Plenary, 23 Jun 2005

Meeting date: Thursday, June 23, 2005

Official Report 790KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-1739)

The Deputy First Minister will not be there, but does he have any idea of the answer?

The agenda for next week's Cabinet will, as always, be agreed between the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. As Nicola Sturgeon said, I will not be there, but I might be allowed to speculate that the Cabinet will discuss progress towards building a better Scotland.

I am sure that all of us in the chamber will want to wish Jim Wallace the very best for the future. [Applause.]

Of course, the reason for the Deputy First Minister's appearance here is that the First Minister's son, like many other Scottish students, is graduating from university today. Does he agree that many of today's graduates face huge debts and that

"the real threat of bankruptcy because of the escalating costs of a university education"?

First, I thank Nicola Sturgeon and everyone in the chamber for their good wishes. As she rightly says, I am deputising for the First Minister, who is attending his son's graduation. I am sure that the Parliament will want to congratulate not only the First Minister's son, but Prince William and more than 45,000 people who will graduate from Scotland's universities. We wish them well as one chapter in their lives closes and another opens.

I cannot accept what Nicola Sturgeon says. During the past six years, this Administration has done a considerable number of things to assist students in meeting the costs that are associated with their university careers. As I demit office, I am very proud of the fact that this Administration has abolished tuition fees for eligible Scottish students who attend Scottish universities and that it has reintroduced student bursaries.

I am a bit surprised that the Deputy First Minister disagrees with the proposition in my question, because I read it straight from a press release that the Liberal Democrats issued in April this year.

I draw the Deputy First Minister's attention to a new figure that was given to me yesterday by Barclays Bank. It puts average student debt in Scotland at £11,548, which is four times higher than in 1999. I remind him that last year there were 1,500 student bankruptcies in Scotland, which is 10 times more than in 1999. I accept that the Scottish Executive has done all the things that the Deputy First Minister says, but in the light of the facts about student debt that I have just cited, does he accept that much more still needs to be done?

Nicola Sturgeon might recall that when, in 1999 and 2000, we introduced the proposals that we subsequently implemented—with regard to both the abolition of tuition fees and other arrangements such as the graduate endowment and the young students bursary—that was done in a way that should have left no student who was eligible in a worse position with regard to debt. Indeed, the proposals would help the majority.

The figures that Nicola Sturgeon quotes are always interesting, but they always merit considerable further analysis because we cannot necessarily take them at face value. I am sure that she will agree that we recently increased the value of the young students bursary. The family income ceiling that determines eligibility for the maximum bursary has gone up from just over £10,000 to £17,500. That will make many thousands of additional students eligible for the full bursary. In addition, we have increased the value of the bursary. No one can accuse this Administration of not taking student finance seriously or say that we are not trying our best to tackle student debt.

I point out to the Deputy First Minister that the figures that I cited on student bankruptcies come from a parliamentary answer that was given by the minister with responsibility for higher education—one Jim Wallace—so I think that they are probably pretty reliable.

If Jim Wallace cannot bring himself to agree with me, does he agree with Nicol Stephen and Mike Rumbles, who are the two contenders for his job? They both say that making higher education more attractive means reducing student debt and getting rid of the graduate endowment. Will the Deputy First Minister, on his last appearance as a minister, rip up the Labour script and join the growing consensus in Scotland that wants to see the back of back-door tuition fees as a first step to tackling student debt?

I was referring to Nicola Sturgeon's quotation from Barclays Bank. The bank is reputable, but the quotation will require attention.

No one disguises the fact that student debt is an important issue. That is why we have taken action. I have no doubt that it will feature as an issue at the next election and I look forward to reading about it in my party's manifesto and in Nicola Sturgeon's party's manifesto, because I have never heard anything serious about how the Scottish National Party would tackle the matter. As one deputy to another, I say that we will take Nicola Sturgeon more seriously when, as Kenny MacAskill and others have recommended recently, she proposes well worked-out plans and does not think that throwing money at everything will resolve problems.

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues will be discussed. (S2F-1740)

The First Minister will meet the Prime Minister at the G8 summit in July.

When the First Minister and the Prime Minister get together, they might reflect on the benefit of having lower business rates in Scotland. Since Mr Wallace, his colleagues and their Labour allies ended the uniform business rate with England five years ago, businesses in Scotland have paid £839 million more in rates than they should have done. That money would have been better invested by the businesses—whether in jobs, plant machinery or research and development—to grow our economy. Does the Deputy First Minister agree that spending all that money on such a programme would have led to a far smarter and more successful Scotland?

As Mr McLetchie knows, the rate poundage is only one part of the equation and the valuation is also important. The combination is of the valuation times the poundage. We have always said that we would take no more in real terms than under the original position, but we have done better than that, because we froze the rate poundage in one year and increased it by less than the inflation rate in other years. This year, we used a lower rate than inflation to help business communities. We have taken several distinctive steps to narrow in real terms the difference between Scotland and England.

Mr McLetchie is wrong to highlight only one part of the equation. If he wishes to fund a reduction in business rates, which is a perfectly reasonable proposition for him to make, we are entitled to ask him a question. All businesses know that if revenue is less, expenditure must be less, so where would the cuts under the Tories fall?

The Deputy First Minister knows perfectly well that all is not rosy in the garden. If it was, why would the Scottish Chambers of Commerce launch a campaign this week to reinstitute the UBR that a Conservative Government introduced and which the Executive scrapped?

If the Deputy First Minister truly believes that there is nothing wrong with the higher level of business rates that has been levied in Scotland in the past five years, why do the contenders to replace him—whether Mr Stephen, the continuity candidate, or Mr Rumbles, the rebel without a clue—both support a reduction? Does he accept that if the Liberal Democrats really believed in lower business rates and held any influence in the Executive, we would have a cut in this parliamentary session and not in a manifesto wish list in 2007?

I hope that Mr McLetchie acknowledges that local business taxation is only part of the overall basket of taxation, which puts Scotland in the lowest quartile of international comparative studies of business taxation. Perhaps it is because we are in the lowest quartile that we have the highest employment rate since current records started and the lowest unemployment rate in my adult lifetime; we have also had continuous above-trend growth for the past two years. On many indicators, the Scottish economy has performed positively. Will not Mr McLetchie join me in welcoming that, rather than joining the SNP in using every opportunity to say that everything in the garden is gloomy?

Two members wish to raise constituency matters.

The Deputy First Minister will be aware of plans in my Stirling constituency to develop an eco village to allow a large number of people both to demonstrate and to see various models of sustainability at the time of the G8 summit. Is he satisfied that all public agencies have contingency plans in place for any eventualities that may arise from the G8 summit and that the financial resources will be available to provide effective measures to ensure that everyone has a safe and successful G8 conference?

As I am sure that Sylvia Jackson is aware, an exceptional amount of advance planning has been done among the various public agencies and, in particular, between local authorities and the police. I am aware of the eco village to which she refers and I have every confidence that Stirling Council and Central Scotland police will have discussions and work out a co-ordinated plan to deal with it.

As the First Minister has indicated, ministers will consider sympathetically requests from public bodies in Scotland to help meet additional costs that may result from the G8 summit, although he has also indicated that there is no blank cheque.

I welcome the fact that Sylvia Jackson puts a positive focus on the summit. The summit will deal with vital issues, such as those related to Africa and climate change, which are of crucial importance. Although it is important that in this Parliament we consider the costs and the security issues, we should not lose sight of what can be achieved at the G8 summit in respect of tackling real issues, not least for those in the world's most deprived countries.

Is the Deputy First Minister aware of the proposal to close the Met Office facility in my constituency at the Bridge of Don? Is he as concerned as I am about the potential impact of the closure, in particular on safety for the offshore industries of oil, gas and fishing? Will he recommend to his successor or to the First Minister that they make the appropriate representations to the Government at Westminster, which has ultimate control of the matter?

Brian Adam is right to mention the fact that the matter is reserved. I hope that people who have a genuine interest in the issue will take the opportunity to make their views known. Having crossed swords with the Met Office when it withdrew its facility from Kirkwall to move much of it to Aberdeen, I have some experience in such battles and no doubt I will cross swords with the Met Office again. I am sure that others will also make their views known. We should take the opportunity that is presented by the consultation to highlight a number of serious and important points.

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Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he intends to discuss. (S2F-1753)

The First Minister has no immediate plans for a formal meeting with the Secretary of State for Scotland.

On behalf of my party, I echo the sentiments that were expressed by Nicola Sturgeon and wish Jim Wallace all the best as he moves to pastures new.

The Deputy First Minister will be aware that there are concerns in certain quarters about the level of the Executive's commitment to addressing the problem of climate change. In that respect, how does he feel about the fact that he is likely to be replaced in the Cabinet by a minister who, in the opinion of Friends of the Earth Scotland, made

"the worst environmental decision ever taken by the Scottish Executive"

when he gave the go-ahead for the M74?

It would be wrong to anticipate before the count which candidate will be my successor. If Robin Harper is referring to the Minister for Transport's decision on the M74, I point out to him that that was a commitment in the last Liberal Democrat manifesto, for which we were given the accolade of having the greenest manifesto of the major parties. People should not complain about us implementing manifesto pledges; I have rather enjoyed implementing them over the past six years.

If the Liberal party wants to live up to its claimed reputation as the greenest party in the Parliament, it must consider its road transport policies, which will result in increased traffic, its air transport policies, which will result in increased air traffic—

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

Mr Gallie, the member is in the middle of his question. I will take your point of order when he has finished.

Mr Gallie will say that I should have asked about "the Executive", of which the Deputy First Minister is part.

How can the Deputy First Minister's party claim to have such a reputation, when the Executive's road and air transport policies undermine everything that it does for the environment on emissions control? Does the Deputy First Minister agree that we must address energy conservation across all sectors by reducing emissions from buildings, transport and industry and that we will make no progress until—

Do you have a question, Mr Harper? I will take Phil Gallie's point of order.

Presiding Officer, my impression—

Answer the question!

Order.

I thought that First Minister's question time was for questions for the First Minister, not questions for the leader of the Liberal party.

Yes. The point has been made.

In response to Robin Harper, I make it clear that the partnership Administration has probably done more to promote the environmental agenda than has any previous Administration with responsibility for Scotland. We have increased substantially the amount of money that is put into public transport and supported the Airdrie to Bathgate railway, the Larkhall to Milngavie railway, the Borders railway and the Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine railway. We have given practical support to millions of people in Scotland to help them to reach our recycling targets. We have invested in renewable energy, not only in wind power but in wave, tidal, biomass and solar power. We have taken practical action to turn the situation round after decades of neglect. I wish that the Green party would come on board and support us in those objectives.

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Cultural Commission Report

To ask the First Minister when the Scottish Executive will respond to the recommendations in the Cultural Commission's report, which was published this morning. (S2F-1748)

Will the Deputy First Minister join me in welcoming members of the Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee of the National Assembly for Wales, who are in the gallery?

I warmly welcome the members of the Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee of the Welsh Assembly. I understand that they met members of the Scottish Parliament's Enterprise and Culture Committee this morning.

Ministers received this morning the final report of the Cultural Commission, which contains a large number of recommendations on an extensive range of issues. We will give the Parliament an opportunity to discuss the proposals after the summer recess. The Executive will consider the Parliament's views in developing its full response, which we hope will be published before the end of the year.

I do not expect the Deputy First Minister to be able to respond to the 124 recommendations of the Cultural Commission only two hours after the report was published, but will he confirm that the Executive will abide by the principle that politicians should not be involved in the day-to-day running of culture and the arts in Scotland? Will he give a commitment in principle to implement the recommendations on rights and responsibilities in relation to culture and the arts for citizens?

Alex Neil says that the report contains 124 recommendations and I am advised by Patricia Ferguson that it is more than 500 pages long, so I commend it to members as a recess read, if not necessarily a holiday read.

Alex Neil raises important issues: politicians are probably not the best people to micromanage the arts on a day-to-day basis; and cultural justice is important. When the First Minister launched his proposals for the Cultural Commission, he clearly articulated that no matter where someone lives in Scotland and no matter what their background, they should have the opportunity to experience at first hand the richness of the arts, which are important in the development of a person's personality to the full. I am sure that my Executive colleagues will keep that principle in mind when they consider the report's recommendations.

Will the Deputy First Minister try to ensure—as far as he can, given his current position—that the Executive considers the recommendations across the board, so that there is joined-up government and the matter is not just left to our excellent Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport? Will he also ensure that we consult widely and listen to organisations of all sizes, rather than just the usual suspects, as they are sometimes described? There must be widespread consultation before we can come up with a sensible approach.

I accept the principle that consultation should involve not only the big players but the smaller players. I also take Donald Gorrie's point about ensuring that the Executive's approach to consultation should go across portfolios; that is a very sound piece of advice.

I am sure that education will have an important role to play; as Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, I know the importance of the arts to job creation and the creative industries, and I know what having a dynamic cultural scene can mean when we try to attract people and companies to work and to set up businesses in Scotland. The cultural scene may not necessarily have been a final determining factor, but many people whom I meet tell me that, when they came to Scotland, they found a thriving cultural scene.

I accept that the issue is not the sole responsibility of Patricia Ferguson. We will engage other colleagues as the Executive makes its recommendations.

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W8 Conference

To ask the First Minister what lessons the Scottish Executive will learn from the eight African women, including Wangari Maathai, the Nobel peace prize winner, and Grace Githaiga, "Africawoman" writer and World Association of Community Broadcasters leader, who are taking part in the W8 conference in Edinburgh today. (S2F-1741)

Today's conference, which is supported by the Scottish Executive, allows women who have made significant contributions to women's equality across Africa to share their experiences and the issues that confront them daily. I wish them a very successful conference and I am sure there will be lessons that we all can learn.

I, too, wish Mr Wallace the very best from the independents in the chamber.

Mobile phones have revolutionised the lives of women in Africa, but the phones work only if they have power. The charging of the batteries is most important. As one of his last tasks, will the Deputy First Minister please ask the First Minister to seek a way of supplying the necessary technology to power the phones?

That is a good and very challenging question. I thank Jean Turner for her kind remarks and I assure her that her points will be brought to the attention of the First Minister.

Just last month, I had the privilege of going to the Shetland part of my old Westminster constituency, to the island of Unst, to inaugurate a hydrogen-powered installation. We spoke about the issues facing remote communities and the specific point was made that, in places such as Africa, hydrogen cells could be used. Many things can be run from such cells using forms of renewable energy. In Unst, that energy comes from wind power—although, unusually, on the day that I went there was no wind. However, solar power and biomass can also charge hydrogen cells. Technologies exist that fit our agenda of promoting renewable energy. Those technologies could have good, effective and practical applications in places such as Africa.

Before I ask my question, I take this opportunity from the Liberal Democrats' benches to record our thanks to Jim Wallace for 13 years of leadership of our party—very enjoyable those years have been for all of us. I also record our thanks for the unique role that he has played in the first years of this Parliament, which he worked so hard to achieve. [Applause.]

What support is the Scottish Executive giving—or what support would it consider giving—to community broadcasting rather than the written word in Africa? I ask because 70 per cent of African women are illiterate.

I thank Margaret Smith and her colleagues—my colleagues—for her kind words.

The member raises an interesting point about community radio. Nothing we do should in any way detract from the important work that has to be done to promote rates of literacy and numeracy. However, I understand Margaret Smith's views on the use of radio. We have some expertise in the techniques of distance learning and we may be able to share that expertise in Africa. There are also a number of infrastructure issues to be addressed.

Occasions such as this have value, in that they throw up ideas. I can certainly say that, alongside the work of the Department for International Development in Whitehall, we will want to see what we can do within our devolved responsibilities. We will want to make effective and practical contributions on these issues.

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Children's Services

To ask the First Minister how the plans to modernise children's services will help Scotland's most vulnerable children. (S2F-1756)

The proposals will benefit all children through improved integrated working, earlier intervention and quicker action. Those who are most vulnerable and who have complex needs will have a clear action plan and will be allocated a lead professional to co-ordinate and monitor action.

Like other members, I add my tribute to the Deputy First Minister and wish him well for the future. Indeed, many members look forward to welcoming him to the back benches.

Does the Deputy First Minister agree that key to supporting our most vulnerable children is the need for all agencies—local authority, police, health or voluntary sector—to join up in a way that better enables us to focus directly on the interests of children and not on those of the agencies and which ensures an effective and integrated range of interventions? Will he assure me that those same principles will underpin the current review of the children's hearings system?

I thank Jackie Baillie for her good wishes. I look forward to joining her and colleagues of all parties on the back benches. My strongly held view is that the purpose of the Parliament, and of back benchers in particular, is to hold the Government to account. After six years of accounting, I am looking forward to two years of holding.

I confirm that the principles that Jackie Baillie mentioned underpin our approach. I am sure that all members agree that nothing is more important to Scotland than our children and young people. We recognise that, far too often, there have been failures in respect of vulnerable children and we are determined to change that. I believe that the proposals that are before us—not least with regard to recognising the importance of agencies working together; ensuring that one professional takes lead responsibility for each child so that there is no question of anyone passing on that responsibility; and ensuring that public services work together in every case in the interests of the child—will make a real contribution to the achievement of those objectives. I look forward to the responses that will be made to the consultation.

From first-hand experience, I can tell the Deputy First Minister of the improvement in quality of life that lies ahead of him.

The consultation paper on the reform of the children's hearings system that was published this week contains a proposal to break the link between local authority boundaries and the organisation of the children's panels. Will the minister assure us that, if the Government decides to pursue that proposal, there will be no diminution in the recruitment of the volunteers who take part in the important work of the children's panels?

The arrangement is an administrative one. I give John Swinney the absolute assurance that there will be no diminution in the recruitment of members of children's panels. Over the years since its establishment, the children's hearings system has been well served by the many people who have given of their time and expertise out of a sense of public service to Scotland's young people. The Executive will do nothing to diminish that.

I was relieved to hear John Swinney say that one finds a life after being a party leader. During the time that I have done this job, I have stood in for three First Ministers. I have seen three leaders of the Opposition. [Interruption.] I am never quite sure who leads the Greens in the Parliament. I have also seen two Scottish Socialist Party leaders. The one person who has been constant and immoveable has been Mr McLetchie—[Applause.]

Order.

As I pass on the mantle of being Scotland's longest-serving party leader, I say to him, "Good luck."

Perhaps it is appropriate that the last question to the Deputy First Minister should be from one of his Liberal Democrat colleagues. In echoing Margaret Smith's tribute, I remind the chamber that Jim Wallace was one of the principal architects of the Scottish constitutional settlement. Indeed, as he was the first Liberal minister in peacetime for more than 70 years, I think that an element of partisanship may be allowed on this occasion. I will miss the cheerful display of his political talents and abilities at question time.

Does the Deputy First Minister agree that by far the best policy with vulnerable children is early intervention, long before they get near the children's hearings system? Does he further agree that schools can be the only positive thing in some children's lives and that some children's futures and life chances can be greatly enhanced by effective school leadership and well-motivated teachers? Will the Scottish Executive ensure that those principles are at the heart of every aspect of the review of children's services and that of the panel system?

Yes, yes, yes and yes again. What we have done in promoting and extending pre-school education is an important part of trying to secure better early intervention for many of Scotland's vulnerable young people.

On behalf of the three Presiding Officers, I offer our best wishes to the Deputy First Minister and our thanks for the courteous way in which he has conducted his ministerial duties in the Parliament over the past six years. I very much look forward to calling Jim Wallace from the back benches. [Applause.]

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—