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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, February 3, 2011


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-2873)

Later today, I will have meetings to take forward the Government’s programme for Scotland.

Iain Gray

As of Tuesday, 6,000 convicted criminals a year will escape jail because the First Minister pushed through legislation against short prison sentences. Kenny MacAskill has said that it is fine, because those convicted criminals are just “daft laddies”. Does the First Minister agree?

The First Minister

First, let us have a look at the phrase “pushed through”. This is a minority Government, which—as Iain Gray knows—has to appeal for support to gain a majority, particularly in legislative terms. The reason why the criminal justice system has been changed in Scotland is because a majority in this Parliament believed that that was the right direction to take.

At various times, Iain Gray says to us that we must follow the will of the Parliament, but what he means is that we must follow the will of the Parliament when it is convenient for him. Changes to other aspects of the justice system have, of course, been carried through by this Administration. The delivery of 1,000 extra police officers on the streets of the communities of Scotland was carried through with support from the Conservative party.

The significant point about the penal changes that have resulted in the lowest level of crime in Scotland for 30 years—whether it be the move to comprehensive and strong community sentences or the 1,000 extra officers on the streets of Scotland—is that none of the changes has been supported by the Labour Party.

Iain Gray

It is all very well having 1,000 additional police officers, but when they arrest criminals, what happens to those criminals matters. Last year, 736 of those 6,000 “daft laddies” were violent offenders, 148 were knife criminals and 17 were sex offenders. This year they will not go to jail at all; they will do community service. We read this morning that they might get “30 days’ hard knitting”. Can the First Minister tell me how many criminals who are given those arduous sentences ever even complete them?

The First Minister

It is not, as Iain Gray puts it, “all very well” that there are 1,000 extra police officers on the streets of Scotland; it is all very important that these officers are protecting people across the country. Not a single one of those officers would have been employed if we had listened to the Labour Party. It is also not the case that a 30-year low in recorded crime is merely incidental. For the first time in recorded crime statistics, the fear of crime is dropping across Scottish communities. My belief is that that is because of the additional officers that have been delivered by this Administration, not one of whom was supported by the Labour Party.

On the presumption against sentences of three months or less, that policy has gained the support not only of parties across this Parliament: we also see when we look down south to England that—if my memory serves me right—the new leader of the Labour Party said at, or around the time of, his party conference that when Ken Clarke brings forward proposals to avoid short sentences, the Labour Party should not show knee-jerk opposition. If Ed Miliband is not showing knee-jerk opposition to penal reform in the Westminster Parliament, why is it that all that Iain Gray has to offer week after week in this Parliament is knee-jerk opposition?

Iain Gray

What is important is that the justice system backs those police officers and backs the public. Even those who agree with the First Minister with regard to short sentences—I do not—would tell him that the policy will work only if the community justice system is working, too. The fact is that 40 per cent of those who are sentenced to community service do not finish their sentences. In some parts of Scotland, the figure is as high as two thirds. The community sentence system is not working, but the First Minister is cramming thousands more offenders into it. Everyone knows that many will get off scot free. That is why the First Minister is seen by so many as “Soft-touch Salmond”.

Does the First Minister know how many times, under his Government, someone has to be convicted before they actually go to jail?

The First Minister

I point out to Iain Gray that he cannot just sweep away the fact that he believes that the 1,000 extra officers are not being backed up in the judicial system, for two reasons. One is that if it had been up to the Labour Party they would not have existed at all—they would not have been there to be backed up by the judicial system. Secondly, as we saw in the Public Petitions Committee’s debate on knife crime, and in other evidence that has been submitted to that committee, that police officers such as John Carnochan—who said, “I’ve been a cop for 34 years”—support the direction of travel of this Parliament and this Government with regard to the judicial system.

We should judge these matters by results, and we have the ability to do so. The approach of this Government to crime and punishment in Scotland has delivered a 30-year low in recorded crime and 1,000 extra officers in the streets and communities of Scotland. It also recognises the futility of short sentences, after which the vast majority of offenders reoffend, and it recognises the hope that is represented by community justice, after which the majority of offenders do not reoffend.

The Labour Party’s position is ridiculous and impossible and does not serve the people of Scotland.

Iain Gray

As ever, the First Minister has no answer to any of the questions. I have freedom of information figures that show that some first-time prisoners had 40 previous convictions. They had not not reoffended; they had reoffended 40 times before they went to jail. Hundreds of them had 10, 20 or 30 previous convictions before they ever faced jail. They do not go to jail, and some of them do not even turn up for community service, and all of that happened before the Scottish Government abolished thousands of short sentences. It is not right.

Does the First Minister understand that it is the law-abiding public who are being treated like “daft laddies” by him?

The First Minister

I believe that

“The Commission recommends that, if the Act”—

that is, the Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Act 2007—

“is to be implemented, its implementation must follow the implementation of this Commission's other recommendations and the achievement of a reduction in the short sentence prison population”.

That, of course, is a quotation from the report of Henry McLeish, the former Labour First Minister of Scotland.

We should compare the position of Henry McLeish—a former First Minister, who experienced these matters in office, saw the futility of short sentences and made a recommendation that was backed by a majority of this Parliament—with the position of Iain Gray, who has nothing constructive to offer and is left flailing about in the face of the fact of there being 1,000 extra police officers on the streets of Scotland who are delivering a 30-year low in reported crime, and of the progressive reform of the criminal justice system of Scotland is making this country a safer place, under this Government.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S3F-2874)

I hope to meet the Prime Minister in the next couple of weeks.

Is 30 days’ knitting a tough community sentence?

The First Minister

Annabel Goldie should have the flexibility to adjust her question after hearing Iain Gray’s efforts. Of course, perhaps, after hearing the Labour leader, she thought that she could do rather better.

I believe in the reality of a 30-year low in recorded crime in Scotland and I believe that the reforms that were passed by a majority of this Parliament will further improve the criminal justice situation in Scotland.

Annabel Goldie

I point out a headline in a paper this morning: “Sentenced to 30 days’ hard knitting”. I inform the First Minister that two knitting needles, a ball of wool and a cup of tea are not a tough community sentence. In Scotland, we call that a knitting bee.

I have to give credit to the First Minister for at least acknowledging that, because of the Scottish Conservatives, we have delivered 1,000 extra police in Scotland, but the point is that the Scottish National Party is putting all of that at risk with its soft-touch-Scotland approach—more tagging, less jail, the failure to end automatic early release, and the scrapping of short prison sentences. Is not the reality that all the First Minister’s tough talk about tough community sentences is just candy floss and flim-flam, and that under the SNP Government there is no such thing as a tough community sentence?

The First Minister

I suppose the real difficulty for Annabel Goldie and, indeed, for her back benchers is the recognition that Ken Clarke, as a Tory Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor in a coalition Administration south of the border, is now pursuing exactly the same policies—

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

We do not take points of order during questions.

I think that I understand why Annabel Goldie did not want to hear this point, but nonetheless—[Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister

I think the difficulty for Annabel Goldie is that a Tory Lord Chancellor in a coalition Administration is pursuing exactly the same policies against short sentences and in favour of community justice as this Administration is pursuing in Scotland. Why would that be the case if he had not analysed the position and come to the conclusion that he should do that? Is he being overridden by the Liberal Democrats in the coalition or is he just a sensible Lord Chancellor who is trying to improve the justice situation in England, just as this Administration has pursued it in Scotland?

As the First Minister knows, I am responsible for my party’s justice policy in Scotland, and the First Minister is responsible for the justice system in Scotland. Is not it time that he started doing the job?

The First Minister

I think that this is a case of short memories, and not just of short sentences. At last week’s question time, Annabel Goldie asked me about a policy that is being pursued by the coalition Government south of the border with regard to cancer drugs. This week, she is complaining when I refer to another coalition policy south of the border that includes the commonsense approach that short prison sentences do not work. They do not protect the public, they do not serve society, and that is why the Scottish Government’s justice policies, which are supported by a majority of the Parliament, are the way forward for Scotland.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-2875)

I met the Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday at the economic summit between the three devolved Administrations and the United Kingdom Government.

Tavish Scott

Yesterday, the Scottish Government said that it would transfer social workers to the national health service under Government direction. The Government also plans to scrap local fire and police boards and to put them under Government direction. Council tax levels are directed nationally, school buildings have been given to a quango under ministerial control, and even local salt stocks for our roads are now decided nationally. Will the First Minister tell us whether there are any other areas of responsibility that he plans to remove from local government?

The First Minister

I cannot believe that Tavish Scott is actually disputing the effectiveness of having the resilience supply of salt stocks held nationally during the recent weather emergency in Scotland; nor, I hope, would he dispute the obvious advantage of having a resilience supply of vaccine for the flu virus being held centrally. Tavish Scott must understand that we judge such matters in terms of effective government and what delivers for the people of Scotland. In both of those examples, having that central resilience supply was obviously in the best interests of Scotland.

Instead of taking a predisposed position on these matters, will Tavish Scott try to address them in terms of what delivers the public services to which the people of Scotland are entitled?

Tavish Scott

I thought that I was asking the questions, not being asked them.

Surely, even after that question, the First Minister will concede that there is an element of chaos in the Government’s plans for elderly people. Yesterday, Lord Sutherland, who reviewed free personal care a couple of years ago, said:

“The time for talking is over”,

but in the same press release the Minister for Public Health and Sport announced the setting-up of a new group as a first step to beginning discussions. As we know, elderly people are still waiting for the care that they need, but today 38,000 social work staff who look after elderly people across Scotland cannot concentrate on their jobs because yesterday their futures were thrown into doubt by a footnote in a Government press release. When are those hard-working local staff going to get answers about their futures?

The First Minister

If I may say so, Tavish Scott made an error in not giving Lord Sutherland the benefit of quoting his full remarks. Let me do so, for the chamber. He said:

“Lead commissioning provides the best and quickest way of achieving an integrated care system, and I believe the Scottish Government's approach is the right one.

It avoids the need for new legislation and wholesale re-organisation, which means improvements can begin to be made straight away.

The time for talking is over. It is now time just to get on with it.”

That is what Lord Sutherland said, in backing this Government’s approach.

Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)

As I have written to the First Minister on this matter, he will be aware that thousands of my constituents are protesting at the proposed siting in Coatbridge of a pyrolysis incinerator, which was refused planning permission by the council. Given that under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997 it is within Alex Salmond’s Government’s power to refuse the developer’s current appeal, will he do so and put the interests of the people of Coatbridge before Shore Energy’s private profits?

If Elaine Smith has been looking up the acts, she must know that I cannot give a judgment or determination on a matter of ministerial discretion in this way.

Trump?

If Mike Rumbles wants to raise other matters, he should catch the Presiding Officer’s eye. He can then ask a question, to which he will get a robust answer.

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

As the First Minister will be aware, the mortality rate for death from Clostridium difficile at the Vale of Leven hospital has been revised upwards. Instead of the 55 people affected and 18 deaths that were originally reported, the public inquiry is now considering 60 people affected and 38 deaths—a staggering number that confirms that this has been the worst outbreak in the United Kingdom. Does the First Minister agree that further steps need to be taken to ensure that C diff is recorded appropriately on death certificates? Is he able to advise the chamber whether he or the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing has been told of the further delay to the conclusion of the public inquiry?

The First Minister

This independent public inquiry, which was established by the cabinet secretary, is live and on-going and must be given its full latitude to examine all the issues in this tragic and serious case. Although we accept that the public inquiry has that job and remit, I am sure that Jackie Baillie will be the very first to acknowledge that C difficile cases have been halved in Scotland, which is a welcome improvement in what is a tragic and difficult condition.


Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations (Meetings)



4. To ask the First Minister what discussions have taken place with representatives of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, given the likelihood of job losses in the third sector due to budgetary constraints. (S3F-2878)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Christine Grahame will be aware of the importance that the Scottish Government places on our relationship with the SCVO. We are in regular contact with the organisation. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth met it and a range of third sector organisations to discuss the independent budget review, and on 26 January officials attended the SCVO policy committee.

The Westminster cuts have had an impact across the third sector and we are committed to working with the sector to protect services wherever we can. I am pleased that the SCVO is well represented on the Christie commission, given the vital role that the third sector plays in providing vital services, especially for the disadvantaged.

Christine Grahame

The First Minister will be aware that, in England, citizens advice bureaux are being closed at a time when—as there is in Scotland—there is increasing demand for advice about debt, changes to the benefits system and eligibility for benefits, and homelessness. As CABx in Scotland are substantially funded by local authorities, will he enter into discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on the matter, given that money that is spent on keeping CABx doors open is, in my opinion, spending to save by preventing ill health, family break-ups and loss of homes?

The First Minister

That point is hugely important. CABx provide a valuable service to communities and, indeed, to individuals throughout Scotland and I hope that members across the chamber will join me in putting on the record appreciation for their work.

The Scottish Government is working with local authorities on protecting services from the impact of the spending cuts as well as on other measures such as the increase in VAT, which will, of course, cost Scotland more than £1 billion over the next year. That is why the spending settlement with COSLA for local government for 2011-12 will see a reduction in revenue of only 2.6 per cent. The settlement is hugely difficult, but it is dramatically better than what is being experienced elsewhere in these islands. It is better than what local government south of the border and all the other portfolios that are covered by the Scottish budget, with the exception of the health portfolio, will receive. I believe that the health portfolio needs special protection.

Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)

The First Minister has, of course, disregarded the fact that there was pressure on the sector before the coalition cuts came in. Those cuts are now compounding the pressures. He also disregarded the fact that local government may find its savings disproportionately through the voluntary sector. Is he aware of the concerns of those who represent workers in the voluntary sector not just about the huge pressure on those who face losing their jobs, but on those who will remain in post and will have to pick up extra responsibilities in order to deliver the services that they care about? Will he agree to meet representatives of voluntary sector workers and their unions to consider urgently what he can do to support them in these difficult times?

The First Minister

I have set out the regular discussions that we have. We have had discussions very recently, and I would be happy to meet the SCVO and associate unions at any time.

Johann Lamont slipped in the issue of coalition cuts. It is absolutely true that the coalition Government has introduced a budget for next year that involves £1,300 million of cuts in Scottish public spending, but there was, of course, £500 million of cuts in the year before last year—that is the reality—and we know from the acknowledgement by the Labour Party leader, Ed Miliband, that Labour was planning two thirds of the cuts that Johann Lamont now denounces. She should consider her questions and realise the full extent of the economic disaster into which the Labour Party led this country, and its consequences for public spending, which are bearing down on the voluntary sector and every public sector organisation in Scotland.

Hugh O’Donnell (Central Scotland) (LD)

Given the First Minister’s fulsome support for the voluntary sector and his recent meeting with the SCVO, does he want to comment on information that has been given to members? A document that they have been given says that the SCVO’s

“vital work is being undermined by Scottish Government policies designed to protect the public sector.”

Will the First Minister clarify how we will reconcile the commitment to having no compulsory redundancies in the public sector with the pressures that his Government’s decisions are placing on the voluntary sector?

The First Minister

I said that Johann Lamont should recognise the Labour Party’s part in the public sector squeeze in Scotland. It is time that Hugh O’Donnell recognised that he has colleagues in London who are leading the attack on public services. The Government’s aim and ambition to have no compulsory redundancies is hugely important and vital for public services in Scotland. I also recognise the key role of the SCVO and the attendant voluntary organisations, which is exactly why they have been asked and have agreed to participate at the very heart of the Christie commission. That is the priority that we put on the role and performance of the voluntary sector in Scotland.


New National Examinations



5. To ask the First Minister, in light of reported comments from the Educational Institute of Scotland, whether the Scottish Government will delay the introduction of new national exams. (S3F-2892)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

No. The advice of the curriculum for excellence management board, which includes, of course, the teaching unions, directors of education and the Scottish Qualifications Authority, is clear: the new qualifications are on track. Indeed, at its meeting on 16 December 2010, the management board explicitly recommended that there should be no delay and that the new qualifications be delivered on time in 2013-14. It should also be remembered that, despite the naysaying of doom-mongers, the new curriculum has been successfully implemented in every single secondary school in Scotland from August. That is a track record of achievement that gives confidence to teachers, parents and pupils alike.

Des McNulty

Scotland’s schools have more than 3,000 fewer teachers now than they had in 2007. Officials worry that we could lose 900 more next year, which would bring the total of teachers’ jobs lost under the Scottish National Party to 4,000.

On the curriculum for excellence, the issue is not whether the qualifications agency can deliver the exams, although they should have been delivered last June and were promised in October. Where are they? The issue is whether teachers have confidence in the exams and whether they believe that pupils could be disadvantaged because of the Government’s mishandling of curriculum for excellence’s implementation.

Given what the EIS has said, will the First Minister order his Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning to hold an urgent meeting with the EIS and the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association—which Mr Russell chucked off the CFE implementation board—to get the reforms back on track and do what is needed?

The First Minister

I have given the curriculum for excellence management board’s view on implementation. I know that Des McNulty would not want to be counted among the doom-mongers whose forecasts have proven to be distinctly wide of the mark.

As for Des McNulty’s first point, I know that he would want it to be on the record that class sizes are at a record low and that we are delivering a Convention of Scottish Local Authorities deal that includes a teaching place for every new teacher in Scotland in 2011. He would acknowledge that, despite the hugely difficult circumstances, we have by far the lowest teacher unemployment rate in these islands. If we can persuade Labour councils—which have the most deplorable record on employing post-probationers—to share the enthusiasm of the many councils that take a different approach, we will all be better off. The Labour Party implements locally what Des McNulty complains about nationally.


Glasgow Sheriff Court (One-stop Shop)



6. To ask the First Minister on what basis the Scottish Government decided to establish a one-stop shop at Glasgow sheriff court, increasing liaison between community service and social work staff. (S3F-2887)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

I was delighted that Bill Aitken welcomed that new initiative in the letters page of The Herald on Tuesday this week. I know from his letter that he agrees that the Scottish Government has delivered measures to make community sentences tougher, faster and more effective. The pilot that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice announced last Sunday will receive funding of £175,000 from the Scottish Government. It will help to ensure that offenders who are, at Glasgow sheriff court, sentenced to unpaid work will begin their sentences immediately.

When the cabinet secretary launched the new community payback order on 1 February, he announced that £4 million will be available from proceeds of crime funds to support unpaid-work projects across Scotland and to help to ensure that benefits are delivered to communities, as well as punishment to offenders.

Bill Aitken

The prospect of the Scottish Government making community service tougher is remote, to say the least. Will the First Minister accept that we genuinely regard the measures as common sense? They will introduce some immediacy for community service, which I hope will reduce the appalling breach rate to which Mr Gray referred.

At the same time, will the First Minister recognise our disappointment that, despite the resolution by the majority of the Parliament on 9 May 2009, no moves have been made to establish a community court pilot in the sheriff court complex in Glasgow along the lines of the highly successful New York city model?

The First Minister

I was about to welcome Bill Aitken to the enlightened majority in the Parliament. I know that it is difficult for him to strike a balance between avoiding losing the reputation on crime that he has built up over the years and acknowledging—as he did in The Herald’s letters column—that new initiatives are working and making community sentences operate faster, which I am sure he accepts.

Bill Aitken should continue the route of travel that he has taken. The majority in the Parliament would welcome him into the ranks of the enlightened majority, who believe that our policy will make criminal justice more effective not just for offenders but—far more important—for communities, which are entitled to be paid back for the distress that offenders have caused.

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)

Does the First Minister agree that major gains for public safety will result from the speedier and more effective community orders such as those that are assisted by the project in Glasgow? Community payback orders typically cost £1,000 to £4,000. Does he agree that the proper way forward is to sort the problems with community payback orders and not to bang up people unnecessarily by way of yet another prison disposal that costs £40,000 a year and that has twice the reoffending rate?

The First Minister

I agree. I believe that Robert Brown was part of the majority in the chamber who saw the logic and sense of the proposals that are now being unveiled. I welcome his support in that regard. I am certain that this is the right direction of travel for criminal justice in Scotland. Those of us who believe that do so from a solid platform: the lowest rate of recorded crime for 30 years in Scotland; the highest public satisfaction and lowest fear of crime ever in Scotland; and the 1,000 extra officers who are patrolling the streets of Scotland and making our communities safe.

Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer, you ruled earlier that the leader of the Conservative party should keep her point of order until after questions had been taken. You said that that was because in this chamber we do not accept point of orders during question time. Is that a convention or a standing order?

It is a convention, Ms MacDonald.

12:31 Meeting suspended until 14:15.

14:15 On resuming—