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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, March 18, 2010


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-2280)

Iain Gray

Not for the first time, the First Minister’s memory lets him down. We voted against the budget for this year because it did not have these apprenticeship places in it. When the Government put the apprenticeship places in, we voted for it. The truth is that if it had not been for us, these apprenticeship places would not have been in the budget.

There was good news for Britain as a whole yesterday, when unemployment went down by 33,000, but it was bad news for Scotland, where unemployment went up by 16,000. Scotland is going backwards under Alex Salmond. What is his excuse?

The First Minister

If I can first correct Iain Gray’s memory, Labour voted against the budget despite the apprenticeship places being on offer—given Mr Swinney’s constructive proposals. Then, when it realised the great mistake that it had made and that it had defeated the budget by accident, it scrambled to try to redo the thing the following week. It was not Mr Gray’s outstanding moment in parliamentary politics.

It is vital that we continue to support the apprenticeship schemes, because they make a huge difference to the lives of young people. Yesterday, I met a youngster called Ryan McDonald, from Tranent, which makes him one of Iain Gray’s own constituents—indeed, it makes him a constituent of Anne Moffat, if I am allowed to mention that name in Iain Gray’s company. Ryan McDonald was made redundant last year. He then went to college and, just before Christmas, under the adopt an apprentice scheme, the Edinburgh Construction Group was able to continue his apprenticeship. That shows in real and human terms the effectiveness of the schemes that the entire Parliament adopted.

As far as the economic situation that we face is concerned, there is recovery in the Scottish economy, but it is extremely fragile. Therefore, is it not time for us to unite as a Parliament to demand that there be no cuts in public spending in Scotland next year, to demand the accelerated capital spending that Iain Gray supported in the pre-budget report—before he was snubbed by Alistair Darling—and to demand a reflationary package to tackle recession? It is vital that recovery is not choked off by a lack of public investment.

Iain Gray

There is a recovery in Britain, where unemployment is falling, but across all four key employment measures, Scotland is underperforming in comparison with the United Kingdom as a whole. Economic output in Scotland is falling faster than it is in the UK as a whole—that has not happened since world war two. Two thirds of all the jobs that have been lost in the whole of the UK over the past few months have been lost right here in Scotland. Something is going wrong.

The First Minister takes the credit for the number of apprentices. Will he take the responsibility for unemployment going up in Scotland while it goes down in the country as a whole?

The First Minister

Iain Gray claims that Scottish unemployment is higher than elsewhere in Europe. In the ILO figures, Scottish unemployment is 7.6 per cent, the European average is 9 per cent, the UK average is 7.8 per cent and the American figure is 10 per cent. Although 7.6 per cent is far too high, does Iain Gray really not know that there is an international recession—[Interruption.]

Order.

Iain Gray

While we are on celebrations, yesterday saw 20,000 new apprenticeship places achieved. Labour fought hard to get those apprenticeship places in the budget and we are delighted to see 20,000 youngsters getting that start in life. However, Michael Levack of the Scottish Building Federation says that the number of apprentices in training is about to drop by half. Will the First Minister promise us that he will not let that happen?

The First Minister

Let us just remember that it is a point of fact that unemployment in Scotland is lower than the UK average, as it has been in every month of this Administration. Iain Gray asks about taking responsibility, but I have been doing a little bit of research. Unemployment is lower in Scotland than it is in the UK as a whole, employment is higher in Scotland than it is in the UK as a whole and economic activity rates are higher in Scotland than they are in the UK as a whole.

However, that was not always the case. Just a few years ago, in 2002-03, Iain Gray was the Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning. In every month of his term of office—which, admittedly, was limited—unemployment in Scotland was higher, not lower, than it was in the UK. Did Iain Gray accept responsibility for that, or does he want to give us the credit for having lower unemployment than the UK and, indeed, most of western Europe and America? Does he accept that we should be looking at next year’s budget and asking why the UK is the only major economy that has no stimulus package planned for next year? Does he accept that we should unite as a Parliament to ensure that Westminster does not choke off the Scottish recovery?

Iain Gray

When I was enterprise minister, Scotland had the highest employment rate in Europe. Scotland’s employment rate may still be marginally higher than the UK’s, but the figures for this month and last month show that the UK is catching up on us, and fast.

Our potential is huge. Scotland should be leading, not lagging. What has happened? What has happened is the Salmond slump. He talks about fiscal stimulus, but he is the one who cancelled rail links in Edinburgh and Glasgow, cancelling thousands of jobs. His Scottish Futures Trust has built nothing and has destroyed 30,000 jobs. His housing budget cuts will cost even more construction jobs. He got rid of 1,000 assistants from our classrooms. This week, another 600 teaching jobs have gone—almost 3,000 teachers are on the dole.

Alex Salmond never tires of telling us that facts are chiels that winna ding. The fact is that Scotland is going backwards under him. Does he have any ideas or does he just have more excuses?

The First Minister

Let me repeat: in every single year of this Administration, unemployment in Scotland has been lower than the UK average.

I remind Iain Gray of what he seems to have forgotten because, unfortunately for him, I have brought the figures along with me. In every single month from May 2002 to May 2003, when he was Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning, International Labour Organization unemployment rates in Scotland were higher than the UK average. [Interruption.]

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

I have engagements to take forward the Government’s programme for Scotland. Later today I will announce an extra bank holiday in Scotland on 5 June 2012 to mark the Queen’s diamond jubilee celebrations. The people of Scotland have a special affection for Her Majesty the Queen and I am sure that the chamber will welcome the opportunity to join in the celebrations being planned to mark Her Majesty’s diamond jubilee.

The First Minister

I am delighted that Iain Gray is jointly celebrating the hugely substantial achievement of 19,991 modern apprenticeships having started in this financial year. That exceeds the target of 18,500 and the year is not over, so I suspect that we will get beyond the 20,000 mark. However, I have to say that I am somewhat puzzled. My memory is that Labour voted against the budget last year and then this year voted against it again, when even more apprenticeship places were proposed. Be that as it may, I am confident about the uptake of the apprenticeship positions. Iain Gray will remember that, to enable us to do even more, in January an additional £4 million was allocated to a new scheme: the apprenticeships grant scheme. That scheme opened on 11 January and was fully subscribed by 4 February, giving 4,000 additional apprenticeship places. That is very recent information, which suggests to me and, I hope, the chamber that these incentives to giving our young people a chance in society are working and will continue to work.

Order.

The First Minister

—that the UK economy led the world into and that the UK economy is now lagging behind the rest of the world in recovery? The reason for that is that in the UK, alone among all the developed economies, the Chancellor of the Exchequer plans no fiscal stimulus for next year. In the same way, he cut the Scottish budget by £500 million.

The construction industry in Scotland ain’t suffering from public sector contracts being lost; it is suffering from the private sector recession that has been induced by the Brown bust and the Darling downturn. Sooner rather than later, Iain Gray, as the Labour leader in the Scottish Parliament, will have to accept responsibility for the economic decisions made by Westminster. That is why we should unite as a Parliament to demand a budget that expands the Scottish economy as opposed to one that chokes off Scottish recovery.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S3F-2281)

Annabel Goldie

Presiding Officer,

“Members of Parliament have to do their best for their constituents. They should do it without fear or favour”.—[Official Report, 11 February 2010; c 23793.]

Those fine words were uttered by the First Minister in this Parliament just last month. Last week, the business of this Parliament was disrupted by strike action that resulted in the cancellation of committee business, and another strike is planned for next Wednesday, when the Parliament will sit to debate Scottish Government business. Does the First Minister agree that if MSPs are to do their duty and act “without fear or favour” in this Parliament they should cross any picket line outside the Parliament and get on with what we have been elected and are paid to do?

The First Minister

As Annabel Goldie should know, I am not responsible for the business of the Parliament. However, the business of Government will continue next week, and I will discharge the business of Government as it is my responsibility to do.

Annabel Goldie should remember that the Scottish Government is not a party in the Public and Commercial Services Union dispute; its dispute is with the United Kingdom Government over redundancy payments and agreements. At the moment, this Government has a no compulsory redundancy policy in operation.

As for giving advice to other MSPs, I accept that when our own staff are involved people will want to behave sensitively. That is presumably why Margaret Mitchell, convener of the Equal Opportunities Committee, and Bill Aitken, convener of the Justice Committee, decided not to have their meetings a week past Tuesday.

The First Minister

As I said in my first answer, the business of Government will be discharged. That is my responsibility, as it was a week past Tuesday when business was indeed discharged.

I have to say, though, that I am totally puzzled by the direction of Annabel Goldie’s question. She is now asking me to give advice to MSPs that she was quite clearly unwilling to give to Margaret Mitchell and Bill Aitken, who are committee conveners. Does she not see something of an ambivalence in her position, as her own chairmen of parliamentary committees decided not to hold their meetings? Did they not speak to Annabel Goldie beforehand? Was it something that they did of their own volition? Before Labour members wonder whether it is just Tory ambivalence to which I refer, I noted in the papers that John Park crossed the picket line to go to the Parliamentary Bureau’s meeting. No doubt John Park felt that he had to behave in a sensitive manner, but needed to discharge the business of the bureau.









I believe that the business of Government has to be discharged and that it will be discharged. I would not criticise MSPs for behaving sensitively towards staff. However, if we want to get the dispute settled, we could do with a little less humbug and politicking and a bit more common sense.

To save Mr Park’s blushes, it was Paul Martin who attended the Parliamentary Bureau.

Members: Oh!

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future.

Annabel Goldie

No one disputes that trade union members have the right to engage in lawful strike action. However, MSPs who are elected and paid for by the public have a primary and absolute duty to represent the interests of all their constituents in this Parliament, and from that we must not be diverted. It will be business as usual for my party if the strike proceeds. Will the First Minister confirm that he will instruct his ministers and MSPs—all of them—to cross the picket line and come to work?

Order—and I am sorry if I have caused Paul Martin any blushes.


Cabinet (Meetings)

I gladly apologise to John Park—and to Paul Martin—for highlighting the difficulty that he may or may not have with his fellow MSPs.

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Tavish Scott

On the economy and Scottish jobs, the First Minister probably finds it as ridiculous as I do that Labour can gloat that one part of the United Kingdom is doing better than another, when the whole of the UK is doing worse than the whole of the rest of Europe—except Greece.

The Prime Minister said in the House of Commons yesterday that unemployment is falling, whereas it has gone up by 16,000 in Scotland. What explanation does the First Minister have for the continuing rise in the number of Scots out of work?

The First Minister

I do not say this to mitigate in any way the 7.6 per cent International Labour Organization figure, but in February we had our first reduction in the claimant count in Scotland for two years. We should mention that, as it is an indication that the labour market is turning. It was an incredibly small reduction, however—it is a faltering and very sensitive recovery.

Like Tavish Scott, I believe that those who are responsible for economic policy in the United Kingdom should take responsibility not just for the Brown boom but for the Brown bust. That is obvious. With the UK budget happening next week, surely the Parliament should be uniting right now to ensure that there is fiscal stimulus in the United Kingdom economy next year and that there are no cuts to next year’s Scottish budget—which we have already voted on—at either national or local level. If we do not get assurances on that—if those things are not done—that sensitive, faltering recovery will be in danger of being choked off before it can accelerate into a true, sustained recovery.

Tavish Scott

Unlike the rest of us, Mr Salmond will be able to attend the presentation of the budget in Westminster next week, and it will be interesting to see whether he does.

There are 67,000 more people out of work in Scotland this year than there were last year. Unemployment here has increased twice as fast as in the rest of the UK. Scottish retail had its worst month for more than 10 years. Yesterday’s Scottish construction monitor shows that more builders expect to cut staff than expect to recruit them. People do not understand the fact that ministers hailed a recovery in December, nor the fact that the First Minister told me in January that he had “a degree of satisfaction”. He has said again this afternoon that there is recovery.

The First Minister invariably mentions his economic recovery plan, which was described by Mackay Consultants just this month as

“a mixture of pseudo-academic jargon and a long term wish list”.

Does the First Minister have anything else to offer? When does he think unemployment in Scotland will stop going up?

The First Minister

In February, the claimant count went down for the first time in two years—that is a fact. As I have said before, the recovery in Scotland is sensitive—it is not a strong recovery. The economy is on the turn, as we know from the indications, from expectations surveys and from the purchasing managers index. However, that does not necessarily mean that the economy can withstand cuts in public spending next year. That is why Tavish Scott is on extremely loose ground. The Liberal Democrats, by their own admission, were previously suggesting savage cuts in public spending. At their conference last week, we found out that that policy is no longer operational and that the Liberal Democrats are in fact going to expand public spending.

What has this got to do with the question?



Tavish Scott

The First Minister’s letter to my colleague Vince Cable states:

“The public sector must now prepare for several years of fiscal austerity”.

Those are the First Minister’s own words. Would the First Minister like to lay out what that fiscal austerity will be?

The First Minister

I was rather pleased with the letter from Vince Cable, because it told me that he was not planning to cut public spending in Scotland next year. However, in a speech to the Institute for Public Policy Research this week, Nick Clegg reversed that and outlined savage cuts in public spending.

Tavish Scott asked me what I would cut in public spending. I would cut £5 billion from the identity cards budget and £100 billion for the unnecessary Trident missiles system. If we can agree on that, perhaps we can obviate the desire of the Liberal Democrats to make savage cuts in the Scottish budget while they simultaneously call for increased expenditure on individual items of public spending in Scotland.



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-2282)

The First Minister

In a speech this week, Nick Clegg talked about reducing public spending by £60 billion, which would mean a £6 billion or so reduction in Scottish public spending.

The relevance of that—which Mike Rumbles does not seem to realise—is pretty obvious. How can we have a recovery in the Scottish economy when some parties, such as the Tories, are suggesting that we should rip up next year’s budget and reduce it, other parties, such as the Labour Party, will not accept their responsibility for the mess that we are in at the present moment and other parties, such as the Liberal Democrats, simultaneously call for increases in public spending across a range of subjects while their party leader is plotting the most massive reduction in public spending of any London-based party?


Youth Commission on Alcohol (Report)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

I fully agree with Michael Matheson on the need to recognise that young people have an important role in finding solutions to the problems of alcohol misuse. As such, the Minister for Public Health and Sport asked Young Scot to establish the youth commission on alcohol at the end of 2008.

We welcome the youth commission’s approach and the energy and enthusiasm that it has brought to the wider alcohol debate—unlike the Opposition parties in the Parliament. We will give the youth commission’s report careful consideration and we encourage the rest of the Parliament to do so as well. The Minister for Public Health and Sport has stated that she will write to each of the commissioners by the summer to set out the Scottish Government’s response.

Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)

The youth commission on alcohol’s excellent report was discussed at yesterday’s meeting of the cross-party group on drugs and alcohol, where it emerged that the central theme is that young people want a culture change in relation to drinking in Scotland. Will the First Minister pledge his Government to ensure that at least two young persons are represented on every local licensing forum? Will he also ensure, as requested by the youth commission, that his Cabinet Secretary for Justice has discussions with the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland about ensuring full and rigorous enforcement of the current legislation?



4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to the report produced by the youth commission on alcohol. (S3F-2288)

Michael Matheson

The commission’s report makes some 38 recommendations, a number of which focus on providing leisure activities for young people to offer a genuine alternative to drinking. Does the First Minister agree that providing diversionary activities for Scotland’s young people has a vital part to play in challenging our binge-drinking culture? Will he inform the Parliament what action the Scottish Government is taking on that?

The First Minister

I very much agree that diversionary activities have a significant role to play. Since June 2007, as members will know, there has been a £13 million investment in the cashback for communities scheme. Five organisations in the Falkirk area received funding of just under £22,000 in the most recent round of cashback for communities awards that were announced in December last year. Those organisations range from the boys brigade to the youth learning support that is provided by Falkirk Council. Through cashback and other resources, more than £14,000 is being spent by the Scottish Football Association to develop football in the Falkirk area. Those are some examples of how the cashback for communities scheme is providing valuable alternatives in Michael Matheson’s constituency. Those are certainly diversionary activities, but they are also very useful activities in their own right that are being funded by that initiative.

The First Minister

I am perfectly happy to take on board those two aspects. On the second question, I will most certainly do that. On the first question, we will give consideration to that point and to all the points that the young people have made.









In that spirit, I hope that Richard Simpson will now have an epiphany on the need for minimum pricing. Like me, he will have seen Labour MP after Labour MP call for minimum pricing in England, where there is less of a problem, while Labour MSP after Labour MSP refuses to accept the reality of their party’s role in our approach to rebalancing our relationship with alcohol in Scotland.

Furthermore, I know that Richard Simpson will join me in acknowledging the belated but nonetheless welcome correction from Whyte & Mackay about the impact on jobs in the whisky industry of the proposals that are under discussion. Rational debate on the issue is absolutely necessary, just as it is necessary for no party in this chamber to reject for political reasons a minimum pricing proposal that must be part of our overall solution to rebalancing this country’s relationship with drink.


Class Sizes (Maths and English)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

We support the objective of having smaller classes in S1 and S2 maths and English. However, I think that Des McNulty has had an unexpected outbreak of amnesia on the issue. The introduction of the class size maximum of 20 was a manifesto commitment of the previous Administration; yet, by April 2007, it had been changed to having an average class size of 20 for S1 and S2. The Labour Administration also failed to place that target on a statutory basis. That is why the Scottish Government is holding a full review of all the various class size maxima, to sort out the difficulties that the Labour Administration left behind. As Des McNulty knows, we are also taking action to address class sizes in primary 1 and will tomorrow launch a consultation on legislation to reduce the legal maximum for P1 to 25 from the level of 30 that we inherited from the previous Administration.

It is greatly to be regretted that Des McNulty did not listen to my answer to his first question before he ploughed ahead.

Order.

He has not answered the question.

Order, order.



5. To ask the First Minister how many local authorities are meeting maximum class size guidelines of 20 at secondary 1 and secondary 2 in the key subjects of maths and English. (S3F-2297)

The previous Administration started out with a target of a maximum class size of 20—

Are you speaking to Lord Foulkes or to me, Presiding Officer?

Des McNulty

It is disappointing that despite having had time to research the matter, the First Minister does not know how many local authorities are meeting that important target. Can he confirm that Scottish National Party-controlled Renfrewshire Council and SNP-controlled East Ayrshire Council are two of the local authorities that are not meeting the target? Will he give the chamber an undertaking to find out how many more local authorities are disregarding the solid commitment that was given prior to May 2007? Can he tell us why class size reductions in English and maths at S1 and S2 are being set aside in order to achieve a 20 per cent reduction in class sizes at primary 1?

Answer the question.

Des McNulty should try to remember what target the previous Administration set.

I was asking for order from George Foulkes, First Minister. Please continue.

The First Minister

With Lord Foulkes’s gracious permission, I point out to Des McNulty, who is sitting beside him, that the target started out as a maximum but, in 2007, was changed—admittedly, when he was a back bencher—to an average of 20 in S1 and S2. That is an entirely different target.

I have carried out research on pupil teacher ratios in all the councils in Scotland and can give Des McNulty the figures for the number of pupils per teacher in primary schools. The SNP-led councils have an average of 15.5; the Conservative-led councils have an average of 15.8; the Scottish Liberal Democrat-led councils have an average of 16; and the Labour-led councils have an average of 16.3. No doubt, now that he understands the targets that were set by the previous Administration, Des McNulty will join me and the rest of the chamber in calling on all Labour councils with those high pupil teacher ratios to do better than they have done before.


Violent Offenders (Assessment)

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)



6. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to ensure that the assessment and management of violent offenders carried out by criminal justice social work services is robust and consistent across Scotland. (S3F-2286)

By your non-point of order, you have already done that.

Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Further to that non-point of order, Presiding Officer, could you inform me—a member of the Justice Committee—how we can correct the record with regard to Bill Aitken’s statement that SNP members, myself included, were part of the problem and made it impossible to hold a meeting of the Justice Committee a week past Tuesday? At the very least, Mr Aitken, Mr Brown—I believe—and myself were willing and able to attend the meeting and, as far as I understand it, the quorum is three.

Once again—

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Scottish Government is working closely with partners to ensure the consistent assessment and management of violent offenders. The report of the multi-agency inspection of high-risk offenders, which was published last year, raised issues that the Scottish Government is committed to addressing, and we have accepted all 19 recommendations in the report.

The report recommended that the first step should be to strengthen current practice. That is why we are introducing a new, more consistent approach to risk assessment and management of offenders and more effective information sharing, and will publish new national standards for criminal justice social work later this year.

The First Minister

As I said to Robert Brown, the multi-agency inspection team, which was made up of SWIA, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and HM inspectorate of prisons, reviewed in detail the handling of 62 offenders who were released between July 2006 and December 2007. Obviously, the bulk of the cases involved offenders who were released under the previous Administration. However, that does not obviate the fact that the 19 recommendations that were made as part of that detailed assessment should be carried into practice. That is what we have undertaken to do and is what we will do.

Given that Scotland has the lowest level of recorded crime for a generation and the highest number of police officers on our streets in Scottish history, we can move forward on criminal justice knowing that serious violent offenders will be properly assessed under the new procedures, and the Scottish public can be assured that they are safer than ever before as a result of the investment in law and order.

Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The First Minister might have inadvertently misled the chamber in answer to a question from Annabel Goldie concerning the cancellation of committee meetings. It is the case that the Justice Committee was cancelled, which was done on the basis that I could not guarantee a quorum for the meeting. To some extent, Scottish National Party members of the committee were responsible for that, as they could not guarantee that they would be present. In the circumstances, will you give the First Minister the opportunity to clarify the situation and to accept that his party was partly responsible?

No, these are not points of order. You have got the points on the record. I suggest that we suspend until 2.15.

12:33 Meeting suspended until 14:15.

14:15 On resuming—

Robert Brown

The issue relates to about 2,000 people who were released from prison on a statutory order or licence after serving sentences usually of four years or more for serious violent crime. The First Minister might be aware that the recent Social Work Inspection Agency report found that two thirds of the plans for serious violent offenders had no focus on risk management and that some social work departments did not know whether their work with offenders was effective. The report spoke about uneven and sometimes weak practice in assessment of risk. Does the First Minister agree that the report is surprising and highly worrying? In the light of the recommendations or findings, which were published only last week, will he review his Government’s plan of action to ensure that they are dealt with urgently?