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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 22 Nov 2006

Meeting date: Wednesday, November 22, 2006


Contents


Question Time


SCOTTISH PARLIAMENTARY CORPORATE BODY


Parliamentary Outreach

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether there has been a lower demand for parliamentary outreach meetings involving communities and projects in schools from some parts of the country than from others. (S2O-11320)

We do not collect details of the requests that are received for outreach events. Our aim is to achieve a broad spread of engagement throughout Scotland.

Rob Gibson:

Given the written answers to Chris Ballance about constituencies in which outreach teams have not had events in the past couple of years, could the SPCB investigate whether there is evidence that some constituency members in the West of Scotland and the Borders do not wish to promote outreach events because they would have to appear on platforms with regional MSPs of a different party?

Mr McNeil:

We should remember that a number of events can take place. They include community outreach, which involves members and parliamentary staff, parliamentary officials engaging with community groups, and MSPs in schools. The breakdown by parliamentary region of all outreach activity—including MSPs in schools—from September 2004, when the outreach team was set up, to November 2006 is: Highlands and Islands, 18 per cent of the total activity; Mid Scotland and Fife, 16 per cent; West of Scotland, 12 per cent; North East Scotland, 12 per cent; South of Scotland, 11 per cent; Glasgow, 11 per cent; and Central Scotland, 7 per cent.

The variance between the highest and lowest figures naturally reflects the fact that it can be easier for people in the central belt to visit Holyrood than it is for those who live in a more distant geographical area. Indeed, we prioritise communities that are further away from the Parliament.

I call Jamie Stone.

Does the member agree that there is much to learn in how allowances can be used to develop MSPs' staff and that it is disadvantageous that our staff, many of whom have been in our service—

We are not on that question yet, Mr Stone; I will try to call you when we reach it.


Members' Allowances Scheme

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether it has considered commissioning an independent review of the members' allowances scheme. (S2O-11321)

Nora Radcliffe (Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body):

On 7 November, the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body received an oral report on the type of issues that would be involved in a review of the allowances scheme.

The corporate body has requested officials to investigate and report on the matters that require to be taken into account in any review of the allowances scheme and to produce an issues paper that would inform the SPCB's legacy paper. When, and by whom, such a review might be conducted will be a matter for the next elected Parliament. The issues paper may provide options on how the review should be conducted, and an independent element might well be part of the process, but that matter ought to be for decision by the new Parliament after the election.

Chris Ballance:

Does the member accept that there is public concern about the issue? Does she agree that there is a need for any review to be conducted by independent investigators and that all results, including the interim findings that are being discussed at the moment, should be made public?

Nora Radcliffe:

I want to correct a misconception that crept into that last question. What is currently being prepared by officers is an issues paper that identifies just the issues and options. No decisions are involved—the work is purely investigatory, through collecting and researching information. It is important to clarify the basis of what we have asked our officers to do.

To return to the original question, an independent inquiry into or review of allowances is certainly an option, but a completely independent body or panel may not be the right answer. A better way forward might be a panel that includes both independent persons of standing and MSPs. MSPs are acutely aware of the demands that are made on them and the adequacy or otherwise of the allowances available in providing a high level of service to constituents and the expected attention to their other parliamentary duties.

However, I return to the fact that nothing has been decided. It will be a matter for the next Parliament to decide.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

I note what Nora Radcliffe says, but will the issues and options paper include consideration of removing the payment of our staff salaries from the members' support allowance? Will the SPCB consider setting up an independent and separate framework, with a proper graded salary scale, so that we do not have to deal with both rent and remuneration for our staff from the scheme?

Nora Radcliffe:

Christine Grahame makes a good point; I am certain that that issue will be laid out for consideration, because it is fundamental to how we employ and pay our staff and to how allowances are set up. The question illustrates the interdependence of all the allowances schemes and the fact that we need a radical, thorough and informed review that is given time to be properly debated.

Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab):

Will the SPCB acknowledge in its legacy paper that constituency case work is a vital and substantial component of the work of MSPs and seek to explore how appropriate staff and other resources can be made available to MSPs to enable them to undertake that task? In so doing, will it reflect on the experience that we have gained over eight years and consider the relative workloads of constituency and regional list members and MPs, who have considerably greater staff and other resources to enable them to provide a service to their constituents?

Mrs Deacon makes excellent points, all of which I am sure will be taken on board. What more can I say? I totally agree with everything that she said.

Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (Sol):

There have been complaints about the operation of the Edinburgh accommodation allowance for five years. Given that, does the member agree that the fact that there will not be a report before the end of this session that will stop the unacceptable practice of members of this Parliament being able to profit personally from a public allowances scheme will do nothing to allay the genuine public concern that exists on that issue alone and will help drag down the Parliament as a whole? Will she give us an assurance that in the six months that we have left in this session, a report will be produced to take the personal profit element out of the allowances scheme before the next session so that no member sitting in the Parliament can profit personally from the use of an allowances scheme that was supposed to make up for expenses, not to allow MSPs to build up a property portfolio?

Nora Radcliffe:

The member slightly misrepresents the facts of the case. None of the capital that is required to purchase a property is provided from the public purse. The interest on the mortgage is reimbursed. In point of fact, that is a cost-effective way of reimbursing members who live too far from Edinburgh to commute daily. There will not be a report before the end of the session. The questions that have been asked about the Edinburgh accommodation allowance have been answered.

I reiterate that the question of allowances is complex. Susan Deacon was right to say that we have a number of years of experience to draw on to perhaps draw up a better scheme of allowances. That should be considered across the piece, because lots of interdependent issues have to be explored thoroughly. It would be folly to consider one such issue in isolation; we should have a comprehensive look at the whole system.

Alex Fergusson (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (Con):

Is Mrs Radcliffe aware that, given that I am a constituency member, my staff cannot travel to Dumfries, which is only a mile outside my constituency—and indeed contains the main offices of the local authority and all other agencies—unless the expense of the journey is taken off my MSA? If I were a regional member, my staff could travel from Stranraer to North Berwick and claim the expenses from the staff travel allowance. Disregarding Tommy Sheridan's remarks, surely that anomaly justifies our having a serious, in-depth and urgent review of all allowances in time for the next Parliament to adopt its findings, rather than waiting for the next Parliament to initiate and determine such a review.

Nora Radcliffe:

The member raises good points. The anomalies were included in the first allowances scheme because we did not have the experience of a working Parliament and we did not know how constituencies and regions would work out. We have a lot of experience to draw on to put together a better allowances scheme that will enable us to deliver more easily the service that our constituents require.

We are going about things in the right way, because it will be for the new Parliament to make the decisions. The research on the issues and possible options that the corporate body has asked officers to draw together is useful preparatory work, which will enable the new Parliament to take forward the scheme after the next election. It is right that we allow proper time for that and that we ensure that the new, incoming Parliament makes its decisions on those complex, interrelated matters on the basis of the information that has been collected.


Scottish Public Services Ombudsman

3. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what information it holds on the average time taken between the Scottish public services ombudsman deciding to investigate a case and the publication of the final report and, if it does not hold such information, what plans it has to introduce a procedure to monitor this issue. (S2O-11324)

John Scott (Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body):

We do not hold the information that Mr Neil seeks. I hope, however, that Mr Neil will be interested to know that, although there is no procedure in place for monitoring the processes in the ombudsman's office, when I gave evidence to the Finance Committee last week, I mentioned that, as part of the budget scrutiny exercise, we had asked questions about the measure of efficiency in the ombudsman's office and that the ombudsman had agreed to discuss that with us. Those discussions will take place shortly. As part of those discussions, we will request regular information from the ombudsman on performance with regard to reducing the backlog and we intend to monitor that on a monthly basis.

As Mr Neil might be aware, the SPCB has been invited by the Finance Committee to report to it on its findings in relation to the commissioners' and ombudsman's working practices, and we anticipate doing so by March next year.

Alex Neil:

I draw Mr Scott's attention to the concerns of many members about the time that it takes to get reports from the ombudsman. I am dealing with one case in which it has taken 11 months for a decision to be made on whether to investigate the issue at all. I am not sure whether the issue is to do with resources, efficiency or some other matter. However, I emphasise that, for those people who want the ombudsman to resolve an issue, the problem is of major concern. I ask that the member and the SPCB do everything they can to address the issue as a matter of urgency.

John Scott:

I agree that this is a matter of concern for members and the SPCB. We know that there is a backlog. However, I should say that, as part of the latest budget round for 2007-08, we agreed a budget of 7.3 per cent over this year's approved budget, which will enable the ombudsman to employ an additional seven staff to deal with complaints and inquiries. As Mr Neil's arithmetic is nimble, he will know that that is an increase in staff of almost 20 per cent. However, the ombudsman has had a 49 per cent increase in complaints and a 60 per cent increase in inquiries. We hope that the increase in staff will enable the ombudsman to deal with the claims more quickly, which will allay members' fears in that regard.


Holyrood Building Project (Loss Recovery)

4. Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what sums it will seek to recover in legal claims associated with the Holyrood building project, which breaches of contract are involved in such actions and whether it will seek to recover from the construction managers the losses incurred as a result of the trades package that was awarded to Flour City Architectural Metals (UK) Ltd. (S2O-11317)

Mr Kenny MacAskill (Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body):

The SPCB is well aware of Mr Ewing's great interest and concerns. Indeed, Mr Ewing asked a question on this matter at the last SPCB question time on 10 May. As indicated then, the SPCB agreed to meet Mr Ewing. It duly did so. I can assure members that the SPCB has taken note of Mr Ewing's submissions on these matters.

Fergus Ewing:

As the chamber knows, I have pursued this matter for five years. The large folder that I have with me is the second file of 2006 on the topic.

Why was a contract worth £7 million awarded to a company that had assets of £2, no United Kingdom directors, no track record, no work experience, no Scottish employees and no bank account in Scotland? Is the SPCB concerned that the fact that five years have elapsed might mean that any legal claim based on a breach of the general duty set out in the contract applicable by Bovis Construction has now prescribed?

Finally, is the matter not of sufficient seriousness that the Presiding Officer should now make a detailed statement to explain what on earth the SPCB is doing in respect of the fiasco relating to the engagement of this contract and the selection as a contractor of Flour City, a company that, quite patently, was never going to be able to perform the work?

Could you leave some time for the answer, Mr Ewing?

Finally, I stress that the decision has cost the taxpayer £4 million.

I stress that that was your second "Finally".

Mr MacAskill:

Mr Ewing raises several issues.

On the quinquennium of prescription, the corporate body and the lawyers have looked at that matter. We are satisfied that the position of the Parliament and of the taxpayer is protected.

On whether we will make a statement, we are not prepared to do that at this time. As members will recognise, completion of the final phases of such a project is not straightforward and takes time. I appreciate the member's frustration, but the corporate body is still going through the final counts, which is a convoluted and complicated process. Any announcement at present would be premature as it is difficult to isolate Flour City from the overall package that we are addressing.

I am afraid that that concludes questions to the corporate body.