That is a far better system than the previous one. It is one that this Parliament was created to establish and we are proud to be voting it through today.

Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):

Will the First Minister join me in expressing profound sympathy for the families of Chris Mallin and Brian Wight, both of whom were 16, and Peter Reilly, who was 21, all from Kennoway in my constituency and who tragically were killed in a road traffic accident on Tuesday evening, and for their friends and others who witnessed the accident and tried to help?

The First Minister has spoken this week about the need to reduce the number of accidents and deaths among young drivers. Will he examine urgently schemes such as the safe drive stay alive scheme in Fife, which trains young people in the dangers of car use, and the pass plus scheme, to find out whether he can introduce any measures that would reduce the tragic waste of young lives?

The First Minister:

When I was growing up on the Isle of Arran, I lost friends in road traffic accidents, which I remember deeply to this day. I know about the impact, particularly in rural areas, that bad and poor driving can have on the families who are affected by such tragic losses. I am sure that all members would want to express their sympathy for the families who were affected by the accident that Christine May mentioned and by other accidents in the past week. We must ensure that proper training is provided for young people as they learn to drive and continue driving, but we must also ensure that we have safety measures on our roads that help to prevent accidents and prevent pedestrians from being affected by accidents.

We must create a culture in society of more personal responsibility. At the heart of the issue is the fact that, in too many instances, people driving cars in this country do not take personal responsibility for their actions. Whether people use mobile phones, drive too fast or irresponsibly do not take account of other vehicles on the roads or pedestrians, it is simply unacceptable to put others' lives at risk. Politicians from all parties have a responsibility to show leadership and to urge greater personal responsibility as well as Government action in the years ahead.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he intends to discuss. (S2F-2786)

I expect to see the Secretary of State for Scotland again soon. We will discuss issues that are important to Scotland.

Shiona Baird:

In the wake of the publication of the United Kingdom draft Climate Change Bill, Sarah Boyack hurriedly announced plans for a Scottish climate change bill that is intended to apply to devolved matters. Seven weeks before the election, will the First Minister tell voters whether the Scottish climate change bill will set binding annual targets on the Executive to reduce climate change pollution and, if not, why not?

The First Minister:

It would probably be inappropriate for me, as head of the coalition Government, to outline today Labour's plans for the election. However, I reassure Shiona Baird that the commitment to a climate change bill from the Labour Party was announced not on Tuesday, but several weeks ago, on the day that David Miliband was in Scotland. I assure the member that she will find the content of the proposal interesting when she reads it in three weeks, when the election campaign gets under way fully. The Administration has a strong record on climate change. The two parties in the coalition have worked together on the issue. The climate change programme that we have outlined has received praise, at home and elsewhere, and we have a record of action on the issue that stands any test of scrutiny.

There is a proper debate about whether there should be annual targets or targets across a number of years. This week, the UK Government announced targets that would be across five years—between 2008 and 2012. Some people criticised that and said that there should be annual targets but, this week, Jonathon Porritt, who chairs the Sustainable Development Commission and who we would all accept is an absolute authority in the UK on such matters and has been for at least two decades, said:

"I think the NGOs have got this wrong … What the Government has gone for are … five year budgets rather than one year targets. We think that is a more sensible and practical way of driving change … to be honest, the notion of the one year target is just a bit of macho breast-beating … and I don't think that the government has got this … wrong."

I am prepared to go with Jonathon Porritt's view on the matter. If we in Scotland look to set targets, we should set targets that are beyond one year.

Shiona Baird:

I thank the First Minister for that reply, but I disagree with him on his record in the Parliament. Does he agree that his Executive's green thread has snapped? The evidence is that on environmental justice, the Executive has failed; on waste reduction, it has failed; on energy efficiency, it has failed; on road transport reduction, it has failed; and on climate change action, it has gone nowhere. Does he agree with the Greens that Scotland needs binding annual climate change targets now? Yes or no?

Members:

No.

The First Minister:

My colleagues have answered the question for the member.

I shall go through our record. The Green party describes our record on waste as a failure. In fact, the recycling of waste in Scotland has gone from 6 per cent five years ago to 25 per cent today. The use of clean energy in Scotland has gone from less than 9 per cent in 2001 towards our ambitious target of 40 per cent of renewable energy generation by 2020, and we met our 2010 target five years early. We have an ambitious climate change programme for Scotland. The official figures indicate that net Scottish greenhouse gas emissions fell by 12 per cent between 2001 and 2004.

Public transport now accounts for 70 per cent of our transport budgets. Two years ago, 150 million fewer car miles were driven on our roads. Five years ago, there were 65 million journeys by train in Scotland; last year, there were 75 million. In those and in many other areas of climate change and environmental issues, this nation, Scotland, is leading the rest of the United Kingdom. We are proud to do so, and we look forward to continuing after May.


Trans Fats

To ask the First Minister what action is proposed to reduce the presence of trans fats in Scotland's diet. (S2F-2787)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Many in the food industry are already voluntarily removing trans fats from their products. The Food Standards Agency has no plans to recommend a ban on the sale of foods containing trans fats. We and the agency will keep that policy under review. Should any new evidence about health risks come to light, we would be prepared to take appropriate action.

Dr Murray:

Is the First Minister aware that evidence from the United States of America indicates that trans fats in the diet increase low-density cholesterol levels and reduce high-density cholesterol levels, thereby increasing the probability of clogged arteries and heart attack? The UK as a whole consumes less than the recommended maximum of 2 per cent of trans fats, but is he concerned that trans fats are more prevalent in the economy brands and that therefore people on lower incomes may be inadvertently consuming higher levels of trans fats? Will he discuss with the Food Standards Agency the inclusion of trans fats in its traffic light scheme?

The First Minister:

I am sure that ministers would be happy to take up that last suggestion, but I stress that the primary focus of our efforts in that area in Scotland has been on saturated fats. There is a particular problem with trans fats in the USA, but it is not a problem on the same scale here. The big problem in the Scottish diet is saturated fats. We are trying to tackle that through our hungry for success programme; through improvements to school meals—new legislation that was passed yesterday guarantees nutritious school meals for all children in Scotland; through the activity co-ordinators in our schools; and through the success of the keep well pilots that we hope to see spread throughout Scotland, to improve the health, diet and exercise levels of individual Scots. In addition, we are getting the food industry to take voluntary action to reduce the level of fats in food.

John Scott (Ayr) (Con):

The First Minister will be aware of the concerns about poor diet and childhood obesity that were raised in the recently published Scottish diet action plan. He will also be aware that the potential increases in childhood obesity, with its attendant risk of diabetes and other illnesses, is likely to wipe out all the health gains that have been made in the past 10 years. Does the First Minister agree that part of the problem has been a lack of strategic approach, and does he accept that Government must now develop a strategically integrated approach between Government departments to address the problem? Does he have any plans to do that?

The First Minister:

However genuine Mr Scott's views are, he will find that clinicians and experts regard our strategy on diabetes as one of the most respected in Europe. The action plan was put together and implemented by bringing together people in the health community, academic experts and others. The plan gives us the opportunity to tackle an issue that is particularly prevalent here in Scotland.

The investment that Johnson and Johnson has made in production and research in Inverness shows not only that we can continue to tackle the issue, but that we can create and support successful enterprises that will help people elsewhere in the world.

Our actions so far have been praised, but they are not yet sufficient and we need to continue to improve them.


Hospitals (Car Parking)

To ask the First Minister, further to his reported comments on hospital car parking charges at a recent "Ask Jack" event, what intervention the Scottish Executive plans to make to address the concerns of hospital staff and users. (S2F-2779)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Revised guidance on car park charging has been issued to national health service boards in a Health Department letter. NHS boards that fail to comply with the car parking guidance or, for that matter, with any other guidance that is issued in the form of Health Department letters are accountable to the chief executive of NHS Scotland.

Ms White:

I thank the First Minister for his reply, but I had rather hoped that he might take the issue to the Labour group and come back with a more positive recommendation.

Does the First Minister agree that many workers, because of the nature of their job, cannot access public transport and have no option other than to use the car? Does he further agree that deducting money from wages by charging up to £12 a day is nothing more than a tax on health service workers and is simply not acceptable?

The First Minister mentioned recommendations and reviews. When will he publish the Executive's review? Will it be published before or after the election?

The First Minister:

It would be helpful if SNP members made representations before decisions were changed rather than coming in afterwards. Pauline McNeill and other Glasgow members have been raising the issue for weeks. As a result of that, Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS Board has decided, quite properly and correctly, to withdraw its proposals so that they can be revised. The new guidance that has been issued in the past week makes absolutely clear that the interests of staff and regular patients should be included in any proposals for car parking charges.

I welcome the changes that have taken place both inside the Health Department and in the Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS Board. It is right that the proposals have been changed and it is right that, where car parking charges are necessary in the health service in Scotland, the charges do not penalise, in particular, lower-paid members of staff and those patients who have to attend hospital regularly.


Tourism

To ask the First Minister, in Scottish tourism week 2007, what steps are being taken to grow tourism. (S2F-2784)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Our ambition is to grow Scottish tourism with a 50 per cent revenue growth by 2015. We are investing around £90 million a year in tourism, including in VisitScotland's award-winning marketing. We have taken tough decisions to reorganise the service and we are now seeing the benefits of improved promotion and quality at home and abroad. There has been a huge increase in international visitors, with the overseas market up by 50 per cent between 2001 and 2005. That is very encouraging evidence of how tourism is growing.

Richard Baker:

Will the First Minister assure me that the Executive's successful tourism strategy will continue to focus on growing tourism throughout Scotland including, for example, the rapidly developing golf tourism industry in the north-east? Does he agree that one of the first mistakes of a nightmare SNP Administration would be to scrap the post of tourism minister, as the SNP announced at the beginning of tourism week?

The First Minister:

First, let me say positively that the growth of golf tourism in the north-east and the growth of green tourism throughout Scotland have been significant. With the improved promotion of Scotland especially in Europe and North America, the number of tourists has increased in recent years at almost twice the rate of the increase in the rest of the United Kingdom. Our tourism and our investment in tourism are working. We have worked in conjunction with the industry, which likes to be represented at the top table.

The SNP's wish to withdraw that representation by not having a tourism minister in the Cabinet is only one of a number of impacts that an SNP Administration would have on the tourism industry. That would be one problem. The cuts in budgets, locally and nationally, that would result from the SNP's poll tax would be another problem. Of course, there would also be the absolute distraction for four years of moving towards independence with a referendum. Given all the distractions involved in that, the SNP would take its eye off the ball when it should be growing our economy, growing tourism and ensuring that Scottish people have jobs for the future. Our priorities should be those issues rather than the SNP's plans for independence.

Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):

Has the Scottish Executive made any assessment of the impact on tourism in Scotland of Gordon Brown's doubling of air passenger duty? In his few remaining weeks in office, will the First Minister urge the chancellor not to take any further measures to damage the Scottish economy and Scottish tourism?

The First Minister:

It would be good if, now and again, Alex Neil said, for example, that in the course of devolution we have seen a trebling of the number of direct air routes in and out of Scotland as a result of measures that have been taken by this devolved Executive. The distraction of the SNP's plans for independence would of course have meant that it could not have delivered that kind of improvement in Scotland.

When I next speak to the chancellor, I will make it absolutely clear to him that we oppose the SNP's plans for a poll tax here in Scotland and its plans to take Scotland as an independent country out of the fifth-largest, most stable economy in the western world and that we will ensure that the resources that he provides for us yet again in the budget next week will be invested properly in health, education, tackling crime and creating even more jobs than those that are shown in the record employment levels that we heard about yesterday. Scotland today is a successful country and we will not let the SNP spoil it.