The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-13112, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on Scottish apprenticeship week. Members who wish to speak should press their request-to-speak button now.
I call Roseanna Cunningham to speak to and move the motion. Cabinet secretary, you have a maximum of 13 minutes.
15:19
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I see the look in your eye and I will try to finish my speech in a little less time than that.
Today is an opportunity to promote the forthcoming Scottish apprenticeship week and celebrate the success of Scotland’s modern apprentices and everyone who is associated with the programme, which has become a key element of our approach to economic development and youth employment.
The prominence of apprenticeships across the manifestos for the recent general election illustrates cross-party understanding of their importance. They are unique in the way that they support young people into sustainable and rewarding careers and contribute to meeting our businesses’ skills needs. Modern apprenticeships not only support young people but are open to people of all ages, which is right, given the diverse needs of the businesses that use them. Today I will focus on the important role that they play in supporting our ambitions for youth employment.
The overall success of Scotland’s modern apprenticeship programme is undeniable and its contribution to our economy continues to evolve. This Government has grown the programme from 15,000 starts in 2007 to more than 25,000 new places each year for the past three years. The opportunities span the Scottish economy, from sectors with a long tradition of training apprentices, such as construction and engineering, to growth in newer sectors for apprenticeships, such as financial services. We are now committed to increasing the target to at least 30,000 new modern apprenticeship opportunities each year by 2020. That is a central part of our ambition to develop a world-class vocational education system that matches our world-class—and free—higher education system.
We must ensure that, like all parts of our education system, work-based learning is valued by employers and offers opportunities to all young people, irrespective of their background. We must ensure that more employers—particularly small employers—engage with the programme, and we need to align modern apprenticeship opportunities with emerging growth sectors across our economy.
I want to say something about the upcoming week. I congratulate Skills Development Scotland on its work to deliver Scotland’s modern apprenticeship programme. I also congratulate the network of delivery partners, including private training providers, local authorities, third sector providers and colleges, which work every day with thousands of apprentices and employers across the country. Scottish apprenticeship week, which SDS is co-ordinating across Scotland, will highlight the reach and impact of the programme. I will take part in a range of events, including a business conference with the Scottish Council for Development and Industry and a visit to GTG Training to meet some of the apprentices it has in training. The Minister for Youth and Women’s Employment is also undertaking a number of visits. I understand that SDS has invited members to local apprenticeship week events around the country and I strongly encourage everyone to see for themselves the benefits that the programme delivers.
Over recent years, Scotland has made significant progress in addressing youth unemployment. It is important to acknowledge the crucial role played by employers, training providers, colleges and third sector organisations in supporting our young people towards and into work throughout an extremely challenging period of recession. A return to pre-recessionary levels of youth unemployment is an important milestone, but we must maintain our commitment to going further.
In partnership with local authorities, we have embarked on the implementation of an ambitious strategy to reduce youth unemployment by 40 per cent by 2021. That will take Scotland to a level that will match the top-performing European countries, and expanding our modern apprenticeship programme will make a key contribution to that. The strategy is as much about promoting to school pupils, and those who influence them, the fact that there are many routes into a wide variety of good jobs.
The world is changing rapidly and jobs are evolving. We need to develop the collaboration and crucial links that exist between schools, colleges and business, across children’s broad general education and senior phase, in exciting new ways in order to make that vision a reality. One way in which we are doing that is through the introduction of foundation apprenticeships, which offer young people the chance of work-based learning as part of an existing modern apprenticeship framework in the senior phase of school.
Any expansion in modern apprenticeships must be driven by employer demand. We already prioritise the funding contributions for modern apprenticeships towards key and enabling sectors of the economy, and we will continue to do that. Skills investment plans and regional skills assessments are important elements of Scotland’s skills planning system. Developed in partnership with industry, they provide a detailed insight into the current and future skills needs of Scotland’s economy, allowing our education and skills system to align with employer needs.
We want to persuade more employers to participate in the programme, so it is important that the quality of training that is being delivered remains at a high standard. This year, we are introducing a pathfinder project to independently quality assure the training that is delivered through the modern apprenticeship programme.
In its report, the commission for developing Scotland’s young workforce—the Wood commission—highlighted key equality challenges across vocational education. I know that there are many members in the chamber who have particular concerns in that area. Those equality challenges are also evident in our labour market and, indeed, in our society, so we all must take those challenges seriously.
Through our youth employment strategy, we committed to bring forward new initiatives to encourage more people from underrepresented groups to take part in the modern apprenticeship programme. As cultural norms do not change quickly, some of that activity will need to address wider societal issues in the long term. However, we must also look to make improvement now, where we can.
To implement that commitment, we provided SDS with additional funding in 2014-15 to develop a range of equality activity, and I would like to highlight examples of some of the work that that supported.
It is important that we recognise that progress has been made on occupational segregation within the modern apprenticeship programme. In 2013-14, 41 per cent of modern apprenticeship starts were women, compared with 27 per cent in 2008-09. That is good progress but there are still significant gender imbalances that need to be addressed. We need to widen young people’s perceptions from an early stage to ensure that they make more informed choices.
SDS is already working with leading gender equality organisations and local authorities to challenge and tackle gender segregation. Through the recent SDS campaign—you work, you learn, you earn—we promote modern apprenticeships as a career option for young women, encouraging them to consider modern apprenticeship roles in sectors that are traditionally regarded as male dominated. The minister and I have met a number of those young women in areas of the labour market that would not normally be associated with women’s employment. Women are beginning to move into those areas, and it is good that those role models now exist.
SDS is working with a number of wider partners, including Engender, Close the Gap, Equate, the Institute of Physics and the Construction Industry Training Board, to identify and address some of the most difficult and ingrained issues that are preventing young women from considering non-traditional areas of employment.
During 2013-14, only 0.4 per cent of all modern apprenticeship starts declared themselves as having a disability. I know that that is a matter of concern for a great number of people. That figure is based on self-declaration, with evidence of some underreporting. Nonetheless, disabled people are underrepresented within modern apprenticeships, just as they are in the workforce. We need to work on a number of fronts to change the perceptions of employers, parents and young disabled people themselves. Some of the steps that SDS is currently taking to achieve that include working with Barnardo’s and Remploy on specific targeted pathway projects to help, through the employability fund, more than 100 disabled young people to enter a modern apprenticeship. That aligns with the help that is available through community jobs Scotland, which is already providing support and job training opportunities to unemployed young people aged 16 to 24, including those who face additional barriers to employment.
However, increasing the participation of disabled people in work goes beyond the modern apprenticeship programme, obviously. The Department for Work and Pensions access to work programme plays an important role in helping disabled people in Scotland to remain in work. I would be concerned if reported proposals to limit the support that is available through access to work adversely impacted disabled people in Scotland.
What the cabinet secretary said about having to overcome societal norms is correct.
The cabinet secretary will be aware of the fairly significant discrepancy between the number of disabled people who are involved in modern apprenticeships south of the border and the number north of the border. The same issues of underdeclaration probably exist on both sides of the border. Has the Government done any work to get a better understanding of why that discrepancy exists?
We are looking at the issue very carefully because the difference is significant and we need to understand how it has come about. It will not have happened overnight, and there are some real issues there. One element may be that Scotland has traditionally had a jobs-led apprenticeship programme, so there may have been a bigger challenge with some employers. However, I do not want to make a gross assumption that that is the only thing that has been happening. There may be more going on.
We are building capacity across the skills and training landscape, and SDS is taking concrete steps, through a programme of continuing professional development, to ensure that its staff and training providers are better able to support disabled people into modern apprenticeships. We want to take a range of actions. SDS has set up an equalities advice line and is developing an additional support needs resource guide for training providers. It is also working with employer bodies to highlight the benefits to employers of recruiting from a more diverse population, including young disabled people, and is helping employers to access support for disabled employees.
The group of young people who are broadly classified as black and minority ethnic are less likely to participate in certain vocational pathways for a number of complex reasons—including, in some cases, the cultural attitude of their parents. Changing perceptions of the value of modern apprenticeships will play a key role in increasing the number of BME young people who consider a modern apprenticeship to be the right option for them.
SDS is currently working with a number of organisations to engage directly with BME communities to change those perceptions and to raise awareness. It is undertaking research to better understand the barriers—real and perceived—and is building an evidence base on which to base an improvement plan.
I am conscious of the time, and I want to make sure that I get this point in. We want to commit to taking real, tangible action—this follows on from what Liam McArthur said—to improve the accessibility of modern apprenticeship opportunities to all young people in our society. I can announce an allocation of £500,000 to SDS specifically to support the final development and early delivery of an equalities action plan, which will look across the various areas.
I am proud of how far we have come since 2007. I am proud of the work that we are doing and the targets that we are setting ourselves for 2020 for apprenticeships and for 2021 for reducing youth unemployment. I hope that everybody in the chamber will join me in celebrating the success of the programme and will go to one of the many Scottish apprenticeship week events that will take place next week.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament recognises the success of the modern apprenticeship (MA) programme and how it contributes to addressing youth unemployment while allowing young people to earn while they learn; encourages employers to consider workforce development and higher workforce skills that support long-term sustainable growth; supports the Commission for Developing Scotland’s Young Workforce’s ambitions for a world-class vocational education system; further supports the Scottish Government’s ambitions for the expansion of the programme to provide 30,000 new MA starts each year by 2020, and joins the Scottish Government in celebrating this success by supporting the activities taking place next week through the fifth annual Scottish Apprenticeship Week.—[Roseanna Cunningham.]
15:33
I thank the cabinet secretary and the Government for holding this debate to celebrate Scottish apprenticeship week, and I welcome the money that the cabinet secretary has just announced—although, after my remarks, she will probably understand why I perhaps do not welcome the fact that it is SDS that will deliver the plan. However, I welcome the money and any help that will address issues that Labour has raised.
The debate gives me a great opportunity to offer the Labour Party’s support in working with the Scottish Government to help as many young people as possible in Scotland to access apprenticeships. The belief in our young people’s potential and in their capacity to excel if we empower them to do so is undoubtedly one that is shared across the chamber and across Scotland. The Parliament works best when we come together in the chamber and work towards improving opportunities for our constituents.
My colleagues and I welcomed the Government’s commitment in December 2014 to take forward the recommendations of Sir Ian Wood’s commission for developing Scotland’s young workforce. I hope that the Government is successful in its aim of cutting youth unemployment by 40 per cent. Apprenticeships, as highlighted by apprenticeship week, are obviously a key part of that.
Throughout our public sector, decision makers and staff on the front line make a tremendous effort to ensure that opportunities are open to as many young people as possible. I know that several colleagues have worked in and around local government and they will not need me to remind them of some of the leading-edge schemes that our councils have come up with. The efforts of both Falkirk Council and South Lanarkshire Council to facilitate apprenticeships in their communities have merit and are worthy of recognition. However, given the time constraints, I will mention only one scheme, which is in my native North Lanarkshire.
Schools in North Lanarkshire offer their pupils real, practical opportunities. During the 2013-14 session, the in-school vocational education delivery model enabled more than 2,000 senior students to undertake vocational training courses alongside traditional subjects in 63 custom-made facilities across 24 mainstream schools and eight specialist schools. The subjects were varied, ranging from construction crafts to beauty care, and are Scottish Qualifications Authority certified.
Two North Lanarkshire schools have pioneered a programme in which young people are offered the opportunity to learn the trade of professional cookery while working with North Lanarkshire Council for a period of one year, gaining practical work experience while they undertake a vocational qualification. Our councils are on the front line in tackling youth unemployment, and I have always held the view that those who deal with such issues every day are best equipped to know how to tackle the same issues at the national level. It is important that our Government continues to empower councils to improve their offer to young people at the local level.
I know that the Government says that one of its key aims is to enshrine equalities in every aspect of its legislation. I feel—perhaps as a result of the years that I spent as a member of the Parliament’s Equal Opportunities Committee—that it would be remiss of me not to mention the real concerns that I have about the Government’s success in meeting that aim for its apprenticeship programme.
I acknowledge the Government’s efforts to offer the opportunity of an apprenticeship to all, regardless of background. I welcome the fact that the number of young women entering apprenticeships increased significantly by 2012-13, at which point there were almost four times as many female apprentices as there had been in 2008-09. However, a March 2015 Audit Scotland report indicated that the Government’s flagship modern apprenticeship programme had served only to reinforce gender segregation. As I am sure many members will know, in 2012-13, 98 per cent of construction apprentices were male and 97 per cent of childcare apprentices were female.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission states:
“The uptake of Modern Apprenticeships in Scotland is typified by significant gender segregation, with ethnic minorities and disabled people also appearing to have low levels of access to all forms of apprenticeships.”
It is a depressing fact that less than 0.5 per cent of all modern apprenticeship placements are taken by someone with a declared disability.
Skills Development Scotland has been tasked with addressing the gender imbalance that exists in sectors such as construction and health and social care, yet it seems to have had little impact. SDS’s own figures indicate that, as of December 2014, only 4 per cent of engineering apprentices in Scotland were women.
It seems rather optimistic to ask SDS to take the lead in tackling a societal issue such as occupational segregation and expect it to make great strides. It should be incumbent on SDS to encourage young women to seek out alternative careers, but that seems to be outwith the organisation’s abilities and remit.
During my time on the Equal Opportunities Committee, gender segregation in Scotland was discussed time and time again. In compiling its “Women and Work” report, the committee heard evidence that indicated that uptake among young women at school of science, technology, engineering and maths subjects was not high. SDS itself has indicated that only 15 per cent of those doing information technology courses, for instance, were female.
If we are serious about breaking through glass ceilings, that problem must be tackled at a much earlier stage. We need to hear the experiences of successful women in those fields and listen to their views on how we can foster a new generation of young female apprentices in those areas.
As the person—I think—who trained the first female joiner in Argyll well over 20 years ago, I note, as I am sure Liam McArthur will confirm, that Orkney Islands Council now employs a female stonemason as a young apprentice. Is there an opportunity for employers to realise that there are significant benefits in introducing women into their workforce?
Yes, I totally agree, but, depressingly, the example that the member gave is just one in 20 years. I know that that was supposed to be positive, but we have to do a lot more than we are doing just now.
I do not want to have a prolonged discussion about the Government’s cuts to colleges during a debate on apprenticeships, but I cannot fail to mention them and their disproportionate effect on women. There has been a drop of 41 per cent in the number of women at college in Scotland since 2007-08. How can we expect women to reach their potential if we are pulling the ladder out from underneath them in that way?
Following the publication of the Government's response to the Wood commission, I wrote to the minister and asked her about the Government’s plans to tackle occupational segregation in the workforce more broadly. I was heartened by her response, in which she outlined some of the pilots that the Government was sponsoring, and I hope that similar schemes will prove to be effective in challenging gender segregation in the workplace.
I have received correspondence from SDS about the concerns that I have raised in Parliament that the modern apprenticeship programme does not deliver—and not only for women but for protected groups in general under the Equality Act 2010. I do not doubt the sincerity of the commitment of those at SDS to protecting our vulnerable groups, but I think that the organisation could do more.
In October 2013, I asked the then minister Angela Constance how many of the people participating in the programme identified as being part of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community. The letter that I received from Mr Danny Logue, SDS director of operations, made it clear that the organisation does not gather that information. For a public body that is tasked with ensuring that a programme is representative to neglect gathering that most basic information is unacceptable.
Similarly, in December 2013, I asked the Government how many people in the modern apprenticeship programme had a learning difficulty. The response that I received from SDS was that, although it asks about disability, it does not differentiate between physical and mental challenges. The only question that is asked of applicants is:
“Do you have a mental or a physical impairment which has a long term and adverse effect on your ability to perform normal day to day activities?”
There is no opportunity for candidates to elaborate—a yes or no is all that is required. Given that the challenges facing those who identify as having a physical disability and those who have a complex mental health issue are so different, by any standard they should not be lumped together. No useful information can be gained from such a narrow and standardised test.
We have to look at protection for apprentices who are currently serving their time and whose employers are facing redundancies. I know that the issue has been spoken about before, but a lot more could and should be done in the area.
I recently had the pleasure of attending the young Scotland’s got talent Lanarkshire event in my region. The event was a great example of third sector and private sector groups coming together with local authorities to help young people with complex conditions achieve their potential. The event appealed to the aspirations of those who attended and encouraged employers to offer an opportunity, through a job or an apprenticeship, to motivated young people with conditions such as autism. Among the attendees, there was agreement that, if support networks are in place and opportunities are available, young Scots of various backgrounds could reach their potential. There was a sense that, if we work together, we can achieve so much more.
I believe that, across the chamber, there is much in the way of common ground and common purpose on the issue. We on the Labour benches are happy to support the Government’s motion. However, more work needs to be done to increase the number of apprenticeships that are taken up by women and by LGBT and black, Asian and minority ethnic people. That is why, if we are serious, we must support Labour’s amendment.
I move amendment S4M-13112.3, to insert at end:
“; further believes that the Scottish Government should use Scottish Apprenticeship Week as a platform to draw attention to the findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission report, Modern Apprenticeships, Equality & The Economy: Spreading the Benefits, which raised concerns regarding low levels of disabled people in modern apprenticeships, and recognises that more work needs to be done in raising the number of apprenticeships being taken up by women and LGBT and black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) people”.
15:42
I will continue on the theme of common purpose and agreement. We, too welcome the debate, which takes place as we approach Scottish apprenticeship week and which gives us a chance to highlight the work that has been done, the opportunities that have been gained and the life chances that have been enhanced, and to look at how much more we can do. That includes ensuring that modern apprenticeships are open to all who can benefit from them. I, too, will be doing a visit next week. We support the Government motion and the Labour amendment, and I trust that our amendment will be taken positively and constructively, as it is written. The intention is to improve the accessibility of modern apprenticeships for all.
I will mention the number of male and female apprenticeships, and not just in relation to occupational segregation. At level 2, the numbers of male and female apprentices are almost equal; at level 3, there are about 50 per cent more males than females; at level 4, there are three times more males than females; and, at level 5, there are 10 times more males than females. That needs to be looked at. The issue is not just about culture or occupational segregation; it is about the level of achievement.
I heard what the cabinet secretary said about the disabled, and I welcome the £500,000 to address equality of opportunity. In England, almost 8 per cent of apprenticeships are undertaken by people with a declared disability, whereas the figure in Scotland is less than 1 per cent—in fact, it is 0.7 per cent. I welcome the fact that that issue will be looked at. I also welcome the commitment to consider what support can be given, where appropriate, to ensure that modern apprenticeships are open to disabled people.
There can be no doubt that the abolition of employers’ national insurance contributions for apprenticeships aged under 25 is a significant positive step towards incentivising employers to recruit more apprentices. I expect that members across the chamber will welcome that initiative.
At last week’s meeting of the cross-party group on colleges and universities, we heard of considerable good practice, including the articulation from apprentice training and higher national certificates to second-year university. That can be achieved by colleges and universities working more closely to ensure that second-year students who come from further education and apprenticeships are at the same starting point in terms of knowledge, experience and qualifications, and means that training does not always end with an apprenticeship and can continue.
Edinburgh College’s briefing paper highlights its aim to introduce apprenticeships in growing industries such as IT, energy, life sciences and finance, and in management. I welcome that, particularly given last year’s Audit Scotland report, which stated that there was very little correlation between modern apprenticeships and the growth industries in Scotland. I welcome that from Edinburgh College; I also think that SDS could do more.
In its briefing, Lockheed Martin stated that there is currently a shortage of young people entering the digital technology industry. That came with a warning that Scotland could lose out on huge economic benefits to our nation if it does not have a stream of well-qualified young people going into the industry. We have to listen to employers.
I have to say that I especially like Asda’s briefing, which stated that
“we hire for attitude and train for skill”.
We should do more to value apprenticeships and, indeed, jobs in the retail and hospitality sectors, given the huge numbers that those sectors employ. The fact that Asda’s chief executive, Andy Clarke, began his retail career aged 17 as a supermarket trolley attendant is proof that Asda does not just train for a few months but provides a proper career path.
Much good work is being done—on foundation apprenticeships, for example—but there are also concerns. One of my concerns is that, in Scotland, 93,000 young people aged between 16 and 24 are not in education, employment or training. We need to know what is being done to target that group, whose number increased by 3,000 in 2013.
Will the member take a brief intervention?
The member is in her final minute.
I am running out of time—sorry.
Another concern is that, although I welcome the Government’s announcements on modern apprenticeship starts, we need to look at modern apprenticeship achievements. If we look at 2014-15, we can see that there were 19,500 modern apprenticeship starts, but 13,500 achieved a modern apprenticeship qualification. In other words, out of 19,500 MA starts, 6,000 did not achieve a qualification—the number who achieved a qualification was down by 6 per cent on the previous year. The point is we should not measure just enrolments in the programme, because success should be judged by the number who complete the programme successfully. A 28 per cent rate of non-achievement is not acceptable.
I move amendment S4M-13112.2, to insert at end:
“; urges the Scottish Government to have a renewed focus on delivering more higher level apprenticeships as promised in its response to the final report of the Commission for Developing Scotland’s Young Workforce in June 2014; recognises that there is a gender imbalance in the delivery of modern apprenticeships, both across the frameworks and the levels, with significantly fewer women training to levels 4 and 5 and in subjects including construction and science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) industries; understands that less than 1% of apprentices in Scotland have a declared disability, compared with 7.8% in England, and considers that this disparity should be reviewed as a priority, and believes that the decision by the UK Government to abolish employers’ national insurance contributions for apprentices aged under 25 from April 2016 will enable businesses to employ more apprentices”.
We move to the open debate with six-minute speeches. I call on Gordon MacDonald, followed by Iain Gray. We are very tight for time today.
15:48
The focus for too long, across not just Scotland but also the United Kingdom, has been the view of some parents and educationists that the only path to a successful career or a good job prospect is the academic route via university.
Many job opportunities for trained craftsmen and women pay higher salaries than university graduates can expect. For instance, according to one recruitment website, bricklayers can expect to earn 50 per cent more than the average national wage.
Choosing a vocational career, and in particular deciding to be an apprentice, can bring instant benefits for many young people. They earn a salary and gain a recognised qualification while working, there is on-the-job training that provides real work experience, there is funding to help meet training costs, and for many it is a shorter route to a well-paid job than university would be.
The City of Edinburgh Council and the CITB organise construction career taster sessions to give potential candidates who are interested in construction careers the opportunity to come along and experience a real project, talk with apprentices and project managers, and experience a construction site. That is important because, as the economy improves, there is more and more demand for skilled individuals across the construction industry. Some of that demand will be met by people returning after the recession but, for workforce planning reasons, the sector needs apprentices.
It is not just in construction where there are apprenticeship opportunities. The Skills Development Scotland website highlights just some of the opportunities that are currently available in the Edinburgh area, ranging from the modern apprenticeship vacancies at Heriot-Watt University in my constituency for mechanical technicians to install, maintain and operate research equipment including instruments, electrical equipment and robotics, to landscape gardening and horticultural modern apprenticeships with a small company.
The briefing from Edinburgh College highlighted that it currently employs 148 modern apprenticeships across key sectors including engineering, hospitality, automotive, hairdressing, childcare, highways maintenance and security. The college has indicated that, next year, that number will increase, with up to a further 50 modern apprentices.
Edinburgh College works with employers and training providers to deliver apprenticeship training in additional areas including construction trades, care, business administration, accounting and sport and leisure, with more than 1,000 apprentices training there each year.
Over the past three years, the Scottish Government has delivered more than 77,000 modern apprenticeship opportunities, exceeding the set target of 25,000 each year. The Government has announced that that number will increase to 30,000 new modern apprenticeships by 2020. That is nearly double the number of modern apprenticeships that were in existence in 2007-08. In addition, the new opportunities will be focused on higher-level apprenticeships, which will equip even more of our young people with the skills that they need for the jobs of the future.
In order to attract young people to apprenticeships, we need to provide an incentive so that any decision that they make about employment is not coloured by short-term judgment—in other words, “How much am I going to get paid?” It surely cannot be right that somebody can hold down a job and be paid only £2.73 per hour. Despite the increase in the minimum wage for apprentices that was recently announced by the United Kingdom Government, apprentices are currently paid 72 per cent of the young person’s rate and 42 per cent of the adult minimum wage of £6.50. We already know that the adult minimum wage is inadequate, hence the calls for paying the living wage. How can it be acceptable to pay only £2.73 per hour to an apprentice?
The cabinet secretary has already called for the UK Government to bring payment for apprentices into line with the other bands of the national minimum wage. The apprentice rate was introduced on 1 October 2010 by the Conservative Government, reducing pay for those apprentices who previously would have been paid the higher young person’s rate. The Scottish Government has called for the devolution of the minimum wage, so that this place can set the level that helps our economy to grow.
Many companies pay higher wages to apprentices in order to retain them when they complete their training. It is in the organisation’s interests, having invested time and resources to train the apprentice, to meet their specific needs.
From my own experience, I am aware that many companies have for many decades trained apprentices and have generous pay scales in place. First-year apprentices are paid a third of the tradesman’s rate; second-year apprentices are paid a half; third-year apprentices are paid two thirds; and fourth-year apprentices are paid three quarters of a qualified tradesman’s rate. If we can set apprenticeship rates at similar levels in accordance with the best practice that already exists in many companies and organisations, young people and their parents will see the benefits of a vocational career.
Vocational education means that the young person is learning work-related practical skills and the knowledge that they need to understand how to use them. Many companies across the UK have signed up to the 5 per cent club charter, which encourages companies to employ 5 per cent of their workforce as apprentices and graduates. In national apprenticeship week next week, would it not be good for all small and medium-sized enterprises to aim for that target?
15:54
The story of my family and of what happened in the generation between my father and me is—I think—a pretty typical one for the time. My dad left school at 14 and did an apprenticeship at the SMT as a motor mechanic. His brothers did the same thing and had similar apprenticeships in engineering of one kind or another. Then, a generation later, I was the first one to go to university, to graduate and then to become a teacher—a professional career.
That is the story of so many families in the Scotland of that time, and yet it is not as simple as it seems. Although my dad was a motor mechanic, he spent his time with me teaching me maths for fun. My mother gave me a love of the written word and books, and my dad gave me a love of mathematics. It was that motor mechanic who sparked the interest in me that eventually led, if only fleetingly, to an ability at university to solve equations in Hilbert eigenspace.
My dad did that because he never stopped learning himself. When he was teaching me logarithms in the living room before bed, it was because he was working through those problems in the night-school classes that he was attending in order to continue to raise his levels of skill and qualification. As a result, he did not end his career as a motor mechanic but, rather, as a relatively senior civil servant and the manager of one of the biggest goods vehicle testing stations in Scotland. He ended up in a professional career by the route of an apprenticeship and I ended up in a professional career by the route of a university degree. We ended up pretty much in the same place, although the route was different.
That is not the only thing that was different, as there were other differences. One is that I threw it all up for this, which I think he never would have done. In terms of the other difference, the truth is that, although he was a motor mechanic, he could do much more than that: he could strip and rebuild a car his whole working life, but he could also rewire and replumb a house, and design, draw and make anything that we can conceive of in wood. As for me—I can just about change a plug.
My point is that, somewhere, someone in society somehow decided that I was better than him because he had been an apprentice and I had been to university. Somewhere, someone decided that my degree was better and worth more than his apprenticeship, which took him just as long to achieve as my degree did at university. That is nonsense, and it is a nonsense that has distorted the lives of too many young people in this country. It is a nonsense that does not exist in countries such as Germany, and it is a nonsense that we have to change. If apprenticeship week is about anything, let us not make it simply about celebrating apprenticeships; let us make it about beginning to rehabilitate them to rebuild the parity of esteem that they once had with academic qualifications.
Many things about the election disappointed me, but one of them was in the leaders’ debate when the First Minister was asked about a budget debate when we did a deal with the Scottish National Party in order to get a budget through—it was in 2009. When the First Minister was asked about what the deal was, she said that she could not remember the detail. However, the detail was an increase in the apprenticeship programme. She never forgot her university track record but she did forget that apprenticeship agreement, and that is disappointing. The truth is that it is not just time to remember apprenticeships but time to get real about them.
The cabinet secretary said that this SNP Government inherited 15,000 modern apprenticeships and now it has 25,000, but that is not true. Over 9,000 of those 25,000 apprenticeships are level 2 apprenticeships, which existed in 2007 but were not called apprenticeships. The truth is that, in 2006-07, there were 15,869 apprenticeships starts at level 3 or above and in 2013-14 there were 15,655. We have not actually increased the programme at all and the number of apprenticeships is lower than the high point back in 2004-5, when it was over 21,000. We need to get real about those apprenticeships.
When I met the previous First Minister in 2009 to negotiate that deal, he said, “We mustn’t let this become a numbers game where you pursue us about how many apprenticeships we’ve created. You have to accept my commitment to try to deliver on them.” I have never turned it into a numbers game, but the problem is that the Scottish Government itself has done that, and the numbers do not actually look that good.
It is true that all apprenticeships in Scotland are job related, but it is also true that, in England, there are 440,000 starts—far more than 10 times what we have—and there has been little or no progress on ideas such as hosted apprenticeships, agency apprenticeships or an articulated apprenticeship route.
You must draw to a close, please.
It is also true that the route through night school that my dad followed is now completely closed because of the changes in our college sector.
If we really want to do something for apprenticeship week, we should learn to understand apprenticeships, love their power to change lives, value them properly and stop just counting them and patting ourselves on the back.
16:00
I welcome this debate, which takes place in the build-up to next week’s Scottish apprenticeship week.
Over the years, I have met many of the training organisations in my constituency and many of the young people who are training towards a future career. Vocational training is important to me just as it is important to Iain Gray because, if my father had not become an apprentice at 15 with Balfour Kilpatrick in Paisley, his life and, in turn, my life might have taken a completely different turn. He was a young man from Ferguslie Park and he faced the many challenges that that community faces to this very day. He failed his 11-plus exam and was put on the academic scrap heap until he walked into the old buroo office in Paisley and was told to go and talk to that company. Later, he ran his own business in the field and he employed many of his friends from his own community.
The shorthand version of that very long story is that that was a defining moment in my father’s working life. That is not unusual, as Iain Gray told us, and no doubt there are many similar stories about how important vocational training and apprenticeships can be. I will skip the part of the story where he tried to pass his engineering skills on to his son, because that does not have quite as happy an ending. Because of his experience, however, I am aware of how important vocational training is and the opportunities that it offers young people in Scotland, and that is why I back the Scottish Government’s vision to develop a world-class vocational education system that matches our world-class higher education system.
There are many challenges, however. The interim report of the commission for developing Scotland’s young workforce states:
“we must move on from our ingrained and frankly ill-informed culture that somehow vocational education is an inferior option.”
That issue keeps coming up during the evidence that we are receiving at the Education and Culture Committee in our inquiry into educational attainment. There appears to be an uneven playing field with regard to academic achievement and vocational achievement. Many schools are focused purely on the academic and are not showing the necessary leadership in offering other careers for our young people.
When during one of the committee meetings I asked some of the business representatives about the inequalities in attainment and in the workplace, Phil Ford from the Construction Industry Training Board Scotland said:
“Some schools measure success by the number of pupils who go to university. We need to challenge that and promote vocational careers as being equally valid.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 21 April 2015; c 11.]
Terry Lanagan of the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland said:
“I believe that vocational education is as important to academic young people as it is to others ... The skills that are developed through work-based learning are important to everyone in society. One of the challenges is to persuade Scottish society—and particularly, but not exclusively, parents—to recognise the value of different routes to lifetime achievement.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 10 March 2015; c 12.]
That is the challenge that we are dealing with. Many parents see the academic route as the only way forward for their child. I have had parents come to me whose son wants to go on to a practical engineering course but, because he is quite bright and academic, he has been encouraged to go down the academic route. We need to find the right balance to improve the situation.
As the chairman of the commission for developing Scotland’s young workforce states in the foreword to its final report, another challenge is that only 30 per cent of Scottish businesses have any contact with education establishments. The Scottish Government has agreed to take on board many of the things that are said in the report, but that is still an issue—we still have a situation in which many schools and education establishments will not let third sector organisations or partner organisations of the authority in to help with attainment or, in this case, vocational education.
When we visited the Wester Hailes education centre, we were told that it had a connection with local colleges and about how it worked in the area to ensure that young people could go down a vocational route in secondary school. That is impressive, and it is the way forward.
The evidence that we have received also shows that there is a problem with the modern apprenticeship programme because many small businesses need to see a value in the training. They need to see not just that the young person is being taken away from their workplace but that they are getting something back as well. Although that may be only a perception, it is something that we need to address, because we need to support the small businesses that are involved in the modern apprenticeship programme and all forms of training. There are many businesses to which the programme could make a difference, but it needs to be relevant to them.
Last year, when I was involved in apprenticeship week, I went along to Muir Slicer in Paisley. The company has more than 300 modern apprenticeships across a range of sectors, and it boasts an achievement rate of over 90 per cent. While I was there, I met a young woman called Chelsea McGregor who might have dropped out and might not have had a job if it had not been for the modern apprenticeship programme. She told me what a difference it had made to her life and how it had moved things on. We must take on board what a lot of companies are saying, and we need to ensure that their perception is not the reality. We must work with them so that everyone has access to the opportunities that vocational training and apprenticeships offer.
In a similar way to Iain Gray, I can say that if my father had not walked into that buroo office I might not have been here today.
16:07
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on Scottish apprenticeship week. The commission on developing Scotland’s young workforce rightly highlighted the need for us to do all that we can to ensure that apprenticeships and vocational education receive the parity with other forms of education that they deserve. Not everyone is suited to further or higher education, and not even all those who are want to pursue that career pathway. It is, therefore, right that we take the opportunity this afternoon and throughout the next week to do all that we can to show how important and valuable an apprenticeship is.
In Scotland, there seems to be a level of snobbery when it comes to the aspirations that we have for our young people. When children are growing up, their parents or guardians dream of their going to university one day. I went to university after completing my sixth year at school, along with a number of my friends. When we were in second year at uni, only halfway through, our friends who had left school after their fourth year to start an apprenticeship were fully qualified and had been earning for four years.
I do not know anyone who did not complete their apprenticeship, but I know plenty of people who dropped out of university in the first couple of years. I do not know anyone who completed their apprenticeship who is not still working in their chosen industry, but I know plenty of people with degrees who have struggled to get a job in their chosen area. I do not know a single person who I grew up with and who went to university who now runs their own business, but I know plenty of people who completed their apprenticeships and are now successful small business owners.
Given how successful young people who complete apprenticeships can be, we need to redouble our efforts to ensure that there is equality of access for women, for people from our BME community and for disabled young people. There are clear gender inequalities in vocational education and apprenticeships. A 2013 report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission found that,
“Although men are increasingly moving into ‘traditionally female’ apprenticeship programmes, there is no evidence of an increase of women entering ‘traditionally male’ apprenticeships”.
That is a worrying statement. If the trend continues, the only possible outcome will be that the gender gap between male and female apprenticeship entrants, which sits at 59 per cent male and 41 per cent female, will grow wider.
There is also a massive disparity in the number of disabled young people who start an apprenticeship. Around 8 per cent of the population is disabled, but the percentage of modern apprentices reporting a disability has not even reached a single per cent in any of the past five years. I ask the minister in her closing speech to say how Skills Development Scotland plans to grow that number in order to encourage disabled young people, and how it will encourage employers to hire more disabled people.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission also commented:
“we need to harness the talents of all of Scotland’s people ... we are missing a trick by failing to maximise the potential of all Scotland’s people. We believe that the Government needs to demand greater effort from their contractors to drive up the representation of ethnic minorities and disabled people”.
The focus needs to shift from what young disabled people cannot do to what they can do, to take advantage of their talents and skills.
It has become clear to people in my generation, when we see how successful our peers who have completed apprenticeships have been, that we will not be dreaming purely of academic futures for our children, but we will be telling the stories of our friends who have completed apprenticeships and gone on to be successful business owners. We must do the work right now to ensure that our young women as well as our young men are encouraged to pursue an apprenticeship in any field, and that we are not locking out disabled or BME young people from one of the best opportunities that they will have in pursuing a career.
I support the motion and Siobhan McMahon’s amendment.
16:12
It is amazing how quickly apprenticeship week comes around each year. I am looking forward once again to hosting an event in the Parliament. It takes place next week, with the help of the Scottish Training Federation and Skills Development Scotland. I hope to see many members there. The event is not just an opportunity to talk about apprenticeships; it is an opportunity to meet some of the apprentices and to recognise some of their extraordinary skills. It is also an opportunity to hand out an award, so I hope that members will be there to see that.
Clearly, the Scottish Government is doing the right things. I was interested in Iain Gray’s comments about what happened in the past and the comparisons of the numbers. I do not want to get into that debate. What is important is that Skills Development Scotland is making sure that it knows what skills are required and doing its best to match the apprenticeships with the required skills. That is a pretty obvious piece of management across the nation, and I am grateful for it.
A number of businesses in my constituency take on apprentices. I will highlight two of them to the chamber and to ministers. Whittaker Engineering is a large, very specialised and very skilled business just outside Stonehaven, which provides extremely clever and well-engineered bits of kit to the oil industry. It has, I think, 23 modern apprentices, which gives members an idea of the scale of the operation. Whittakers is clued up on what to do with the apprentices. It is an extremely good and innovative employer, which I had the privilege to meet a few weeks back.
Even more recently, I went to a smaller business called Blaze Manufacturing Solutions in Laurencekirk. It, too, is a very sophisticated and skilled business, which provides fire and safety solutions largely, again, to the oil industry. When I asked about apprenticeships, Blaze made the point that, for a small business, it is difficult to find the information on apprenticeships. It just does not do that. It makes clever bits of kit; it does not have a large human resources department. Given the Government’s aspiration to get apprentices into small and medium-sized businesses, it might be wise for it to consider how the information is provided to businesses that are better at making widgets than they are at looking to see how such matters can be handled.
I heartily endorse Gordon MacDonald’s comments about pay rates, to which I have nothing to add, but I would like to bring to members’ attention the comments of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association with which, as convener of the cross-party group on construction, I have quite a lot to do. CECA is enthusiastic about foundation apprenticeships, which are being piloted in two regions. It feels that they are good, because they enable even younger folk to get involved. It seems to me that foundation apprenticeships offer a real opportunity to ensure that youngsters at school can get some real workplace experience and some understanding of what that industry might be about and of the opportunities that might exist in it by going somewhere once a week during their last two or three years at school rather than just when they leave school. Foundation apprenticeships will allow them to understand where such experience might lead and to gain some of the personal skills that are so important in getting on to an apprenticeship.
I note the comment that one of the supermarkets made that it recruits on the basis of personality and attitude, and that skills come afterwards. The ability to understand the workplace is important. Someone might have the right attitude, but they might not understand the workplace. Understanding what the world of work is about is extremely important to our youngsters. As an aside, I note that when my two children went on work placement as teenagers at school, they did not learn very much at all and it was not a terribly useful experience. I hope that foundation apprenticeships will turn out to be much more useful.
I turn to a subject that is a bit of a parliamentary hobby-horse of mine—research. In a relatively recent report, Audit Scotland made the point that it was quite difficult to evaluate the effectiveness of apprenticeships and, indeed, of many other of the training opportunities that we provide. Perhaps we need to encourage the Government to do more longitudinal studies on what happens in our society. Only by following a group of people—which will, necessarily, be relatively small; such a process costs money—through their teens, their 20s and maybe even into their 30s will we discover how effective such well-meaning and well-organised programmes are. Only by learning from that will we do better in the future.
In the meantime, I encourage the Government to carry on doing what it is doing. I think that foundation apprenticeships represent a serious opportunity and that they are to be commended. We need to promote gender balance, as has been mentioned; we need to improve as best we can the liaison between schools and industry; and we need to recognise that all apprenticeships build skills, build confidence and build our economy for the future.
16:18
As other members have done, I welcome the fact that we are having this debate in the run-up to Scottish apprenticeship week. In that context, I very much look forward to paying a visit to a local company in my constituency next week—Orkney Builders—to see at first hand the work that it does in providing apprenticeship opportunities for young people on the islands that I represent.
Orkney Builders is just one of a number of local building firms that, working alongside Orkney College, SDS and other partners, have shown a genuine commitment to apprenticeships and skills development over recent years. All those businesses recognise that such investment is in their interests and the interests of their sector, as well as the interests of the young individuals who take advantage of the high-quality, work-based training that is on offer.
There are undoubtedly good and positive stories to tell that illustrate the life-changing difference that apprenticeships can and do make, and which demonstrate the energising effect that apprenticeships can have on the businesses that take them on. Sophie Turner, the young apprentice stonemason who, as Mike MacKenzie mentioned, has been taken on by Orkney Islands Council, is a perfect illustration of that.
The commitment to step up the number of apprenticeships from 25,000 to 30,000 is one that Scottish Liberal Democrats genuinely support. However, as I have said previously and as Iain Gray pointed out earlier, it is not purely a numbers game. Overall numbers are important, but the quality of what is provided, where those opportunities are being created and—just as important—where and to whom they remain elusive are equally important.
I am sure that the cabinet secretary and the minister will have no difficulty in accepting that. As a result, although my remarks are set in the context of a general welcome of what has been achieved with modern apprenticeships and the commitment to going further, I feel that it is more valuable to spend my brief time this afternoon on those aspects that are still not working as they should.
A clear example of where opportunities are simply not being created is young people who have a disability, who were, in fact, the focus of my amendment for this afternoon’s debate. Although it was not selected, I am pleased that the issue has been picked up by Siobhan McMahon and Mary Scanlon in their amendments, which I am happy to support, and that it featured prominently in Roseanna Cunningham’s opening speech.
Both the Scottish Children’s Services Coalition and Inclusion Scotland have spelled out in stark terms the extent to which young disabled people are being let down when it comes to the creation of education and training opportunities. We all accept that that is simply not good enough. In a recent parliamentary answer to me on that very subject, Ms Cunningham explained:
“As all apprentices in Scotland must be employed and recruitment is, rightly, a matter for employers, we do not have figures that tell us how many disabled people have applied for a Modern Apprenticeship opportunity.”—[Written Answers, 8 May 2015; S4W-25385]
However, Skills Development Scotland’s figures show that the overall percentage of modern apprentices who are disabled is less than 0.4 per cent. Over the past five years, there has been no improvement in that situation, despite a dramatic increase in modern apprenticeship places. By no reckoning can that be considered acceptable, particularly when one considers that around 8 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds are disabled.
In England, around 8.7 per cent of modern apprenticeships are being taken up by those with a disability. Even allowing for differences in the schemes north and south of the border, such a discrepancy in performance is hard to fathom, much less justify, and I very much welcome the cabinet secretary’s willingness to drill down further and get a better understanding of why the discrepancy exists, particularly given the Scottish Children’s Services Coalition’s conclusion that
“Scotland fares worst of any of the Home Nations, indicating that major and concerted action is required.”
The consequences should come as a surprise to no one. As the SCSC goes on to say,
“young disabled people have a similar level of career aspiration at the age of 16 to their wider peer group. By the time they are 26, they are nearly 4 times more likely to be unemployed.”
Of course, the Government will argue that “concerted action” is taking place, with, for example, the allocation of £3 million following the publication of the Wood report, which identified progress in this area as essential. Although I join others in welcoming the cabinet secretary’s announcement in her opening remarks of a further £500,000, it is not clear what proportion of the overall funding will be allocated to the sorts of interventions that are likely to increase the numbers of disabled young people who successfully apply for modern apprenticeships. Perhaps the minister can address that matter in her summing up.
I suspect that ministers might also be reluctant to set targets for what Ms Cunningham called in her recent parliamentary answer “a matter for employers”. However, Sir Ian Wood was very clear in his call for
“a realistic but stretching improvement target to increase the number of young disabled people”
taking up modern apprenticeships to be introduced and reported on annually. Indeed, ministers appear to have accepted the principle of targets by agreeing to increase the number of modern apprenticeship starts from minority ethnic communities. It would be interesting to hear from Annabelle Ewing whether the Government is willing to take a similar approach to those with a disability and care leavers and, if not, why not.
Sir Ian Wood also recognised that there was nothing to be gained by willing the ends but not the means. He therefore recommended that:
“Funding levels to colleges and MA training providers should be reviewed and adjusted to reflect the cost of providing additional support to young disabled people, and age restrictions should be relaxed for those whose transition may take longer.”
Such steps are practical and sensible.
I was intrigued to read Inclusion Scotland’s comments about access by those with a disability to the Government’s employability fund. As the aim of the fund is
“to support activity that will help people to develop the skills they need to secure a job or progress to more advanced forms of training”,
one would be forgiven for thinking that the proportion of starts by people with a disability would be relatively high. In fact, the figure is only 2.5 per cent and, again, it would be helpful to hear from the minister about what “major and concerted action” is being taken to deliver the scale of change that we obviously need.
Although there are other issues that I could have highlighted, I think that on this occasion it was right to focus my brief remarks on how to increase the opportunities for those with a disability.
You must close, please.
The Government has a decent story to tell on modern apprenticeships, but as the Equality and Human Rights Commission has observed:
“we are missing a trick by failing to maximise the potential of all Scotland’s people.”
Nowhere is that more evident than in relation to those with a disability, which is why Scottish Liberal Democrats will support the motion and both amendments later this afternoon.
16:24
We are here to celebrate the opportunities for people who are going into apprenticeships. I have listened very carefully to other members on areas in which opportunities are perhaps not as equal. There is a perception out there that people with disabilities perhaps cannot achieve the same as those without a disability. However, we have to look at the opportunities that exist.
In my constituency, there is a wide and varied range of opportunities for people in the apprenticeship programmes. To be perfectly honest, the majority of those opportunities would be open and available to people with a disability. I am thinking about the hospitality sector, for instance; there are not many areas of work in the hospitality sector that people with disabilities could not achieve. There are opportunities in the outdoors. I accept that there may be health and safety issues to prevent people, depending on their disability, from doing some work in forestry, but there are opportunities. For instance, the Foxlane social enterprise in my constituency provides opportunities for people in market gardening.
Let us have a conversation with people about what jobs they would like to do. I know that the Royal National Institute of Blind People, for instance, has an employment officer and that it has had people working in different parts of Scotland for many years; in fact, I used to work alongside them prior to coming to Holyrood. Despite that, we still do not seem to get the numbers into employment. Why is that? Is it to do with perception?
I believe that there are opportunities and that there are jobs for people from all sectors and all walks of life. The Scottish Parliament’s apprenticeship programme, for instance, looked very carefully at selection to ensure that people from different socioeconomic backgrounds were given opportunities. People from ethnic or disability backgrounds were considered. Those opportunities exist, but it is up to the employer to make them available and to go through a selection process.
Much has been said about degrees and vocational training. I do not have a degree or vocational training. Mr Gray mentioned his ability to change a plug. My ability to change a plug always depended on the availability of my daughter when she was three to tell me the colours of the wires—thankfully, she knew her colours. It is not that the opportunity was not available for me to do certain things; I simply chose a different pathway.
At one point, I worked in an engineering factory. A health and safety person came in and said, “I’m sorry—actually, we think that it is too dangerous for you to be here.” I believe that there are now measures in certain factories that mean that people who are blind or have different disabilities can work in those sectors. That is fine, but we have not moved a great deal in the past 40-odd years in creating places for people with disabilities.
The cabinet secretary mentioned access to work. Access to work support is available when a person is in work. It becomes available when a person is in employment, but we need to ensure that it is also available while people are looking for work, are going through training or are on an apprenticeship programme. If a person needs a particular piece of kit to ensure that they can do the job just as well as someone else can, that kit should be made available. The person may well be able to do the job, but if they do not have the right facility to enable them to do it, the opportunity will be denied.
It comes down to fundamentals. We are always letting ourselves down because we do not look at the basics, the start, the opportunity and what the barriers are.
Siobhan McMahon was quite right to mention women in work, which is something that we looked at when she and I were on the Equal Opportunities Committee. I was talking recently to one of the construction directors at the new Alford school campus in my constituency, which is still undergoing construction. He told me that he was pulling his hair out because he needs people to come into the construction industry and is offering apprenticeships, but when he goes to schools to speak to young people, none of the girls wants to come and work for him. That is not because he is not a nice guy but because they just do not want to go into the construction industry.
Sometimes the jobs and opportunities are there, but we need to ensure that the right technology is there and that certain perceptions are knocked on the head so that people can go into different types of jobs and get away from the stereotyping that we still seem to have.
16:30
It is a pleasure to talk about Scottish apprenticeship week 2015. I am glad to see that the target set for 20,000 modern apprenticeship starts each year is on track and may be exceeded this year. The young people involved see the programme as a positive experience, with 98 per cent saying that they found it useful.
The role of Scottish apprenticeship week is to celebrate the success of the scheme, but we should also be able to reflect on the things that can be done better. Instead of only increasing the number of modern apprenticeships, we need to start looking at quality and equality. I have been in discussions with Skills Development Scotland, which has informed me of the progress in modern apprenticeship starts from minority communities, with the proportion rising from 1.1 to 1.4 per cent. As ethnic minorities make up 6 per cent of the population aged between 18 and 24, that is still a major underrepresentation. Analysis by the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights of apprentices in training on 31 March 2014 found that a young person from an ethnic minority background was eight times less likely to be in a modern apprenticeship than a young white Scottish person was.
I welcome the creation of the key performance indicators to increase the number of modern apprenticeship starts from minority ethnic communities to equal the population share by 2021. However, that is a long-term target and I want to see evidence of the political will to achieve it. I want to know what the Scottish Government will do in the next six months, rather than in the next six years.
I understand that Skills Development Scotland is beginning to work with BEMIS—Black & Ethnic Minority Infrastructure Scotland—to increase participation by ethnic minorities. In my discussions with SDS, I raised my concerns that BEMIS does not currently have the capacity or ability to deliver such a challenging target, especially on a Scotland-wide basis. I do not mean any disrespect to BEMIS as an organisation when I say that.
I am not going to let it be a box-ticking exercise. I will not allow the Scottish Government to get away with giving some money to one ethnic minority organisation so that it feels as if it has done something in that area. I do not want to see a few events around Scotland, inviting the usual suspects from mosques and community associations to eat and be talked to, with no real engagement, no real change and no real outcomes. Those symbolic samosa events are no longer acceptable.
I want the Government to be proactive. There is no point in just asking people to apply. What we need is support for minority ethnic people to get the skills that they need to apply for apprenticeships or jobs in the first instance.
I listened carefully to Hanzala Malik’s comments and I understand that, although he welcomes some things, he has some concerns and criticisms. I would like to hear one concrete thing that he thinks we could be doing that we are not.
I could give the cabinet secretary so many. If the Presiding Officer gave me the time, I could give her examples all day.
Can he give me one thing?
To satisfy her appetite I will give her one thing that the Government can do. It could create an organisation with a structure that speaks to young minority community people, to train them to be able to apply for jobs, go for interviews and go for promotion. There are so many ethnic minority people unemployed just now that it is unreal.
The fact that only 1.4 per cent of people who get places on apprenticeships are from ethnic minorities, when 6 per cent of the young population is from an ethnic minority, is shameful. I can give other figures: 1 per cent of police and less than 1 per cent in the fire service. Shall I go on, or is that enough?
Let me try to help the Government, if I may. I want the Scottish Government to be proactive. I want it to give me interim targets and quarterly reports, to show me what ethnic minority people are achieving in those organisations. I want to see Scotland do better for its minority communities. For example, there is no infrastructure in places such as Aberdeen or Fife. Why not? Why are we not creating that? When will the Government do that? How long will we have these pakora and samosa meetings with no results? I want to see results. Please, for God’s sake, do something for the minority community.
16:37
I reiterate our support for the Scottish Government’s motion and the priority that is placed on this very important issue. I add my support for Mary Scanlon’s amendment, which raises some important additional issues, and for the Labour amendment.
Some interesting discussions are taking place in apprenticeship policy just now, in the context of both the changing economic and educational environment, to which the cabinet secretary referred in her opening remarks, and the analysis of the available data and how the success to date of the modern apprenticeship programme is measured, which is important. That was very much the topic at the recent meeting of the cross-party group on colleges and universities, at which those in the front line of the provision of apprenticeships were very clear that there must be a change of approach.
There must be a qualitative dimension to the apprenticeship programme, rather than just a concentration on increasing numbers. Iain Gray raised that point, as well. Mary Scanlon rightly pointed to the achievement side of modern apprenticeships, which is a qualitative dimension. Nigel Don made an important point about the provision of the skills that are important to the demands of the economy, which is also part of the qualitative dimension, rather than part of the numbers games.
Tony Coultas and Diane Greenlees of SDS argue that much better and deeper engagement between employers and learners is necessary to ensure that learners are much better prepared for the world of work. They strongly argue that that must take place at an earlier age. I note that Jim McColl said the same thing earlier this week.
The general feeling is that the curriculum for excellence and the establishment of a new regional college structure are good things, but it was pointed out that one of the most important things that the larger colleges can do is ensure that they can deliver when it comes to the demands of the very specific local economies. If you listen to college principals just now, you can hear that they stress that point. There are a few question marks around that.
Assessment of the value of different levels of apprenticeship is important, as is assessment of the different skills-based learning that they entail and how to articulate between different schools, colleges and universities.
Generally speaking, it is a good picture. There was great praise for the ambition to develop the 28 pathfinders across the five sectors by August 2015, and for the fact that that will benefit 28 cohorts of pupils, which matches the ambition to involve all local authorities. As I understand it, the Scottish Government’s target in that regard is August 2016.
There are clearly successful examples of local authorities working with education establishments and with business and industry. Those who spoke to the cross-party group told us about West Lothian, Fife and the Forth valley and spoke strongly about the innovative aspect of that.
We have not covered all the relevant issues, because there has not been time in this debate about apprenticeships, but would the member accept that the growth in the regional invest in young people groups, which will be specifically employer-led, will help to deal with some of the more localised regional issues that she is referring to?
I accept that, but the point that has been made by two or three college principals is that the larger colleges have to cover a much wider area, and they are anxious to retain the individual aspects of their local colleges, particularly in areas that are removed from Edinburgh and Glasgow. Naturally, they are concerned about the level of cuts to courses that provide education in particular to people who are further removed from the workforce. That view came through strongly at the cross-party group.
The point about disability has been mentioned by several members, including Siobhan McMahon and Liam McArthur, and I believe that the cabinet secretary was questioned on the matter by Gavin Brown in a debate at the end of April. Not only do we have to address the gap between what is happening in Scotland and what is happening elsewhere, we need to address why that situation has arisen.
The other important issue concerns the lessons from abroad. Iain Gray was right to say that there are different approaches in countries such as Germany, Denmark and Switzerland, which have been flagged up by employers as successfully delivering long-term sustainability in apprenticeship involvement. The issue of cultural change is relevant in that regard, too.
Overall, this issue is important. I will finish on the point that George Adam made about the need to ensure that there is not a divide between vocational and academic training. The two go together. Increasingly, given the changing nature of the economy and education, they must complement each other, because they are not separate. The more we can do that, the better we will able to get over the unfortunate divide that arises when people view them as different things.
We are happy to support the Scottish Government’s motion and the Labour amendment.
16:42
I am pleased to report that I am in the comfortable position of supporting the Government’s motion, Mary Scanlon’s amendment and, of course, my colleague Siobhan McMahon’s amendment.
Many members have talked about their experience of a relative gaining access to an apprenticeship. Unfortunately, my experience is that my father was never offered an apprenticeship. As a result, his working life was hard, brutal and poorly paid. In that context, I applaud the efforts of everyone who is involved in the provision of modern apprenticeships and apprenticeships of all types.
I identify myself strongly with the points that were made by Siobhan McMahon and Hanzala Malik about equality, fairness and access. As Iain Gray outlined in his speech, in Scottish apprenticeship week it is important that we realise the true worth of apprentices to our society and our future development. I also acknowledge that Nigel Don outlined the benefits that we gain from apprentices, and the contribution that they make in later life. Other members outlined more fully that experience.
What can we do to develop a better environment for our apprentices? The cabinet secretary mentioned that she has encouraged employers. I know, having gone around South Scotland and elsewhere in the country, that both medium-sized and larger employers have said that they need confidence that they will, when they take on an apprentice, be in business long enough to see that apprenticeship commitment fulfilled. In that regard, the cabinet secretary could spend some time looking at how local procurement processes operate to the disadvantage of local companies; if those companies could compete better and obtain contracts, more apprentices would be taken on.
Those same employers have also shared their views on the notion that apprentices can be shared between companies in order to offer some form of support to the young people—men and women—who seek to complete apprenticeships. Many employers resist that notion and feel that by sharing apprentices, they will not deliver the quality of experience and the breadth of knowledge that are required to develop apprentices for the future.
The employers also questioned the level of preparation among young people who come forward to be considered for apprenticeships, in particular, in building and engineering. The latest statistics on Scottish attainment that reveal a dip in literacy and numeracy performance are a challenge. More work needs to be done by the Government to ensure that our young people are prepared for employment.
The Government has, understandably, focused on funding apprenticeship opportunities for young people. Employers have reported to me that, as a result of that focus, funding goes primarily to people who are under 21. Increasingly, the experience in the employment environment is that people over the age of 21 have developed a background and so—to use the vernacular—the penny has dropped and they want to contribute to working life and so seek to access apprenticeships. Unfortunately, the support and grants that might enable that are not present to the extent that they are for people under 21.
There has been much comment from small and large employers about the inability of people who come forward. Young people have skills, but they have not been developed in relation not only to their technical ability but to the element of work that is about selling ideas and products. A great deal has been said by employers about needing schools and education to pay attention to development of the character of future employees so that they can play their full part.
There is a real desire among employers for the Government to prepare our young people for work by promoting the range of apprenticeship opportunities—particularly, as was mentioned earlier, the traditional apprenticeship opportunities. We need to do more within the building and engineering context.
The minister would do well to encourage employers to play their full part by mentoring in schools and by offering work experience in order to increase their involvement in developing employment opportunities for our young people in the future.
At the end of the debate, the importance of apprenticeships for the future has been acknowledged throughout the chamber. This is not only about ensuring that young people do not have the kind of experience of work that my father had; it is—which is just as important, and more important for many—about needing our young people in Scotland to participate fully in the employment environment. We need to develop our competitive edge in a fast-changing economy and a fast-changing world.
We should not have any complacency about how well we are currently doing; we could do much better. In the year that lies ahead of us, Parliament seeks from the minister and the cabinet secretary a hunger to acknowledge the shortcomings in our current service delivery and stronger development of promotion for the future.
16:49
The first thing that I should do is move the Government’s motion, which the cabinet secretary omitted to do earlier—I am happy to do so on her behalf.
The debate has been positive and constructive, and I thank all members for their contributions. Many suggestions, broad-brush and technical, have been made. Ministers, along with officials, always look closely at what was said, and we will be happy to pick up anything that seems to suggest a sensible way forward.
I take this opportunity to say that we are happy to support the Labour amendment. We are, however, not in a position to support the Conservative amendment, not because of any substantive issues that it covers but from a technical perspective regarding how the amended motion would read.
Modern apprenticeships are vital to our ambitions to offer young people the opportunity to gain the skills that they need to take up rewarding and fulfilling jobs. Modern apprenticeships are also vital in delivering the skilled workforce that our employers need in order that we can secure long-term economic growth.
Over the past three years, we have supported more than 77,000 modern apprenticeship starts; I am proud of this Government’s record of growing the programme since 2007. Our commitment to expanding the modern apprenticeship programme aligns with the wider reform of vocational education across the entire learning and skills landscape.
The minister has repeated the Government’s claim about expanding the programme. I pointed out the numbers in my speech and said—as I say now—that it is evident in comparing like with like that the programme has not really expanded. I do not mean that as a criticism; it is the reality from which we must seek to move forward. Will the minister acknowledge that that is the case?
I say to Iain Gray—indeed, he made this point in his contribution—that the previous skillseekers programme at level 2 was a non-employed programme. The people who are in level 2 modern apprenticeships are all employed. That is the crucial difference and that is what we are talking about when we talk about the success of our modern apprenticeship programme.
In our refreshed youth employment strategy “Developing the Young Workforce”, which was published in December last year, we set out our ambition to improve employment prospects for all our young people. Linking the needs of young people and the needs of our employers is central—as many members have said today—to the seven-year change programmes that will seek to remove the structural problems that led to the high levels of youth unemployment that we have seen in the past. However, we cannot deliver that strategy on our own, so we will continue to work with employers, training providers, local authorities, colleges and third sector organisations to deliver on our ambition of a 40 per cent reduction in youth unemployment by 2021.
There has—quite rightly—been a lot of discussion today about equalities and how the modern apprenticeship programme is not currently working for some groups of people. The commission for developing Scotland’s young workforce highlighted the fact that underrepresentation impacts on the modern apprenticeship programme, as it does across vocational education and the wider labour market. Those are complex issues, so simply changing provision will not fully address the underlying issues in our labour market. However, I am sure that the funding that the cabinet secretary announced today to support the final development and implementation of a modern apprenticeship equalities action plan will be welcomed, because we need to build consensus on what all partners must do to address underrepresentation across vocational education.
I certainly welcome the funding. Does the minister agree that, in trying to address the equality circle, we should look more closely at the education and careers advice on the opportunities that are available for young people when they are leaving education and moving into work?
I thank Dennis Robertson for his constructive intervention. We certainly intend—it is part of our strategy—that young people will be given much better information while they are at school about what the world of work entails. That information will be provided to all young people, including those who may require particular support, and we would wish it to happen at a much earlier age, including—as Sir Ian Wood strongly recommended—in primary school.
With a broad brush, I believe that, from a structural perspective, which is the background to our endeavours, we are already starting to see a bit of success in the breaking down of the old distinctions between vocational and academic learning. Many members made forceful points on that issue, including Iain Gray, who spoke about the importance that his father placed on education when he was growing up. That is a trait common to many households the length and breadth of Scotland. It is incumbent on all of us to do what we can to continue to break down the long-standing bogus distinction that somehow the vocational and the academic are in competition with each other; rather, they complement each other.
We are committed to doing all that we can to make it clear that the offer of a modern apprenticeship to a young person so that they can get a job and be paid while gaining an industry-recognised qualification is a win-win—it is a win for the young person or apprentice concerned, and it is a win for the employer.
This morning, I had the pleasure of visiting CCG, which is a construction manufacturing company in Cambuslang. In speaking to many young apprentices, I was struck by their enthusiasm to do a good job and their appreciation that they have been given an opportunity to gain the skills that they need to start to make their way in the world of work, while—importantly for them—earning a wage. [Interruption.]
Just a moment, please, minister. There is far too much noise in the chamber. Could members who have just come into the chamber please do the minister the courtesy of listening to her?
Thank you, Presiding Officer.
In response to the many important points that have been made about gender segregation, I say that, among the excellent young people whom I met this morning—I promised to say this, so I am going to say it—were Hannah Muir, who is a third-year apprentice plumber, and Nadia Swift, who is a second-year apprentice plasterer. They both prove very well that there are no longer such things as boys’ jobs and girls’ jobs. I wish both those young women the best of luck in their future careers. I recognise that there is much work still to do in tackling stereotyping of whatever kind, although I hope that we are moving in the right direction.
I will pick up on a few other points that were made. Siobhan McMahon mentioned the kind of delivery partners with which it is appropriate to work, but my view is that it is important to work with a range of partners, as we are doing. We work with all those who have a role in ensuring that we do the best for young people by ensuring that they have the opportunities that should be available to them.
Mary Scanlon mentioned the societal issues that we face with regard to gender segregation. It is important to stress that the developing the young workforce programme focuses on promotion to young people of a diverse workforce. As I said earlier, that includes promotion in primary schools.
Will the minister take an intervention?
I am afraid that I have very limited time and I wish to get through a few other comments.
Gordon MacDonald highlighted the good work that is going on in his constituency in Edinburgh. George Adam emphasised the importance of ensuring that small businesses are involved in the modern apprenticeship project—a point that was echoed by many members, including Nigel Don. We are working with local authorities and small businesses to try to ensure that they have the information that they need to decide whether they are in a position to take on a young apprentice. The regional invest in young people groups will also have a role to play.
Much has been made of the position with respect to underrepresented groups. As I have said, the cabinet secretary’s announcement of the intention to proceed with an equalities action plan will, I hope, help to address the many real concerns of members. I undertake to keep Parliament advised of progress on the equalities action plan.
With respect to Hanzala Malik’s point about our determination to improve the position of black and minority ethnic communities, I say gently to him that we work with a range of partners including BEMIS and other groups. I recently met Davidson Chademana, who is a representative of the black workers’ committee of the Scottish Trades Union Congress. We take the issue most seriously, and are working to make the necessary progress.
In conclusion, I say that I very much look forward to celebrating apprenticeship week with other members. I hope that members will engage in the process and take the opportunity to see for themselves how modern apprenticeships are benefiting our young people.
That concludes—
On a point of order, Presiding Officer.
Given that we are all about to vote on amendments, can the minister explain the technical reason why the Government is unable to accept my amendment? I think that that will be helpful to all of us.
It is entirely up to the Government whether it wishes to accept the amendment. That concludes the debate.
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