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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, September 27, 2012


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the Deputy First Minister what engagements she has planned for the rest of the day (S4F-00876)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Nicola Sturgeon)

Later today, I will have meetings to take forward the Government’s programme for Scotland. That programme includes protecting the council tax freeze, protecting free university education, protecting personal care and bus travel for pensioners and protecting healthcare free at the point of need.

Johann Lamont

The late Campbell Christie was one of the finest trade unionists that this country has ever produced. He fought uncaring Tory Governments at every turn and helped to deliver the Parliament to protect the people of Scotland. His commission report on the future delivery of public services, which was written for the Scottish National Party Government, said:

“Contentious issues such as the continuation of universal entitlements must be considered openly and transparently, rather than in the current polarised terms.”

This is about the kind of fairness that we want to achieve for our communities. Spending is projected not even to get to 2010 levels for another 15 years, and Scotland’s population is ageing. I agree with Campbell Christie and believe that the debate about how we make spending choices fair for people throughout Scotland must happen before the referendum. Does Nicola Sturgeon? [Applause.]

Order.

That begs the question why Johann Lamont has set up a commission that reports after the referendum in 2014. She clearly does not have the courage of her convictions. I agree—[Interruption.]

Order.

Nicola Sturgeon

I agree with Johann Lamont about the late Campbell Christie. He had a tremendous record in fighting uncaring Tory Governments. If only there were people on the Labour benches today who fought uncaring Tory Governments.

This Government makes its choices. We deliver to the Parliament balanced budgets that focus on growth, protecting public services and—yes—protecting the household budgets of families that are struggling to make ends meet. We will be proud to protect the council tax freeze, free education for working-class young people and free personal care and bus travel for our pensioners. If Johann Lamont wants to make that the dividing line of Scottish politics, I have only one thing to say to her: bring it on. [Applause.]

Order.

Johann Lamont

Nicola Sturgeon needs to understand that this is not a game about dividing lines. Nor is it about her electoral future. It is about what is happening in our communities throughout Scotland. She ought not to believe what her spin doctor tells her about what I said—I said that we need an open and honest debate, just as John Swinney said in 2010.

If Nicola Sturgeon does not want to agree with Campbell Christie and me, perhaps she will agree with one of her own. In another report that her Government commissioned, her chief economic adviser, Crawford Beveridge, said of free services:

“concessionary travel, prescription charges, eye examinations, free personal and nursing care and tuition fees”

are

“commendable, but simply may no longer be affordable.”

Critically, he added:

“A debate needs to be had on whether those who can afford to pay might be invited to do so, thus allowing better targeting of those in most need.”

When Nicola Sturgeon’s own minister, Alex Neil, got rid of the universal provision of central heating systems, he said:

“It would be inappropriate to use scarce resources to provide free central heating systems for some of our retired bankers, for example, who receive substantial pensions.”—[Official Report, 14 May 2009; c 17481.]

What Nicola Sturgeon says is not about the principle of universality; it is an electoral calculation. Why will she not have the debate that Campbell Christie and Crawford Beveridge demanded and ensure that we have it this side of the referendum?

Nicola Sturgeon

Johann Lamont should make no mistake: I relish this debate.

Johann Lamont is on pretty dodgy ground in invoking spin doctors in the debate because, within 20 minutes of making her brave speech on Tuesday, she had dispatched her spin doctors to say that she did not really mean police numbers, bus travel for pensioners or free personal care. However, Arthur Midwinter has told the truth today, has he not? He said that everything is on the table.

There are many things that we can call that kind of approach from Labour. The word “shambolic” immediately springs to my mind. Let me tell Johann Lamont something for free: Labour’s approach is not brave, and it is certainly not honest.

The Government will put forward balanced budgets. Delivering balanced budgets is not easy when the Tories are cutting those budgets. That is why we argue for the control of our own resources. Johann Lamont’s answer to that is to pass on Tory cuts to hard-pressed Scottish households.

The Deputy First Minister might think that that sounds good in here, but in the country, it sounds like a lot of nonsense. The fact of the matter is—[Interruption.]

Order.

Johann Lamont

I agree with the Deputy First Minister that the budget has been cut, but if it has been cut, why does she stick with the same priorities that she set out in 2007? The dispute is not about whether there are cuts, which is how Nicola Sturgeon wants to present it; it is about which cuts should be made in tough times.

Let me explain what real people think. [Interruption.]

Order.

Johann Lamont

Nicola Sturgeon lives in a household with an income of more than £200,000 a year. She gets free prescriptions. Free prescriptions cost £57 million a year. How many nurses is that? Like me, Nicola Sturgeon will have saved more than £400 from the council tax freeze, but my children’s school and schools across the country are getting to the stage at which they cannot even do the basics, such as photocopy materials. If spending cuts threaten the kind of free care for the elderly that we want to deliver, is it fair that a woman such as her on 200 grand should get free prescriptions? Is it fair that the Sturgeon household, on £200,000 a year, gets universal benefits when families on average earnings pay more for childcare than for their mortgage?

Nicola Sturgeon

Obviously, Labour is more out of touch than I thought that it was. Let me remind Johann Lamont that, under the system of prescription charges that she and her party presided over, people who earned as little as £16,000 a year paid prescription charges. That is why it was fair to abolish them.

If Labour thinks that the council tax freeze is so wrong and that it is doing so much damage, why did it promise to continue it just five months ago in the local government elections? I have here the “Glasgow Labour Manifesto 2012”. Number 1 on the “100 things we will do” list in that manifesto says:

“Labour ... will continue to freeze council tax for the next 5 years.”

Johann Lamont likes to talk about honesty, but if she was being honest then, is not it the case that, by definition, she is being deeply dishonest now?

Johann Lamont

We know that the Government’s council tax freeze is underfunded. I have been to too many meetings at which I have listened to care workers describing their lives and terms and conditions now, and I have listened to too many carers who are mopping up due to the fact that budgets are being cut, to stay silent on the issue.

Talk about not opening the gas bill but putting it in the drawer—that is what Nicola Sturgeon is doing with the nation’s bills. As every decent household knows, that never ends well. These are serious times. She said that she wants a debate: have one and let the people of Scotland choose. [Interruption.]

Order.

Johann Lamont

If Nicola Sturgeon shuts down the debate in the way that she has started to do this week, she had better explain to the carer who is told that they can care for the pensioner for only 15 minutes why that is happening; to the son why that is the only care that his mother gets; and to the parent why their child cannot have the classroom support that they require to maintain them in mainstream education.

A public spending crisis is happening now and it is going to get worse. Nicola Sturgeon should face up to that. The Tories are cutting the budget, but within that budget we will all be judged on the choices that we make, whether it is our benefits or the needs of the people of this country. She could get that and she could change her mind now.

Nicola Sturgeon

I remind Johann Lamont gently that the people of Scotland chose: in May 2011, they overwhelmingly chose free prescription charges, a freeze on the council tax and free university education for working-class kids. If Johann Lamont is saying that she wants to reverse all those policies, she should not set up a commission; she should have the guts to say so and let the people of Scotland choose after that.

Do not just listen to me about this. Let us have a look at some of the reaction from Labour posters on the LabourHame blog site:

“What are we doing? Did we learn nothing from the ‘New Labour’ nonsense?”

and

“This is not a speech based on any reasonable interpretation of Labour values”.

That is what Labour members are saying.

All is not lost for Johann Lamont, however, because Murdo Fraser was quick to take to Twitter. He said:

“Good to see Johann warming to Tory”

policies. [Laughter.] We can laugh, but it is actually quite tragic: Johann Lamont, poster girl for the Tories. Whatever happened to Labour? We used to have new Labour; now we have Johann Lamont—new Blair.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. To ask the Deputy First Minister when she will next meet the Prime Minister. (S4F-00871)

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the immediate future.

I thank both of the honourable leaders for finally and belatedly bringing the debate on to grounds that the Conservatives have been talking about since before the last election. [Interruption.]

Order. Let us hear the member, please.

Ruth Davidson

I chime hugely with Murdo Fraser and I am pleased to remind members that, indeed, there was only one party that did not take part in a Dutch auction in 2011 and had sound ideas for prescription charges, the council tax and student funding.

Last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth gave us what he said would be a budget for growth. He gave it a big build-up and he took to the newspapers and the airwaves. He said that every penny would be put towards the economy. That was a budget that fell apart within 24 hours and which has been decried by the leading economist Professor David Bell, by the construction industry chief Michael Levack and even by the Parliament’s own independent information service, the Scottish Parliament information centre.

Let us give the Deputy First Minister a chance to repair the damage. What is the big game changer in 2013-14 that will give the Scottish economy the boost that John Swinney faithfully promised?

Nicola Sturgeon

I agree with Ruth Davidson on one thing: the Tories have always talked about cuts and penalising hard-working families in Scotland. They have certainly been consistent.

Ruth Davidson said that she does not want to have a Dutch auction. My memory is that she used to claim credit for the council tax freeze and the 1,000 more bobbies on the beat. Perhaps she should look back at previous speeches.

The budget that John Swinney presented to the Parliament last week was completely focused on getting growth in our economy, with £40 million more this year and next year for housing, £80 million accelerated funding in schools and money for green investment, adding to the £3 billion capital programme this year. That is what we are doing to accelerate construction and get growth and jobs in our economy.

Ruth Davidson mentioned Michael Levack. This week, Michael Levack welcomed the steps that the Scottish Government is taking and went on to say that the United Kingdom Government needs to do more. Perhaps Ruth Davidson should get on the phone to the Prime Minister and ask him to do his bit.

Ruth Davidson

Nicola Sturgeon clearly read her colleague’s press release, but I am not sure that she read the 2013-14 budget, because the £80 million for schools does not kick in until at least a year later and the £40 million that went back into housing was to help to repair some of the damage that was caused by taking £100 million out of housing.

The finance secretary has had a busy few days. At the point at which his budget was being picked apart, he was speaking to Scotland’s accountants. He told them that he would correct his leader’s words in January by saying that a separate Scotland would take on a share of the multitrillion pound banking debt. That follows Ms Sturgeon’s gaffe and subsequent U-turn on a place on the Bank of England monetary policy committee and the Scottish National Party’s collective economic illiteracy on a separate financial regulator for Scotland.

This week has proved not just that the Government cannot write a budget for today, but that the Government has no idea how to construct a financial system for the future. It is a back-of-a-fag-packet Government, which pushes every hard question to a mythical white paper that we are supposed to expect late in 2013.

The SNP is asking the people of Scotland to trust it with everything that they have, but it will not tell people how it would keep their money safe—it will not tell them anything at all. The Deputy First Minister has taken on the bank debt. Can she tell us, in pounds and pence, how much of that debt she is willing to take on? How much?

Nicola Sturgeon

I ask Ruth Davidson to listen carefully to my answer, because, not for the first time, she has got it spectacularly wrong. Not only has the SNP—me, John Swinney, the First Minister—always been perfectly clear that an independent Scotland would take its fair share of any debt associated with the bank bailout—[Interruption.]

Order. Ms Baillie.

Nicola Sturgeon

This is the bit that Ruth Davidson should listen to. The population share for Scotland of the net borrowing for the bank bailout is already included in the “Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland” figures. The very same GERS figures show that Scotland has a relative surplus; in other words, an independent Scotland would be richer than we are now. That is another good reason to vote yes.

We have a constituency question from Malcolm Chisholm.

Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)

Without pre-judging council investigations into the death of my constituent John Gibson and the homecare services that he received, is the Deputy First Minister concerned that six complaints about the private homecare provider in question have been upheld by Social Care and Social Work Improvement Scotland—the care inspectorate—since February alone, and that employees of that and other homecare companies seem to be overburdened, with too many clients and too short a time with each client?

Will the Scottish Government undertake an urgent review of the way in which homecare services are commissioned and delivered, particularly in view of the increasing and welcome emphasis on homecare in health and social care policy?

Nicola Sturgeon

I thank Malcolm Chisholm for his question. He raises an extremely serious matter, and I am sure that I speak on behalf of all members of the Parliament when I pass on our sincere condolences to the family and friends of Mr Gibson.

Mr Gibson’s death has prompted the care inspectorate, City of Edinburgh Council, and Lothian and Borders Police to launch an investigation, and it is important that none of us pre-empts the outcome of those investigations. What I will say—and I hope that Malcolm Chisholm accepts the sincerity of this—is that I think that it is essential that we have in place in this country a robust system of inspection. When I was health secretary I took steps to strengthen the inspection system that we have in this country. As part of that, Malcolm Chisholm made some suggestions that this Government took forward.

My position is clear: let us await the outcome of the investigation. If there are actions to be taken to make our system more robust, I give Malcolm Chisholm an absolute assurance that this Government will not hesitate to take them.

Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)

Given the recent storms that battered Scotland and, in particular, caused flooding in Peebles and power cuts in Gorebridge—both of which are in my constituency—what processes are in place to provide the necessary links from the Government’s resilience team to local authorities, such as Scottish Borders Council and Midlothian Council?

Nicola Sturgeon

I am confident that the right links are in place and that they worked well on this occasion. We coped well with what the BBC described as

“the worst September storm for thirty years”.

We prepared well—Keith Brown worked closely with those local authorities that were likely to be affected, including Scottish Borders Council and Midlothian Council, ahead of the storms. Partners continued to work well together throughout the course of the storm, ensuring a co-ordinated response at all times.

I commend both Lothian and Borders Police and Scottish Borders Council for their prompt response to flood warnings, which helped to protect property and the public. I also know that the Minister for Environment and Climate Change spoke to Scottish Borders Council and East Lothian Council earlier today.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the Deputy First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S4F-00872)

First, I take the opportunity to wish Mr Rennie a happy birthday. I am sure that my dad will be delighted to hear that he shares a birthday with the leader of the Liberal Democrats.

He is not that old—[Laughter.]

Let the birthday boy speak, please.

Willie Rennie

I thank the Deputy First Minister for her best wishes.

It is good news that the Scottish Government will increase nursery education for three and four-year-olds, but Save the Children tells us that, before the age of three, the children from disadvantaged backgrounds have already fallen behind. If we are to give them a chance, we need to increase provision for those two-year-olds. Will the Deputy First Minister’s plans to give nursery education to only 1 per cent of two-year-olds be good enough to bridge the gap in educational attainment between the rich and the poor?

Nicola Sturgeon

I agree with Willie Rennie that ensuring that we provide well for children in the earliest years is of paramount importance. This Government’s record is extremely good in that regard. We have expanded free nursery education by 15 per cent, which benefits around 100,000 children every year; we have extended the free school meals entitlement to more children and young people from low-income families than ever before; and, of course, we have pledged to increase the current 475 hours each year of pre-school entitlement for all three and four-year-olds to a minimum of 600 hours each year of early learning and childcare for all three and four-year-olds and for looked-after two-year-olds.

That is a sound package of support, but I accept that, particularly for the youngest and most vulnerable children, we must always work more to increase the support and ensure that we give our youngest children the best possible start in life, too.

Willie Rennie

Bob Doris and Sandra White knew all that the Deputy First Minister has set out, but they have demanded—in a motion and through speeches here—that more is done.

In England, free nursery education will be given to 40 per cent—four out of 10—two-year-olds. In Scotland, the equivalent figure is only 1 per cent. A generation will miss out and the evidence is that many will never, ever catch up. That is a gap in provision that will lock in a gap in attainment. I appeal to the Deputy First Minister once more to review the Government’s plans so that disadvantaged kids do not lose out.

Nicola Sturgeon

I say in all seriousness to Willie Rennie that the package of early years care that this Government is pledged to deliver is greater than that being delivered south of the border. The Government in England is not providing 600 hours of childcare each year.

I agree—I hope this is something on which we can build cross-party consensus—that we must do more for our most vulnerable young children. That is why, for example, the Government has set up the early years change fund as part of our approach to more preventative spending. Our policies and our approaches will always be kept under review to ensure that we take all reasonable steps to give our children the best start in life.


Drug Misuse Treatment (Waiting Times)



4. To ask the Deputy First Minister what progress is being made with reducing waiting times for treatment for drug misuse. (S4F-00883)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Nicola Sturgeon)

The latest statistics that were published on Tuesday show that our target to reach a level of 90 per cent of clients starting treatment for their drug problem within three weeks of referral has been achieved. That has been done nine months ahead of schedule.

In 2007, 27 per cent of people who needed drug treatment had to wait more than a year just to get an appointment—not even treatment—and a wait that exceeded six months was not uncommon. We are now seeing the successful impact of our commitment to increased investment in front-line drug services. That commitment remains unstinting: the allocation of £38.2 million to health boards for front-line drug services and support in 2012-13 represents an increase of more than 20 per cent since 2006-07.

Sandra White

That is great news and everyone should be grateful for what is happening. I congratulate everyone—from families to professionals—who has worked so hard to achieve the target.

What is the next stage for the future delivery of the strategy, which is vital for people who are tackling drug addiction?

Nicola Sturgeon

Given the progress that we have made on delivering the health improvement, efficiency, access and treatment target for drug waiting times, the next phase of delivery of “The Road to Recovery” will focus on sustaining the excellent progress that has been made and ensuring that we embed quality across all services in Scotland. We have prioritised work to deliver new national standards for drug and alcohol services, which will be focused on recovery and workforce development to drive up and support quality of service provision, with a clear expectation of recovery.


College Mergers (Support)



5. To ask the Deputy First Minister what support the Scottish Government provides to colleges that merge. (S4F-00879)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Nicola Sturgeon)

We are supporting college leaders to take advantage of the opportunities for learners and employers that college regionalisation provides. To that end, we were pleased to announce in our draft budget a £17 million increase in funding for colleges for 2013-14. That adds to our plans for new college estates valued at some £300 million, for which the procurement process has now begun. Of course, our £15 million college transformation fund provides significant support for colleges that wish to merge. Through our college change team, officials are working closely with individual regions to offer help on all issues associated with merger.

Neil Findlay

Meanwhile, back in the real world, at this week’s meeting of the Education and Culture Committee, the further education trade unions and the leader of NUS Scotland, Robin Parker, said that economic recovery is being threatened by cuts to college budgets. Are they all wrong?

Nicola Sturgeon

Neil Findlay should look carefully at what we are doing. We are protecting college places, which I think is what matters most to young people around Scotland. We are also doing what we can to ensure that, through revenue funding, capital funding and our non-profit-distributing programme, we are delivering substantial investment in Scotland’s colleges. I think that people want a Government that is operating in tough times to deliver on the priorities that it sets. That is exactly what this Government is doing and will continue to do.


Patients with Heart Conditions (Treatment)



6. To ask the Deputy First Minister how the Scottish Government will ensure that patients in Scotland with heart conditions receive treatment that is comparable with that for those from the rest of the United Kingdom. (S4F-00881)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Nicola Sturgeon)

NHS Scotland is providing high-quality care services and support for people with heart disease. Only today, in The Herald, the lead clinician Dr Barry Vallance describes cardiology services in Scotland as “second to none”. Just this February, Audit Scotland reported that significant progress had been made in tackling heart disease and developing services. Death rates have dropped by 40 per cent in 10 years, more patients are getting better treatment, and waiting times for treatment have fallen. We published our heart disease action plan in 2009, and we have allocated more than £2 million to support its implementation.

Murdo Fraser

Notwithstanding what the Deputy First Minister had to say, she will be aware of the criticism that Professor Oldroyd of the Golden Jubilee hospital made earlier this week that Scotland is lagging behind the rest of the UK in introducing new drugs and techniques. As she will know, one technique that is of vital benefit to heart attack victims is cardiac rehabilitation, which is an inexpensive treatment with a proven track record in prolonging life. Will she commit to protecting and increasing funding for cardiac rehabilitation for Scottish patients?

Nicola Sturgeon

I absolutely agree with Murdo Fraser: cardiac rehabilitation is incredibly important. I have had the opportunity over a number of years to visit many cardiac rehabilitation groups throughout the country, which is why I am so delighted to tell the chamber that the Information Services Division reported that access to cardiac rehabilitation for heart attack patients has increased from 52 per cent in 2008 to 71 per cent in 2010. That is a good record, which I am sure that my successor as health secretary, Alex Neil, will be determined to continue to deliver on.