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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, December 1, 2011


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S4F-00317)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Later today, it will give me great pleasure to officially reopen the Scottish national portrait gallery in Edinburgh. We should think of the great work of Glasgow City Council on the Riverside museum, the Robert Burns museum, the palace at Stirling castle, the new national museum in Edinburgh and the Victoria and Albert building to come in Dundee, and we should all, on this day after St Andrew’s day, welcome what will be another fantastic jewel in Scotland’s cultural crown.

Iain Gray

This does not apply to the First Minister or to me, but I hope that some of his colleagues, some of mine and others will realise that it is December and will find time today to shave off their Movember moustaches. They are to be congratulated on their fundraising, but enough is enough.

I reiterate Scottish Labour’s support for public sector workers and for the 300,000 Scots who took a stand yesterday. I know that the First Minister opposed their action, but he tries to claim that he does not support the pension changes either. Can he explain why his Scottish Public Pensions Agency made pension proposals that were even more punitive than the Tories’ proposals?

The First Minister

If Iain Gray had been at the debate yesterday, he would have heard Mr Swinney refute that point, which was initially made by a Tory researcher, I think. It is no great surprise that Iain Gray is now using lines from Tory researchers. What Iain Gray said was not the point of the particular document.

The particular issue on which we have challenged and continue to challenge the United Kingdom Government and the factor that, probably more than any other factor, exercises the people who supported yesterday’s strike and the hundreds of thousands of Scots who will be affected is that the levy that is claimed to support pension plans does not, in fact, support them. It is a straight smash-and-grab raid, as Mr Swinney described it yesterday.

That is a point that we have been forcing on and hammering away to the UK Government for some time. I am greatly surprised that Iain Gray does not acknowledge that. After all, it was Richard Baker who said on 21 September in response to Mr Swinney’s outlining that particular policy:

“We agree with the cabinet secretary’s analysis of the UK Government’s pensions policy.”—[Official Report, 21 September 2011; c 1931.]

Given that the Labour Opposition supported the Scottish National Party Government back in September, why is Iain Gray not still maintaining that position?

Iain Gray

We opposed the UK pension changes and we still do. The question is: if the SNP opposes them, why is it simply implementing them as asked by the UK Government?

I am not sure how the First Minister knows what made the strikers angry yesterday, as he was not anywhere near any of them, except when he crossed their picket line. I will tell him what made them angry. What made the nurses, teachers and council workers angry was being asked to give more when they are already in the middle of a pay cut, because of the pay freeze that there has been for the past two years. That anger was exacerbated by their having heard George Osborne telling them on Tuesday that their pay will be cut again next year and the year after. But hang on—public sector pay is mostly devolved. Can the First Minister confirm that he plans to pass on George Osborne’s 1 per cent pay cap?

The First Minister

Iain Gray must surely remember his remark on BBC Online during the election campaign that there would have to be public sector wage restraint for the next three years. That is the position that he put forward during the election campaign. In September, in answer to Mr Swinney’s point that we would lose £500 million if we did not implement the UK Government’s policy, Iain Gray’s spokesman said that he appreciated and supported the Scottish Government’s position as far as the UK Government’s pension changes were concerned. If Iain Gray thinks that we can find £500 million in response to Danny Alexander’s blackmail letter, he had better start telling the chamber exactly where it is going to come from.

Furthermore, at what stage between September, when Labour supported the position that we had to adopt following that blackmail letter, and now did Iain Gray suddenly change his mind? Perhaps he will also tell us when he decided not to cross picket lines, given that he has done it twice in the past 18 months in this Parliament.

Iain Gray

That response contained a lot of ways to avoid saying yes—the First Minister is going to pass on the 1 per cent pay cap. Two days ago, I heard John Swinney on the radio doing everything to avoid saying a simple yes. However, that is the answer. The Tories cut public sector pay and the SNP implements the cut; the Tories cut pensions and the SNP implements the cut; the Tories cut public sector jobs and the SNP implements the cut, only deeper and faster; and the Tories cut capital expenditure and, yes, the SNP implements that cut as well, only again deeper and faster. What, then, is the difference between the Tories and the SNP?

The First Minister

Iain Gray now says that he supports the strikers, but Ed Miliband opposes the strike. Iain Gray refuses to go into work in the Scottish Parliament, but Ed Miliband goes into work in Westminster. I know that Iain is on the way out as Labour leader in Scotland, but I think that there should be a little bit of co-ordination between him and his colleagues at Westminster.

The way to stop the Parliament and Government being hamstrung by the United Kingdom Government’s policies is to give us the financial independence that we require. Given that Iain Gray has been foolish enough to repeat Richard Baker’s mistakes—as well as not supporting him on pension policy—I will explain to Iain Gray the reality of Barnett funding as it affects the capital departmental expenditure limit. Capital DEL has declined by almost 40 per cent; it is part of the Barnett formula. I point out that Alistair Darling was going to pursue exactly the same policy.

Nevertheless, we are in a rising trend of capital investment in Scotland, thanks to two things: first, Mr Swinney’s policy of devoting £750 million of resource to capital spend, and secondly, the non-profit-distributing programme, which will add £2.5 billion. In the hope that we can finally settle this point, I will put the figures and the table concerned on the record and challenge Messrs Baker and Gray—if they can agree to do so—to come back every week and hear the same story: they cannot hide behind Tory cuts when Alistair Darling was going to implement cuts that would have been deeper and tougher than Margaret Thatcher’s.

Iain Gray

We know that the First Minister would like more financial powers. For example, he would like powers over corporation tax—and why? Because he wants to cut taxes for banks and big business even further than the Tories want to cut them. I hear the meandering bluster, but I see the cuts to pensions, jobs and pay. Is it not true that we know a man’s heart by his actions? On pensions, public sector jobs and pay cuts, 300,000 Scots took a stand yesterday—and, yes, we took a stand with them. When will Alex Salmond stand up for what he says and stop just doing Tory bidding every time?

The First Minister

Where do I start? Iain Gray’s predecessor, Wendy Alexander, supported the devolution of corporation tax to this Parliament if it was devolved to Northern Ireland and, this week, one of Iain Gray’s potential successors, Ken Macintosh, told us that he intends to cut and end the small business bonus scheme. Not only is there no synchronisation between Labour at Westminster and in Scotland, but there is no synchronisation whatsoever between Labour’s past leader, its present leader and one of the—

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

The First Minister

Ken Macintosh will have to wait a few weeks before he can adopt that position.

Our relationship with our staff is appreciated because, uniquely in these islands, we have a no compulsory redundancy policy in the part of the public sector that we control and we have implemented the living wage across the public sector. If Iain Gray wants us to get out from under the Tory policies, he should argue for giving this Parliament and Government the financial and economic powers that we require. That is what people voted for in May and what they will vote for again.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S4F-00301)

I have no plans to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland in the near future.

Ruth Davidson

The First Minister likes to claim the credit when he thinks that something is better in Scotland than it is elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but will he step up to the mark when Scotland is falling behind? Families who have young children in England receive 20 per cent more free childcare for their three and four-year-olds than those in Scotland—they get 15 hours a week and we get 12.5 hours. This week, the Chancellor of the Exchequer extended free provision to more than 250,000 two-year-olds from the most disadvantaged backgrounds south of the border. Evidence shows that the early years are the most crucial time in a child’s development. I believe that young families deserve support, particularly in the current tough times.

The First Minister rose—

I know that the First Minister is keen, but he can answer in a minute.

I want Scots families to get a better deal. Will the First Minister pledge to at least match what is happening in England?

The First Minister

The reason why I was so anxious to answer was to say to Ruth Davidson that, during this morning’s debate, several of her colleagues complimented the Scottish Government on its approach to early intervention. As we roll out the early intervention fund, she will find that our support for young families not only matches what is being done south of the border, however belatedly, but is a substantial enhancement in early intervention for families and young people.

Ruth Davidson

Great. I will claim that as a partial victory for Scotland’s families, but now I want to know when and how that will be implemented. I invite the First Minister and his cabinet secretary to a meeting with me and my team to take forward the issue to help Scotland’s families. It is time that we turned words into action, so will the First Minister meet me before Christmas to discuss the issue?

Is it the whole team that we will have to meet? It is approaching Christmas, so let me be gracious: of course I shall meet the leader of the Conservative Party and whichever members of her numerous team she wants to bring along.

I call Jamie McGrigor to ask a constituency question.

Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

The First Minister will be aware of today’s closure of the A83 trunk road in both directions following yet another landslide at the Rest and be Thankful. Given that the A83 is the key road route into and out of large parts of Argyll, including Dunoon, Campbeltown and Kintyre, can the First Minister assure me that the Scottish Government will do everything in its power to ensure that the road is reopened as soon as possible and that action will be taken to prevent further such landslides, which are potentially devastating for the Argyll and Bute economy?

The First Minister

Yes, I can. With your permission, Presiding Officer, I will say a bit about the extent of the difficulties on the A83.

A large landslip closed the road at 7 o’clock this morning. The site is approximately half a mile away from the previous significant landslip location. Approximately 80 to 100 tonnes of material have been deposited on the road. Engineers are on site as we speak, but no clearance operation can be carried out until the water has subsided and a risk assessment of any further slippage is done. The local radio stations have been informed of the situation and a diversion route has been put in place and communicated to the public. Details have been communicated to the relevant ferry companies. The traffic Scotland website and other internet sites and radio stations have been regularly updated with the latest on the issues. We cannot yet confirm when the road will reopen, but we expect that it might be closed for up to 24 hours. I assure the Parliament that the local member and other interested members will be informed as developments take place today.

Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)

The First Minister will be aware of the situation in Glasgow regarding arm’s-length external organisations. What discussions has the Government had with Glasgow City Council on the review of arm’s-length companies, and on how it will impact on front-line services?

The First Minister

That is a matter for Glasgow City Council. A number of concerns have been raised, and perhaps I could arrange for a meeting between the constituency member and the relevant minister to see how we can take the matter forward, although it has to be said that it is a local government matter.

Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)

SELECT, the electrical employers organisation, and Unite, the union, are speaking with one voice about the provocative and intimidatory actions of rogue employers in the sector, led by Balfour Beatty. Will the First Minister take an urgent personal interest in that matter, so that we can avoid a crisis this winter in the already struggling construction industry?

The First Minister

If the member wants to come forward with the information, perhaps I can arrange a meeting between him—and any other representatives he wants to bring along—and Mr Swinney, to see whether there is anything that the Scottish Government can do to facilitate a settlement of the potential dispute.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S4F-00312)

Issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Willie Rennie

Last month, I asked the First Minister when he would make up his mind on college funding. Last week, the National Union of Students launched a campaign called our future our fight. It hopes to protect college student support and teaching quality, and to stop cuts to college places, yet Angus College now fears that 400 places could be lost, with another 9,000 being lost across the country. The First Minister’s Government is proposing a £40 million cut to colleges, yet it has more than £67 million in extra money available and unallocated. It is a simple equation. Will the First Minister today join those who want to protect Scotland’s colleges, join the dots in his own Government and tell us that he will use part of that £67 million to help colleges and their students?

The First Minister

Willie Rennie says that these are simple calculations. I point out that the statements that we have seen, up to and including Tuesday, have had some positive consequentials for the Scottish budget. They have also had negative consequentials, which the United Kingdom Government has to date been unwilling to specify. For example, the assumption of a 1 per cent cap on public sector pay, which was in the autumn statement, will have serious negative consequentials for the Scottish budget. It is therefore understandable, wise and indeed essential that Mr Swinney, as finance secretary, looks at the overall balance and the impact of those measures before he comes to his conclusions and makes his announcement to the Parliament. Anything else would be particularly strange.

I know that Willie Rennie really wanted to welcome the substantial announcement, over and above consequentials, of £6 million a year that was made today to help young people in Scotland.

Willie Rennie

I welcomed that announcement this morning. The First Minister made that announcement this morning; why can he not make the announcement on the colleges as well? It is completely unacceptable that he is treating colleges in this way. He made a 10-minute speech this morning on youth unemployment, but there was not a single word in it about extra funds for the colleges. He spent six minutes arguing about statistics. Surely the only two statistics that matter are, first, the fact that he has at least £67 million that he was not expecting when he published his plans and, secondly, the fact that he was planning to cut college funding by £40 million. He no longer has to do that. Why cannot he save the day by simply making up his mind? Why the dodge? Why the delay?

The First Minister

Fair-minded people looking at college funding will look at both revenue and capital funding. For example, in 2002-03, when Iain Gray was an education minister, the college capital budget was £21 million in total. In 2013-14, thanks to the introduction of the non-profit-distributing programme and the major renovations supporting the college reorganisation across Scotland, the figure will be £138 million—an increase by a factor of almost seven.

If the member had been listening carefully to the statement this morning, he would have understood that the discussions that are taking place with local government and the voluntary sector include the colleges, so it is not accurate to say that this morning’s announcement was in any way irrelevant to the colleges—it was certainly relevant to the young people of Scotland.

On the issue of the United Kingdom Government, it is time to challenge some of the humbug that we have heard from Tory and Liberal Democrat members today. The red book, published with the budget, outlines what is happening to the college and further education sector south of the border. In England, the UK Government is reducing investment in further education by £1 billion. It is taking it from £4 billion to £3 billion, which is a 25 per cent reduction in cash terms and more than 7 per cent higher—much higher—than any prospective tightening of the college budget in Scotland.

Take some responsibility.

The First Minister

I am just pointing out to Willie Rennie what is actually happening south of the border. The importance of that is that, until we achieve financial independence, our budget in Scotland is, unfortunately, dependent on decisions that are made elsewhere. That is why I think that, when any Liberal Democrat or Conservative comes to this chamber and starts to weep crocodile tears for investment in public service in Scotland, they will be either laughed at by public sector workers or given the same treatment as Danny Alexander was given yesterday.


Autumn Budget Statement



4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s autumn statement. (S4F-00304)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Office for Budget Responsibility has confirmed that the United Kingdom Government’s plan A, south of the border, is clearly not working. It has resulted in slower growth, higher unemployment and deeper spending cuts.

In light of the worsening economic outlook, the chancellor needed to set out a bold plan to support growth. However, the measures that were announced fall far short of the action that is required. Indeed, the OBR itself states that they will have “limited impact” on the economy. The limited additional capital consequentials that we have received are welcome. However, three quarters of the funding will not be received until 2013, despite the obvious need for urgent action today.

The lack of action by the UK Government highlights the clear need for this Parliament to take the greater financial responsibility that would give us the levers to grow the economy and best protect our front-line services.

Graeme Dey

Following George Osborne’s admission of defeat on his economic plan A, and the miserable legacy of the Labour Party, which created this economic crisis, does the First Minister agree that it is high time that this Parliament was given the necessary financial powers to run its own affairs, so that Scotland does not have to be burdened by a union dividend of economic doom and gloom?

The First Minister

Yes, I do.

To illustrate the impact of the autumn statement, previously—before the autumn statement—the cumulative reduction in capital spend over the spending review period, implemented in Scotland as a direct result of the capital reductions south of the border, was £3.7 billion. After the spending review, magnificently, the reduction has come down to £3 billion. When Tory and Liberal Democrat members make points about the autumn statement, they should remember that a £3 billion reduction in direct capital investment in Scotland across this spending review is not something either to cheer or to be satisfied about.

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

The First Minister will be aware of the £100 million allocation that has been made for superfast broadband in our cities, while many people in our rural areas have no broadband at all. Will he make representations for a change of focus for that funding towards rural areas, particularly the Highlands and Islands, to ensure that that project benefits people in our most rural communities?

The First Minister

I support the nature of that question. In many ways, the allocation to broadband was disappointing. We have prioritised the requirement and need for superfast broadband to be rolled out across the country, hence the £140 million investment. I would be delighted if the member would meet the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure and Capital Investment to talk about that point. It is a highly important issue to the development of not only the rural areas of Scotland, but Scotland as a whole.

Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)

I feel that the First Minister was slightly ungracious in relation to the autumn statement. Will he reverse that and welcome the announcements on fuel duty, credit easing, the youth contract and the additional capital spend that we will get in Scotland?

The First Minister

I wish that Gavin Brown had listened to my earlier answer before he made that point. He is asking me to welcome the fact that the reduction in capital spending has been reduced from £3.7 billion to £3 billion. In the Scrooge-like world of the inner recesses of the Conservative Party, a reduction of only £3 billion is something to be rejoiced at and welcomed, but in the streets and homes of Scotland people want to see a Scottish economy that is increasing investment at this time in order to bring our people back into employment. That is the sort of thing that we will welcome.

Following through on the objectives of Gavin Brown’s question, will he join his previous and unfortunately defeated leadership candidate in calling for additional powers for this Parliament, so that when he asks the question, I can say what we are doing for Scotland, not what the Tories are doing to Scotland?


Human Trafficking



5. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to tackle human trafficking. (S4F-00316)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Human trafficking is an abhorrent crime and the Scottish Government is committed to making further progress in tackling the criminals who engage in it. The recent report from Helena Kennedy’s Equality and Human Rights Commission acknowledges that the Scottish Government has taken important steps in recent years in anti-trafficking and helpfully sets out recommendations for further action.

We have provided additional funding of £4 million over a two-year period from 2009 to 2011 to the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency to boost capacity to tackle organised crime and, within that, provide Scotland’s first dedicated expert resource to build the intelligence necessary to support and improve human trafficking investigation.

Drew Smith

I thank the First Minister for that answer, particularly in the light, as Helena Kennedy says in her report, of the Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth games. There is some urgency around ensuring that our approach to human trafficking is correct, and Baroness Kennedy raises a number of concerns about the interaction between police and the United Kingdom Border Agency, the low awareness of trafficking in Scotland, the definition in law where two offences exist for the same crime, lack of intelligence, lack of prosecution expertise and lack of services for victims.

Does the First Minister take the view that there is a case for a review of the legislation in this area and will he ask the Cabinet Secretary for Parliamentary Business and Government Strategy to bring forward an early debate so that parties across the chamber can discuss this very important issue in more detail?

The First Minister

I shall speak to the business manager to allow that to happen. Let me quote the words of Baroness Kennedy in a letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Justice:

“In conducting this Inquiry I have learnt not only how seriously you and Alex take the horrifying practice of human trafficking but, in particular, of your personal determination to eradicate it in Scotland. I would also like to reiterate my appreciation for the consistently helpful input and cooperation that you and your Justice Directorate have given to me and my team in conducting this Inquiry.”

Given the enthusiasm with which we co-operated in the conduct of the inquiry, the member can be absolutely certain that we will pursue its welcome recommendations to fruition.

Christina McKelvie (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)

In a recent report on migration and trafficking by this Parliament’s Equal Opportunities Committee, UKBA was harshly criticised for the way in which it determines the status of a trafficked person. The report called for the status of individuals who are suspected of having been trafficked to be determined by local government social work services. Does the First Minister agree that there is a need now to have these issues devolved to the Scottish Parliament?

Members: Shame.

The First Minister

I have heard a number of reactions to points being made about why this Parliament should have additional powers, but I cannot for the life of me see why a request, for obvious reasons, for this Parliament to have the powers that we would wish for, as a national Parliament, so that we can work for the benefit of all our people, should be greeted with cries of, “Shame.” The Labour members who do that are allowing their antipathy to the Scottish National Party and their difficulty in adjusting to their reduced, minority position in Scottish politics to get the better of them. When people make reasonable points, give them a reasonable response.


Double Jeopardy (Scotland) Act 2011



6. To ask the First Minister how many cases the Scottish Government considers might be affected retrospectively by the Double Jeopardy (Scotland) Act 2011. (S4F-00313)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The double jeopardy legislation, which came into force on Monday, sets out the circumstances in which it will be possible to retry an acquitted person. It was always envisaged that the act will be used only in exceptional cases—in particular, where there is new evidence which, had it been available before, would have been highly likely to have led to a conviction. Specific cases, of course, are a matter for law officers, particularly the Lord Advocate, who exercises his prosecution functions independently of other ministers.

Christine Grahame

I thank the First Minister for that reply, but does he consider that the enactment of the double jeopardy legislation, along with the potential abolition of corroboration, which Lord Carloway has recommended, raises concerns that the interaction of those two measures might make prosecutors and, indeed, the police less rigorous in gathering evidence for trial? To put it bluntly, will that give the Crown Office a second go if it gets it wrong in the first place? If the First Minister shares my concerns, will he give the Parliament an assurance that we will be given time to consider that implication?

The First Minister

Lord Carloway has provided an in-depth report, and I agree that there will need to be a period of reflection, analysis and consideration following its publication. The Scottish Government will work closely with the Parliament and the wider legal community as it moves towards a coherent package of reform.

That process began on Tuesday, when Lord Carloway appeared before the Justice Committee, and it will continue with this afternoon’s debate on the issue. The police and prosecutors are acutely aware that presenting a strong case can be critical in securing an early guilty plea from the accused, which spares the victim and witnesses the ordeal of giving evidence. For those reasons, I do not believe that there is any risk that standards of evidence gathering will decline.

I say to Christine Grahame that I accept that there must be a period of reflection, analysis and consideration following the publication of Lord Carloway’s report, and I fully recognise the role of Parliament in that period.

Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would not wish the First Minister to get off to a bad start in misinterpreting my questions, statements or policies, so I will assume that it was a genuine misunderstanding.

In the interests of clarity, I let the First Minister know that my plan for the small business bonus scheme would be to take the £130 million and to give it to the same small businesses, but only if they take on an employee. That would not only boost economic growth but reduce youth unemployment by 20,000. I urge the First Minister to look at the evidence from the Scottish Trades Union Congress and others.

That is not a point of order, but you have made your position clear to the chamber.

12:32 Meeting suspended.

14:15 On resuming—