Public Petitions Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 29, 2012

Official Report 308KB pdf

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New Petition

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Ambulance Services (Remote and Rural Areas) (PE1432)

Good afternoon. As always, I remind everyone to switch off mobile phones and electronic devices, because they interfere with our sound system.

Agenda item 1 is consideration of a new petition—PE1432, by Joseph and Anthony Duncalf, on improving emergency ambulance provision in remote and rural areas. Members have copies of a note by the clerk, which is paper 1, the Scottish Parliament information centre briefing and the petition.

The committee invited the petitioners to give evidence, but they cannot attend the meeting because of work commitments. They have provided a written submission that gives more background to the petition. With the committee’s agreement, I will read out an extract from that evidence with the key points, so that they are on the record.

I quote:

“Since experiencing a delay in ambulance response after dialling 999 for an elderly neighbour, early in April, we have come across numerous accounts of similar delays in and around the Dalbeattie area of Dumfries and Galloway. We understand from our community councillors and MSPs that this has been an on-going issue for a number of years. With only one ambulance based within 5 miles of the town, in Castle Douglas, Dalbeattie, despite being the largest town in the Stewartry area, with a number of outlying villages and holiday parks, seems to stand little chance of an ambulance reaching us within the target 8 minutes for a life-threatening emergency. Certainly if this ambulance is otherwise occupied, the whole area is very vulnerable, being dependent on a unit attending from Dumfries (14 miles) or ... Newton Stewart (40 miles) ... From articles in the press, we gather similar issues are experienced in the more remote areas across Scotland. Clearly there is a need for something to be done to improve the situation, and we feel there is a need for an urgent review of how ambulance services are provided in areas such as ours, to ensure that local residents stand the best possible chance of receiving prompt attention in medical emergencies.”

I ask the committee to consider the petition and the next steps.

14:15

Having read the papers, I have some observations. There is certainly an abundance of information about what has been done by the Scottish Government and previous Administrations. We have the national health service performance targets, the report “Delivering for Remote and Rural Healthcare”, the remote and rural implementation group, the working together for better patient care strategic framework, and the annual review of the Scottish Ambulance Service for 2010-11. I note that the United Kingdom’s first retained ambulance service is in Shetland, and is to be expanded to other areas in the future. We also have the first responder scheme.

I have a couple of questions that we could perhaps ask in writing. The written evidence mentions a public meeting that was held on 28 March. The petitioners say that 4,000 people live in the Dalbeattie area, but according to the evidence in the committee papers, no one from the area actually turned up at the meeting. I would like to know how that meeting was advertised, at what time it took place and whether the petitioners were informed about it.

The petitioners’ submission also says that the community council was looking at the issue and had been contacted, and that a number of people had expressed interest in joining the first responders team, but that that was not followed up. I would like to get some further evidence. This is a very serious issue. Some of my colleagues probably know the area a lot better than I do, but I would like to see some follow-up information about what is happening there.

The issue has been raised by individuals in Dumfries and Galloway, but most of us who have rural areas in our regions or constituencies will recognise the concerns that have been expressed. I am interested in the concept of retained ambulance crewing—a similar practice is prevalent in the fire and rescue service. Indeed, if it was not for retained firefighter crews, there would be virtually no firefighter coverage in many of our rural areas. Perhaps we should ask the Scottish Ambulance Service what work it is doing around the possibility of using retained ambulance crews in remote and rural areas, given the work that is being done in Shetland, and whether it has any plans to move that idea on further, especially given the example of the fire and rescue service. Let us see what we get back on that.

That is a good point.

I want to throw another issue into the mix. A chief inspector from Strathclyde Police who is based in Dunoon told me that, in that area, the force ensures that all police vehicles have defibrillators and officers are trained to carry out investigations. His point was that if someone who is 30 minutes from the nearest ambulance or doctor needs a defibrillator and is seen by a trained officer, that could be the difference between life and death. However, I understand that few other police forces have that system. Perhaps that is an issue for the single police force; we can pursue it when the chief constable is appointed, which I understand is not too far off.

This is a very good petition. I am sorry that the petitioners could not come to the committee because of their work commitments. We explored the use of videoconferencing but that was not possible because of their work.

I am looking for guidance from members on the next steps. Sandra White has already made some recommendations.

Yes, convener. I also note that we have another petition on the issue of transport for health and social care. There is a report from Audit Scotland about older people in remote and rural areas. Could we continue this petition and have a look at the other one? It would be ideal if we could do something jointly. We need to ask the Scottish Government and the Scottish Ambulance Service for their views on the petition, and provide an update on the progress of the implementation of the strategic options framework that is being monitored and reported on, particularly in relation to remote and rural areas. Dumfries and Galloway NHS Board should be asked for its views on the petition and about how that meeting on 28 March was advertised. I am amazed that no one turned up for a public meeting if the issue is causing such concern.

Are members happy to continue the petition along the lines that Sandra White has suggested and the other recommendations set out in option 1?

Although the petition concentrates on NHS Dumfries and Galloway, I suggest that when we write to the Scottish Ambulance Service and the Scottish Government we should also ask about service provision in the Highlands, which, after all, is the area with which comparisons can be made. We know that the central belt and most of the east coast of Scotland is—or at least should be—well served by the service, but it would be interesting to find out how those issues are dealt with in the Highlands and Islands. That would give us a comparator with service delivery in Dumfries and Galloway.

That is quite a positive suggestion.

Given the similarities between this petition and petition PE1424, I wonder whether we should combine them and invite Audit Scotland to come along and give evidence on both.

I am slightly concerned about putting those two petitions together. This petition focuses on emergency call-outs, while PE1424 highlights the entirely different issue of transport for the elderly. I do not want to confuse the two issues for communities; given that ambulances are for emergencies, I would certainly hate to think that they were being used to ferry elderly people around. I suggest, therefore, that we keep the two petitions separate.

The petitions would still run along separate channels; all I am suggesting is that Audit Scotland might be a common denominator in both. How do members feel about taking evidence from Audit Scotland on at least one of the petitions?

I take on board John Wilson’s point, but note that although the subject of PE1424 does not necessarily overlap with this petition on emergency services it raises similar issues to do with transportation, health, social care and wellbeing. Given that Audit Scotland has already published a report on this very issue, it would be good to get its take and I am happy for it to come along and give evidence.

As long as we ensure that we observe John Wilson’s point and keep the petitions separate.

Absolutely.

Do members agree with that course of action?

Members indicated agreement.