Migrants
The next item of business is a members' business debate on motion S3M-1145, in the name of Margo MacDonald, on maximising migrants' opportunities.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament welcomes the contribution made by migrants from eastern Europe to the economy of the Lothians and Scotland; recognises that many are in employment that does not utilise their skills and qualifications; notes the current shortage of skills in the Scottish workforce and suggests that the Scottish Government undertakes a pilot scheme to better match the education and work experience of migrants with the skills shortages in Scotland, and further suggests that a welcome centre in Edinburgh airport could identify migrants' qualifications and facility with the English language and provide advice on employment, training courses and other services.
The genesis of this debate lies in a spell that I had in hospital about three years ago, when I made the acquaintance of Monika, who had recently arrived from Poland and was putting in 12-hour shifts cleaning mainly toilets and bathrooms in the infirmary. Had she not come to Scotland with the first of the young Poles after her country became a European Union member, she would have been studying for her third-year exams in law. That made me quite interested in Monika, and I got to know her. Her English was not great and my Polish is on a par with my command of Urdu or Gaelic, but she had a bureaucratic problem that my office was able to resolve for her. Since then, we have kept in touch and have worked out a couple of other wee difficulties—concerning housing, as I recall—and, through her, I have gained an insight into the community that we are all aware of but which we cannot quantify. We do not know what size the community is or what the average age of people in the community is, even though the overwhelming majority of Scots have—I am happy to say—welcomed these hard-working migrants from eastern Europe and their skills.
I will concentrate on the Polish community because—although we do not know for sure—there appears to be a greater concentration of Poles in and around Edinburgh than of other people from eastern Europe, and it is certainly the group that I know a bit about.
The welcome that the Poles have received is not just because of the delicious treats to be found in the new Polish delis, or even because of the universal appeal of Polish plumbers, but because they have filled a gap in Scotland's ageing, shrinking population. Last year was the first year in quite a while in which our population grew. However, there are no figures showing how many of those welcome children were born to migrant mothers or how many are likely to stay long enough to pull on the dark blue jerseys of Scotland's sporting teams.
The motion asks for a better way of incorporating all the positive aspects of this new pattern of migration into Scotland, both for those who stay here to become new Scots and those who live and work among us for some months or a few years.
The Irish, in particular, are philosophical about the people who go to Ireland for a few months or years and then go back to their country of origin. The Irish want them to have as good an experience of Ireland as possible, so that, when it comes to doing business or organising school or university exchanges and so on, those people have the best possible opinion and experience of Ireland. That is another good idea that we can copy.
With the fresh talent initiative, the previous Executive, under Jack McConnell, set the tone of the relationship between migrants and indigenous Scots. He is to be congratulated on and thanked for his foresight. We should cheer him for his persistence in the face of the lack of interest and even hostility that was displayed by Whitehall and Westminster. However, now that the Scottish advantage that was established by the fresh talent initiative has been eroded by Westminster's adoption of the same procedure for keeping overseas students around for longer after graduation, we need to refresh fresh talent. That is the spirit in which I would approach any strategic overview in relation to the people who have come from eastern Europe.
Basically, we need to make migrants' experience in Scotland so satisfying that, first, a greater proportion put down roots and stay with their energy, talent and families, and secondly, as I said earlier, those who return to their native countries carry with them a positive picture of a country that made them welcome and with which they are happy to do business.
I do not want to seem to be suggesting that nothing has been happening in building relationships and so on. There are networking groups around the country, particularly for the Poles, and they do a pretty good job, drawing on their own resources, of providing personal support, advice and information for their countrymen and women. I visited such a club, which runs on Monday afternoons and evenings in Fort primary school in Leith, and I was struck by the almost palpable energy and vitality. Malcolm Chisholm, the constituency MSP, may have visited that club, too. If he has not, I advise him to go because it is uplifting to see so many dynamic young people thinking that Scotland and Leith are great places—but then, Leith is a great place.
Are we doing all that we could be doing to help the migrants progress? From work undertaken for Scottish Enterprise, we know that many of the migrants come to Scotland to enhance their skills and qualifications. It is in our interest that they should do so, which takes us back to my comments about encouraging more people to stay.
Is there a strategic overview of the next 10 years that encompasses information on how migrants might help us to meet the demand for high-end skills, whether they have the skills to move from production to service jobs—we know that that is where the growth is going to be—whether a sufficient number of migrants will reverse the decline in Scotland's working-age population, and whether Poles and other eastern Europeans will continue to come here, either temporarily or permanently, as our economy slows and theirs expands? Poland's economy, for example, is growing at 5 per cent per annum. We are in competition with Germany and the other countries that have lifted the barriers to people moving there.
It seems daft to say that this is one area in which we must be competitive, but I believe that to be the case. We must consider the people who are coming to Scotland. We must quantify the numbers, and we must know who they are and what interventions are sensitive to the fact that they have done a great deal for themselves and that they are not used to state or official agency intervention that is as benign and liberal as ours.
The suggestion in the motion is simply that there should be a pilot welcome desk scheme, which could be operated in conjunction with, for example, the company that runs the excellent portal on the web for Poles. That would identify the people coming in and give us some idea of how many there were, where they aimed to go to and, roughly, the information that we need. Booklets and a telephone line could be provided—I do not need to spell out the scheme for members as I am sure that they can work it out for themselves.
The idea behind the motion is not to provide a whole answer but simply to make people aware of the additional work that we must do to ensure that the people who are coming to Scotland and the people who are receiving them get the best of everything for both groups.
I welcome the debate and much of what Margo MacDonald proposed in a very good speech.
We welcome the contribution that is being made by migrants from eastern Europe. Although we do not have figures to prove it, we agree that many such migrants are not utilising their skills to the full. We know about the skills shortage that we have in our Scottish workforce. The idea of piloting a scheme to match experience with skills shortages is excellent.
I am slightly sceptical about the idea of the Edinburgh airport welcome centre, for the simple reason that I am not convinced that it goes anywhere near far enough towards what we need to be competitive. Margo MacDonald used the word "competitive". She is right: there is a global search for talent, and we need to be among the most competitive. I am not convinced that the airport idea in itself goes far enough.
I will discuss the positive points before I consider how we need to be more competitive. We need positive net migration to fill our shortages at all skill levels—I emphasise that they are at all levels. We have a lower birth rate, although it is not as low as it was a couple of years ago, and an ageing population—that has not changed—so we need to strengthen the country through human talent. An important part of that is getting in migrants from eastern Europe.
After a recent survey of its members in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, the Confederation of British Industry said that the influx in recent years of migrant workers had contributed to massive growth and to positive experiences at almost every company that was spoken to. One interesting statistic was that migrant workers generate 10 per cent of the UK's gross domestic product, despite forming only 8 per cent of the workforce. That results in better businesses and more money for public services. Migration offers good economic gains and, at the same time, good cultural gains for Scotland.
The idea of helping somebody whose skill level is higher than that which is needed for the job that they do is good—Margo MacDonald referred to her contact with Monika. Productivity is one of the weakest points of our economy. We need to improve our productivity in all areas, and encouraging good people to be more productive is the key to success.
The global context is that we face worldwide competition for good talent. According to The Economist recently, other countries are actively luring highly qualified people. France has established a scientist visa to attract people, and Singapore's Ministry of Manpower has an international talent division that seeks out talented people.
The CBI has said:
"By welcoming their people, we are in effect building relationships with other countries—in effect setting out our stall, as it happens, in some of the world's fastest growing marketplaces."
I note that, although the figures are a little patchy, we have probably attracted fewer young central Europeans than most English regions have, so there is more for us to do.
The Scottish Conservative perspective is that people are more likely to come to a country if it has more economic freedom and if we create the minimum of fuss for employers in giving migrants the jobs that they want and deserve.
My personal view is that we should go further than an office at Edinburgh airport and that we should pilot going into cities overseas to fix arrangements in people's home towns. We could establish an office in Warsaw, for example, so that people can sort out employment, training, housing and support networks before they catch the plane, instead of waiting until they arrive in Scotland. We must get the system right, because the battle for talent will only intensify.
I congratulate Margo MacDonald on bringing the motion to us. I support its sentiments, on which I will comment briefly.
One week after remembrance Sunday, a ceremony takes place at the Polish war memorial near Invergordon in my constituency. It sticks in my mind that, 10, 15 or 20 years ago, a small and dwindling band of very old veterans attended that ceremony, whereas it is now seriously big and rather moving. Every year, that ceremony reminds me how many Poles have come to live in my constituency. I dare say that Margo MacDonald is right to say that there are more Poles in Edinburgh than in other parts, but we in the Highlands are very much aware of the situation.
Members—and certainly the minister—know that some of the finishes we see in the Parliament were built by migrant workers. We did not have the joinery and cabinet-making skills to do some of the fine work in the Parliament. I agree entirely with what Gavin Brown said about the ageing population, which means that a smaller number of young workers will have to support an ever-increasing number of older retired people but, in an audit sense, we still need to be aware of why we have lost some skills, such as those in joinery and plumbing, to which Margo MacDonald referred.
Margo MacDonald talked about somebody who was studying law—I think that her name was Monika—coming to clean the toilets in the hospital where she was staying. There must surely be some recognition of overseas qualifications and an expediting of that process. I bet that every member has heard of that problem, not necessarily involving overseas qualifications, but the recognition of qualifications from south of the border.
I hope that I can reassure the member to some extent. There is a publication—I am looking for it among my papers, but I cannot find it—that is available to employers that enables them to equate, roughly, qualifications, but he is still correct. Gavin Brown talked about our going into Poland to provide information. The previous Executive tried distributing leaflets, but there were not enough and it was a fast-moving game that it could not keep up with. Someone is trying to address the problem, but it needs to be pulled together.
I thank Margo MacDonald for that informative, useful and encouraging intervention.
The part of the Scottish psyche that says we are all Jock Tamson's bairns is shown to be useful in the way in which we have welcomed migrant workers from wherever they have come from. That points to the inherent liberalism at the heart of Scots and Scottish society. I will return to that in a minute.
Unwittingly—it is not their fault in any way—migrant workers present some problems to Government and local government. For example, housing provision is overstretched because of them—welcome though they are—and there is a knock-on effect on housing waiting lists that we all recognise. Where there is a dwindling school roll, as in some parts of my constituency, the advent of migrant workers' children is welcome, as they keep some remote schools open. Nevertheless, in more built-up areas, their arrival presents problems. There is an issue, too, about teaching English to those who do not have the language skills. That, again, stretches our resources. I do not wish to be interpreted as in any way saying that these people are not welcome; the problems that I have mentioned merely need to be tackled in a workmanlike way. They are problems for local authorities and, ultimately, for the Scottish Government.
I do not know whether Gavin Brown was right to say that Margo MacDonald's proposal for a welcome centre at the airport should go further, but I am attracted by what Margo suggests. If we can bolt on more, that is all well and good, but the main point is that her suggestion is welcome.
The minister hails from Italian stock and the gentleman who is sitting to my right, Mr Hugh O'Donnell, comes from Irish stock—both communities that are now totally integrated into Scottish society. I hope and have no doubt that the new migrants will be integrated, too—perhaps not in generations, but in years to come.
I leave members with this recommendation. If they go into a Polish bar or a bar where a Pole works, they should say, "Dwa piwa, prosze."—"Two beers, please."
I congratulate Margo MacDonald on securing this important debate. I assure her that I have visited on more than one occasion the excellent and well-attended Polish drop-in at the Fort community wing. From my constituency experience, as well as everything else, I am well aware of the significant contribution that ethnic minority communities—including the new migrants from eastern Europe—make to Scottish society.
In general terms, I support the sentiments of Margo MacDonald's motion. She focuses on skills and highlights the fact that people's skills could be utilised even more. It is important, however, that we all recognise the enormous contribution that the skills of ethnic minority communities already make. I spoke at a conference on Europe on Monday. Although I was extremely alarmed and concerned at the UK Independence Party speaker who was there, who was complaining about—among other things—new migrants coming to this country, I was reassured by another speaker, who said that the new migrants are contributing between 0.5 and 1 per cent to Scottish gross domestic product growth every year. I have not seen that figure before, but we all recognise the fact that they already make a significant contribution. The figure could be even higher if their skills were fully utilised, as Margo MacDonald suggests.
I am not sure about the details of Margo MacDonald's proposed welcome centre at Edinburgh airport, but we need to make available advice on employment, training courses and the full range of services that are required. I had an interesting meeting a week or two ago with two women from other parts of Europe—one from Belarus, the other from Italy. They persuaded me of the desirability of providing a service that combines language teaching, cross-cultural understanding and information about services for new migrants. We all recognise the importance of all three for integration, but they suggested that they should be combined into one service.
I wrote to the Scottish Government on the matter and got a reply from Stewart Maxwell. I am always glad to see Linda Fabiani in debates; I suppose that she shares this issue with Stewart Maxwell. Among other things, he said:
"Following on from the spending review, the Equality Unit is currently redefining its funding process for 2008 – 2011 which will, amongst other things, take account of community cohesion and integration issues."
It would be good to know whether the Scottish Government has come to any conclusions about how it will spend its money on "cohesion and integration issues".
There have been pilot projects in many areas—I was responsible for them in a previous life, as Minister for Communities. Margo MacDonald's idea for a pilot is certainly worth consideration by the Scottish Government.
I am sure that Malcolm Chisholm is aware, as I am, of the role of the community education service in Edinburgh. It has had some fantastic open days at which migrant workers from across Europe and further afield have been able to access council services. A range of welcoming events has also been held. Does Malcolm Chisholm share my concern that potential cuts in the City of Edinburgh Council budget could undermine the welcoming process if no alternative is put in place by the Scottish Government?
Mr Chisholm, you are going into your final minute.
I intended to say something about the local government angle, but I will not have time to do that.
Sarah Boyack makes an important point. I meet Polish people every Saturday when I go to one of my surgeries in the Royston/Wardieburn community centre. They are being supported in the English language and in other ways by the community learning and development team there. I am concerned that there is a proposal to cut the City of Edinburgh Council budget by £850,000 and I hope that it will be reconsidered.
I referred to the skills pilot that Margo MacDonald proposed. The Government could also consider combining language teaching services with cross-cultural understanding and information about public services. Such a pilot project would be desirable. The Scottish Government has to consider its role, although I accept, of course, that local authorities have an enormous role to play in this issue.
The Edinburgh partnership board is doing good work. When I wrote to the council about that, it said that it is going to set up an Edinburgh migration network. That is positive step forward for Edinburgh but, as Sarah Boyack reminded us, without funding, all such initiatives will be put at risk.
As we all know, over the centuries Scotland has exported many of its able and young, whether willingly or otherwise, and, regrettably, it continues to do so. It is therefore ironic that young and talented people are migrating here—they are very welcome.
Many migrants come from eastern European countries. As Margo MacDonald said, they are making their home here temporarily, or they are making a permanent future here and multiplying the diversity that is modern Scotland. We do not want their talents to be wasted or misdirected. Even here in the Parliament, we can be served by a waitress who was a lawyer, an accountant or a medical practitioner. We do not want that to happen. Plumbers and roofers are as scarce as hen's teeth—I do not mind where they come from. On the subject of teeth, we could do with many more dentists, as well as medical practitioners and nurses.
However, as Jamie Stone said, issues are being raised for local authorities. Pressures on housing and schools can cause tensions within communities, so we have to address those pressures. The same is true for health boards, which might find that they need more maternity units and so on. We must address those serious issues sensitively with the migrant population and the indigenous population, which must be taken along. We must not let some of the anecdotal evidence that we hear out there become facts that cause tensions.
Migration is not just an urban issue, as Jamie Stone rightly said. I am delighted to say that, in Galashiels, we have a Polish delicatessen, and my newsletter is translated into Polish. Indeed, this Saturday, the main street in Galashiels will be closed to celebrate Chinese new year—complete with dancing dragon—and it will be great fun.
There are serious issues about how we assist migrants. Margo MacDonald made the important point that we do not have data on the number of migrants or their skills. Migrants should not feel that that would be something sinister, as if we were some police state that wanted to find out about them. We really need data so that proper provision can be made.
Malcolm Chisholm and Gavin Brown expressed similar concerns about the suggested pilot, but we already know that people coming from eastern Europe have a sensitivity to official intervention. Perhaps a face-to-face, informal welcome will reassure them. When they then go down to the Fort community centre or other community networking places, the word will spread that the pilot scheme is okay.
That is an important point. We must recall that many migrants do not come from what might be called a relaxed democracy such as we have enjoyed in Scotland.
I want to raise three quick issues in the dying minutes of my speech. My first concern is that advice be given to migrants on how they may not be paid less than the minimum wage. Accommodation and board are sometimes scooped up into migrants' wages so that employers exploit not only the migrants but the local workforce. We have had incidents in Scotland of local workers losing their jobs to migrant workers and both lots being exploited by unscrupulous employers.
Secondly, I have reservations about Gavin Brown's suggestion that we should actively recruit in migrants' native countries. I have a certain unease about poaching skilled people and medical professionals from countries that may well need them. There is an issue about such people coming here voluntarily, but a balance must be struck. I would not like us to take from countries that are in need.
Thirdly, another issue that must be addressed in tonight's short debate is disclosure and enhanced disclosure. I have raised the issue in the chamber on previous occasions. In many eastern European countries—through no fault of the migrants—there are not sufficient police records on those who come here to work in sensitive areas such as social work and care homes. Whereas indigenous employees are subject to strict enhanced disclosure checks, it is not possible to carry out such checks on immigrants. That can cause tensions. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice is considering how we can iron out those difficulties.
In her comprehensive and informative opening speech, Margo MacDonald referred to Scotland's ageing, shrinking population. I am part of that ageing population and, like the population, I am probably shrinking as well. I speak to support Margo MacDonald's positive motion.
Given our huge skills shortage in Scotland, it is right that we look to enthusiastic and talented migrants from eastern Europe. Those of us who have recently stayed in hotels in Scotland will have come across those young people. Eastern Europeans now service many of our industries. However, much more could be done. That young chambermaid might well have a university degree that could be of use to us. The waiter might well be a qualified teacher. Some migrants need help in finding the most appropriate job to suit their talents and others might need courses in colloquial English, the Scots tongue and local customs and culture.
As part of Scotland's long tradition of providing hospitality to people from other nations, we have particular links with Poland. Several of those links have been mentioned tonight, but I draw members' attention to the link between medicine in Poland and medicine in this country. During the dark years of world war two, the University of Edinburgh gave hospitality to the entire Polish school of medicine. Many Polish doctors graduated from the school by doing all their studies in Edinburgh and some of those stayed on and worked in this country. The senior tutor, Dr Tomaszewski, became a practitioner on the south side of Edinburgh and many people look back on his services with fond memories.
For many years, I had a Polish dentist who had qualified in this country. He was a marvellous dentist. At first, his English was slightly limited but, towards the end of his time as my dentist, I heard him say to his receptionist, who was also his wife, "When I say, ‘Open the mouth,' I mean the patient and when I say, ‘Shut the mouth,' I mean you." His knowledge of colloquial English had developed apace in that time. He also gave the most fantastic parties. On new year's eve, everyone would go into the garden to see the first star; once they had seen it, they would drink a lot of vodka. I can testify to the visual talents of the Poles, because they could always see a star in the sky, no matter how cloudy it was.
I support the motion. We badly need migrants. We need their youth, their dynamism and—dare I say it, given that I may be on the verge of depending on the state much more—their taxes.
The debate has been extremely interesting and is timely. I thank Margo MacDonald for bringing the subject to the Parliament. It was great that every speaker, from all parties, welcomed migrants to our country and recognised the skills that they bring. Migrants are generally welcomed throughout the country, but sadly that is not reflected in some of the reporting in the press.
I thank Christine Grahame for offering a realistic view of the situation. The general public probably lack knowledge about migration. Throughout recorded time, there have been waves of migration across Europe, and I am sure that they will continue. A couple of years ago, the Polish ambassador told me that the Poles were quite relaxed about their people moving away, because they knew that at some point they would come back and be joined by others—such is the history of Europe.
The Government's economic strategy, which was published in November 2007, sets out our ambitious targets for economic and population growth. We aim over the next 10 years to match the average population growth of the original European Union 15. Migration will play a key part in helping us to meet that target. Gavin Brown and Margo MacDonald mentioned that there is competition for migrants. Other countries also have skills gaps. Although I cannot confirm this figure, a representative of Denmark told me yesterday in Brussels that Denmark recently set the target of attracting 500,000 people to fill its skills gaps. There is big competition out there.
Members have mentioned that we do not know the facts about migrants who are already here. We know from the worker registration scheme that more than 58,000 people from the accession 8 countries have registered to work in Scotland since 2004, that more than 70 per cent of them are from Poland and that around a fifth of them have registered in the Lothians. We also know that those figures give only a rough indication at best, because not everyone is obliged to register under the scheme.
Does the minister recognise that, in parallel with the worrying figures that she has given, there was some evidence in the run-up to the Scottish election that many migrant workers were not registered to vote, although as citizens of the EU they had the right to do so?
That is absolutely true. Political parties, agencies and everyone else involved in public life must try to address that issue for the next election.
Migrant workers are not found only in the Lothians or the cities. When I visited the Highlands recently, I found that they are making a huge contribution to the local economy and society, as Jamie Stone said. I heard at first hand about the experiences of a couple of lassies from Poland and the Czech Republic who are working with migrant workers.
We need to do what we can to encourage many migrant workers to stay in Scotland in the longer term, although there is always room for those who do not want to do that and want to be part of the migratory pattern to which I referred. However, we must help those who want to stay here to build a new life to achieve their personal goals—after all, they are helping us to achieve our economic goals. Recently, we updated our Polish information guide, which has been distributed in hard copy to more than 25,000 people here and in Poland. Interestingly, our Polish website has had more than 100,000 visitors.
I have a suggestion. If we pilot the welcome desks, the people who run the Polish website should be partners in the project, so that it is not seen as a patronising gesture.
We should always work in partnership when we tackle such issues. Malcolm Chisholm also referred to that, and expressed concern about local government funding. I will ensure that he receives an update on the latest position.
I am considering the help that we can provide through the relocation advisory service, which was launched in 2004 as a three-year pilot project. Recently, I extended the project so that it will run to October 2008, to allow us to thoroughly review it. We are contacting stakeholders, including employers, business representatives, the Scottish Trades Union Congress and local authorities, to seek their views on how we can develop the service to best meet the needs of employers and employees. We are working in partnership.
We are also considering how we can develop the fresh talent policy framework. Like Margo MacDonald, I welcome the brave step that Jack McConnell took to establish the fresh talent scheme. It is a shame that the differential that we had has been lost. We must consider imaginative ways of making up for that loss.
There is currently a lot of good practice, and Margo MacDonald's motion has brought to the chamber a sense that it would be good to pull it together. In my constituency, for example, many workers get off the airport bus and cross the road to the employment service, where many leaflets in Polish are available. Good things are happening, but we need to build on the momentum.
I say again that partnership is important to us, which is why I extended the time for the crucial relocation advisory service pilot project.
I will have to rush through the other things that I want to say. Qualifications have been discussed. There are services that help people to have their qualifications recognised in the United Kingdom. In that regard, I should mention the National Academic Recognition Information Centre for the United Kingdom—UK NARIC—which provides comparison information and advice.
In response to demands from employer organisations, the Scottish Qualifications Authority has started to map Polish qualifications and the Polish education system against Scottish qualifications and the Scottish credit and qualifications framework. Information on that is now available on the SQA website.
I agree that airports can be a prime location for informing people about Scotland, but I am not convinced of the cost-effectiveness or, indeed, the general effectiveness of a welcome portal at Edinburgh airport. Many migrant workers come through Edinburgh airport and other airports, but we know that many others come to Scotland by other modes of transport, directly or via England. However, as I have said, we will consider support for migrant workers in our review of the relocation advisory service.
It is important that we do not forget the role of employers. The Government has a part to play in encouraging people to come here to help employers fill their vacancies, but employers also have a role in helping their employees to achieve their full potential. We should always ensure that we get as much information as possible, including anecdotal evidence, from stakeholders, including trade unions, on where there is potential for exploitation. Christine Grahame mentioned that.
I commend the role that the consular corps plays in supporting fellow citizens in Scotland. I agree that support for migrant workers needs to be provided, but we must work alongside all our partners in local government and other agencies, the consular corps and employers to achieve our goals. I think that we all have the same goals.
Meeting closed at 17:44.